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Post by Ashanark on Aug 17, 2016 5:48:33 GMT
GT is a running gag to many of us Dragon Ball fans. But when I started writing my own Dragon Ball fanfic about six years ago, I realized that most of its concepts were actually very good. It was just a matter of execution.
So, let's talk a bit about Dragon Ball Gee-Tee.
Some Things That Were Good Ideas (But Not Necessarily Well-Done)
1. A Tuffle villain. The Tuffles always felt like an underused plot thread to me, especially considering that I was an American in the 90's and didn't know about Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. Having a villain being a Tuffle seeking revenge against the Saiyans ideally would have added a bit of moral ambiguity that Dragon Ball hadn't seen before.
2. A parasite villain. Frieza was described as the most powerful being in the universe. With that sort of introduction, the strength of all the villains that came after him always seemed a bit of a stretch to me...So some human scientist can make robots stronger than Frieza? Yeah, right. Some bug thing needs another level of Super Saiyan to beat? Uh-huh. Oh, there was some ancient demon way, way stronger than even the overpowered Super Saiyans, who was never mentioned before now? Sure.
The reason why Baby is a great idea to me is that he is not powerful. He doesn't try to overpower the Super Saiyans--he takes them over and uses their strength to his advantage. How do you fight a villain that takes over your friends? How would you feel, having to fight or maybe kill them? If you haven't trained for the past 15/20 years because you can always count on Goku to save you, what would you do if he was suddenly being controlled by the bad guy? The idea of a parasite villain is a great way to have a formidable baddie without making power levels skyrocket to even more ridiculous heights.
Sadly...none of this really happened.
3. An energy-draining villain. I may not have liked Super 17 that much, but the idea of a power-sucking baddie seems like a good one. The closest we got to that were Androids 19 and 20, and the ability seemed very underused even then. If nothing else, the fact that Super 17 could use the good guys' energy against them was a setup for a villain that took brains, not brawn, to defeat.
4. A reunion of all past villains. Not so original of an idea, but Dragon Ball has so many great bad guys that it was fun to see them all again--especially since some, like Super Perfect Cell and Dabura, would've been a very great threat to the slacking half-Saiyans like Goten and Trunks. Too bad they were all dealt with off-screen, or didn't put up any kind of fight.
5. A return of Saiyan tails and the Oozaru form. While I personally don't like Super Saiyan 4--Super Saiyans, to me, should be golden--I thought it was a great return to the origins of Saiyans, and I actually think Goku and the other Saiyans look better with tails. (Better emphasizes their alien nature.)
6. Making the Dragon Balls the focus again. Really, the Frieza arc was the last time the title of the show was relevant. During the Cell and Buu sagas, the legendary Dragon Balls were just a way to clean up the mess. Dragon Ball GT introduced a new set of Dragon Balls and made the search for them more tense than ever before by saying the earth would be destroyed if they weren't found.
7. Shadow Dragons. What better way to get back at the heroes for so casually treating the Dragon Balls, than to have their use cause great big nasties to appear? The concept of having Shadow Dragons as the ultimate villain is, to me, a great way to bring the story full-circle.
Some Things That Were Bad Ideas
1. Making Goku a kid. Not so much the fact that he was a kid, but more about how it came out of the blue and also changed the tone of the series.
2. Making Goku the only relevant character. No, really--if there ever was a Mary Sue in Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball Super, or Dragon Ball Multiverse...it's GT Goku. His base form alone is more relevant than all other characters combined. Somehow the writers thought that giving Goku every victory and scene was a good idea...and reduced Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to bit roles.
3. Naming Baby "Baby."
4. Messing up both Uub and Pan. All of the buildup for both characters is utterly wasted. The same applies to a lesser extent with Goten and Trunks. Fulfilling the potential of Uub and Pan is one area where DBM has trumped all other competitors, in my eyes.
5. Not having Baby possess Goku. Really, what better way to have Uub take the helm than to have him face his mentor?
6. Having most of the Shadow Dragons look stupid.
7. Not having other characters get to help in taking out all seven Shadow Dragons. What better opportunity to see cool team-ups than here? You could even have made it into a family competition--Goku/Goten racing Vegeta/Trunks racing Gohan/Pan...
8. Ridiculous power levels. If the henchman of the first main villain is as strong as Majin Buu, you've probably gone too far.
