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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 19, 2016 19:39:26 GMT
I am assuming Tapion's home gravity is 1g.
During his Krillin fight, the gravity was at 100g. Tapion could survive even if he was crawling without Hildegarn's aura.
Raichi's home planet is 10g (Planet Vegeta) so 1000g would be the equivalent of what 100g was to Tapion. Raichi should be floored and crawling, but not dead. At 100g he could get up to his ball again (he was shaking, but I do not think this was because of gravity, but due to having your crystal bubble burst by a SSJ3 fullpowerpunch.
Still, although Raichi is not a fighter per se, it's somehow implied he's stronger than Tapion by himself.
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Post by Andres on Sept 19, 2016 21:59:46 GMT
Tapion died at 1000G. The whole Round of 16 was at 1000G, starting from Frieza vs. Goku. Raichi warned him beforehand: If you step into the ring without Hildegarn's aura, you'll be instantly killed. Wow, my bad. But I still wouldn't think raichi would survive 1000g if he got knocked off his ball as there's been no indication that he possesses any more strength or durability than any common tuffle. His only visible implants seem to be for his brain only. I would guess coming from planet plant and his ability to hold himself up against vegeta that he might be a bit stronger than Tapion but not enough to survive 1000g. I agree 100%. I don't think Raichi can withstand 1000 G. I don't think Goku should, either, at least in base form. Super Saiyan? Sure, but base, and having giggles touching the wall? I have my doubts. Vegeta trained in 450 G in baseform. I think he'd more used to it than Goku, but he still struggled mighty. Yeah, he's stronger now, but how much stronger can one's baseform get? Salagir said a base Saiyan can't be stronger than Frieza. I guess Vegetto and Bra are exceptions.
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Post by jkrevan on Sept 22, 2016 1:35:32 GMT
I always found that limitation kinda stupid...
also, i really doubt they'll raise gravity again, gravity on DB only serves for a gimmick joke anyway.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 22, 2016 4:33:04 GMT
Just thought of this tin hat theory and thought I put it down as a prediction.
What if the Grand Supreme Kai is one of the main antagonists. East Kai thinks Buu is manipulating him and that is why he let Buu stay in the tournament, but what if he's not. What if Kai chose to let Buu stay in for his own reasons. I don't think he is an outright villain, but he might just be anti-villain. This tournament is just an excuse for him to get control of multiverse to eliminate all threats in order to make all universes peaceful as U1. Maybe he made a alliance with Buu to help him out. Maybe he even has an alliance with XXI of either his universe or U5 version of him. Someone is helping XXI in the tournament. It would be a cool twist if we saw GSK was the benefactor. Plus we don't know who tipped off the Kais to Bibidi was making Buu. What if it was a defeated or weakened XXI of U1? It might not work out for him, but I think the gods taking an active role in mortal affairs will have some consequences in this story. I think like the idea of becoming control freak and not trusting mortals to live their own lives would be a reasonable development.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 22, 2016 12:36:27 GMT
Ah, such is the logic of the thieves. Nope. Such is the frustration of people who are sick of this discussion and who decided to make their frustration clear. I don't debate to change minds—I know that's almost always pointless. It's nice when it happens, especially for something that actually matters, but it's not why I debate. I debate because I enjoy intelligent discussion and because I, for one, want a chance to hear the other side's argument, in case I'm wrong. When a debate completely fails to provide that, I get frustrated. When I get frustrated, not only do I waste time and effort on something which makes my life less pleasant, the discussion makes others' lives less pleasant. That shit got me banned from the most interesting online community I've ever been part of, so I've been trying to cut down on it. This is me making clear that the argument is one of the ones I'm cutting out. I have no intention of saying anything further on this Hirudegarn issue. That's that. If you don't like it, go screw yourself. I don't give a damn. Now let's stop derailing this thread and get back to predicting interesting stuff.
