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Post by Son Pan on Oct 31, 2017 1:37:37 GMT
Outside of Goku and Vegeta no mortals appear to have obtained it and yet some of them are still just as strong, like Freeza, Hit, Jiren etc. The series hasn't ever gone into detail on what makes god ki different or shown how it can be harnessed. Outside of the god forms they haven't done much else for the series. Is it a wasted concept that is dead already, since outside of Goku and Vegeta it doesn't seem crucial to reaching these high levels?
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Post by Axalon on Oct 31, 2017 1:59:53 GMT
Outside of Goku and Vegeta no mortals appear to have obtained it and yet some of them are still just as strong, like Freeza, Hit, Jiren etc. The series hasn't ever gone into detail on what makes god ki different or shown how it can be harnessed. Outside of the god forms they haven't done much else for the series. Is it a wasted concept that is dead already, since outside of Goku and Vegeta it doesn't seem crucial to reaching these high levels? I think it is. God ki became a useless concept ever since Frieza came along and was stronger than god ki with his Golden Form and his boatloads of normal ki. Ultimately it kind of makes Goku and Vegeta look like chumps who took a shortcut when all these other fighters in later story arcs just start attaining the same level of power they did if not higher without resorting to the cheap shortcut of the SSG ritual/whatever Vegeta did with Whis. Frieza, Hit and Jiren just show that normal ki can achieve the exact same results IF NOT BETTER than god ki. The only purpose god ki serves now is to shock the pantheon of gods that Goku/Vegeta have the same type of ki they do, even though Jiren should by all rights shock them even more by surpassing that with the sheer amount of power he possesses. The manga on the other hand seems to be making god ki more of a requirement for fighters to compete with Goku/Vegeta. Toppo has god ki, Hit failed badly against SSB Goku since he doesn't have god ki and Zamasu just naturally had it in the first place because he was a god anyway. Frieza is still the wild card in all of this of course since the manga skipped over his RoF arc so as to not fall even further behind the anime than it already is, but either he'll ALSO have achieved god ki, SOMEHOW, or he'll be like the anime and just have boatloads of normal ki.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 31, 2017 23:40:03 GMT
I know Dragon Ball isn't really good with detailed information, but it really seemed like god ki was going to be a new concept the franchise would explore. They added the new god forms in Freeza movie. Now it just feels like they are done with it. We still don't even know what is the difference between it and regular ki or why Goku can sense King Kai and Supreme Kai's ki no problem, despite them being official gods who should also possess god ki. There was potential to better define ki in general for more story ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 23:59:03 GMT
I don't mean to intrude with my bluntness, but did anyone seriously think God Ki wasn't a hilariously pointless addition the very moment it was introduced? From the get go I knew it would amount to nothing and am honestly surprised it is even still a thing.
To answer the threads question then yes, it is definitely a wasted concept but in a shounen that has had power scaling difficulties for over two decades now it was always going to happen. Let's see if this Ultra Instinct joins it in the wasted concept basket or if they actually join forces in order to remain relevant in among all these new warriors with just plain high power levels and/or OP techniques...
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Post by Axalon on Nov 1, 2017 4:25:20 GMT
I know Dragon Ball isn't really good with detailed information, but it really seemed like god ki was going to be a new concept the franchise would explore. They added the new god forms in Freeza movie. Now it just feels like they are done with it. We still don't even know what is the difference between it and regular ki or why Goku can sense King Kai and Supreme Kai's ki no problem, despite them being official gods who should also possess god ki. There was potential to better define ki in general for more story ideas. DB wastes a lot of things. The Oozaru transformation was meant to be a Saiyan's true strength that could only be achieved in the light of the full moon, but then Toriyama got tired of drawing them and they've never grown their tails back since. Kaioken was this amazing new technique that let Goku multiply his power. This was promptly thrown into the trash and only Toei has brought it back in DBS. Super Saiyan was the legendary transformation that allowed Goku to finally surpass the mighty Emperor of the Universe...this is now a Bargain Sale. Rinse and repeat more or less for various ascended forms of Super Saiyan. Fusion was this new mechanic that allowed lesser warriors who normally wouldn't have contributed anything meaningful to actually take on the Big Bad Villain--that got thrown out before the Buu Saga had even finished. Don't even get me started on how it wastes characters. So now Super's brought along things like god ki and god forms and Ultra Instinct...and we're already seeing the former two start slipping by the wayside. God ki became obsolete with fighters equal to them without it and now Ultra Instinct is basically doing to the god forms what Super Saiyan originally did to Kaioken. It's just the nature of DB. New and shiny things will always replace the old.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 18:17:50 GMT
I don't think God ki has necessarily been wasted but rather they didn't really bother to explore it. Gods of Destruction are basically just powerful mortals who have trained to harness God ki. I don't think any mortal could reach their level without it. We've had Golden Freeza and Hit reach SSJG tier without God ki but that's still "low God tier" compared to an actual God of Destruction. It could just be about how different races have different limits. The majority of races in the universe would probably max out at below Buu level with mortal ki while some freak mutations could push it much further but have no chance of reaching a God of Destuction without God ki. In a RoF interview, Toriyama mentioned that Freeza could never surpass Beerus no matter how much he trains so maybe he's implying that's as far as he could go with mortal ki. I'm not sure if Jiren and Toppo have God ki but I assume that's a basic requirement before ever becoming Gods of Destruction-in-training. It's probably also a basic requirement before attempting to learn Ultra Instinct. The Gods of Destruction still struggle with Ultra Instinct so it seems to be much harder to learn than all the training they underwent to learn God ki and reach their position. I think Ultra Instinct is the end of the line for Goku unless they introduce something like Angel ki and he ends up being the first mortal to surpass them.
