??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 19:47:53 GMT
All are helpless against the mighty stop.
But you bring up a good point: how do you hurt Hildegarn if he never comes out of smoke mode? Is there a limit to how long he can stay smokey? Does it use up his power? Cell only was able to kill Hildegarn because he tricked him into thinking the fight was over, after all--even sucking Hildegarn into him didn't really do anything. With Raichi controlling Hildegarn, the monster would never make that mistake against Gast. This might actually be a real game-deciding issue; Gast might be too strong for any of Raichi's ghosts to threaten him, but finding a way around Hildegarn's smoke might be tricky...unless he has some magical power to force Hildegarn to stay in physical form?
It's funny how DBM's Hildegarn, despite being way weaker than the movie version, might be even more broken if there's no limit to his smoke-form. How do you kill smoke? How do you kill Raichi if he's in the smoke? Hildegarn is also able to use some sort of Instant transmission. In U16 novel (can't remember which page and can't be arsed to check, especially if I only receive "so what?" as an answer  ) when Hildegarn rampages earth, Vegetto teleports him to some far away planet. When Vegetto is back to earth, Hildegarn teleports back from smoke on earth again. |
|
??????
|
Post by fooshin on Sept 16, 2016 20:12:12 GMT
Khan,
If all that is required to kill hildegarn is to attack him when he's not expecting it then I think it's very likely gast or bra could easily do so. Try to picture what he did to cooler. Yes, sauza's no ssj3 but we still don't know how powerful gast really is. I know bra at even ssj1 would blow by vegeta no question. Throw in some after image move which is probably child's play for gast and you got one dead beast.
Regarding the gravity: it's a reasonable assumption the gravity killed him and not his connection to Hildegarn. That being said I'll make some more assumptions about the gravity. Let's assume Tapion is used to 1g and raichi is used to 10g (which I believe is what his home planet was at) even thou raichi and Tapion lived together on the same planet for years later on. That would mean the 100g that Tapion dies to would be the equivalent of the 1000g that raichi would also die to. That does assume he can't get his sheild up in time which is possible especially if he's thrown off his donkey like before. And I still maintain that it's highly unlikely he could maintain a shield within a monster that is constantly become insubstantial. I don't believe raichi has any special augmentation that give him any super strength or endurance but maybe I'm wrong on that.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Azoth on Sept 16, 2016 20:16:56 GMT
I haven't seen Wrath of the Dragon, but I don't know if Hirudegarn can do anything while he's smoke. If it's a purely defensive technique that prevents H from interacting with the physical world, using it indefinitely would bring the match to a standstill.
|
|
??????
|
Post by fooshin on Sept 16, 2016 20:45:02 GMT
Oh yeah, and to your point number 2. I don't think he really charged up any kind of super attack. Looks like he just supermaned his way right thru him.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Sept 16, 2016 21:11:53 GMT
when Hildegarn rampages earth, Vegetto teleports him to some far away planet. When Vegetto is back to earth, Hildegarn teleports back from smoke on earth again.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Sept 16, 2016 21:43:42 GMT
All are helpless against the mighty stop._ But you bring up a good point: how do you hurt Hildegarn if he never comes out of smoke mode? Is there a limit to how long he can stay smokey? Does it use up his power? Cell only was able to kill Hildegarn because he tricked him into thinking the fight was over, after all--even sucking Hildegarn into him didn't really do anything. With Raichi controlling Hildegarn, the monster would never make that mistake against Gast. This might actually be a real game-deciding issue; Gast might be too strong for any of Raichi's ghosts to threaten him, but finding a way around Hildegarn's smoke might be tricky...unless he has some magical power to force Hildegarn to stay in physical form?
It's funny how DBM's Hildegarn, despite being way weaker than the movie version, might be even more broken if there's no limit to his smoke-form. How do you kill smoke? How do you kill Raichi if he's in the smoke? Assuming there's no limit, I could see a feasible tactic being to create air pressure and blow him out of the arena. He either reforms so you can fight him, or loses via ring out. |
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 22:03:57 GMT
Problem are certain Vargas' technicalities (or lack thereof). For example: Raichi's Ghosts are considered an extension of himself. So even if you blow him and Hildegarn out of the visible arena and surroundings, it wouldn't count as a ring-out as long as there are still active ghosts fighting.