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Post by Andres on Sept 22, 2016 13:12:11 GMT
All are helpless against the mighty stop._ But you bring up a good point: how do you hurt Hildegarn if he never comes out of smoke mode? Is there a limit to how long he can stay smokey? Does it use up his power? Cell only was able to kill Hildegarn because he tricked him into thinking the fight was over, after all--even sucking Hildegarn into him didn't really do anything. With Raichi controlling Hildegarn, the monster would never make that mistake against Gast. This might actually be a real game-deciding issue; Gast might be too strong for any of Raichi's ghosts to threaten him, but finding a way around Hildegarn's smoke might be tricky...unless he has some magical power to force Hildegarn to stay in physical form?
It's funny how DBM's Hildegarn, despite being way weaker than the movie version, might be even more broken if there's no limit to his smoke-form. How do you kill smoke? How do you kill Raichi if he's in the smoke? I think the deal here will be the 30 seconds rule. If Raichi is in smoke the whole time, the Vargas will start a countdown for him, as he's "Out of sight". He needs to keep coming back, or else he loses. Buu loses because he was out of sight hiding inside a magical noodle bowl. If Raichi goes all Hildegarn-Smokey-Phasing-Thingie for more than 30 seconds, he's out.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 22, 2016 15:50:19 GMT
Andres,
Yes, that could be the case, but I suspect that due to the way Tapion was allowed to hide within hildegarn that the rules are interpreted to mean that willfully donning armor that fully obscures your presence does not constitute being out of view. As it is known he is within hildegarn and his smoke is visible it is assumed he is present and still capable of fighting. I would assume that if all his ghosts are defeated and he just continues to stay in smoke for 30 seconds then he would lose due to being rendered unable to fight.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 22, 2016 15:58:31 GMT
Ah, such is the logic of the thieves. Nope. Such is the frustration of people who are sick of this discussion and who decided to make their frustration clear. I don't debate to change minds—I know that's almost always pointless. It's nice when it happens, especially for something that actually matters, but it's not why I debate. I debate because I enjoy intelligent discussion and because I, for one, want a chance to hear the other side's argument, in case I'm wrong. When a debate completely fails to provide that, I get frustrated. When I get frustrated, not only do I waste time and effort on something which makes my life less pleasant, the discussion makes others' lives less pleasant. That shit got me banned from the most interesting online community I've ever been part of, so I've been trying to cut down on it. This is me making clear that the argument is one of the ones I'm cutting out. I have no intention of saying anything further on this Hirudegarn issue. That's that. If you don't like it, go screw yourself. I don't give a damn. Now let's stop derailing this thread and get back to predicting interesting stuff. So if I understood right, frustration makes you accuse other persons of things you're doing (ie not reading whole posts?). Either way, you are not getting banned here unless you post porn, give instructions how to make a nuclear bomb or anything like that. No need to feel so threatened or defensive. This convo would have ended in two posts if you had expressed yourself more clearly, but we went from: -Tapion and Hildegarn inexistent soul connection To... -Memory of ghosts -Raichi's Capabilities -Hatchiyack's modus operandi -Some bullshit about breathable oxygen All were documented properly with examples from either the novel or comic, not only by me but also by Ashanark. I am also not interested in winning, only in providing info and screenshots so to spare people time to collect missing links. Information which you never provided, btw, so I don't see what other intention your debate could have other than say "we were wrong". Or if we want to get more simple: I do it just for the fun of it (ofc this fun ends when people reply long posts ONLY with a smiley, one liners or even worse: one worders which were precisely the problem we had here.) It wouldn't matter anyway if you (or I) wanted to win, as long as valuable information was shared from both sides (which sadly, thorougly lacked in yours). Besides, remember we are in public, this isn't only between me and you but for anyone to read and reach their own conclusions. If you didn't notice, people kept discussing (and likely will stay doing the same or increase considering it's precisely the next fight, and one people in general is most interested in) other things regarding to Hildegarn (such as ring-outs, smoke time) without us even continuing to participate. Likewise, if someone which was not posting previously wants to add info we missed on the topic, he's welcome.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 22, 2016 16:02:09 GMT
