Improving Dragon Ball GT

First things first I reckon Pan should wear a long skirt coz if a chick is gonna whinge like a useless bitch she may as well look the part, fuck it, same with Trunks, if only coz I reckon he could rock the shit out of a skirt. Maybe a mini skirt for Trunks. Yea.

No offense but this is rather petty. One of these bad ideas was actually re-done by super and likely was the largest highlight of the show. And this was the dumbest idea on GT (this should speak volumes). 17 on the ToP was basically a Super 17 done right.

A Tsuful taking revenge (although used before with Raichi) was a pretty good idea.

Same for the shadow dragons, originated from the very dragon balls they have used and abused to scapegoat all the problems and save everyone every time they mess up (which has been pretty often) finally coming back and asking for retribution.

Some of the common ideas gathered from past threads:

Don't turn Goku into a kid.
Let the next generation (Trunks, Goten, Pan, Uub) go off into space.
Revamp the origin of the BSDBs
Have Baby infect Goku instead of Vegeta (purely optional)
Change SS4's colour scheme (purely optional)
Remove Super 17 arc completely or use it as an excuse to let the B-team face older villains.
Let the other Z-Fighters be involved with facing the Shadow Dragons.

And just for me, remove the misc. goofy elements like the game show dimension and Para Para brothers, and tighten up the fight scenes a little. SS4 Goku vs Baby starts off strongly but near the end has a few scenes that make me wonder if they got an unpaid intern to do that part of the storyboard.

Bring back a forgotten character - check
Make Improvements to him? - No. turning him into Android 19 whose been on a diet for a couple years is dumb :\
Make him give serious troube- For all two epsides was it? before he gets King Piccolo'd? I didn't think he was giving much trouble, personally. He beat up SSJ4 because everyone kept throwing energy at him.
Make him sacrifice himself in the blast- Not... really? He got a hole punched through him and the hole got expanded. Even if they hadn't brutally shot bigger holes in his gut, I think that kind of wound is fatal.

It was bad.

It was really contrived. The whole source of it was super contrived. It was total nonsense. Drawing parallels to super seems to be really... strange. You're broadening those concepts so much they don't even really mean the same thing, beyond the first point.

A: Yes, it was really dumb putting him on Goku Blue's level.
B: Sure is. It's real long in a series that was only 64 episodes because it was really bad.
C: Not really when they're all only a fraction of Goku's power. None of them could touch touch Goku at this point, and all of them were side characters, even Vegeta.
D: A18 said that to make herself feel better. There isn't much evidence for it. No comments or behaviours really, beyond him killing Dr. Myuu, but that could just be 17 acting out... like when he killed Dr. Gero... the first time.

And bringing back 17 in the way they did, was a terrible idea. Again, you are broadening this concept to the point where it doesn't mean anything.

Bring back 17 to fight in the ToP? Neat.

Bring back 17 to fight all the fighters again and merge with an illogical clone of himself, and turn into Android 19 on a diet? And completely screw up his original backstory, concept, and even make Cell make no sense?

These are not the same thing. These aren't the same concept. They just both happen to involve 17.

If Super 17 had been a bad idea that was executed well and turned awesome, it still conceptually would be extremely distant from Super's 17. That doesn't change the fact that I disagree that they're not really conceptually linked.

One story has Goku turn into a child, and eventually learn Super Saiyan 4.

The other story has Goku train with the Gods, and eventually turn blue.

The only common thread is they both involve Goku. That's a pretty tenuous link. They're not the same.

The same argument is easily put forward for 17, and even more easily. Given that 17 had a different concept clearly in this, and was very much contrived.

I am arguing that GT "using a forgotten character" is such a broad term that it holds no meaning. It's basically saying-

"Well the concept of using a forgotten character was fine."

"But in their concept, none of it made sense and it was garbage."

"AH! But it was the concept of using that character in the first place. So it's the same."

No. It's not the same. I think at a conceptual Level, Super 17 was a terrible idea. It was a terrible idea that was also poorly executed, making it even worse.

The problem is, GT unfolded in a very specific way.

How are you going to make 17 a villain again? What's going to motivate him? It's too far divorced from the story as it was. The same problem comes from Baby, Doctor Myuu, and all the other trash that was compacted into Dragon Ball GT. The show was so deeply flawed from its inception that it's extremely difficult to build something out of it that's not tainted. Even if the core cast hadn't been ignored, they're just be further tainted by the show itself. Dragon Ball GT was really bad. To improve it is to write a completely different series. And at that point its not Dragon Ball GT anymore.

I don't think Dragon Ball Super's a bad show?

Most of its filler's pretty meh, but the core stuff's not bad. BoG RoF were basically redone in worse animation, but I don't see them as conceptually flawed. I really enjoyed Zamasu/Goku Black. I'm digging the Tournament of Power. I don't see it as being flawed at its conception.

Given that all of GT is filler basically...

And which fanfics would we be referring to here? And let's be very real here, a lot of what Super does is no-brainer stuff.

An Evil Kai as the badguy? Both the creative team and the community can easily come up with this. I came up with an Evil Kai as the badguy of The Long Road years before Super, and I don't see that as being them ripping me off at all. It's just such an obvious concept to make a badguy at this stage of the story. Doing the obvious thing isn't always bad. Sometimes doing the obvious thing is the right direction to take. People liked Future Trunks, they brought him back for an arc, this was again an obvious crowd pleasing element, it doesn't make it innately bad or good.

There are probably a hundred thousand Dragon Ball fanfics out there, or more. It seems silly to lambast them for having elements of any of those stories in Super, as if they sneakily read them. Firstly, a lot of those stories do the obvious thing, secondly, it's pretty insane to think that two people couldn't think up the same idea.

I never understood that about any community. I saw similar freakouts with some old Marvel boards I was on when Marvel came out with similar ideas that were in fics. It never crossed my mind that they read them, as in those instances... the fics took things in a pretty obvious direction.