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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 2, 2017 23:29:24 GMT
I disagree partially. I think Hakai only works on mortals and lower deities like regular Kais (King Kai, West Kai, South Kai, East Kai, & Grand Kai). Higher level deities like Supreme Kais, GoDs, Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, & Zen-Oh are immune to Hakai. Why I think Supreme Kais are immune is because if they weren't Beerus could've Hakai'd Old Kai instead of sealing him in the Z Sword. Now you may argue that he did it to avoid dying himself, but at that point in history there should've been 5 Supreme Kais still, so killing/erasing one of them wouldn't be enough to kill Beerus too. I don't think he would've been solely satisfied with killing Old Kai, because to a Kaioshin death doesn't really even matter since they already live in Other World, so he sealed him away to punish him because killing wouldn't be satisfactory and Hakai wouldn't work. GoDs are immune for obvious reasons because other wise disputes between them wouldn't need to require fighting and almost destroying the whole Universe or holding contests of various kinds. As for Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, and Zen-Oh, they are even higher than the Supreme Kais and GoDs, so that just makes sense that they'd be immune. Now when it comes to resisting Hakai, if it's done with Destruction Energy lent to a mortal or non-GoD deity, I know it can be resisted and stopped because Frieza stopped and then absorbed it to use against Goku, who struggled to resist and either would've succumb or barely overcome it if Beerus hadn't absorbed it. As for a full-powered Hakai, I don't think any mortal or lower level deity can resist it or overcome it. Now onto Erase, I think the only ones that could potentially be immune are Zen-Oh and maybe just maybe his attendants as well as they seem like they may be adults from whatever race Zen-Oh comes from if there indeed are others of his species in existence. Now I imagine Zen-Oh being the Omni-King could very well just turn any immunity he has to his own Erase technique off if he felt like committing suicide. Then how the hell Goku managed to partially Hakai Zamasu in the manga? Going by Kor's logic, technically Zamasu wasn't a Supreme Kai yet, not even a deity, just an apprentice. We know this since Gowasu kept rambling on about how "1 hour and they'll defuse!" Otherwise, see, that was what I was thinking as well, if a mortal could do an imperfect version of the Hakai technique and could do damage to a powerful Space warping entity, what could a perfected Hakai accomplish? Has to be something even greater right? That's why I thought (in the memepost thread) Beerus could theoretically Hakai Zeno if Zeno asked Beerus (or any GoDs) to Hakai him... willingly... guard down and all.
Edit: Posted waaay after Kor answered. Fff- Edit 2: Then how the hell Goku managed to partially Hakai Zamasu in the manga? I haven't yet read that far in the manga as I kinda stopped during the Frost vs Vegeta fight and while I have wanted to pick it up after hearing how different the Goku Black Saga was depicted, I still haven't gotten around to it. Regardless I speculate Goku's Hakai didn't work fully because Goku wasn't a GoD and therefore doesn't have the true Destruction Energy to power the move properly. If they provided a different canonical explanation then whatever that is works too, but if they didn't explain it there definitively (guesses don't count in my opinion) then I'd stick with that reasoning I came up with. You could've informed us whether we're supposed to discuss based on the Anime, the Manga, or Both but that you didn't catch up instead of leading us into a wild goose chase about something that is or isn't confirmed bc you haven't seen the manga's interpretation yet. Edit 3: You seem to be under the impression that Zamasu was a legitimate Supreme Kai. He was never granted that title and upgraded form his station of North Kai as he never graduated from his training under Gowasu. Being the lower deity that he was, the Hakai worked partially. I haven't yet read that far in the manga as I kinda stopped during the Frost vs Vegeta fight and while I have wanted to pick it up after hearing how different the Goku Black Saga was depicted, I still haven't gotten around to it. Regardless I speculate Goku's Hakai didn't work fully because Goku wasn't a GoD and therefore doesn't have the true Destruction Energy to power the move properly. If they provided a different canonical explanation then whatever that is works too, but if they didn't explain it there definitively (guesses don't count in my opinion) then I'd stick with that reasoning I came up with. 2-Why even bother to speculate anything out of your nowhere when you yourself have already admitted to not reading it? As expected this speculation is completely off, mainly because there is nothing to speculate in the first place. Hakai didn't work on Merged Zamasu only because he took Mai as hostage through one of his "Janemba portals", making Goku stop at once to avoid hurting her. This Hakai technique was totally going to erase him, immortality or not. Goku even had a monologue saying that he was going to borrow Beerus' most dangerous technique before doing it. Actually Conqueror Geng, I have a question (not in a smartass way, just in a curious way since you brought it up in the bold), how could Goku's Hakai succeed in killing Zamasu if Manga!Beerus said in Chapter 26 Page 38 this image he said he can't destroy immortals? How can a GoD's version of Destruction fail to destroy something a mortal could? Unless of course Goku's Hakai was never meant to kill off Zamasu, with or without Mai's "intervention." Image I was blabbing on about.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2017 4:10:57 GMT
So, would Zamasu have spawned again after being "Hakai'd"?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 3, 2017 4:26:11 GMT
It's hard to tell, he had one scene with his chest blasted through from Blue Goku's Kamehameha (Before Vegito fusion, Chapter 23 page 11), then Vegito made Fused Zamasu not-all-right (Read: Bad joke and lost right side) in the same chapter page 33. Hands cut off but that's very minor... And when Goku did Hakai, Zamasu's skin looked like it turned to sand, but it never even got to halfway, nearly 45 percent destroyed and 55 percent still survived.
