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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 5, 2017 17:40:08 GMT
One thing I don't like about this ToP is how they've consistently failed to show the Chaos of a battle royale. Which is odd since it was depicted pretty well at the very beginning: people intercepting each other all over, punching and blasts all over the place, etc...
Now, no matter how much they're saying it's gone more intense, it has only been the opposite. It seems everyone is sleeping while Goku fights the thots. And when small screenshots of other things happen, instead of helping alleviate this problem, only makes it worse.
Specially Vegeta and Toppo. WTF, two SSJBLUE dudes are kicking the shit out of each other but Jiren flinches when the Broly-thot powers up, despite she's barely able to keep up with Red Goku whom Jiren blocked with one hand? God damnit.
Also, since I mentioned what happened earlier in the tournament (while it looked better at the beggining, it didn't amount to anything)... what happens to all those sidetracked fights? Are people just throwing a few punches and leaving? What happened to that Sumo Nappapa fighting Toppo? Wouldn't it have been more proper to have Toppo knock him out (as far as I can remember, he hasn't done anything like that?)? So, they just took a few punches and goodbye? Eh...
All the things I was afraid the ToP would turn into... have happened... yet I'm still watching it. Meh.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 5, 2017 20:48:11 GMT
Kirasha I'd have to disagree that it's his Kamehameha. Instead he's showing off a technique similar to Frieza's Homing Large Pepperoni Pizzas attack. We've already seen Goku use telepathy at least twice in the DB series' (once in Saiyan Arc & once in Namek Arc) and now we've got official confirmation that he can use Telekinesis too just like Frieza was shown doing twice in Namek Arc and Perfect Cell did twice during the Androids/Cell Arc.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 5, 2017 23:34:39 GMT
... what happens to all those sidetracked fights? Are people just throwing a few punches and leaving? What happened to that Sumo Nappapa fighting Toppo? Wouldn't it have been more proper to have Toppo knock him out (as far as I can remember, he hasn't done anything like that?)? So, they just took a few punches and goodbye? Eh... All the things I was afraid the ToP would turn into... have happened... yet I'm still watching it. Meh. Basically yes. Napapa first almost gets ringed out by Basil. Basil then ignores him and he and Napapa split up and go fight other people. Next we see of Napapa he's been defeated by a bored Frieza. He was so bored by him he didn't even bother knocking him out of the ring, or something. He recovers from Frieza Torture and bugs Kale for a little bit. Then he fights Caulifla. Then Caulifla out-sumos the Multiverse's Ultimate Sumo Guy who pushed her to the edge of the ring and rings him out with a sumo technique while he praises her technique even as he gets ringed out. Rinse and repeat for various characters. It's like they're half-trying to show "LOOK! ALL THESE DIFFERENT CHARACTERS ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER...BUT MOSTLY THEY AREN'T DOING ANYTHING!" This is why I've complained that it's mostly been U6 and U7 doing the majority of the ring-outs. You'd think that just by the law of averages OTHER people would've lost to OTHER fighters, y'know, from OTHER universes. Based off of this two-week old graphic: ...the scale is just laughable. U7 has a massive lead with 39 knockouts (though the numbers also count dual knockouts by multiple people, so the actual number is less than this. Still though). Not a single U7 fighter has failed to defeat at least one opponent. MVP is Vegeta so far with 9. Goku in second with 6. Frieza/Roshi tied with 5. U6, the second most developed universe, is in second place with 17 knockouts. MVP is Kale with 6, Caulifla right behind with 5. Poor Hit only has 2. All the other universes combined? 6. SIX KNOCKOUTS FROM 6 UNIVERSES COMBINED. This is including the one with freaking Jiren in it. Based on their incredibly lackluster performance I almost don't blame Zen-Oh and the GP for wanting to just erase the useless fodder. #ZamasuWasRight On an unrelated note, we're about 26 minutes into the ToP. Meanwhile in our world 5 hours and 10 minutes has passed. Frieza's Time Slowing Sorcery is still just as good as ever.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 6, 2017 1:08:46 GMT
