The Retro Kakarotto The flaws I see in Z?
All that is the "bad part of Z",and it's all in DBS,some parts are even worst.
(The good part of Z is in the end of the post.)
On a more focused way:
And that's it. That's all I don't like about Z.
Of course,there is also the "good part of Z",and that's what makes it cut ahead of DBS as a whole.The good part of Z is at the end of the post.
I always thought about Z as a classic with it's flaws,but after reading people complains and watching DBS, I can separate the things that ,IMO, are flaws from the good parts much more clearly in my mind,but turning that into text has given me some trouble.
Oh, that's the quote,I might just be remembering wrong,
On about Goku leaving Freeza,that scene can be interpreted in lots of ways, which just generally comes down to how you view goku's character,and since I think that we both see the character in a different way,we probably will not come to a satisfactory conclusion,so agree to disagree for now.
Well I will give that a read.
My biggest problem with that intro is that it was a clear attempt to one-up the DBZ readership,and that's were worst of it.
Yes,but I it's not very common to people realize that he is
THE naturally Strong being in the universe.
Since buu ha been rectoned in to being the creation of a mad scientist.
P.Cell was just freeza in a sayian suit.
Semi perfect Cell is just a crybaby.
Put that's not the important part,the important part is that they dropped the element that made him his most unique,at least in the way I see him, that was the thriller element.
Like a snake that you know is in the grass,but can't see it,you can hear it coming closer but don't know how to stop up from biting you. That's the best part of Cell to me.
Android 19 and 20 are barely even characters.
16,17,18 are fine,for the most part.
I can try.
But first,"kill DBZ's narrative" was not what I should have said,since far less anger inducing if you look at it at face value, what I should have said was:
"Misses good opportunities for nuance that would have made the buu saga muh better than it was."
If Goku,even for one little scene,had doubt,or thought about the fact that most treats to earth come from him, directly or indirectly,that would make him have much more nuance and setup an interesting dilemma.
If Goku saves the Earth from buu,then the population congratulated him,but wanted him to live on other planet due to the sheer amount of trouble he causes,we would have a much better buu saga,at least to me.
The very existence of reset button cheapens the dead,making it less impactful.
Majin Vegeta's death was the best one in my eyes,because when he comes back, it's has the synbolism of he being birth a new man to go along with his Character Development, whether intencional or not.
People seem to like when Goku die to stop cell, putting aside the questions about IT it raises,it shouldn't be that dramatic,and I think the only ones that acted in character were Goku and Gohan.
Goku for being willing to die.
And Gohan for realizing how hard he had to fuck up to make it necessary for Goku to die.
The rest of the cast,and that includes the way it was framed,was just a massive overreaction.
Since those are the most relevant death scene of Z, so I addressed those.
You know,the best arc ideas for a DB sequel that don't include multiple dimensions or time travel,were the ones that took the focus away from from Goku and the tipical heroes,and put the focus on the weaker,but more interesting characters.
Or even the ones that try to save the Goten and kid trunks from their non-caracther status.
Or a multiple arc story that builds into each other.
And That much more difficult to justify with the reset button right there,at the end of every saga.
That's why I don't like the DB's.
Yes, I agree,and that's actually sad,because the writer's think that the only way to give Vegeta a reason to stay relevant power wise is to regress his character.
Even tho the much better fix would be "I need to protect my family,and I gonna use Goku as a guide to where to improve next".
It would have changed nothing,and would show another layer of development for Vegeta.
DBS is full of little details like this,that just make the series worst for no reason,other than no one cared enough to keep the development of Z pre time-skip,and the fact that most still say that DBS Vegeta is the most develop Vegeta ever was really shows how much the fandom also doesn't care either.
Which is part of my point about how DBS is DBZ striped of it's good parts.
My objective is to be around in these super treads to keep the discussion going by bringing more variety into the opinion pool.
The objective I have in this conversation is to convince you Z and Super have the same structure,but are just executed differently.
I never said super is better than Z,but I did said that I hold them in the same tier of writing, I'm pretty sure I did say that Z is better than super,just that the gap between them is smaller than most believe.
Due to the fact they are written with the same mentality.
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
Ressurection F need so little to be tolerabe.
The frezza 4 months should have been four years.
The z-warrios needed to find freeza,not the other way around.
Goku(or Vegeta) should find them by felling Freeza's power building.
And we should have got some explanation about the new aliens power,Genetic engeniring along with them being infused with the powered up frezza DNA would be allright,with the higher ranks having more DNA,ect.
Since it would be out of the Earth,no Beerus and Whis to ruin the tension.
This would mean ressurection F would happen after EoZ,but that's just a general Super problem.
I like Gohan losing his ultimate form.
Gohan should be FFSS level,no more,no less.
Him jobbing to freeza I like.
The battle between the z-warriors and the freeza forces I like.
Since it's out of Earth,and would be an emergency,no buu as well.
That about everything I have to say about ressurection F.
I should rename the list to "Worst exectuded power ups in DB.".
Gohan having the biggest potential is not BS.
The characters trying to capitalize on that fact is not BS.
The power up itself was not BS.
The situation around it made unearned.
And the fact it was wasted just adds insult to injury.
SS2 Gohan.
Not the narrative of him coming to his own as a fighter,that was great.
Not the power of the form itself.