Just thought of this tin hat theory and thought I put it down as a prediction. What if the Grand Supreme Kai is one of the main antagonists. East Kai thinks Buu is manipulating him and that is why he let Buu stay in the tournament, but what if he's not. What if Kai chose to let Buu stay in for his own reasons. I don't think he is an outright villain, but he might just be anti-villain. This tournament is just an excuse for him to get control of multiverse to eliminate all threats in order to make all universes peaceful as U1. Maybe he made a alliance with Buu to help him out. Maybe he even has an alliance with XXI of either his universe or U5 version of him. Someone is helping XXI in the tournament. It would be a cool twist if we saw GSK was the benefactor. Plus we don't know who tipped off the Kais to Bibidi was making Buu. What if it was a defeated or weakened XXI of U1? It might not work out for him, but I think the gods taking an active role in mortal affairs will have some consequences in this story. I think like the idea of becoming control freak and not trusting mortals to live their own lives would be a reasonable development. There could be something there for sure. I'd say the key here is that north kai says he looked into his soul and everything was normal. To me, that's a pretty strong statement that he is absolutely doing what he's doing with his own free will. The one flaw though would be that there doesn't seem like there's enough setup in advance to suggest such a strange "ozymandias" like figure. And why keep such a dangerous game a secret amongst his closest disciples while being at least somewhat open about it with a wildcard like buu?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 22, 2016 16:13:53 GMT
Just thought of this tin hat theory and thought I put it down as a prediction. What if the Grand Supreme Kai is one of the main antagonists. East Kai thinks Buu is manipulating him and that is why he let Buu stay in the tournament, but what if he's not. What if Kai chose to let Buu stay in for his own reasons. I don't think he is an outright villain, but he might just be anti-villain. This tournament is just an excuse for him to get control of multiverse to eliminate all threats in order to make all universes peaceful as U1. Maybe he made a alliance with Buu to help him out. Maybe he even has an alliance with XXI of either his universe or U5 version of him. Someone is helping XXI in the tournament. It would be a cool twist if we saw GSK was the benefactor. Plus we don't know who tipped off the Kais to Bibidi was making Buu. What if it was a defeated or weakened XXI of U1? It might not work out for him, but I think the gods taking an active role in mortal affairs will have some consequences in this story. I think like the idea of becoming control freak and not trusting mortals to live their own lives would be a reasonable development. There could be something there for sure. I'd say the key here is that north kai says he looked into his soul and everything was normal. To me, that's a pretty strong statement that he is absolutely doing what he's doing with his own free will. The one flaw though would be that there doesn't seem like there's enough setup in advance to suggest such a strange "ozymandias" like figure. And why keep such a dangerous game a secret amongst his closest disciples while being at least somewhat open about it with a wildcard like buu? This may sound like some far fetched bullshit, but we have to keep in mind Supreme Kai was one of the main (if not the only one) reasons Buu developed a personality (other than kill kill kill destroy) and speech (other than screams). It could be that they're somehow connected psionically, in a weird way. Such as in Uub and Buu, but on a slightly different form. Perhaps it's genuine empathy out of shared components.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 22, 2016 16:27:48 GMT
Khan,
According to saligir, he destroyed his brain which I would assume made buu retarded and gave him nothing intellectually from himself. There still could be some time of spiritual link for sure. I find it surprising that when buu absorbs the z fighters he's instantly changed into their thoughts and persona just with his own evil bend but when he absorbed south kai there seemed to be no mental change in him whatsoever even though he's an "educated athlete" and presumably far more intelligent and knowledgable than any earthlings or saiyan. His rampaging animalism could be from the conflict of kai and majin magic thou so who knows.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 22, 2016 16:38:28 GMT
Khan, According to saligir, he destroyed his brain which I would assume made buu retarded and gave him nothing intellectually from himself. There still could be some time of spiritual link for sure. I find it surprising that when buu absorbs the z fighters he's instantly changed into their thoughts and persona just with his own evil bend but when he absorbed south kai there seemed to be no mental change in him whatsoever even though he's an "educated athlete" and presumably far more intelligent and knowledgable than any earthlings or saiyan. His rampaging animalism could be from the conflict of kai and majin magic thou so who knows. Oh yeah, I remember that "brain kamikaze" funny reasoning. But there's still the fact that neither Kid or Muscular Buu could speak. After absorbing the Fat Kai (with brain or not) he gained the ability to speak and reason (even if to the degree of a kid). I really wish we get another U4 Buu special with flashbacks explaining all his mysteries. Assuming the DBM canon (he blew his brain) then possibly if he hadn't done so, Fat Buu would have all the superior god knowledge of the Kais and likely could create life and planets (that's the function of Kaioshins).