Thoughts? What worked about GT? What didn't? What would you change, and how would you change it?
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Post by kinnikuman on Aug 17, 2016 5:55:25 GMT
I think they should have had Goten and Trunks and pan go into space instead. While Goten and Trunks might have had a higher power level then freezia, it still would have been more realistic. I can see some planets being able to get strong warriors now that freezia is dead but not buu level.
Shadow dragons sucked because the dragon isn't that strong. King Piccolo killed it in dragon ball.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 17, 2016 6:21:47 GMT
I find that the best way to have done a succesful Tsufuru revenge saga, is the DBM Raichi's way. I'd personally scrap Baby altogether (although Baby's Vegeta designs were badass). The top idea of GT (which was its only original one as the two previous sagas were ripped off the Raichi's OVA and Fusion Reborn) was Shadow Dragons. This could have been an awesome saga with lots of teamups, groupwork, and different characters shinning, from Uub to a return of an Adult Gotenks or Mystic Gohan. It would have been pretty realistic that the lower tier Dragons were at Super Buu level while the higher tier ones being far beyond that. I find that Young Jiji's Dragon Ball AF solves the teamwork issue pretty well. The downside is that his Dragon designs are at least 10 times worse than the original ones. Shadow dragons sucked because the dragon isn't that strong. King Piccolo killed it in dragon ball. In Dragon Ball, where King Piccolo killed it, Goku and company weren't abusing its use like junkies to fix everything. When Piccolo killed it it had been used at most 3 times over a long time. Very different than all what happened over Z and GT, where they always were the main contingency plan. It was explained it was the abuse and concentration of negative energy that caused them to appear.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 17, 2016 19:47:49 GMT
I share of most of your points, but I see GT most positive than negative. I liked it.
But in fact, when Super came, GT turned much more acceptable (at least to the older fans). Despite of all its problems, GT maintained Dragon Ball's essence:
- Violence and brutal blows. No censure. - No ridicularing characters (like turning Future Trunks into a crying coward). - No ridiculous transformations (like SSj Pink). SSj4 is awesome. - Characters with fighter's physique (muscles).
The plot may not be so good, indeed. But the battles were very good.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 17, 2016 20:12:30 GMT
I share of most of your points, but I see GT most positive than negative. I liked it. But in fact, when Super came, GT turned much more acceptable (at least to the older fans). Despite of all its problems, GT maintained Dragon Ball's essence: - Violence and brutal blows. No censure. - No ridicularing characters (like turning Future Trunks into a crying coward). - No ridiculous transformations (like SSj Pink). SSj4 is awesome. - Characters with fighter's physique (muscles). The plot may not be so good, indeed. But the battles were very good. Pardon me but what you brought up were traits of DB Z not DB as whole. Essence of DB was adventure, quirky humor and a lot of gag moments. Censorship is unfortunate but unavoidable in current society. SSJ 4 was ridiculous both in form and concept itself (Mix First level SSJ and Oozaru and you get power greater than SSJ3 with no drawback? Cute) Ridiculing characters... Aside from his introduction Future Trunks was... Rather a weakling and cautious on the verge of cowardice (Being afraid to go after Androids without Goku, Giving up when Cell proved his "ultimate power" was jack worth it). And let's not forget that GT made anyone not named Goku borderline useless. And don't make me... Start my rant about Pan and Uub... I really don't like GT. I guess I'll never truly like it.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 17, 2016 22:06:26 GMT
I share of most of your points, but I see GT most positive than negative. I liked it. But in fact, when Super came, GT turned much more acceptable (at least to the older fans). Despite of all its problems, GT maintained Dragon Ball's essence: - Violence and brutal blows. No censure. - No ridicularing characters (like turning Future Trunks into a crying coward). - No ridiculous transformations (like SSj Pink). SSj4 is awesome. - Characters with fighter's physique (muscles). The plot may not be so good, indeed. But the battles were very good. Pardon me but what you brought up were traits of DB Z not DB as whole. Essence of DB was adventure, quirky humor and a lot of gag moments. Censorship is unfortunate but unavoidable in current society. SSJ 4 was ridiculous both in form and concept itself (Mix First level SSJ and Oozaru and