Referring to the above, Raichi's previous match started without him touching the ring. Ghost Cold's family did that for him.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Dr. Wheelo on Sept 16, 2016 22:31:45 GMT
There are no ring outs in DBM.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Sept 16, 2016 22:56:27 GMT
Assuming there's no limit, I could see a feasible tactic being to create air pressure and blow him out of the arena. He either reforms so you can fight him, or loses via ring out.
You know, with all this conversation Ghost Hildegarn's been getting it'd be really funny if Gast vs. Raichi rolls around and Raichi doesn't even use him. |
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 23:38:47 GMT
Further evidence to disprove the ill-defined "bond" between Hildegarn and his "summoners"  U16 Chapter 24.And, further proof Hildegarn can do some sort of smoke-instant transmission. Similar to Janemba's ability in the movie.  U16 Chapter 23. This also indirectly gives another reason why Hildegarn is very good for defense but not for offense: inability to fly. His lack of flight naturally makes easy for opponents to get ouside his attack range. He can't charge towards a flying opponent (but can become smoke and appear in front of them in the air) and otherwise can't be used for an aerial fight. |
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Sept 17, 2016 0:26:36 GMT
There are no ring outs in DBM. A ring out is exactly how both Broly and Vegito got eliminated. Bra also used a ring out to win one of her matches. Go far enough away from the arena and they start counting down. While perhaps not the "technical" definition of the term, arguing any less is mere semantics. Problem are certain Vargas' technicalities (or lack thereof). For example: Raichi's Ghosts are considered an extension of himself. So even if you blow him and Hildegarn out of the visible arena and surroundings, it wouldn't count as a ring-out as long as there are still active ghosts fighting. Referring to the above, Raichi's previous match started without him touching the ring. Ghost Cold's family did that for him. I mean, I'm operating under the premise that Raichi is going up against an opponent who won't have a problem with Raichi's ghosts as it is (Bra annoyingly comes to mind), whose main annoyance will be dealing with Hirudegarn's smoke. |
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 17, 2016 0:33:41 GMT
There are no ring outs in DBM. A ring out is exactly how both Broly and Vegito got eliminated. Bra also used a ring out to win one of her matches. Go far enough away from the arena and they start counting down. Problem are certain Vargas' technicalities (or lack thereof). For example: Raichi's Ghosts are considered an extension of himself. So even if you blow him and Hildegarn out of the visible arena and surroundings, it wouldn't count as a ring-out as long as there are still active ghosts fighting. Referring to the above, Raichi's previous match started without him touching the ring. Ghost Cold's family did that for him. I mean, I'm operating under the premise that Raichi is going up against an opponent who won't have a problem with Raichi's ghosts as it is (Bra or Gast), whose main annoyance will be dealing with Hirudegarn's smoke. Individually none of Raichi's ghosts are a problem to either of the following opponents. What comes next, and what makes his fighting style so interesting is the crazy team-ups, formations and ruses he can make when his ghosts cooperate. I'd think Raichi's inside Hildegarn + Vegeta SSJ3 + Idle Legendary SSJ Broly powering up + GodBladeMan + Cell JR could pose a dangerous enough formation for either Bra or Gast. |
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Sept 17, 2016 0:36:35 GMT
+ Idle Legendary SSJ Broly powering up + GodBladeMan + Cell JR What exactly is the recharge rate for his ghosts anyway? I know there is one, just not sure how long it is. He might not even be able to use these three at all considering U13 Vegeta obliterated them and they have to regenerate. |
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 17, 2016 0:41:50 GMT
+ Idle Legendary SSJ Broly powering up + GodBladeMan + Cell JR What exactly is the recharge rate for his ghosts anyway? I know there is one, just not sure how long it is. He might not even be able to use these three at all considering U13 Vegeta obliterated them and they have to regenerate. That was never specified, nor the way it worked was explained, BUT...  We can safely assume he will be able to use all of them. |
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Sept 17, 2016 0:52:01 GMT
Ah yeah, forgot about that. The pains of the long waiting times.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Sept 17, 2016 3:31:24 GMT
It's a shame that he and all the other characters who couldn't catch up didn't spend a month and change training with the guy who taught Goku that technique. Oh wait...[/quote]Sir, Piccolo was there for six days. It took him a month to get there. By the rules of geekdom I must act super condescending and act like knowing that tidbit makes me superior to you in every way from the safety of my computer screen.  In all seriousness I like the idea of Raichi using Hildegarn being used as defense for Raichi, especially if Raichi can transform him into its final form. I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet. |
|
??????