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Post by FunnyEvil on Nov 1, 2017 18:59:07 GMT
70% of the show's concepts are wasted.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 1, 2017 22:28:53 GMT
I don't think God ki has necessarily been wasted but rather they didn't really bother to explore it. Gods of Destruction are basically just powerful mortals who have trained to harness God ki. I don't think any mortal could reach their level without it. We've had Golden Freeza and Hit reach SSJG tier without God ki but that's still "low God tier" compared to an actual God of Destruction. It could just be about how different races have different limits. The majority of races in the universe would probably max out at below Buu level with mortal ki while some freak mutations could push it much further but have no chance of reaching a God of Destuction without God ki. In a RoF interview, Toriyama mentioned that Freeza could never surpass Beerus no matter how much he trains so maybe he's implying that's as far as he could go with mortal ki. I'm not sure if Jiren and Toppo have God ki but I assume that's a basic requirement before ever becoming Gods of Destruction-in-training. It's probably also a basic requirement before attempting to learn Ultra Instinct. The Gods of Destruction still struggle with Ultra Instinct so it seems to be much harder to learn than all the training they underwent to learn God ki and reach their position. I think Ultra Instinct is the end of the line for Goku unless they introduce something like Angel ki and he ends up being the first mortal to surpass them. It depends. The manga has Toppo with god ki, but so far in the anime neither Toppo nor Jiren have displayed it. We can tell because Goku's used his god forms and we're treated to the usual anime montage of shock and awe from the GoD peanut gallery that a mortal has somehow achieved god ki...but no reaction to anyone else powering up, including the Mighty Jiren.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 1, 2017 23:36:42 GMT
Unless they wish to get around to doing a Dragon Ball Xenoverse arc(s), then I'm gonna assume God Ki will remain a wasted concept. Now I haven't played the Xenoverse games, but I've heard from a good friend of mine who has that God Ki has a few other functions like immunity to telepathy and mind control. If they ever do introduce Xenoverse into Super, that might be fun for them to go more into depth about the differences between regular Ki and God Ki. If not, then I assume God Ki will remain a wasted concept and will be followed shortly by God forms and maybe even by Ultra Instinct if they create something that surpasses even Ultra Instinct. As for surpassing Ultra Instinct, I hope they don't do it so quickly. I'd love for them to explain that Ultra Instinct is the glass ceiling so to speak and have Goku thinking that thru Uub that he could find a way to destroy that glass ceiling and go even further beyond Ultra Instinct. Though I hope they establish Ultra Instinct officially as a technique and not a transformation so that they could pair if with the God forms to prevent them from becoming the next new wasted concept.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 1:03:04 GMT
It depends. The manga has Toppo with god ki, but so far in the anime neither Toppo nor Jiren have displayed it. We can tell because Goku's used his god forms and we're treated to the usual anime montage of shock and awe from the GoD peanut gallery that a mortal has somehow achieved god ki...but no reaction to anyone else powering up, including the Mighty Jiren. Yeah it would help if they clarified whether Jiren has God ki or not. Maybe Toei figured that we would assume he has it due to being training to become a God of Destruction. It's good that Toyotaro went out of his way to point that Toppo has God Ki in the manga. Unless they wish to get around to doing a Dragon Ball Xenoverse arc(s), then I'm gonna assume God Ki will remain a wasted concept. Now I haven't played the Xenoverse games, but I've heard from a good friend of mine who has that God Ki has a few other functions like immunity to telepathy and mind control. If they ever do introduce Xenoverse into Super, that might be fun for them to go more into depth about the differences between regular Ki and God Ki. If not, then I assume God Ki will remain a wasted concept and will be followed shortly by God forms and maybe even by Ultra Instinct if they create something that surpasses even Ultra Instinct. As for surpassing Ultra Instinct, I hope they don't do it so quickly. I'd love for them to explain that Ultra Instinct is the glass ceiling so to speak and have Goku thinking that thru Uub that he could find a way to destroy that glass ceiling and go even further beyond Ultra Instinct. Though I hope they establish Ultra Instinct officially as a technique and not a transformation so that they could pair if with the God forms to prevent them from becoming the next