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 22, 2016 23:44:48 GMT
So if I understood right, frustration makes you accuse other persons of things you're doing (ie not reading whole posts?). No, you understood wrong. I only read the first sentence of your post because I recognized that continuing this debate would not be pleasant for anyone, so I shouldn't drag it out. (Un)luckily, you were willing to drag it for me. I don't particularly give a damn about this forum. This isn't about you, it's about me and how I want to act in the future. The first step to acting a given way in the future is acting like that now. And lucky you, DBM is the only community I've been interacting with somewhat regularly where I frequently get into debates, so you get to be my "stop before things go bad" practice. This is just the first time any of the devolved debates I've been involved in have been directed at me, personally, rather than involving a crowd on both sides, so it's the first time I've felt the need to say that I'm stepping out instead of going quietly. Now if you don't have any more stupid questions about why I don't want to get into stupid arguments, can we get back to something interesting? I am assuming Tapion's home gravity is 1g. During his Krillin fight, the gravity was at 100g. Tapion could survive even if he was crawling without Hildegarn's aura. Raichi's home planet is 10g (Planet Vegeta) so 1000g would be the equivalent of what 100g was to Tapion. Assuming that one's home planet's gravity is the one thing that determines how well you do in the ring, sure, but what matters is your overall strength. Tapion is a warrior and Raichi is a scientist; I'd be amazed if the former wasn't stronger. Where was that implication? What if the Grand Supreme Kai is one of the main antagonists. East Kai thinks Buu is manipulating him and that is why he let Buu stay in the tournament, but what if he's not. What if Kai chose to let Buu stay in for his own reasons. I don't think he is an outright villain, but he might just be anti-villain. This tournament is just an excuse for him to get control of multiverse to eliminate all threats in order to make all universes peaceful as U1. Maybe he made a alliance with Buu to help him out. Maybe he even has an alliance with XXI of either his universe or U5 version of him. Someone is helping XXI in the tournament. It would be a cool twist if we saw GSK was the benefactor. Plus we don't know who tipped off the Kais to Bibidi was making Buu. What if it was a defeated or weakened XXI of U1? It might not work out for him, but I think the gods taking an active role in mortal affairs will have some consequences in this story. I think like the idea of becoming control freak and not trusting mortals to live their own lives would be a reasonable development. It's an interesting idea, but the kaioshins have not only brought evil people back, but even let them go home in peace (U6's Bojack and crew, and possibly the U10 Saiyans if they're as bad as in most universes.)