If I had to warrant a guess, since at that point the Potaras didn't fuck up with the defusion, at least to the reader and the character's knowledge, then either a single cell would've survived and reformed into Fused Zamasu, just like he did when Vegeta Gamma burst shot him near the end, or he'd (attempt to) split back to his components like DBM's Gotenks upon Carbonite exposure.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2017 4:53:33 GMT
It's hard to tell, he had one scene with his chest blasted through from Blue Goku's Kamehameha (Before Vegito fusion, Chapter 23 page 11), then Vegito made Fused Zamasu not-all-right (Read: Bad joke and lost right side) in the same chapter page 33. Hands cut off but that's very minor... And when Goku did Hakai, Zamasu's skin looked like it turned to sand, but it never even got to halfway, nearly 45 percent destroyed and 55 percent still survived. If I had to warrant a guess, since at that point the Potaras didn't fuck up with the defusion, at least to the reader and the character's knowledge, then either a single cell would've survived and reformed into Fused Zamasu, just like he did when Vegeta Gamma burst shot him near the end, or he'd (attempt to) split back to his components like DBM's Gotenks upon Carbonite exposure.When the Gamma Burts happened, Merged Zamasu had already gone completely broken. He regenerated despite being defused and was multiplying like crazy. I'd think the Hakai would not have worked that time. But before I'm inclined to think yes, given how threatened Zamasu felt. I'd personally consider Zamasu a full deity (as well as Goku Black) despite not being promoted to Kaioshins. When SSJRose first appeared, Zamasu mentioned something like "so this is like when true gods become SSJ". I'd think that if deities were immune to this sort of attacks, it shouldn't even have worked at all. It went only 45% not because it failed (it was working just fine) but because Goku decided to stop it.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 3, 2017 9:03:44 GMT
To avoid multiple posts in a row and because I'm too lazy to quote all the posts the two of you posted that I wish to respond to, I'll just tag you both. The Retro Kakarotto Conqueror GengUntil stated otherwise, I believe Hakai and Erase both work the same in the manga and anime and while it's true I'm not caught up with the manga, I didn't think it was relevant to mention it because I had been under that assumption that Toriyama and Toyotaro are at least so far of the same opinion of how Hakai and Erase work. Sorry about not mentioning it do to me thinking it wasn't necessary to mention that fact. For the sake of making this conversation easier, let's assume that they are both the same in both canonical depictions of DBS and therefore that Mirai Beerus must've Hakai'd Goku Black & Mirai Zamasu prior to Mirai Zamasu achieving immortality after Whis went to warn Mirai Beerus to make sure that a new alternate Mirai Timeline would exist for Mirai Trunks and Mirai Mai to live in along with their time twins of that new Mirai timeline. Okay so Beerus said that he couldn't Hakai an immortal being. Well seeing as Merged Zamasu was immortal when Goku attempted it and yet was afraid of the technique that probably just means he hadn't been privy to the fact that Hakai doesn't work on immortals and therefore since he thought it might work was afraid of the technique. Remember Zamasu never graduated from his apprenticeship and therefore technically remained North Kai of U10. North Kai being lower deities might just not be privy to all the information that higher deities are. And yes The Retro Kakarotto, Zamasu was a deity, just not a Supreme Kai, because he was a North Kai and regular Kai (any Kai lower than the rank of Supreme Kai [North, West, South, East, and Grand]) are considered to be lower level deities, but deities nonetheless. My assumption that Supreme Kais are immune to Hakai is based off the fact that if they weren't, what reason would Beerus have had to seal away Old Kai in the Z Sword instead of Hakaing him. Maybe you might say he didn't want to die, but if Old Kai was the only Supreme Kai and sealing away a Supreme Kai removes your connection with them in the life link, then wouldn't that almost count like the last Supreme Kai dying and therefore Beerus would've died too. I think there was still at least 1 of the other 4 Supreme Kais alive when Beerus sealed away Old Kai in the Z Sword and if that is the case then it would've been safe to Hakai him if he wanted to permanently get rid of him. You may also question if that was the case, why didn't one of the other 4 try to free him; easy they couldn't lift the sword out of the ground. The sealing technique Beerus used probably also included keeping the sword stuck in the rock in such a way that no deity could remove it from the stone by any means including blasting apart the mountain it was stuck in and therefore wouldn't be able to destroy the sword's blade. You may say that this is all baseless speculation, but in a conversation about how we think something works that isn't explained fully in the source material, of course we must do speculation and use educated guesses and potentially circumstantial evidence to back up our reasoning for why we think that is how these things work. As for it not working on GoDs, Angels, & Zen-Oh, I think it makes a lot of sense why Hakai wouldn't work on them. If eliminating a GoD, Angel, or Zen-Oh were that easy, then certainly the GoDs wouldn't have to fight each on a cosmic scale that could destroy the Universe or thru contests every time they had a dispute. If Hakai worked, then the winner of a fight would simply be whichever GoD could get the jump on the other and more quickly Hakai the other. Maybe they don't attempt Hakai on each other outta of fear that they'd both finish their Hakais simultaneously and it would be mutually assured destruction or maybe they are forbidden by Zen-Oh to Hakai each other, but it just as logically makes sense that they don't do use Hakai on each other because it simply wouldn't have any affect whatsoever and if the reason Beerus didn't Hakai, Old Kai is because it wouldn't work, then it makes sense that the same reason applies to other high level deities. All that being said, I think Zen-Oh might be a special case as he is the Omni-King. I think if he wanted to die, he could remove his own immunity and both Hakai and Erase could work him. I think he could remove his own immunity because I believe he is the one that grants these immunities to high level deities. Anyways if you disagree with any of my logic/reasoning then feel free to say what it is you disagree with and we can continue the conversation as we have been doing. I am always okay with hearing your own logic/reasoning/views on the matter. I mean if I wasn't then I would've never posted this thread in the first place after all.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 3, 2017 16:34:03 GMT