you get power greater than SSJ3 with no drawback? Cute) Ridiculing characters... Aside from his introduction Future Trunks was... Rather a weakling and cautious on the verge of cowardice (Being afraid to go after Androids without Goku, Giving up when Cell proved his "ultimate power" was jack worth it). And let's not forget that GT made anyone not named Goku borderline useless. And don't make me... Start my rant about Pan and Uub... I really don't like GT. I guess I'll never truly like it. Well, I don't share of your vision. I liked SSj4 design, it was very creative (better than SSj Red, Blue, White or Pink, right?). At least that design can justify itself by saiyans's monkey nature, there is a background involved, while current colored SSjs from DBS were only pulled out from ass. About drawbacks, well, SSj2 also don't possesses any drawback when compared to SSj1. The "drawback" here means that it is an elite level, where few achieve. And about Trunks, first, he did not gave up to Cell by cowardice. That was by his honor code. And in androids's case, he was still very young and unexperienced, but that badass Trunks who returned from past and killed tha cyborgs would NEVER act like that Trunks from DBS. I really can't understand those who complain about GT and don't do the same about DBS. The "sins" of DBS are light-years worse than GT.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 17, 2016 22:46:18 GMT
Pardon me but what you brought up were traits of DB Z not DB as whole. Essence of DB was adventure, quirky humor and a lot of gag moments. Censorship is unfortunate but unavoidable in current society. SSJ 4 was ridiculous both in form and concept itself (Mix First level SSJ and Oozaru and you get power greater than SSJ3 with no drawback? Cute) Ridiculing characters... Aside from his introduction Future Trunks was... Rather a weakling and cautious on the verge of cowardice (Being afraid to go after Androids without Goku, Giving up when Cell proved his "ultimate power" was jack worth it). And let's not forget that GT made anyone not named Goku borderline useless. And don't make me... Start my rant about Pan and Uub... I really don't like GT. I guess I'll never truly like it. Well, I don't share of your vision. I liked SSj4 design, it was very creative (better than SSj Red, Blue, White or Pink, right?). At least that design can justify itself by saiyans's monkey nature, there is a background involved, while current colored SSjs from DBS were only pulled out from ass. About drawbacks, well, SSj2 also don't possesses any drawback when compared to SSj1. The "drawback" here means that it is an elite level, where few achieve. And about Trunks, first, he did not gave up to Cell by cowardice. That was by his honor code. And in androids's case, he was still very young and unexperienced, but that badass Trunks who returned from past and killed tha cyborgs would NEVER act like that Trunks from DBS. I really can't understand those who complain about GT and don't do the same about DBS. The "sins" of DBS are light-years worse than GT. I agree with you for the most part. From what we've seen now, I gotta say DBGT is slightly superior than DBS. Excessive Goku-centrism. In DBS, we can say it's a bit diverged to Vegeta and Beerus/Whis. Only improvement it has so far. DBGT at least managed to have a little tension despite that.
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Post by The Masterman on Aug 17, 2016 22:59:07 GMT
Worst issues with GT:
1: Goku being a kid again. 2: Pilaf and co. 3: black star dragonballs 4: it feels like they ripped off several DBZ sagas. 5: making Uub, Trunks, Goten and Vegeta useless. 6: everything Baby. 7: Super Sayian 4. 8: Super Sayian 4 Vegeta. 9: the Shenrongs.
To start it feels like a fanfic where the writer couldn't write anything original and fell back onto DB and DBZ nostalgia.
Like kid Goku, Pilaf and co, the journey into space for dragonballs, main villain is like gum and is unstoppable, teen Trunks, hell is forced open and evil spills out onto earth, let's have androids fuse.
Vegeta gets the worst treatment by being forced into a parenting role, then throwing away his character in order to gain SS4.
SS4 isn't that great neither is the design and no I don't like SSG or SSGSS but SSG was used well in BoG.
Super Android 17 is cool but feels like a ripoff of the android saga and super android 13.
That whole arc is also somewhat Fusion Reborn hell even Gogetto/Gogeta (forget which one) even shows up later.
Also Vegeta gets tricked into being evil though he was fully controlled unlike with what Babidi did to him.
DBZ hyped Uub being the greatest but GT curb stomps his greatness to cannonfodder.
They have counting all Sayians but Bra and including Piccolo and Uub they have 8 strong warriors but no lets only have the three we've been following this whole time fight the 7 Shenrongs.