But the situation surrounding the transformation that was bad.
The worst offenders being cell jrs and 16 triggering the transformation.
They didn't even need to make Gohan that weak either.
Just make freeza go to his final form and the result would be the same,I agree that the power drain was too much,but I still think he should be like he was at the begging of the buu arc in terms of power.
His ultimate,as I see it,I he tapping into his potential thanks to the magic ritual. But since he doesn't use it,he he lost his ultimate,all at once,because of that, he was back to the stage he was before the ritual,an that stage is FFSS,and that should have been his strength,weaker than that is just overkill.
Everything.
Since you mentioned the quality of the arc as it relates to trunks I mentioned the few things I liked about that arc regarding him.
Since I think the complains you made are valid and I agree with then.
The Broly rage form and the spirit bomb asspull,along with the anime not taking 15 second to give a reason why black beat trunks in SS2.
These are all things that could have been solved with one episode,2 at Max.
And that's super's second biggest problem.
Those things stack up to levels that make the fabric of the arc fiscally impossible to happen.
If instead of the time looping and in-universe especulation,we could have developed trunks further and clear all those problems.
You know,that could have been a good way to do a deconstruction of trunks in Super,give him some depression and make him realize that worst and worst things will just keep happening.
Make him doubt him own will and reflect If the desire to protect a doomed planet like Earth was misguided.
But as it stands,he lost his character,he just became the manifestation of what he his,a time traveler of a power doomed future,instead of who he is.
Depends on how he reacts to it.
If he seems in the good alternative future what he could have been had he not be such a failure,we could get some coll development.
If he just gets happy becomes buddy with himself,then yeah,not a bad ending.
Bringing Krillin is just bad fanservice,at least to me,since they didn't try to do nothing to actually make him relevant.
I had negative expectations for Tien since the tag team match with Goku, piccolo and Gohan,so it was hard to disappoint,but the did it anyway.
Even tho it was just wishful thinking,I legit expected Dr.Rota was gonna become some big ass monster with healing powers and say:
But that's just me having wishful thinking.
I actually don't like discussing things that have not ended,but in relation to super and Z,yes I would prefer to either talk about episodes and finished arcs instead of the bigger issues with this unfinished one,but that's just me.
Discuss it all you want.
[/b]"well-developed Universes" like U3 who did nothing more than "let's survive" and"our ace in the tournament is Nigrisshi" who got a lol-KO from Cabba wanting to see Master again.[/quote]
Why were they considered trash?
Because they come from the lowest mortal level universe,even tho power of the top 10 an mortal level are no directly linked.
That's why I said mortal levels are a meme.
But I yes did missread your quote,sorry about that.
U3 is no more Developed than U9,the got same amount of scenes if I'm not mistaken.
Nigrissi getting OHKO by base Cabba is dumb,because it says to the audience that U3 could get solo by Vegeta,and that's not a good precedent to set.
But I want to wait until they are eliminated to say that their performance was worst than U9's.
Ah,those ones.
Goku not recognizing Beerus is not even retardation, it's impossible,unless that costume masks his ki somehow.
Goku was strait up ripped from his senses.
The rest is so retarded I don't even have a comment.
If the point was:
Then yeah,I agree.
No,those were enough.
You say super is badly written.
I agree.
And you use inconsistencies between it and Z, it's character assassination and lack of themes to show that.
Even though what you say is valid,I hold more value in the mind behind each scene,on the why the scene was writen that way,rather than focusing on how it doesn't make sense.
An example would be:
Because Toriyama wanted to set up pan as an SS toddler and start to redo Goku's character by focusing on his stupid side.
Because Toriyama thinks the audience would find that boring,or even not interesting.
This is why I put Z and Super on the same tier of writing,but with Z above because it brings good things to the table instead of just consuming what was there before.
They both are written with the same objective.
Because Toriyama only knows how to make conflict in one way,that why we got freeza 4 months,the SSG ritual being just a power up,SS3, among other things.
Toriyama thinks the same way when writing Z and Super,the problem is that Super has Z at it's back,and if any inconsistency appears,both big and small,
You can just point to Z to show the fatal flaw in Toriyama's writing,
he only know how to make conflict by escalation.If this was done with Toriyama still at the realm,those characters would just be powered up to outmach Goku and Vegeta in the very first saga.
And that's the problem, Toriyama can't write with "lower stakes than last time."
He can only write while scalating up,see DB,DBZ and Super for clear examples.
The good part of ZThere are things that Z does well, and those very things are not present in Super.
In a general sense.
1-The lack of themes
Although I don't personally like much of Z's themes,their presence made the whole thing enjoyable (or maybe the word I'm looking for is intense?).
And the lack of a common themes in the super arcs has made the overall things fell disconnected,like a single frame of porn in a children's movie.
2-Goddamit Goku.(Characters)
Even tho DBZ didn't better all it's characters by the end,it did an good job on the ones it tried.
But since Toriyama's could not think of more things for his characters to do,he regressed them so he could do the same thing again.
3-Z was comfy.
Z did a much better job at handling it's slice of life moments,with a few notable exceptions.
Those things,even though they are much more atmosphere focused,they were important for
my enjoyment of the series.
:origin()/pre00/ed2d/th/pre/f/2011/326/5/2/i_iz_a_ninja_by_agwinxkh-d4gza4y.jpg)