For the sake of making this conversation easier, let's assume that they are both the same in both canonical depictions of DBS and therefore that Mirai Beerus must've Hakai'd Goku Black & Mirai Zamasu prior to Mirai Zamasu achieving immortality after Whis went to warn Mirai Beerus to make sure that a new alternate Mirai Timeline would exist for Mirai Trunks and Mirai Mai to live in along with their time twins of that new Mirai timeline. Edit: Why!? What THE FUCK happened to my post? Spent a good hour on that shit and it literally disappeared into the quotes!I will try to edit this message and recover my attempted post. Edit 2: Couldn't even edit this message without the same mistake being made. Pointless to delete, proof of my futile attempt at the initial post.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 3, 2017 18:09:13 GMT
Second attempt. If this shit don't work, I'm give up and will search for a @therealgohan to help me out. For the sake of making this conversation easier, let's assume that they are both the same in both canonical depictions of DBS and therefore that Mirai Beerus must've Hakai'd Goku Black & Mirai Zamasu prior to Mirai Zamasu achieving immortality after Whis went to warn Mirai Beerus to make sure that a new alternate Mirai Timeline would exist for Mirai Trunks and Mirai Mai to live in along with their time twins of that new Mirai timeline. Incorrect, here's the transcript of the 67th episode from hotanime.me (subtitles) Here Beerus suggests that he can't destroy an immortal entity. Whis saves everyone time and prevents another ring from being created by using something more effective than the Mafuba. Since Beerus most likely listens to his Angel's advice, he probably didn't try to Hakai Zamasu, and just left Present!Whis to deal with it. Bold: Sealing and removing the life link are two separate situations, there's no confirmation on sealing someone and it resulting in the person's "death" or "lack of life"... removal of a life link... Why? Old Kai is still alive when he popped out of the sword, so unless his soul was taken from him upon being sealed, then he had to have been alive in the sword... for 75 million years (poor guy, probably bored to death and might not have beena ble to die in there... unless you get touched by Dabura's saliva). Bold and Underlined: Is there any hint to this that such an event happened nearly 75 million years ago? Any indication other than a North SK, South East and West and Grand SK formation appearing to try and stop Beerus? Later in Super we see only one SK accompanying their respective GoD, how do we know there's supposed to be 4 more SK's or if U7 is just an anomaly? And something so obscure as Beerus' life link to mimic Piccolo and Kami just for the sake of the 0Mortals Plan is so bloody confusing, any speculation would just mean the fans are imposing an idea that might be invalid later down the road. We (other members that have participated in the discussion) disagreed by proving with factual information, or at least safe assumptions made from what we've seen and read, not ones that haven't hinted any information nor backstory, in your example, to the "other SK's" existing to pass on the life link. You already admitted to creating educated guesses but when those guesses mean creating a piece of information to the story to justify your explanations, sorry mate but the joy of discussion is lost unless we're able to pull explanations like "XXI WAS IN DRAGON BALL SUPER, ZENO ERASED HIM, THAT'S WHY ZENO ERASED THE 6 UNIVERSES, TO STOP HIM FROM SPREADING EVULZ!" Explain with what is given, not create info out of the blue. Edit: YESSS FINALLY THIS POST WORKS!!!
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 3, 2017 23:14:55 GMT
The Retro KakarottoI have been using real information. Remember Old Kai is from U7 so if that anomaly applies then it should've applied 15 generations ago which was prior to the time when Buu got rid of the other 4 SKs by killing 2 and absorbing 2. The life link being severed upon sealing has been confirmed since they said Old Kai is no longer life linked to Beerus (either in the story or Toriyama saying it in an interview; not sure which). Though apparently my assumption for why Beerus sealed him in the sword instead of killing him I found out was wrong. He did it only because it would've been worse for him to destroy the Sacred World of the Kais. This is just speculation but it might've even angered Zen-Oh if Beerus had destroyed the Sacred World of the Kais, but again this part is just speculation. Anyways others have agreed with my speculation that GoDs, Angels, & Zen-Oh can't be destroyed by Hakai though only due to power reasons, not due to immunity. Though seeing as how Hakai works so differently than any other technique then is it really that far-fetched to assume it doesn't work on those deities due to an immunity granted to them by Zen-Oh to avoid infighting resulting in disrupting the natural order and hierarchy of the high tier gods? Also if immunity is the reason, wouldn't it be safe to assume that SKs being among that same higher order of deity would also have said immunity to Hakai?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 4, 2017 5:23:24 GMT
The Retro Kakarotto I have been using real information. Remember Old Kai is from U7 so if that anomaly applies then it should've applied 15 generations ago which was prior to the time when Buu got rid of the other 4 SKs by killing 2 and absorbing 2. The life link being severed upon sealing has been confirmed since they said Old Kai is no longer life linked to Beerus (either in the story or Toriyama saying it in an interview; not sure which). Though apparently my assumption for why Beerus sealed him in the sword instead of killing him I found out was wrong. He did it only because it would've been worse for him to destroy the Sacred World of the Kais. This is just speculation but it might've even angered Zen-Oh if Beerus had destroyed the Sacred World of the Kais, but again this part is just speculation. Anyways others have agreed with my speculation that GoDs, Angels, & Zen-Oh can't be destroyed by Hakai though only due to power reasons, not due to immunity. Though seeing as how Hakai works so differently than any other technique then is it really that far-fetched to assume it doesn't work on those deities due to an immunity granted to them by Zen-Oh to avoid infighting resulting in disrupting the natural order and hierarchy of the high tier gods? Also if immunity is the reason, wouldn't it be safe to assume that SKs being among that same higher order of deity would also have said immunity to Hakai? It's been confirmed by whom? Not everyone possesses knowledge of such information dude, mind sharing it or citing it? Otherwise, with what Z has shown us, Old Kai gave up his life which might have ended the life link (but my idea for the L.L. is that it's an automatic process, magically going straight to the next available Supreme Kai, and the ritual is only required to initiate a new SK or new GoD). Otherwise, unless a character within the series pointed it out, Toriyama explains in an interview, or there's enough subtle hints to fit the pieces together (and I mean clear ones, not obscure ones that forces people to unleash their imagination process), then there's no confirmation on why Old Kai's Life Link was severed with Beerus and yet Beerus is still considered "alive" by the time we see him in super, and when and how Shin got the Link. You missed my point. Make counterarguments with factual information, or at least safe assumptions made from what we've seen and read, not ones that haven't hinted any information nor backstory. And now in this case, providing evidence if the claim seems far fetched. Creating a scenario super specific to your explanation doesn't give us room to debate on unless we end up changing the scenario listed by making it more broad, aka what the anime and manga has shown us and nothing else.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 4, 2017 7:31:47 GMT