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 22, 2016 23:55:22 GMT
So if I understood right, frustration makes you accuse other persons of things you're doing (ie not reading whole posts?). No, you understood wrong. I only read the first sentence of your post because I recognized that continuing this debate would not be pleasant for anyone, so I shouldn't drag it out. (Un)luckily, you were willing to drag it for me. I don't particularly give a damn about this forum. This isn't about you, it's about me and how I want to act in the future. The first step to acting a given way in the future is acting like that now. And lucky you, DBM is the only community I've been interacting with somewhat regularly where I frequently get into debates, so you get to be my "stop before things go bad" practice. This is just the first time any of the devolved debates I've been involved in have been directed at me, personally, rather than involving a crowd on both sides, so it's the first time I've felt the need to say that I'm stepping out instead of going quietly. Now if you don't have any more stupid questions about why I don't want to get into stupid arguments, can we get back to something interesting? I am assuming Tapion's home gravity is 1g. During his Krillin fight, the gravity was at 100g. Tapion could survive even if he was crawling without Hildegarn's aura. Raichi's home planet is 10g (Planet Vegeta) so 1000g would be the equivalent of what 100g was to Tapion. Assuming that one's home planet's gravity is the one thing that determines how well you do in the ring, sure, but what matters is your overall strength. Tapion is a warrior and Raichi is a scientist; I'd be amazed if the former wasn't stronger. Where was that implication? Correct me if I'm wrong but I did not ask any question in my previous posts. I only sarcastically poked fun again (rhetorically, I give that to you), at you accusing others of reading poorly when you yourself do it pretty bad. Also, the point of view does not hold any more value just because the side supporting it is bigger. That's a fallacy. But otherwise fair enough. Here is the implication: 'You are way stronger than me AND can also use your ghosts'.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 23, 2016 0:35:09 GMT
Here is the implication: 'You are way stronger than me AND can also use your ghosts'. Not to mention:Raichi himself has telekinetic powers capable of moving rocks that Tapion couldn't budge. I will be honest and say that we haven't been shown if Raichi can actually make energy blasts or fly like Saiyans can, but in a straight fight (no ghosts, no Hildegarn), Raichi would beat Tapion just with telekinesis. And that's not even taking into account his shield, which even pre-tournament could stop Hildegarn. Andres Good point; that'd be a good way to limit Hildegarn's possible broken-ness. Though I think fooshin was right to bring up that since Raichi would be using the smoke defensively, it wouldn't count as being out of sight...but it does makes me wonder if the Vargas have any anti-cheese rules in play. If Raichi pretty obviously couldn't beat Gast but also couldn't be hurt because he was Hildegarn-camping, would the Vargas give the win to Gast?
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 23, 2016 1:44:19 GMT
Just thought of this tin hat theory and thought I put it down as a prediction. What if the Grand Supreme Kai is one of the main antagonists. East Kai thinks Buu is manipulating him and that is why he let Buu stay in the tournament, but what if he's not. What if Kai chose to let Buu stay in for his own reasons. I don't think he is an outright villain, but he might just be anti-villain. This tournament is just an excuse for him to get control of multiverse to eliminate all threats in order to make all universes peaceful as U1. Maybe he made a alliance with Buu to help him out. Maybe he even has an alliance with XXI of either his universe or U5 version of him. Someone is helping XXI in the tournament. It would be a cool twist if we saw GSK was the benefactor. Plus we don't know who tipped off the Kais to Bibidi was making Buu. What if it was a defeated or weakened XXI of U1? It might not work out for him, but I think the gods taking an active role in mortal affairs will have some consequences in this story. I think like the idea of becoming control freak and not trusting mortals to live their own lives would be a reasonable development. There could be something there for sure. I'd say the key here is that north kai says he looked into his soul and everything was normal. To me, that's a pretty strong statement that he is absolutely doing what he's doing with his own free will. The one flaw though would be that there doesn't seem like there's enough setup in advance to suggest such a strange "ozymandias" like figure. And why keep such a dangerous game a secret amongst his closest disciples while being at least somewhat open about it with a wildcard like buu? He might be keeping it a secret from the other Kais, because he is unsure if they will agree with his plan or not. If he had a such an extreme plan and told them about it, but they disagreed they would watch him like a hawk form no on making it harder for him to move. Perhaps trying to form an alliance with Buu is because he recognizes having a wild card on your side and predicting their betrayal might be better than working against him and having him ally with the others. Or perhaps now that knows Gast's technique he is confident he has a means to stop Buu (or perhaps he has even read Babidi's mind and knows the sealing spell himself). Or he may just want Buu to