Axalon Exactly. This was my biggest fear. That it would just be U6 vs. U7 vs. U11 but you know what? It's not even that. With all the original U6 Rooster gone just after half the tournament, it can hardly be called that. It's more like U7 + 2 Saiyan thots vs. everyone else and that's it. Even Jiren the bad-ass has only knocked out 2 persons, the same as Hit. Toppo which was greatly hyped before? Nada. Dyspo dude who mysteriously looked like a younger Beerus? Did not live up the hype and the Aragney battle served him right. That stupid mouse-rabbit-cat hybrid should have been knocked out by Hit. Given that he's afraid of not-even-Golden Freeza, it's doubtful he'd be able to do something against the rest of remaining fighters. I hope Ribrianne knocks him out to serve him right. As for the remaining tournament teams? U9 deserved to be alive than most of them. U4? Unable to knock anyone out, pretty shitty fighters eliminated by Krillin, etc... U3? Not even gonna start with these ones. To think U2 has had more eliminations than them is shameful. Basil knocking out some U10 fodder made me have hopes at the beggining, that some of the lesser universes would put up a fight. But nope, none of that.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 6, 2017 1:16:26 GMT
They probably should have taken a page out of YYH and done a team tournament like the Dark Tournament. That way it is easier to flesh out these characters, allows for breaks to slow things down, enough time to build up hype for other characters, and it gives people one on one fights, so no one is just standing still for most of a match.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 6, 2017 1:54:07 GMT
They probably should have taken a page out of YYH and done a team tournament like the Dark Tournament. That way it is easier to flesh out these characters, allows for breaks to slow things down, enough time to build up hype for other characters, and it gives people one on one fights, so no one is just standing still for most of a match. Dark Tournament (and even the incomplete offscreen Demon Tournament in the last ark) characters were a lot more memorable. Even the complete fodder. For example, I clearly remember many of the losers, notably the yo-yo dude (Rinkou) and the Australian drunk dude who killed the rest of his team mates for being cowards. The Spirit-world Shinobi were pretty unremarkable beyond the Irish Imp. However the dudes who were possessed were all remarkable, as the team of the clown dude. I particularly remember one blond dude who got entirely obliterated by Hiei who inhaled some smoke and then created a "beast armor". Then we finally get to Toguro's team. No need to even mention this one.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 6, 2017 3:51:34 GMT
They probably should have taken a page out of YYH and done a team tournament like the Dark Tournament. That way it is easier to flesh out these characters, allows for breaks to slow things down, enough time to build up hype for other characters, and it gives people one on one fights, so no one is just standing still for most of a match. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. YYH's Dark Tournament IMO is the best example of taking a Tournament Arc and making it work. It had its own flaws, yes, but damn it was just done so much better than the Tournament of Power. Just like Conqueror Geng said I even remember several of the losers despite them never appearing again after that arc, years after I've even seen it. Thanks to things like actual breaks between matches and rounds for Yusuke's team it allowed moments for training, reflection, story moments, character development, etc. The Tournament of Power on the other hand is, well, basically the exact opposite of this. Story exposition usually is rushed by Whis or someone saying something from the sidelines or even worse just random stuff happening in the ring while the cheerleading cast speculate from the sidelines on what even is happening at the moment. Because EIGHT teams are all happening at once the story just can't focus on it all at once. Naturally it focuses on U7, because it's their story, but this comes to the detriment of literally anything else. Worse still is that since it's Goku's show, it's going to focus on him. Meaning not only are any potential good stories from these other universes we've never seen before getting shoved aside, his fellow U7 members are being shoved aside as well. We have this potentially fantastic battle happening with Vegeta fighting Toppo, or Frieza being positively evil, or Piccolo fighting against other Namekians with Gohan and it's all just been shoved to the side because to do otherwise would mean shoving Goku's recovery and re-acquisition of Ultra Instinct to the side. They literally have Jiren sitting around doing nothing because if he were active right now he'd break the entire tournament. I really want to see how the manga does Jiren, because if it also has him sitting around meditating and Jiren doesn't have some secret flaw like needing to meditate to recharge his immense power or something then I'll be thoroughly disappointed with this arc as a whole for both the anime and the manga. Which in retrospect is kind of how I view the Zamasu arc in both formats. But anyway, this wouldn't be as much of a problem in Dark Tournament format since he'd be the team's anchor and so would only step in after everyone else had fallen per the rules. Goku and the others would also have the opportunity to study the opposing teams and formulate potential strategies while also trying to keep as many aces as possible hidden up their sleeves in return. So you could actually have Goku messing around in base form and wait for it-- maybe even losing a match because of it--but in the end it wouldn't matter as long as the rest of the team can carry him to victory to the next round where he'd be able to go again, which would ALSO give us more controlled opportunities to showcase people like #17, Krillin or Tien. But alas, instead we just have this confused jumble of a mess.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 6, 2017 4:03:34 GMT