And finally making the plot device/mcguffins/series namesake the final villains is annoyingly dumb but then again we might have gotten a villain who was basically Frieza/Cell/Buu but stronger.
Oh and I remember trying to watch the series on tv when it first showed and they skipped a lot of episodes and later on released said episodes as lost episodes...
God I hate GT.
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Post by Archon on Aug 17, 2016 23:07:50 GMT
I find that the best way to have done a succesful Tsufuru revenge saga, is the DBM Raichi's way. I'd personally scrap Baby altogether (although Baby's Vegeta designs were badass). The top idea of GT (which was its only original one as the two previous sagas were ripped off the Raichi's OVA and Fusion Reborn) was Shadow Dragons. This could have been an awesome saga with lots of teamups, groupwork, and different characters shinning, from Uub to a return of an Adult Gotenks or Mystic Gohan. It would have been pretty realistic that the lower tier Dragons were at Super Buu level while the higher tier ones being far beyond that. I find that Young Jiji's Dragon Ball AF solves the teamwork issue pretty well. The downside is that his Dragon designs are at least 10 times worse than the original ones. Shadow dragons sucked because the dragon isn't that strong. King Piccolo killed it in dragon ball. In Dragon Ball, where King Piccolo killed it, Goku and company weren't abusing its use like junkies to fix everything. When Piccolo killed it it had been used at most 3 times over a long time. Very different than all what happened over Z and GT, where they always were the main contingency plan. It was explained it was the abuse and concentration of negative energy that caused them to appear. Don't forget that Dende made the dragon stronger when he became guardian.
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Post by The Masterman on Aug 17, 2016 23:11:04 GMT
Worst issues with GT: 1: Goku being a kid again. 2: Pilaf and co. 3: black star dragonballs 4: it feels like they ripped off several DBZ sagas. 5: making Uub, Trunks, Goten and Vegeta useless. 6: everything Baby. 7: Super Sayian 4. 8: Super Sayian 4 Vegeta. 9: the Shenrongs. To start it feels like a fanfic where the writer couldn't write anything original and fell back onto DB and DBZ nostalgia. Like kid Goku, Pilaf and co, the journey into space for dragonballs, main villain is like gum and is unstoppable, teen Trunks, hell is forced open and evil spills out onto earth, let's have androids fuse. Vegeta gets the worst treatment by being forced into a parenting role, then throwing away his character in order to gain SS4. SS4 isn't that great neither is the design and no I don't like SSG or SSGSS but SSG was used well in BoG. Super Android 17 is cool but feels like a ripoff of the android saga and super android 13. That whole arc is also somewhat Fusion Reborn hell even Gogetto/Gogeta (forget which one) even shows up later. Also Vegeta gets tricked into being evil though he was fully controlled unlike with what Babidi did to him. DBZ hyped Uub being the greatest but GT curb stomps his greatness to cannonfodder. They have counting all Sayians but Bra and including Piccolo and Uub they have 8 strong warriors but no lets only have the three we've been following this whole time fight the 7 Shenrongs. And finally making the plot device/mcguffins/series namesake the final villains is annoyingly dumb but then again we might have gotten a villain who was basically Frieza/Cell/Buu but stronger. Oh and I remember trying to watch the series on tv when it first showed and they skipped a lot of episodes and later on released said episodes as lost episodes... God I hate GT. Also I should add SS4 was only added because they wrote themselves into a corner by making the villains OP.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 17, 2016 23:33:26 GMT
Well, I don't share of your vision. I liked SSj4 design, it was very creative (better than SSj Red, Blue, White or Pink, right?). At least that design can justify itself by saiyans's monkey nature, there is a background involved, while current colored SSjs from DBS were only pulled out from ass. About drawbacks, well, SSj2 also don't possesses any drawback when compared to SSj1. The "drawback" here means that it is an elite level, where few achieve. And about Trunks, first, he did not gave up to Cell by cowardice. That was by his honor code. And in androids's case, he was still very young and unexperienced, but that badass Trunks who returned from past and killed tha cyborgs would NEVER act like that Trunks from DBS. I really can't understand those who complain about GT and don't do the same about DBS. The "sins" of DBS are light-years worse than GT. I agree with you for the most part. From what we've seen now, I gotta say DBGT is slightly superior than DBS. Excessive Goku-centrism. In DBS, we can say it's a bit diverged to Vegeta and Beerus/Whis. Only improvement it has so far. DBGT at least managed to have a little tension despite that. Slightly? You are being gentle I know that is a matter of personal opinion... But the fact is that DBS made mistakes much worse than DBGT and even so, some people worship DBS while cursing DBGT. Sincerely, I can't understand that.