new wasted concept. Yeah we don't really know if there are any differences between regular and God ki aside from God ki being undetectable by mortals. I think what they were going for in BoG was that the Saiyans were basically near their limit in terms of regular ki and God ki was necessary to reach the next level of power. Toriyama mentioned in interviews during BoG about the cast being near their max strength at the time. That could mean a number of things but I interpreted that as the Saiyans weren't going to get much stronger without this new form. I think the idea of Ultra Instinct is that it's supposed to be the pinnacle of God ki control for a mortal. I honestly don't know if there's anywhere to go from here. If Goku has surpassed the Gods of Destruction, they either have to introduce mortals stronger than them like who don't care about taking that position or have Goku try and surpass the Angels. That would raise the question of where these mortals were during the Tournament of Power unless they inhabit one of the four excluded universes. Even then they would have to explain what caused these +God of Destruction tier mortals to became a threat. Jiren is a hero in his universe and the only reason he's an antagonist is because the highest ranking God is pitting these universes against each other. Under normal circumstances, he would probably only have a friendly spar with Goku if he ever ran into him. The only other option I could think of is having one of the Angels rebel but Grand Priest would likely deal with them unless they go the Zamasu saga route and have a bunch of Gods getting killed off without him noticing.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 2, 2017 1:37:19 GMT
It's got a lot of potential. The main problem is that god ki was presented as merely another power boost instead of exploring a lot of its other possibilities. Kind of like how, regardless of whatever cool abilities characters might have, what ultimately determines someone's relevance is their strength.
Personally, I would write god ki so that it doesn't actually make you any stronger; however, if you have god ki, you can only be hurt by god ki. This would change BoG drastically; Goku actually is strong enough to give Beerus a fight (though not beat him), but he can't do any damage until he gets god ki. I would also make it so that unless you are naturally divine, you can only have god ki temporarily; SSG is not a permanent form. Things that are limited seem more important.
I don't know if any of you have read Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, but in those books, gods have power based on how many people believe in them; gods with millions of followers have lots of power, while gods with few followers can't do anything. Before RoF came out I assumed Frieza gained enough power to fight SSB Goku because the entire WTO had faith in him as a deity, giving him god ki. Jiren could be so darn strong because he has an entire universe believing in him or something. I don't know. It might be better than "they trained really hard."
~Other Ideas~ I've thought a lot about how to rewrite Dragon Ball, and the Buu saga in particular. One idea I have is to introduce god ki in the Buu saga. The Kaioshin may not be as strong as Super Saiyans, but their god ki makes them impervious to "mortal" attacks; it would also explain why nobody would notice Supreme Kai at the World Tournament despite him being strong enough to crush Frieza. I'd rewrite Buu so that he radiates an aura that disables god ki, making the Kaioshin vulnerable and allowing him to kill them. (His anti-god energy would also explain why his insides deactivated the godly Potara magic.) Most importantly, this quality would explain why the Kaioshins didn't just get Beerus to take out Buu: Buu could regenerate from basically any attack while nullifying Beerus' god ki. You could even say Buu actively weakens divine beings. Saiyans are strong enough to kill Buu without god ki and can't get weakened by him, so they're the ideal people to kill him.
It'd be like rock/paper/scissors: Buu can beat Beerus because he's an anti-god weapon; Beerus beats Saiyans, Saiyans beat Buu because they're not divine. Goku can train and surpass Beerus in strength but Beerus is still a force to be reckoned with because you only permanently get god ki if you accept the God of Destruction position.
Basically, Goku would use god ki to even things up against Beerus. However, since the ritual is so limited and he doesn't need god ki to take on later non-god threats, SSG would be a tactic held in reserve, like fusion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 1:46:39 GMT
It's got a lot of potential. The main problem is that god ki was presented as merely another power boost instead of exploring a lot of its other possibilities. Kind of like how, regardless of whatever cool abilities characters might have, what ultimately determines someone's relevance is their strength.