Dark Tournament (and even the incomplete offscreen Demon Tournament in the last ark) characters were a lot more memorable. Even the complete fodder. For example, I clearly remember many of the losers, notably the yo-yo dude (Rinkou) and the Australian drunk dude who killed the rest of his team mates for being cowards. The Spirit-world Shinobi were pretty unremarkable beyond the Irish Imp. However the dudes who were possessed were all remarkable, as the team of the clown dude. I particularly remember one blond dude who got entirely obliterated by Hiei who inhaled some smoke and then created a "beast armor". Then we finally get to Toguro's team. No need to even mention this one. That is true, but I think the reason a lot of the characters in Tournament of Power are so forgettable is because the way they structured the tournament was a big giant battle. There are 8 teams of ten man teams right? Not counting U7 and the five U6 members we saw before that meant they had to come up with 65 new characters right away and didn't have a lot of time to flesh them out or really come up with memorable personalities since they had to hurry along in giant battle royale style tournament. This style would be fine if this was qualifier or elimination round of the old Martial Arts Tournaments in old DB where we are supposed to get a bunch of fodder before the main tournament which usually had 8 finalists competing in a four round tournament. That is way easier to make more developed characters and give them more abilities. It even makes it easier to create subplots or character arcs this way. When you come up with 65 named characters, give them all abilities, and motivations in a tournament meant to save their respective universes right off the bat it is hard to come up with all these things right off the bat. Had they gone with a more traditional tournament where 8 teams were pit against each other in a four round tournament it would slow things down, giving the writers more time to develop and flesh the characters out to be more memorable. It allows the tournament to span a few days, which gives the characters down time to discuss and contemplate the gravity of the tournament and why Zeno could destroy all these universes on a whim. Characters like Gohan and Vegeta who have new born daughters could especially get focus, considering how their motivations are to protect their families. It also builds up the opposing team. The Pride Troopers for example could have benefited from this style since it would allow them to be built up as major rivals the way Jackie Chun/Roshi, Tien, and Piccolo Jr. were in the old tournaments. The are more benefits to have gone with the same old traditional route for the Tournament of Power than to try to be different in a Battle Royale. The BR is different for DB and potentially the wild card nature could make it very interesting with team ups and sneak plays, but it is harder to come up with all these new characters off the bat and doesn't give them a lot of time to figure characters out.
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Post by Namikaze on Nov 6, 2017 4:34:00 GMT
All the flaws aside of the episode and arc itself at large, this is by far one of my favorite moments of the ToP thus far.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 6, 2017 4:35:15 GMT
All the flaws aside of the episode and arc itself at large, this is by far one of my favorite moments of the ToP thus far. You know, if it wasn't for the subtitles and if the frames started from Goku's backhand motion to the end of the gif, it'd be a nice "God's telling you to shoo" gif or something.
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Post by Namikaze on Nov 6, 2017 5:00:09 GMT
All the flaws aside of the episode and arc itself at large, this is by far one of my favorite moments of the ToP thus far. You know, if it wasn't for the subtitles and if the frames started from Goku's backhand motion to the end of the gif, it'd be a nice "God's telling you to shoo" gif or something.
Ask and you shall receive?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 6, 2017 5:12:58 GMT
You know, if it wasn't for the subtitles and if the frames started from Goku's backhand motion to the end of the gif, it'd be a nice "God's telling you to shoo" gif or something.