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Post by MB on Aug 18, 2016 0:24:52 GMT
I liked how Goku got a tan while living with Uub. I know that probably sounds sarcastic, but I've always genuinely liked that little detail.
What else...I grew to like Gogeta's SS4 over my time playing Xenoverse. I also like Giru for some reason.
I'm really trying right now but that's about all I liked in GT to be honest. It was too corny and slow.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 18, 2016 16:39:07 GMT
Well, I don't share of your vision. I liked SSj4 design, it was very creative (better than SSj Red, Blue, White or Pink, right?). At least that design can justify itself by saiyans's monkey nature, there is a background involved, while current colored SSjs from DBS were only pulled out from ass. About drawbacks, well, SSj2 also don't possesses any drawback when compared to SSj1. The "drawback" here means that it is an elite level, where few achieve. And about Trunks, first, he did not gave up to Cell by cowardice. That was by his honor code. And in androids's case, he was still very young and unexperienced, but that badass Trunks who returned from past and killed tha cyborgs would NEVER act like that Trunks from DBS. I really can't understand those who complain about GT and don't do the same about DBS. The "sins" of DBS are light-years worse than GT. I agree with you for the most part. From what we've seen now, I gotta say DBGT is slightly superior than DBS. Excessive Goku-centrism. In DBS, we can say it's a bit diverged to Vegeta and Beerus/Whis. Only improvement it has so far. DBGT at least managed to have a little tension despite that. Ok let me elaborate on this a bit further and more thoroughly. I don't deny that SSJ4 taking it roots into Oozaru is an interesting and potentially deep combo but... It just doesn't seem to mix well when it comes to how Toei handle it. For starters let's look at requirements for this form. One has to be Super Sayian, have tail and trigger and control the Oozaru transformation. Let me be honest - those requirements especially last one is hard only for Goku. And this is only because he was unaware of Oozaru form when he had a tail, thus never learned to control it. Not a single time in the manga (unlike the dubbed anime) Vegeta said controlling Oozaru was uncommon. In fact it would be very dumb if it was a case. One full moon would be enough for Sayians to wipe themselves out of planets existence. Thing that bugs me as well is the that further transformation seems to trigger automatically when the conditions are met. Once again... Why? Why does controlling the Gold Oozaru form suddenly triggers it going further? Makes absolutely no sense in that regard and it was never explained. Furthermore why getting into this form suddenly turns it first user into Adult? What's the deal with magic pants? Design itself while I admit is not bad (though over designed I'd say) also makes little sense. Why is the fur red? If this was meant to symbolize in any way "humanizing the Oozaru" why the fur isn't Brown? Or since you were golden ape before why is it not Gold? Where the heck they pulled of that pinkish red color from? And last major problem... Why Vegeta suddenly grows back a tail while in this form but loses it when turning back? These are the things that make it poorly designed. Sure Super Sayian God and Super Sayian Blue were less original but at least they didn't produce those problems. And the last thing that really boggles me... Energy Increase in SSJ4. It seems to be same no matter the level of Sayian who used it as Vegeta who due to lack of SSJ 3 should be weaker than Goku is equal to him when they both go SSJ4. Speaking of which... Why the fuck SSJ4 Gogeta has Red hair and brown fur? Oh yeah and Level 2 had drawbacks. Huge one to say... I assume you failed to notice that it made Gohan turn 180? From a kind kid he instantly turned into coldblooded monster who enjoyed causing his opponent pain... No wonder Kid was afraid to unleash this power. And now getting to Trunks... Oh god you watched anime, right? Probably English dub? I ask because Anime had that nasty tendency of gloryfing characters even beyond manga level. Because in the manga he really wasn't that much of a badass (and as I said I consider Manga more canon than anime in regards of DBZ). Let's see how he looked when Cell brutally shown him his bulked form is useless and isn't even that special If that's a look of a guy who's dying because his honor code then I live a lie. Because for me it looks like a guy who just lost all hope and decided to throw his life away. Pardon for citing TFS here but... Cell: Geez I can't tell which is more shattered. Your father's body or your spirit. (...) Cell: Oh and spirit it is. And yes he did look awesome when he fought Androids and Cell in his future but... Seriously at that point he was way above their level. For the recap his timeline androids were WEAKER than ones he encountered in "past" and when he reached Ascended SSJ level he outclassed Semi-perfect Cell. Add to the boot he likely achieved FPSSJ when learned about it from Goku and the fight