stay in to cause trouble later so he can carry on with his plans uninterrupted. It's an interesting idea, but the kaioshins have not only brought evil people back, but even let them go home in peace (U6's Bojack and crew, and possibly the U10 Saiyans if they're as bad as in most universes.) There could be a few reasons for this. 1. The original plan was to bring everyone back after the tournament ended. After one of the Gohans pleaded to bring everyone back earlier the others Kais eventually agreed. It might be suspicious for him to object, especially after the others are questioning his last move to allow U4 Buu to stay in the tournament after the stunt he pulled. He might have been forced to adapt for the sake of the bigger picture rather than risk his plan over a minor issue. It is possible when the tournament ended he wasn't going to bring anyone back and enact his plan then and there. 2. Grand Supreme Kai's master plan is so big in scale and or work that it doesn't matter if he allowed people to be brought back earlier and he'll take care of evils later. 3. We don't know what happened to all the characters that returned home. I say all, because I know someone on here will point out the novel gave glimpses to U10 when they went home. It might be possible that U6 for example with Bojack could have had something happen to them, like the bird folks dropping Bojack off in a star/sun in his home universe with none of the contestants or us the audience any wiser.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 23, 2016 3:35:58 GMT
Here is the implication: 'You are way stronger than me AND can also use your ghosts'. Not to mention:Raichi himself has telekinetic powers capable of moving rocks that Tapion couldn't budge. I will be honest and say that we haven't been shown if Raichi can actually make energy blasts or fly like Saiyans can, but in a straight fight (no ghosts, no Hildegarn), Raichi would beat Tapion just with telekinesis. And that's not even taking into account his shield, which even pre-tournament could stop Hildegarn. Andres Good point; that'd be a good way to limit Hildegarn's possible broken-ness. Though I think fooshin was right to bring up that since Raichi would be using the smoke defensively, it wouldn't count as being out of sight...but it does makes me wonder if the Vargas have any anti-cheese rules in play. If Raichi pretty obviously couldn't beat Gast but also couldn't be hurt because he was Hildegarn-camping, would the Vargas give the win to Gast?Interesting. As the rocks fall over Tapion just when the other special ends, I didn't initially read this panel you posted correctly. It does seem like Raichi is indeed using telekinesis. I am quite surprised of this TBH. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of anything? But IMO, if Cell could hurt Hildegarn using a little bit of feigning, so can Gast, except it'd be 10x more complicated due to the brains of Raichi + all additional ghosts. Son PanIt was specified after everyone was revived (included Bojack and Zangya) that there was going to be a final adventure on U6 on a future special. IMO, Cute magic chicks and Boujin/Zangya tag team Bojack and Bujin lives happily forever having 5 women for himself.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 23, 2016 3:59:01 GMT
I'll post some more thoughts later but just wanted to point out real quick that after a reread of the 2 chapters I thought it was kind of lame that raichi says that whatever you do you can't bring back the dead but after Tapion says great, I can bring back my brother I'll join the tournament, Raichi says nope, my goals complete, no reason to compete.
Also that weakling Tapion has no problem slicing hildegarn in half.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 23, 2016 4:37:59 GMT
I'll post some more thoughts later but just wanted to point out real quick that after a reread of the 2 chapters I thought it was kind of lame that raichi says that whatever you do you can't bring back the dead but after Tapion says great, I can bring back my brother I'll join the tournament, Raichi says nope, my goals complete, no reason to compete. Also that weakling Tapion has no problem slicing hildegarn in half. What Raichi said to Tapion seemed hopeless, but it was probably empathic (making reference to the dead tuffles) and showing understanding of his pain of loss. When Raichi says his goal is complete, to me it shows he's not a person that wants to fight just because. Meaning, if there were no Saiyans to exterminate, he wouldn't start a fight. And rightly so, after learning there was going to be saiyans, he quickly changed his mind. As for Tapion, I don't believe it has to do with him, but the "sword" which is magical. SSJ Kid Trunks on the U16 novel was able to behead Hildegarn with Tapion's sword as well.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 23, 2016 4:54:17 GMT
What Raichi said to Tapion seemed hopeless, but it was probably empathic (making reference to the dead tuffles). When Raichi says his goal is complete, to me it shows he's not a person that wants to fight just because. Meaning, if there were no Saiyans to exterminate, he wouldn't start a fight. And rightly so, after learning there was going to be saiyans, he quickly changed his mind. As for Tapion, I don't believe it has to do with him, but the "sword" which is magical. SSJ Kid Trunks on the U16 novel was able to behead Hildegarn with Tapion's sword as well. Too bad Cold didn't face Tapion. His theory about sword being special would have been correct then. Poor bastard never catches a break.
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