Ask and you shall receive? Man, am I gonna have a lot of fun using this gif! Thanks Brohan! Pretty much my reaction right now for laughs
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Post by Overridden With Joy Yuya on Nov 6, 2017 16:55:49 GMT
They probably should have taken a page out of YYH and done a team tournament like the Dark Tournament. That way it is easier to flesh out these characters, allows for breaks to slow things down, enough time to build up hype for other characters, and it gives people one on one fights, so no one is just standing still for most of a match. Wouldn't that cause a lot of fan backlash? When the tournament was announced there were already people dissapointed that it was yet another tournament arc,and that's why the battle royale idea was good,because it flipped the table on us and our assumisions about the arc's title,and it was a great chance to try a battlefield idea in DB without a need for a war or some greater conflict. Besides,if toryama would take a page from another shounen,it would most likely be Boku No Hero Academia,since we know toryama has been reading it.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 6, 2017 17:39:34 GMT
They probably should have taken a page out of YYH and done a team tournament like the Dark Tournament. That way it is easier to flesh out these characters, allows for breaks to slow things down, enough time to build up hype for other characters, and it gives people one on one fights, so no one is just standing still for most of a match. Wouldn't that cause a lot of fan backlash? When the tournament was announced there were already people dissapointed that it was yet another tournament arc, and that's why the battle royale idea was good,because it flipped the table on us and our assumisions about the arc's title,and it was a great chance to try a battlefield idea in DB without a need for a war or some greater conflict. Besides,if toryama would take a page from another shounen,it would most likely be Boku No Hero Academia,since we know toryama has been reading it. To be honest it flipped nothing. As I mentioned before in other posts, it disappointed in exactly all the ways I expected, some worse (such as U6). Namely: -It being U6 vs. U11 vs. U7. It's mostly just parts of U7 + two new Saiyan thots vs. kicking everyone else who are mostly camping -Introducing a shitload of forgettable, fodder charactersa (this includes most GoDs, Angels and Kais as well, some of which have had nearly 0 lines and look mostly like generic fanfic characters) -Bad depiction of the chaos of the battle royale (It was fine at the beggining but as said, it did not amount to anything). -Too many off-screen battles (which ultimately do not matter) -Characters from important universes being totally sidetracked (Hit hasn't gotten a single line since being eliminated, eliminated Pride Troopers haven't said anything or even shown at all too much, not even during Jiren's fight with Goku) The idea of a battle royale sounded fresh initially, on paper, but we all had worries it would turn to shit and boy, it totally did. They just were not able to keep up with it. Mind you, a "Dark Tournament" isn't the typical DB tournament in format either. I guess it was kinda similar to U6's tournament though.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 6, 2017 20:34:12 GMT
Wouldn't that cause a lot of fan backlash? When the tournament was announced there were already people dissapointed that it was yet another tournament arc, and that's why the battle royale idea was good,because it flipped the table on us and our assumisions about the arc's title,and it was a great chance to try a battlefield idea in DB without a need for a war or some greater conflict. Besides,if toryama would take a page from another shounen,it would most likely be Boku No Hero Academia,since we know toryama has been reading it. To be honest it flipped nothing. As I mentioned before in other posts, it disappointed in exactly all the ways I expected, some worse (such as U6). Namely: -It being U6 vs. U11 vs. U7. It's mostly just parts of U7 + two new Saiyan thots vs. kicking everyone else who are mostly camping -Introducing a shitload of forgettable, fodder charactersa (this includes most GoDs, Angels and Kais as well, some of which have had nearly 0 lines and look mostly like generic fanfic characters) -Bad depiction of the chaos of the battle royale (It was fine at the beggining but as said, it did not amount to anything). -Too many off-screen battles (which ultimately do not matter) -Characters from important universes being totally sidetracked (Hit hasn't gotten a single line since being eliminated, eliminated Pride Troopers haven't said anything or even shown at all too much, not even during Jiren's fight with Goku) The idea of a battle royale sounded fresh initially, on paper, but we all had worries it would turn to shit and boy, it totally did. They just were not able to keep up with it. Mind you, a "Dark Tournament" isn't the typical DB tournament in format either. I guess it was kinda similar to U6's tournament though.This just gave me the horrifying thought that the U6 Tournament and the Tournament of Power actually are DBS's takes on the Dark Tournament format. Traditional DB Budokai: - Series of 1v1 matches with a grand finale - Killing disallowed - Grand prize is money U6 Tournament: - Low-stakes fighting tournament. - Killing disallowed. - 1v1 fights where the winner gets to stay in the ring and fight additional fighters until they lose or forfeit with no real rest in between. - Rules changing based on the whims of the GoDs - Winner gets their wish granted by magical super dragon ToP: - High-stakes fighting tournament. - Killing disallowed. - Mass free-for-all under threat of death if you don't attend. Losers die anyway. - Rules changing based on the whims of Zen-Oh if he thinks it's cool - Winner gets their wish granted by magical super dragon Dark Tournament: - High-stakes fighting tournament. - Invited to join under penalty of death if you refuse. - Killing allowed. - Rules change depending on how the Committee feels it wants to try and screw you that particular day. - Or if the teams agree to some wacky condition. Or both. - Winners get their wish granted by evil Committee ...I certainly hope this isn't the case. DBS would have to take itself a bit more seriously if it genuinely wants to pull off a Dark Tournament.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 22:40:03 GMT
I read YYH quite a while back and vaguely recall it peaking with the Dark tournament and fizzling out from there, but I don't recall the DT being as amazing as everyone here is putting it. Granted I binged the hell out of YYH so there is a chance I was unable to fully appreciate it, but I am wondering if reading it is inferior to watching it.