The Retro Kakarotto I have been using real information. Remember Old Kai is from U7 so if that anomaly applies then it should've applied 15 generations ago which was prior to the time when Buu got rid of the other 4 SKs by killing 2 and absorbing 2. The life link being severed upon sealing has been confirmed since they said Old Kai is no longer life linked to Beerus (either in the story or Toriyama saying it in an interview; not sure which). Though apparently my assumption for why Beerus sealed him in the sword instead of killing him I found out was wrong. He did it only because it would've been worse for him to destroy the Sacred World of the Kais. This is just speculation but it might've even angered Zen-Oh if Beerus had destroyed the Sacred World of the Kais, but again this part is just speculation. Anyways others have agreed with my speculation that GoDs, Angels, & Zen-Oh can't be destroyed by Hakai though only due to power reasons, not due to immunity. Though seeing as how Hakai works so differently than any other technique then is it really that far-fetched to assume it doesn't work on those deities due to an immunity granted to them by Zen-Oh to avoid infighting resulting in disrupting the natural order and hierarchy of the high tier gods? Also if immunity is the reason, wouldn't it be safe to assume that SKs being among that same higher order of deity would also have said immunity to Hakai? It's been confirmed by whom? Not everyone possesses knowledge of such information dude, mind sharing it or citing it? Otherwise, with what Z has shown us, Old Kai gave up his life which might have ended the life link (but my idea for the L.L. is that it's an automatic process, magically going straight to the next available Supreme Kai, and the ritual is only required to initiate a new SK or new GoD). Otherwise, unless a character within the series pointed it out, Toriyama explains in an interview, or there's enough subtle hints to fit the pieces together (and I mean clear ones, not obscure ones that forces people to unleash their imagination process), then there's no confirmation on why Old Kai's Life Link was severed with Beerus and yet Beerus is still considered "alive" by the time we see him in super, and when and how Shin got the Link. You missed my point. Make counterarguments with factual information, or at least safe assumptions made from what we've seen and read, not ones that haven't hinted any information nor backstory. And now in this case, providing evidence if the claim seems far fetched. Creating a scenario super specific to your explanation doesn't give us room to debate on unless we end up changing the scenario listed by making it more broad, aka what the anime and manga has shown us and nothing else. Well it's mentioned on Beerus' wiki page that Shin is the last official Supreme Kai and therefore that infers that Old Kai being sealed in the sword caused him to lose his status official status as a Supreme Kai causing him to no longer have a life link with Beerus. Now there was no reference to where this was mentioned, so without further digging one would assume this is pure speculation. Now seeing as you want more than speculation, I decided to do more digging and discovered that in Mirai Trunks' timeline the Z Sword was wielded by Mirai Trunks and used in his battle against Mirai Dabura. During said battle, Mirai Dabura spit on the sword and after Mirai Shin told him to drop it, it shattered and even further was destroyed by Mirai Dabura engulfing the shattered pieces in flames. This would mean that Mirai Old Kai was released during said battle, but it is never mentioned that he was killed during said battle and only Mirai Shin died during the battle. If were playing by a no speculations rule then Mirai Dabura's spit didn't kill Mirai Old Kai and neither did the fire since present time Old Kai didn't appear directly in front of the sword after it was broken then the same would be true in the Mirai timeline. We also can't speculate that Mirai Dabura killed him prior to Mirai Trunks killing him because it's not mentioned that he was seen on the battlefield by any of them present, which would confirm that he likely appeared far enough away from the sword to where nobody would notice him and immediately hid to prevent anyone from noticing him since it was a dangerous situation. Now it is only mentioned that Mirai Shin died and Mirai Beerus died due to their life link. If Mirai Old Kai had a life link to Mirai Beerus then Mirai Beerus would've survived and Goku Black would've never attacked that timeline since he was searching for one where Beerus was already dead. This definitively proves that the life link killed Mirai Beerus while Mirai Old Kai was still alive and therefore this proves that Mirai Old Kai is not officially considered a Supreme Kai as he had it stripped from him after he was sealed inside the Z Sword. If Mirai Old Kai is not officially considered one for that reason, then main timeline Old Kai is also not considered one officially and therefore his supposed rank as the current Grand Supreme Kai is an unofficial title. Is this enough evidence to prove to you it is the truth and not just mere speculation? Do remember that the original Mirai Timeline is technically the original timeline because the main DB series timeline is an offshoot timeline due to the fact that Mirai Trunks and Cell changed the past via their time traveling shenanigans. This would mean there would be no explanation for why Old Kai wasn't sealed in the Z Sword in the original Mirai Timeline and was in the main DB series timeline.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 4, 2017 7:53:16 GMT
I think that after reading this entire discussion and re-examining the info available I'd say that 'Hakai' works on anyone without destruction energy. As it worked on Zamasu even though he was a Kai in training being of Divine origin is no defence. Therefore i'd say it would work on the Angels as well, which while are generally considered to be more powerful than their respective Gods of Destruction, at this point there's no indication that they have access to Destruction energy (Despite having a host of other magic abilities) Erase is basically Hakai but writ-large- As in can be used on an entire universe and everything in it, even if they don't currently resie in the universe at the time. Making it the most Hax of all Hax techniques. The Retro Kakarotto - What do you reckon? Sums up your initial point in the other thread where this little discussion eventuated?