wasn't even a contest. As of his treatment in Super. He went SSJ2 so he got even stronger and even with all that power he was curbstomped by Black and couldn't even save those he cared about. Good luck not turning even more broken and scared after such event. Especially since he always lacked that mental strength Goku or even Vegeta had. Tension is... Subjective here. Considering Goku in GT spent one third of a show in base form there was more frustration than tension during battles while "looming doom" successfully overshadowed the "light" tone they tried to put in the black star dragon balls arc. Baby Arc had potential though sadly felt wasted. And then halfway through the show Goku goes SSJ4. I didn't feel tension after that. Not a single time since the show already proven that no one other than Goku will really do anything useful. I felt no tension during Super 17 and more often sighed at sheer stupidity of its plot. Only moment I did feel something was during fight with Omega when Vegeta shown up but... That was quickly wasted as they decided to utilize fusion dance. Pardon me but at that point I face palmed really hard. I could see it from miles and knew exactly what's going to happen and... Yes Gogeta repeated Gotenks mistake, played too much and run out of time -.- Sheesh why does the results of Fusion Dance ALWAYS let their Ego get better of them? Vegetto seemed arrogant but at least he HAD A FREAKIN PLAN (and wasn't on time limit). And so the whole tension was gone again and we had a massive repeat of the Buu saga end where Goku throws a giant Genkidama... Yes in DBS tension is sorta nulified with Beerus and Whis being (for now) on the protagonists side but... Those two tend to watch from sidelines and gets involved only when they really need to. Besides DBS at least for me manages to capture the charming moments from early DB which I say it openly was the best part of the franchise. Battles were more clever and less reliant on pure strength, humor was charming. Z was kinda declining and did it fast (For me personally things started to drop after Sayian Saga) and GT sadly clinged to Z bit too hard.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 18, 2016 23:44:00 GMT
Well, I will go by parts too About SSj2 having the "drawback" of turning the saiyan into a "cool blooded monster", that's not true. Super Saiyan itself (since SSj1) already was about to do this (according to the legend), but the anime shows that it depends more of each saiyan's personality. SSj1 Goku was able to show mercy against Freeza, SSj2 Goku also was not a cool blooded monster, not even SSj3. Gohan against Cell was enraged by Cell's actions, not by the SSj2 itself. About SSj4 design, I can agree with you about the colors... In fact, they were designed only to generate a beautiful look, there is no concrete reasons behind them. And pants... They came only by censure. But the idea itself of basing on the oozaru form was much more creative than just change the hair color many times (first red, second blue, and now pink?). And about Trunks, I insist: it was by his honor code. Once Cell perceived the failure from USSJ form, Trunks would prefer to die instead of simply revert to normal SSj and try to fight again. Because Cell perceived a thing that Trunks himself did not ABOUT HIS OWN TRANSFORMATION. This was like a shame to him, then, he considered himself defeated. And fusions tends to be cocky and arrogant because they know they are unmatched.
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Post by The Masterman on Aug 19, 2016 2:31:51 GMT
Well, I will go by parts too About SSj2 having the "drawback" of turning the saiyan into a "cool blooded monster", that's not true. Super Saiyan itself (since SSj1) already was about to do this (according to the legend), but the anime shows that it depends more of each saiyan's personality. SSj1 Goku was able to show mercy against Freeza, SSj2 Goku also was not a cool blooded monster, not even SSj3. Gohan against Cell was enraged by Cell's actions, not by the SSj2 itself. About SSj4 design, I can agree with you about the colors... In fact, they were designed only to generate a beautiful look, there is no concrete reasons behind them. And pants... They came only by censure. But the idea itself of basing on the oozaru form was much more creative than just change the hair color many times (first red, second blue, and now pink?). And about Trunks, I insist: it was by his honor code. Once Cell perceived the failure from USSJ form, Trunks would prefer to die instead of simply revert to normal SSj and try to fight again. Because Cell perceived a thing that Trunks himself did not ABOUT HIS OWN TRANSFORMATION. This was like a shame to him, then, he considered himself defeated. And fusions tends to be cocky and arrogant because they know they are unmatched. They were unmatched until they went to fight. Gotanks never really did much to Buu, and then got absorbed. Gogeta in GT wasted his time and they found out they didn't need him. Fusion Reborn and Vegetto is where fusion worked the best. The fight in FR was great and Vegetto could have won if he hadn't let Buu absorb him.