I watched MHA tournament arc and found it absolutely riveting from start to finish yet that came with no stakes at all so basically, should I just watch the DT to see wtf you are all fangirling about?
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 6, 2017 23:29:38 GMT
I recommend watching anime of Togashi’s work over his manga. His artwork varies in my experience and sometimes it is just plain not good. Animation for YYH and HxH is usually cleaned up and refined to look better IMO. As for the Dark Tournament itself if you didn’t think it was so great that is fine. I only brought up because people weren’t feeling the battle royale format of ToP so I thought of how YYH did five man team tournament bracket system. It is nothing amazingly different and I more compared how it was more in common with DB usual three round tournament system that while more of the same old same old as proven pretty effective for DB franchise.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 6, 2017 23:50:18 GMT
I read YYH quite a while back and vaguely recall it peaking with the Dark tournament and fizzling out from there, but I don't recall the DT being as amazing as everyone here is putting it. Granted I binged the hell out of YYH so there is a chance I was unable to fully appreciate it, but I am wondering if reading it is inferior to watching it. I watched MHA tournament arc and found it absolutely riveting from start to finish yet that came with no stakes at all so basically, should I just watch the DT to see wtf you are all fangirling about? I wouldn't say it's an absolute perfect peak in regards to writing but honestly this is DBSuper whom you're comparing it too. Dbsuper is shit. Anything that is compared to it will inevitably sound like fangirling because DBsuper is this shitty, and everything else is just so awesome in comparison. I honestly always preferred the Black Tape saga over Dark Tournament and Shinobu Sensui over Toguro. But that's just me, this isn't even a popular opinion that any YYH fan would say.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 1:37:56 GMT
I recommend watching anime of Togashi’s work over his manga. His artwork varies in my experience and sometimes it is just plain not good. Animation for YYH and HxH is usually cleaned up and refined to look better IMO. As for the Dark Tournament itself if you didn’t think it was so great that is fine. I only brought up because people weren’t feeling the battle royale format of ToP so I thought of how YYH did five man team tournament bracket system. It is nothing amazingly different and I more compared how it was more in common with DB usual three round tournament system that while more of the same old same old as proven pretty effective for DB franchise. It's not that I didn't enjoy it, I just don't recall it being as amazing as what people have been sayin in this thread is all. So watch it ya reckon, noted. Cheers. I read YYH quite a while back and vaguely recall it peaking with the Dark tournament and fizzling out from there, but I don't recall the DT being as amazing as everyone here is putting it. Granted I binged the hell out of YYH so there is a chance I was unable to fully appreciate it, but I am wondering if reading it is inferior to watching it. I watched MHA tournament arc and found it absolutely riveting from start to finish yet that came with no stakes at all so basically, should I just watch the DT to see wtf you are all fangirling about? I wouldn't say it's an absolute perfect peak in regards to writing but honestly this is DBSuper whom you're comparing it too. Dbsuper is shit. Anything that is compared to it will inevitably sound like fangirling because DBsuper is this shitty, and everything else is just so awesome in comparison. I honestly always preferred the Black Tape saga over Dark Tournament and Shinobu Sensui over Toguro. But that's just me, this isn't even a popular opinion that any YYH fan would say. Perfect writing in a shonen? LOL k. From the depths of my shitty memory HxH and MHA are lightyears ahead of both DB and YYH and even they come with plenty of faults so... I'll take Son Pan's advice then and watch the DT, eventually.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 7, 2017 1:45:32 GMT
What's MHA? I am going to start binge-watching HxHunter soon (next week likely) though. I've only heard awesome reviews of it. It appears to be a lot darker thematically than Yu Yu Hakusho.
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