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 4, 2017 8:21:34 GMT
I think that after reading this entire discussion and re-examining the info available I'd say that 'Hakai' works on anyone without destruction energy. As it worked on Zamasu even though he was a Kai in training being of Divine origin is no defence. Therefore i'd say it would work on the Angels as well, which while are generally considered to be more powerful than their respective Gods of Destruction, at this point there's no indication that they have access to Destruction energy (Despite having a host of other magic abilities) Erase is basically Hakai but writ-large- As in can be used on an entire universe and everything in it, even if they don't currently resie in the universe at the time. Making it the most Hax of all Hax techniques. The Retro Kakarotto - What do you reckon? Sums up your initial point in the other thread where this little discussion eventuated? Okay I think I shall change my previous opinion about SKs being immune and maybe even Angels, but I think Zen-Oh himself is definitely immune because he is the Omni-King and I think he has much more abilities than just the simply erase we've seen. Hell we've see the 2 Zen-Ohs playing some sorta game containing a model of the Universe where they'd flick planets around crashing into each other and the planets represented actually were said to have been destroyed, but we didn't see the signature blue orb of light that appears when Zen-Oh uses Erase, so I think at the very least they also have some sorta ability where they can link two objects together like the marbles representing the planets to the actually planets they represent and the movement of one causes the thing it's linked together with to move exactly in the same manner. Flick a model of one planet into a model of another and the force of the planets affecting crashing into one another at such high speeds just disintegrates both planets. That I believe is a power they possess as well unless it was the GP that enchanted the marbles to be linked to actual planets. Also I think being the God of All Gods and Everything Else means he probably has creation powers too as he's not just a GoD on a grander scale, but of a God of Creation on a grander scale as well. I guess the reason GoDs don't attempt to kill Angels or other GoDs is because their Angels would stop them by reminding that doing such a thing might piss off Zen-Oh, which might result in their death as well by the hands of Zen-Oh's Erase technique/ability.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 4, 2017 9:15:18 GMT
I think that after reading this entire discussion and re-examining the info available I'd say that 'Hakai' works on anyone without destruction energy. As it worked on Zamasu even though he was a Kai in training being of Divine origin is no defence. Therefore i'd say it would work on the Angels as well, which while are generally considered to be more powerful than their respective Gods of Destruction, at this point there's no indication that they have access to Destruction energy (Despite having a host of other magic abilities) Erase is basically Hakai but writ-large- As in can be used on an entire universe and everything in it, even if they don't currently resie in the universe at the time. Making it the most Hax of all Hax techniques. The Retro Kakarotto - What do you reckon? Sums up your initial point in the other thread where this little discussion eventuated? Okay I think I shall change my previous opinion about SKs being immune and maybe even Angels, but I think Zen-Oh himself is definitely immune because he is the Omni-King and I think he has much more abilities than just the simply erase we've seen. Hell we've see the 2 Zen-Ohs playing some sorta game containing a model of the Universe where they'd flick planets around crashing into each other and the planets represented actually were said to have been destroyed, but we didn't see the signature blue orb of light that appears when Zen-Oh uses Erase, so I think at the very least they also have some sorta ability where they can link two objects together like the marbles representing the planets to the actually planets they represent and the movement of one causes the thing it's linked together with to move exactly in the same manner. Flick a model of one planet into a model of another and the force of the planets affecting crashing into one another at such high speeds just disintegrates both planets. That I believe is a power they possess as well unless it was the GP that enchanted the marbles to be linked to actual planets. Also I think being the God of All Gods and Everything Else means he probably has creation powers too as he's not just a GoD on a grander scale, but of a God of Creation on a grander scale as well. I guess the reason GoDs don't attempt to kill Angels or other GoDs is because their Angels would stop them by reminding that doing such a thing might piss off Zen-Oh, which might result in their death as well by the hands of Zen-Oh's Erase technique/ability. Or it's just a focused form of Erase? That's why it's so 'Hax'- It can be used on a single opponent (Most notably on Frost when he went to attack from the stands)- Individual planets, entire universes and other beings that have 'Destruction' energy, as well as immortals (Like Infinite zamasu). Basically i see 'Erase' as using an entire higher form of energy- Like Annihilation (For lack of a better term). It's so powerful that it can unmake anything Zeno wants. As for the Angels- Since they act as guides and trainers i don't see why a God would ever go through with destroying them. You're right that it would probably piss off Zeno, but can you imagine the Grand Priest being merciful? IF he is in the 'Top 5 battle powers' in the entire multiverse, would you really wisk his wrath by destroying his sons/daughters? In saying that though Whis has stated that there was nothing Beerus couldn't destroy (Within universe 7 i'd guess), which may just include Angels.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 4, 2017 17:03:24 GMT
It's been confirmed by whom? Not everyone possesses knowledge of such information dude, mind sharing it or citing it? Otherwise, with what Z has shown us, Old Kai gave up his life which might have ended the life link (but my idea for the L.L. is that it's an automatic process, magically going straight to the next available Supreme Kai, and the ritual is only required to initiate a new SK or new GoD). Otherwise, unless a character within the series pointed it out, Toriyama explains in an interview, or there's enough subtle hints to fit the pieces together (and I mean clear ones, not obscure ones that forces people to unleash their imagination process), then there's no confirmation on why Old Kai's Life Link was severed with Beerus and yet Beerus is still considered "alive" by the time we see him in super, and when and how Shin got the Link. You missed my point. Make counterarguments with factual information, or at least safe assumptions made from what we've seen and read, not ones that haven't hinted any information nor backstory. And now in this case, providing evidence if the