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Post by Archon on Aug 19, 2016 3:45:22 GMT
Well, I will go by parts too About SSj2 having the "drawback" of turning the saiyan into a "cool blooded monster", that's not true. Super Saiyan itself (since SSj1) already was about to do this (according to the legend), but the anime shows that it depends more of each saiyan's personality. SSj1 Goku was able to show mercy against Freeza, SSj2 Goku also was not a cool blooded monster, not even SSj3. Gohan against Cell was enraged by Cell's actions, not by the SSj2 itself. About SSj4 design, I can agree with you about the colors... In fact, they were designed only to generate a beautiful look, there is no concrete reasons behind them. And pants... They came only by censure. But the idea itself of basing on the oozaru form was much more creative than just change the hair color many times (first red, second blue, and now pink?). And about Trunks, I insist: it was by his honor code. Once Cell perceived the failure from USSJ form, Trunks would prefer to die instead of simply revert to normal SSj and try to fight again. Because Cell perceived a thing that Trunks himself did not ABOUT HIS OWN TRANSFORMATION. This was like a shame to him, then, he considered himself defeated. And fusions tends to be cocky and arrogant because they know they are unmatched. They were unmatched until they went to fight. Gotanks never really did much to Buu, and then got absorbed. Gogeta in GT wasted his time and they found out they didn't need him. Fusion Reborn and Vegetto is where fusion worked the best. The fight in FR was great and Vegetto could have won if he hadn't let Buu absorb him. Actually when it came to SS4 Gogeta it was more a "We're gonna end this here and now.....oh shit SS4 made us defuse WAY earlier than normal" good luck on their part the Spirit Bomb worked. EDIT: skip to 10:30 If they had even 2 more minutes they'd have won while fused.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 19, 2016 4:05:10 GMT
Ah I think you missed the point when I mentioned character shift in Gohan's case when he went level 2. Level one changes were relatively minor and easy to overcome. As you said Goku did that in just 5 minutes, Gohan had time to work it out and Vegeta... Um he was always sadistic as heck. Level 2... Well it really wasn't nice... We've seen Gohan going nuts before and it never was this bad. He didn't just want to kill his opponent (as it was a case with his normal rage bursts) he wanted him to suffer. And he enjoyed every moment of that. Even in Buu saga he still seems much less composed when transformed. As of Goku and Geets they seem to have better grasp on the form since they took time to master it. Yes I do believe Vegeta reached the level on his own and used Babbidi spell to erase his weakness (any emotional attachment to his family and friends) rather than just power boost. As of level 3 it's the only form that's reached purely by training rather than requiring emotional trigger.
Honor code... Seriously? I really fail to notice that on that panel I sent. All it shows is a kid who lost all hope and will to life. Nothing so high as being honor bound to die because I failed to notice the flaw. But have it your way.
One last note about color coded God form. Pink aka Super Sayian Rosa seems to be unique for Black whose origins and source of God Ki are so far unknown. Can't say much but the color may have something to with that. And I must say that this particular shade combined with Black gives him the menacing look.