Personally, I would write god ki so that it doesn't actually make you any stronger; however, if you have god ki, you can only be hurt by god ki. This would change BoG drastically; Goku actually is strong enough to give Beerus a fight (though not beat him), but he can't do any damage until he gets god ki. I would also make it so that unless you are naturally divine, you can only have god ki temporarily; SSG is not a permanent form. Things that are limited seem more important.
I don't know if any of you have read Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, but in those books, gods have power based on how many people believe in them; gods with millions of followers have lots of power, while gods with few followers can't do anything. Before RoF came out I assume Frieza gained enough power to fight SSB Goku because the entire WTO had faith in him as a deity, giving him god ki. Jiren could be so darn strong because he has an entire universe believing in him or something. I don't know. It might be better than "they trained really hard."
~Other Ideas~ I've thought a lot about how to rewrite Dragon Ball, and the Buu saga in particular. One idea I have is to introduce god ki in the Buu saga. The Kaioshin may not be as strong as Super Saiyans, but their god ki makes them impervious to "mortal" attacks; it would also explain why nobody would notice Supreme Kai at the World Tournament despite him being strong enough to crush Frieza. I'd rewrite Buu so that he radiates an aura that disables god ki, making the Kaioshin vulnerable and allowing him to kill them. (His anti-god energy would also explain why his insides deactivated the godly Potara magic.) Most importantly, this quality would explain why the Kaioshins didn't just get Beerus to take out Buu: Buu could regenerate from basically any attack while nullifying Beerus' god ki. You could even say Buu actively weakens divine beings. Saiyans are strong enough to kill Buu without god ki and can't get weakened by him, so they're the ideal people to kill him.
It'd be like rock/paper/scissors: Buu can beat Beerus because he's an anti-god weapon; Beerus beats Saiyans, Saiyans beat Buu because they're not divine. Goku can train and surpass Beerus in strength but Beerus is still a force to be reckoned with because you only permanently get god ki if you accept the God of Destruction position.
Basically, Goku would use god ki to even things up against Beerus. However, since the ritual is so limited and he doesn't need god ki to take on later non-god threats, SSG would be a tactic held in reserve, like fusion. Also, make up ya mind, are you admin or not? Your name was changing colours while I was liking your post and since I had a mad bout of dyslexia this morning I wasn't sure if it was my brain trippin out again or not...
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Post by Axalon on Nov 2, 2017 2:14:13 GMT
It's got a lot of potential. The main problem is that god ki was presented as merely another power boost instead of exploring a lot of its other possibilities. Kind of like how, regardless of whatever cool abilities characters might have, what ultimately determines someone's relevance is their strength. The problem with DB in a nutshell. It's why the message going into the ToP about how strength alone was meaningless is failing so hard right now (as ultimately I think we all knew it would).
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 2, 2017 3:42:42 GMT
It's got a lot of potential. The main problem is that god ki was presented as merely another power boost instead of exploring a lot of its other possibilities. Kind of like how, regardless of whatever cool abilities characters might have, what ultimately determines someone's relevance is their strength. The problem with DB in a nutshell. It's why the message going into the ToP about how strength alone was meaningless is failing so hard right now (as ultimately I think we all knew it would). That's true. Toriyama may just be out of his depth. He made a lot of the tropes fighting Shonen series use, but like everything it evolved when he hung up his pen in that genre and now they are trying to bring it back. Zamasu was clearly his attempt to make a more gray villain, but he fell into what he knows. Adding more to the ki system while a good idea for him to have the characters get stronger he just can't really think of how to develop godly ki more. Despite the whole ki being composed of courage, life, and mind it is doubtful that he ever really thought on how those concepts all go together and how to use them to extend his ki system.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 2, 2017 4:30:23 GMT
The problem with DB in a nutshell. It's why the message going into the ToP about how strength alone was meaningless is failing so hard right now (as ultimately I think we all knew it would). That's true. Toriyama may just be out of his depth. He made a lot of the tropes fighting Shonen series use, but like everything it evolved when he hung up his pen in that genre and now they are trying to bring it back. Zamasu was clearly his attempt to make a more gray villain, but he fell into what he knows. Adding more to the ki system while a good idea for him to have the characters get stronger he just can't really think of how to develop godly ki more. Despite the whole ki being composed of courage, life, and mind it is doubtful that he ever really thought on how those concepts all go together and how to use them to extend his ki system. I don't know about him not having ideas to extend the God Ki thing, because from what I know about the Xenoverse games (haven't actually played them, but have been told about them by people who have in great detail), he actually did a pretty good job with adding at least a little bit more to God Ki. What I'm talking about is how he made it to where God Ki makes one immune to telepathy, mind control, and magic. This was shown when it was revealed that Beerus only pretended to be under the control of Demigra's Mind Control Magic for what I can only assume were plot armor reasons. This apparently allows anyone that can use God Ki to be immune to Demigra's Mind Control, so simply by turning SSJG/SSJB, you can fight Demigra without having him try to mind control you. Seeing as how Toriyama is involved quite a bit with stuff like Xenoverse, Dragon Ball Heroes, and previously Dragon Ball Online, I'd imagine that he came up with that idea or at least approved of the idea that the game makers came up with. Honestly from what I've heard about Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes, I really do wish that Toriyama decides to eventually bring characters and elements from those games into Super and maybe he already has plans to do so, but is waiting for just the right time to introduce some of those games characters and plot elements. I know it'd sure make things entertaining if he did that and introduced them in just the right way to where it worked and also wasn't super duper confusing at the same time. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind watching a spin-off anime based around the Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes games.