claim seems far fetched. Creating a scenario super specific to your explanation doesn't give us room to debate on unless we end up changing the scenario listed by making it more broad, aka what the anime and manga has shown us and nothing else. Well it's mentioned on Beerus' wiki page that Shin is the last official Supreme Kai and therefore that infers that Old Kai being sealed in the sword caused him to lose his status official status as a Supreme Kai causing him to no longer have a life link with Beerus. Now there was no reference to where this was mentioned, so without further digging one would assume this is pure speculation. Now seeing as you want more than speculation, I decided to do more digging and discovered that in Mirai Trunks' timeline the Z Sword was wielded by Mirai Trunks and used in his battle against Mirai Dabura. During said battle, Mirai Dabura spit on the sword and after Mirai Shin told him to drop it, it shattered and even further was destroyed by Mirai Dabura engulfing the shattered pieces in flames. This would mean that Mirai Old Kai was released during said battle, but it is never mentioned that he was killed during said battle and only Mirai Shin died during the battle. If were playing by a no speculations rule then Mirai Dabura's spit didn't kill Mirai Old Kai and neither did the fire since present time Old Kai didn't appear directly in front of the sword after it was broken then the same would be true in the Mirai timeline. We also can't speculate that Mirai Dabura killed him prior to Mirai Trunks killing him because it's not mentioned that he was seen on the battlefield by any of them present, which would confirm that he likely appeared far enough away from the sword to where nobody would notice him and immediately hid to prevent anyone from noticing him since it was a dangerous situation. Now it is only mentioned that Mirai Shin died and Mirai Beerus died due to their life link. If Mirai Old Kai had a life link to Mirai Beerus then Mirai Beerus would've survived and Goku Black would've never attacked that timeline since he was searching for one where Beerus was already dead. This definitively proves that the life link killed Mirai Beerus while Mirai Old Kai was still alive and therefore this proves that Mirai Old Kai is not officially considered a Supreme Kai as he had it stripped from him after he was sealed inside the Z Sword. If Mirai Old Kai is not officially considered one for that reason, then main timeline Old Kai is also not considered one officially and therefore his supposed rank as the current Grand Supreme Kai is an unofficial title. Is this enough evidence to prove to you it is the truth and not just mere speculation? Do remember that the original Mirai Timeline is technically the original timeline because the main DB series timeline is an offshoot timeline due to the fact that Mirai Trunks and Cell changed the past via their time traveling shenanigans. This would mean there would be no explanation for why Old Kai wasn't sealed in the Z Sword in the original Mirai Timeline and was in the main DB series timeline. Due to Beerus' debuting after the Buu Saga, we actually do not know if this is a result of Old Kai's life transfer or the sword sealing. Still, it doesn't make sense to declare someone like Old Kai dead upon a sealing spell, sealing spells are either restricting the person within an object so that they're trapped in the object and their energy is sealed off completely (case here bc apparently SK and Kibito couldn't "sense" Old KAi in the sword) or sent the person to another dimension, not necessarily death/other world, but one like the HTC where people outside couldn't sense the one "trapped" or sealed away. The sword in stone (no pun intended) is already evident that Old Kai has been petrified, having it shattered made it more evident that Dabura killed Old Kai, even the "reliable" wiki says so on Future Old Kai's page. But if Old Kai really was alive, why didn't he help Trunks and Mai when Shin and Kibito brought them to the Sacred World? Surely Old Kai's "all mighty all seeing eyes of the universe" would've decided to put the magazines down and help Trunks in the last attempt to stop Black and Zamasu. Otherwise, he's willing to help Goku when the MAjin Buu threat struck, yet didn't want to help Trunks who technically aided his supposed release from the Sword? Doesn't seem likely Old Kai would change character like that. I think that after reading this entire discussion and re-examining the info available I'd say that 'Hakai' works on anyone without destruction energy. As it worked on Zamasu even though he was a Kai in training being of Divine origin is no defence. Therefore i'd say it would work on the Angels as well, which while are generally considered to be more powerful than their respective Gods of Destruction, at this point there's no indication that they have access to Destruction energy (Despite having a host of other magic abilities) Erase is basically Hakai but writ-large- As in can be used on an entire universe and everything in it, even if they don't currently resie in the universe at the time. Making it the most Hax of all Hax techniques. The Retro Kakarotto - What do you reckon? Sums up your initial point in the other thread where this little discussion eventuated? This point, right? Juuust makin sure! In that case, then I agree. I believe that while the GoDs are capable of Destroying anything, including their Angels and possibly Zeno (key word Possibly), they didn't do so out of respect to their Angels, who are literally their teacher, caretaker, and to an extent their servant they can order around... Looking at you Beerus. We're not sure if there's a condition like SK-GoD link where if the Angel was killed then the GoD is killed or something extreme occurs, we only know that killing a GoD would deactivate his angel except in the ToP's case where they were selectively spared from their universe. In regards to Zeno, my initial comment that sparked this entire debate was whether Zeno would be destroyed by Hakai if he was willing to let a GoD hakai him. I know it sounded far fetched as to why, but I had to write that in to say "he let him" Like Goku letting that laser pierce him. However if he wasn't willing, then he's just got fast reflexes given by how quickly he reacted to Frost's threat. This makes me believe that the GoDs can't act fast enough to destroy Zeno without getting erased first themselves. tl;dr My belief is that Hakai can destroy anything, but the GoDs didn't choose to destroy their Angels because they're respectful of them, and they didn't try to erase Zeno not because it didn't work, but because they didn't do it out of fear of getting erased (which is faster than a Hakai). "I will unmake you from existence if you try to unalive me again U6." -Zeno. Oh... beat me to the punch. Dang it.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 11, 2017 1:57:27 GMT