Red and Blue seems to be rooted in Flame theory (Blue flame being hotter than the red one) and may have to do with more spiritual aspect of those forms. Red is "given" and likely impossible to reach on user's own volition (differs between Manga and anime since in the latter Goku doesn't go red outside BoG arc) thus making it uncontrollable to some degree. Blue is usually associated with calmness and self control which seems to be defining characteristics of Super Sayian Blue. After all Goku and Vegeta were only able to reach it after Whis's training which in large part consisted of very precise Ki control. Goku also described Blue's energy as calm and gentle which is why he even considered combining it with Kaioken. At least that's how I view those forms. Not to mention that their simplicity in design allows their use with any sayian design rather than just our short haired duo.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 19, 2016 14:24:51 GMT
Well, I will go by parts too About SSj2 having the "drawback" of turning the saiyan into a "cool blooded monster", that's not true. Super Saiyan itself (since SSj1) already was about to do this (according to the legend), but the anime shows that it depends more of each saiyan's personality. SSj1 Goku was able to show mercy against Freeza, SSj2 Goku also was not a cool blooded monster, not even SSj3. Gohan against Cell was enraged by Cell's actions, not by the SSj2 itself. About SSj4 design, I can agree with you about the colors... In fact, they were designed only to generate a beautiful look, there is no concrete reasons behind them. And pants... They came only by censure. But the idea itself of basing on the oozaru form was much more creative than just change the hair color many times (first red, second blue, and now pink?). And about Trunks, I insist: it was by his honor code. Once Cell perceived the failure from USSJ form, Trunks would prefer to die instead of simply revert to normal SSj and try to fight again. Because Cell perceived a thing that Trunks himself did not ABOUT HIS OWN TRANSFORMATION. This was like a shame to him, then, he considered himself defeated. And fusions tends to be cocky and arrogant because they know they are unmatched. They were unmatched until they went to fight. Gotanks never really did much to Buu, and then got absorbed. Gogeta in GT wasted his time and they found out they didn't need him. Fusion Reborn and Vegetto is where fusion worked the best. The fight in FR was great and Vegetto could have won if he hadn't let Buu absorb him. Gotenks only lost because he toyed a lot. If he had got serious since beginning, he would win. SSj4 Gogeta is the same case. But I think this is one of the failures from GT: Janemba's movie shows that Gogeta is merciless and get serious. But in GT he was toying. And Vegetto, I guess he would not toy too much against Buu if not by pretending to be absorbed. I bet he would do like Gogeta did to Janemba. JaquanFirst, about Gohan, well, if someone do to me what Cell did to Gohan, I would act like Gohan too. He was inflicting suffering not to an innocent person, but to an HEDIOND CRIMINAL who tortures and murders innocent people for free, and enjoys it. You may not blame Gohan for that reaction. About the colors, in some cultures, blue is the color of love and considered God's fav color. These cultures call God "The Blue Father". This could be an interesting bond to Divine Ki and thus SSjBlue, but I think this is not the case with Akira and/or TOEI. Most of japaneses are not religious. The color of purity to the japaneses is white. This is because kimonos are white. And yes, that pink was pulled from ass just to give Black a menacing look, nothing more. There is no logical reason behind that.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 19, 2016 15:04:37 GMT
Akroma Interesting point but does that apply only to Cell? Both Nappa and Freeza were under the same category yet angered Gohan didn't aim for torturing them, he went straight for the kill. And as he matured he started to grow affraid of his own anger. He clearly doesn't even want to kill Cell. And yet he loses all of the kindness when he goes SSJ 2. Is it because he was so angry? Or did the power have similar but much stronger effect to what happened to Goku when he went SSJ? We can never be sure but seeing how similar his behavior was to Goku when he transformed I assume the latter. Funny... When I give it a deeper thought I almost call Super Sayian and "evil power". In the end it's not strength brought from any positive emotion. It's a power born from insane amount of anger, hatred and urge for revenge. But that probably should go in different topic.
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Post by kinnikuman on Aug 19, 2016 15:17:40 GMT
Akroma Interesting point but does that apply only to Cell? Both Nappa and Freeza were under the same category yet angered Gohan didn't aim for torturing them, he went straight for the kill. And as he matured he started to grow affraid of his own anger. He clearly doesn't even want to kill Cell. And yet he loses all of the kindness when he goes SSJ 2. Is it because he was so angry? Or did the power have similar but much stronger effect to what happened to Goku when he went SSJ? We can never be sure but seeing how similar his behavior was to Goku when he transformed I assume the latter. Funny... When I give it a deeper thought I almost call Super Sayian and "evil power". In the end it's not strength brought from any positive emotion. It's a power born from insane amount of anger, hatred and urge for revenge. But that probably should go in different topic. You know what you mentioned about SSJ being a evil power should have been played with better by the half Sayians. I mean if after the Dabura fight Gohan did go mad and attacked with such ferocity that he put Videl or his mom in danger, it would explain why he stopped training. He wouldn't be lazy but scared of what he could do.
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