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Post by supergojita3 on Dec 3, 2017 2:55:01 GMT
I think god ki was a wasted concept, and I think buu should have been released in the goku black arc.
Have goku channel his ssj3 ki into buus egg, and trunks be nervous and sad about it as thats why kaioshin died, to prevent that, and goku be like lol buus a bad mofo, but has a heart of gold. They bribe him with candy and tell them that zamasu and black stole it all, and buu has to get them dead before he can have any. Buu happily agrees. Future buu sneaks aboard with future zeno.
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Post by Axalon on Dec 3, 2017 3:02:21 GMT
I think god ki was a wasted concept, and I think buu should have been released in the goku black arc. Have goku channel his ssj3 ki into buus egg, and trunks be nervous and sad about it as thats why kaioshin died, to prevent that, and goku be like lol buus a bad mofo, but has a heart of gold. They bribe him with candy and tell them that zamasu and black stole it all, and buu has to get them dead before he can have any. Buu happily agrees. Future buu sneaks aboard with future zeno. You know, I never really considered waking up Buu in the future timeline as an alternative. But...yeah. Buu's ball is totally there. Would've been a great way to dispose of the immortal Zamasu by just having Buu eat/absorb him.
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Post by supergojita3 on Dec 3, 2017 3:06:59 GMT
And did we really need to kill zamasu? Some form of a reformed zamasu in the present who learned right from wrong, or at least sees his future self with the whole 2 face thing would be like "Welp, thats hideous. Guess I should at least try not to be some horrible murdering monstrosity."
And we could have been introduced to zamasu earlier, like at the u6 tournament. Gowasu was invited and is all like "see? not all mortals are ass holes. This namekain for example turned from bad to good with some time."
Not every villain needs to be killed, erased or whatever.
Shit. I need to make a thread about how I'd change dbs into something better plot wise.
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Post by Axalon on Dec 3, 2017 3:20:24 GMT
And did we really need to kill zamasu? Some form of a reformed zamasu in the present who learned right from wrong, or at least sees his future self with the whole 2 face thing would be like "Welp, thats hideous. Guess I should at least try not to be some horrible murdering monstrosity." Yes. Killing Zamasu was to show that Zen-Oh wasn't all talk and actually was a Destroyer of Universes. Zamasu himself was already too far gone since he was advocating genocide on an entire species just because two neanderthal dinosaurs were fighting over food. A future version of himself time traveling back and telling him that the time has come to make Zero Mortals happen was like Christmas come early for him.
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Post by Jason9000 on Dec 3, 2017 3:26:35 GMT
And did we really need to kill zamasu? Some form of a reformed zamasu in the present who learned right from wrong, or at least sees his future self with the whole 2 face thing would be like "Welp, thats hideous. Guess I should at least try not to be some horrible murdering monstrosity." Yes. Killing Zamasu was to show that Zen-Oh wasn't all talk and actually was a Destroyer of Universes. Zamasu himself was already too far gone since he was advocating genocide on an entire species just because two neanderthal dinosaurs were fighting over food. A future version of himself time traveling back and telling him that the time has come to make Zero Mortals happen was like Christmas come early for him. What’s funny was when Future Zamasu camel down from the heavens in that bright light and talking about ending it. I honestly thought he was talking about ending Black and that he had been tracking him down to finish him off.........then five seconds later he’s side by side with Black staring menacingly at the heroes. God they could have made Future Zamasu the good one that never went evil and he was the last Supreme Kai in Future Trunks Timeline.
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