VoidSlayer The Retro KakarottoI don't think the Planet Marbles game is them using Erase on the planets whose corresponding marbles collide since we don't see them actually using the Erase technique. I believe it's just some sorta multiversal scale telekinesis and the speed at which they collide is so catastrophic that of course they destroy each other. You gotta be careful when using the Wiki to declare whether or not something is canon. Sure it looks like his main picture is from a manga chapter, but if that case it should've included a source reference, which it doesn't. Anyways even if it is canon to the manga, then that doesn't guarantee it canon to the anime since they are 2 separate canons after all. As for it being from the manga, I'd have to catch up to that point in the manga as I quit reading the manga around the time Vegeta started his fight against Frost in the U6 vs U7 Tournament.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 5:39:23 GMT
VoidSlayer The Retro KakarottoI don't think the Planet Marbles game is them using Erase on the planets whose corresponding marbles collide since we don't see them actually using the Erase technique. I believe it's just some sorta multiversal scale telekinesis and the speed at which they collide is so catastrophic that of course they destroy each other. You gotta be careful when using the Wiki to declare whether or not something is canon. Sure it looks like his main picture is from a manga chapter, but if that case it should've included a source reference, which it doesn't. Anyways even if it is canon to the manga, then that doesn't guarantee it canon to the anime since they are 2 separate canons after all. As for it being from the manga, I'd have to catch up to that point in the manga as I quit reading the manga around the time Vegeta started his fight against Frost in the U6 vs U7 Tournament. What irks me is that they consider flicking planets (possibly containing life) around and watching them collide with each other to the point of destruction as a game and play it with smiles on their faces, even if they do not feel the same as mortals do. I like to think that their flicking gestures are used to trigger a focused variation of Erase (as VoidSlayer described Zen-Oh's technique). Like how Goku can use the Kamehameha with the hands or feet, Zen-Oh can use his Erase by clenching his fist or flicking his finger.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 11, 2017 7:06:14 GMT
VoidSlayer The Retro Kakarotto I don't think the Planet Marbles game is them using Erase on the planets whose corresponding marbles collide since we don't see them actually using the Erase technique. I believe it's just some sorta multiversal scale telekinesis and the speed at which they collide is so catastrophic that of course they destroy each other. You gotta be careful when using the Wiki to declare whether or not something is canon. Sure it looks like his main picture is from a manga chapter, but if that case it should've included a source reference, which it doesn't. Anyways even if it is canon to the manga, then that doesn't guarantee it canon to the anime since they are 2 separate canons after all. As for it being from the manga, I'd have to catch up to that point in the manga as I quit reading the manga around the time Vegeta started his fight against Frost in the U6 vs U7 Tournament. I'd honestly say it's most likely a focused form of erase, Both Zeno's have yet to show any other power (Although when it's that damn O.P do you really need another?) When i re-watched that scene you never see any form of explosion (which would happen if a gigantic kinetic impact occurred) they just seem to...Dissipate. Untill it's confirmed one way or another i'm saying it's just another way of using 'Erase' For future reference i'll always quote the anime over the manga simply because i vastly prefer all of Dragon Ball in TV format, although i'll acknowledge that often things are presented differently. @fegget117- My thoughts exactly. If Zeno can erase anything from an entire universe and all it's participants, down to a single fighter (Frost). Surely either of them can Erase a planet with just as much ease.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 11, 2017 7:17:27 GMT
VoidSlayer The Retro Kakarotto [...] You gotta be careful when using the Wiki to declare whether or not something is canon. Sure it looks like his main picture is from a manga chapter, but if that case it should've included a source reference, which it doesn't. Anyways even if it is canon to the manga, then that doesn't guarantee it canon to the anime since they are 2 separate canons after all. As for it being from the manga, I'd have to catch up to that point in the manga as I quit reading the manga around the time Vegeta started his fight against Frost in the U6 vs U7 Tournament. Kor Saiyajinkami said: The Retro Kakarotto said: So you're meaning to tell me it's fine to use Beerus' wiki page to jump to the conclusion "Old Kai being Sealed in the sword caused him to lose his life," yet my usage of the wiki to say "Dabura Killed Old Kai in the Manga" becomes questionable? Dabura's spit petrifies a person and turns them to stone, if their statue broke, the person would be dead. It isn't far-fetched to believe the Z-Sword, that became stone during the fight, broke and by extension Old Kai died from the seal being "dead." Saying Shin is the Last official Supreme Kai and is life linked to Beerus is fine, we've seen alluded evidence or proof of that. The Sealing of Old Kai and him losing the life link I don't see plausible. Can you provide the episode, manga page, or interview that states "sealing technique = losing life?" Otherwise, you're avoiding the main question with that theory of yours, how did Old Kai get his life back when Gohan broke the sword with the Katchin Cube? VoidSlayer The Retro Kakarotto I don't think the Planet Marbles game is them using Erase on the planets whose corresponding marbles collide since we don't see them actually using the Erase technique. I believe it's just some sorta multiversal scale telekinesis and the speed at which they collide is so catastrophic that of course they destroy each other. You gotta be careful when using the Wiki to declare whether or not something is canon. Sure it looks like his main picture is from a manga chapter, but if that case it should've included a source reference, which it doesn't. Anyways even if it is canon to the manga, then that doesn't guarantee it canon to the anime since they are 2 separate canons after all. As for it being from the manga, I'd have to catch up to that point in the manga as I quit reading the manga around the time Vegeta started his fight against Frost in the U6 vs U7 Tournament. I'd honestly say it's most likely a focused form of erase, Both Zeno's have yet to show any other power (Although when it's that damn O.P do you really need another?) When i re-watched that scene you never see any form of explosion (which would happen if a gigantic kinetic impact occurred) they just seem to...Dissipate. Untill it's confirmed one way or another i'm saying it's just another way of using 'Erase' For future reference i'll always quote the anime over the manga simply because i vastly prefer all of Dragon Ball in TV format, although i'll acknowledge that often things are presented differently. @fegget117 - My thoughts exactly. If Zeno can erase anything from an entire universe and all it's participants, down to a single fighter (Frost). Surely either of them can Erase a planet with just as much ease. What about them "Willing" the objects and persons to be erased, or a psychic ability? (Might've forgotten if this was discussed already.) The energy that comes out of the hands is just for show when they "activated" their Erase technique; it isn't necessary for the Erase technique in general, yet the instance to erase Zamasu was more of a "eliminate EVERYTHING!" blast/bomb method. Them erasing Frost and U10-and the locket-was the Zenos selectively erasing their targets; since the blue light didn't come into contact with anything from U10 and just a raised hand, unless it was an invisible version of Super Buu's Human Extinction Ball, I'd say it's a psychic ability. Iirc, Zeno clenched his fist to erase Frost, but never pointed towards him, meaning it's not necessary to physically point at the target, maybe just mentally focus on them.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 11, 2017 7:40:15 GMT