|
Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 18, 2016 20:32:12 GMT
Did you really have to write such lenghty post just to say "No U"? ... You know, I was starting to wonder if you people were even reading my damn posts, but this about seals it. I didn't care much for this debate in the first place, but this is the last straw. |
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 18, 2016 21:45:14 GMT
Did you really have to write such lenghty post just to say "No U"? ... You know, I was starting to wonder if you people were even reading my damn posts, but this about seals it. I didn't care much for this debate in the first place, but this is the last straw. Ah, such is the logic of the thieves. Considering how much lenghty, point by point replies you got, with citations and screenshots included (along rehashed information which we had already exposed before in the conversation.), in comparison to your vague, dismissive "complaints", "so what?'s" and "so?" this projection is pretty audacious. One would think replying to sorted information with just "so" and "so what?" is more indicative of ignoring (ie not reading) what is written, than breaking down posts point by point with actual information from the comic and novel. You said "Hildegarn is bound to Tapion's spirit" (you actually said this). We proved you it was not. (we showed Raditz handling him, and the fact that the other half of Hildy was alive and contained inside Hoi after Minoshia died)
You then went on circles saying things like "Buu gave him this ability", "Raichi can't do it just because", "Ghosts don't have memories", "Raichi doesn't have network contact with his ghosts" that we all also proved wrong (mostly Ashanark but I also contributed). Sorry man, no offense meant, but that you don't know how to redact a post and express your ideas for shit, doesn't mean we're not reading your posts. It just means that you're unable to bring forward whatever idea you had in mind into comprehensible text. (or that you're the one who in fact isn't reading anything of what we're writting.) And to reach the hyperbole of irony of this situation, you just quoted a very lenghty ( over 15 paragraphs, point by point) post of mine into A SINGLE SENTENCE only to say "boohohooo you didn't read what I said, I'm out of here now", again, implicitly (or explicitly) implying you didn't read anything of what I replied after that initial "No U" complaint. |
|
??????
|
Post by Andres on Sept 19, 2016 16:57:18 GMT
Regarding the gravity: it's a reasonable assumption the gravity killed him and not his connection to Hildegarn. That being said I'll make some more assumptions about the gravity. Let's assume Tapion is used to 1g and raichi is used to 10g (which I believe is what his home planet was at) even thou raichi and Tapion lived together on the same planet for years later on. That would mean the 100g that Tapion dies to would be the equivalent of the 1000g that raichi would also die to. That does assume he can't get his sheild up in time which is possible especially if he's thrown off his donkey like before. And I still maintain that it's highly unlikely he could maintain a shield within a monster that is constantly become insubstantial. I don't believe raichi has any special augmentation that give him any super strength or endurance but maybe I'm wrong on that. Tapion died at 1000G. The whole Round of 16 was at 1000G, starting from Frieza vs. Goku. Raichi warned him beforehand: If you step into the ring without Hildegarn's aura, you'll be instantly killed. |
|
??????
|
Post by fooshin on Sept 19, 2016 19:29:12 GMT
Regarding the gravity: it's a reasonable assumption the gravity killed him and not his connection to Hildegarn. That being said I'll make some more assumptions about the gravity. Let's assume Tapion is used to 1g and raichi is used to 10g (which I believe is what his home planet was at) even thou raichi and Tapion lived together on the same planet for years later on. That would mean the 100g that Tapion dies to would be the equivalent of the 1000g that raichi would also die to. That does assume he can't get his sheild up in time which is possible especially if he's thrown off his donkey like before. And I still maintain that it's highly unlikely he could maintain a shield within a monster that is constantly become insubstantial. I don't believe raichi has any special augmentation that give him any super strength or endurance but maybe I'm wrong on that. Tapion died at 1000G. The whole Round of 16 was at 1000G, starting from Frieza vs. Goku. Raichi warned him beforehand: If you step into the ring without Hildegarn's aura, you'll be instantly killed. Wow, my bad. But I still wouldn't think raichi would survive 1000g if he got knocked off his ball as there's been no indication that he possesses any more strength or durability than any common tuffle. His only visible implants seem to be for his brain only. I would guess coming from planet plant and his ability to hold himself up against vegeta that he might be a bit stronger than Tapion but not enough to survive 1000g. |
|
) when Hildegarn rampages earth, Vegetto teleports him to some far away planet. When Vegetto is back to earth, Hildegarn teleports back from smoke on earth again.