VoidSlayer The Retro Kakarotto [...] You gotta be careful when using the Wiki to declare whether or not something is canon. Sure it looks like his main picture is from a manga chapter, but if that case it should've included a source reference, which it doesn't. Anyways even if it is canon to the manga, then that doesn't guarantee it canon to the anime since they are 2 separate canons after all. As for it being from the manga, I'd have to catch up to that point in the manga as I quit reading the manga around the time Vegeta started his fight against Frost in the U6 vs U7 Tournament. Kor Saiyajinkami said: The Retro Kakarotto said: So you're meaning to tell me it's fine to use Beerus' wiki page to jump to the conclusion "Old Kai being Sealed in the sword caused him to lose his life," yet my usage of the wiki to say "Dabura Killed Old Kai in the Manga" becomes questionable? Dabura's spit petrifies a person and turns them to stone, if their statue broke, the person would be dead. It isn't far-fetched to believe the Z-Sword, that became stone during the fight, broke and by extension Old Kai died from the seal being "dead." Saying Shin is the Last official Supreme Kai and is life linked to Beerus is fine, we've seen alluded evidence or proof of that. The Sealing of Old Kai and him losing the life link I don't see plausible. Can you provide the episode, manga page, or interview that states "sealing technique = losing life?" Otherwise, you're avoiding the main question with that theory of yours, how did Old Kai get his life back when Gohan broke the sword with the Katchin Cube? I'd honestly say it's most likely a focused form of erase, Both Zeno's have yet to show any other power (Although when it's that damn O.P do you really need another?) When i re-watched that scene you never see any form of explosion (which would happen if a gigantic kinetic impact occurred) they just seem to...Dissipate. Untill it's confirmed one way or another i'm saying it's just another way of using 'Erase' For future reference i'll always quote the anime over the manga simply because i vastly prefer all of Dragon Ball in TV format, although i'll acknowledge that often things are presented differently. @fegget117 - My thoughts exactly. If Zeno can erase anything from an entire universe and all it's participants, down to a single fighter (Frost). Surely either of them can Erase a planet with just as much ease. What about them "Willing" the objects and persons to be erased, or a psychic ability? (Might've forgotten if this was discussed already.) The energy that comes out of the hands is just for show when they "activated" their Erase technique; it isn't necessary for the Erase technique in general, yet the instance to erase Zamasu was more of a "eliminate EVERYTHING!" blast/bomb method. Them erasing Frost and U10-and the locket-was the Zenos selectively erasing their targets; since the blue light didn't come into contact with anything from U10 and just a raised hand, unless it was an invisible version of Super Buu's Human Extinction Ball, I'd say it's a psychic ability. Iirc, Zeno clenched his fist to erase Frost, but never pointed towards him, meaning it's not necessary to physically point at the target, maybe just mentally focus on them. I'm not saying it's not possible, and they just psychically 'willed' the objects in question to collide and used the images on their play boards as some kind of divine holograms. I'm merely stating that so far Zeno has yet to show any other power except for erase so it's hard to argue anything else when there's (currently) no evidence.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 7:59:12 GMT
Kor Saiyajinkami said: The Retro Kakarotto said: So you're meaning to tell me it's fine to use Beerus' wiki page to jump to the conclusion "Old Kai being Sealed in the sword caused him to lose his life," yet my usage of the wiki to say "Dabura Killed Old Kai in the Manga" becomes questionable? Dabura's spit petrifies a person and turns them to stone, if their statue broke, the person would be dead. It isn't far-fetched to believe the Z-Sword, that became stone during the fight, broke and by extension Old Kai died from the seal being "dead." Saying Shin is the Last official Supreme Kai and is life linked to Beerus is fine, we've seen alluded evidence or proof of that. The Sealing of Old Kai and him losing the life link I don't see plausible. Can you provide the episode, manga page, or interview that states "sealing technique = losing life?" Otherwise, you're avoiding the main question with that theory of yours, how did Old Kai get his life back when Gohan broke the sword with the Katchin Cube? What about them "Willing" the objects and persons to be erased, or a psychic ability? (Might've forgotten if this was discussed already.) The energy that comes out of the hands is just for show when they "activated" their Erase technique; it isn't necessary for the Erase technique in general, yet the instance to erase Zamasu was more of a "eliminate EVERYTHING!" blast/bomb method. Them erasing Frost and U10-and the locket-was the Zenos selectively erasing their targets; since the blue light didn't come into contact with anything from U10 and just a raised hand, unless it was an invisible version of Super Buu's Human Extinction Ball, I'd say it's a psychic ability. Iirc, Zeno clenched his fist to erase Frost, but never pointed towards him, meaning it's not necessary to physically point at the target, maybe just mentally focus on them. I'm not saying it's not possible, and they just psychically 'willed' the objects in question to collide and used the images on their play boards as some kind of divine holograms. I'm merely stating that so far Zeno has yet to show any other power except for erase so it's hard to argue anything else when there's (currently) no evidence. Well, given the level of power they exhibit, I'm sure they can very well 'will' anything out of existence, as long as Zen-Oh knows it exists. Since we know that Zen-Oh isn't omniscient as was portrayed, I'm sure that kind of requirement applies.
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