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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 20:09:07 GMT
Again, hundred thousand + fanworks, many of which make sense, doesn't make Super "ripping it off". I'm not saying it didn't either, I'm just saying that let's be real, it's a very obvious direction for the show to go in.
And GT tried a lot of new things!
Like making Goku a child again. So he could go on lighthearted adventures again...
Giving Trunks a sword again. Good. Good.
Having the Saiyans clash with the Tuffles/Plant people again in a ripoff of one of their video games from before?
Fighting all their bad guys from Hell again, and fighting the evil Doctor Gero and Android 17 again.
New things eh?
Super being cancelled early is something which is bizarre. It has very strong ratings, and big Merchandise Sales. Dragon Ball GT had middling ratings, people didn't really dig it, and it actually had a decline in merchandise sales.
GT being cancelled at Episode 64 was not shocking. GT being erased from Canon, was not shocking.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 20:18:37 GMT
Again, hundred thousand + fanworks, many of which make sense, doesn't make Super "ripping it off". I'm not saying it didn't either, I'm just saying that let's be real, it's a very obvious direction for the show to go in. Just how many fanfics have a greenish dude with white hair who is an invincible half Saiyan-half Kaioshin weirdly obsessed with mortals? That's oddly specific. Again, this doesn't take into account TOYOTARO was the one who created this Xicor character. It wasn't any random fanfic but an earlier fanfic of someone actually writing the manga, which makes the connection all the stronger. DBAF is the most famous (and possibly the first widely known) fan comic. It is not some obscure writing we're talking about. The funny thing is that Goku in DBS is also a kid in behavior, except he has a mature body. All in all, the most original, unseen idea in both DBGT and DBS was the Shadow Dragons. All else have (to various extents) taken inspiration from previous or external materials (Super A17, Babi, Goku Black/Zamasu) or directly rehashed them (Battle of Gods, RoF). Trunks had a sword in GT? It's the same case as A17. "That they are both Androids doesn't mean anything" as you said some posts ago. Or just like you said now a few sentences ago "anyone who writes fanfics could think about tuffle revenge" Yes, Babi saga was a copy of "Plan to Eradicate Saiyans" but as you explained me with Super A17, basically the only thing they have in common is that they're both angry tsufuls. I think the comparison has more merit in this case but nonetheless this was no straight rehashing like replaying both BoG and RoF. This whole saga was a rip-off of Fusion Reborn. But then again, how is this any worse than rehashing BoG and RoF with poorer animation? It was never supposed to be canon in the first place. A lot of us expected DBSuper to eventually overwrite GT yet it didn't. And I think this wrong marketing was one of the reason of its failure: Anyone could chalk anything wrong of DBGT as "Toriyama didn't participate so it's shitty!" while anything wrong in DBS get passed as "Toriyama did it! Awesome!".
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 20:20:30 GMT
Well boys, have fun with this one going back on topic.
o7
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Post by Symbiotic on Feb 17, 2018 21:09:37 GMT
Some of the common ideas gathered from past threads: Don't turn Goku into a kid. Let the next generation (Trunks, Goten, Pan, Uub) go off into space. Revamp the origin of the BSDBs Have Baby infect Goku instead of Vegeta (purely optional) Change SS4's colour scheme (purely optional) Remove Super 17 arc completely or use it as an excuse to let the B-team face older villains. Let the other Z-Fighters be involved with facing the Shadow Dragons. And just for me, remove the misc. goofy elements like the game show dimension and Para Para brothers, and tighten up the fight scenes a little. SS4 Goku vs Baby starts off strongly but near the end has a few scenes that make me wonder if they got an unpaid intern to do that part of the storyboard. How would you revamp the Black Star Dragon Balls? Give them a new creator or have an arc involve them coming to Earth? I’m curious, because I liked how they would use Black Star balls. The destruction gave it an intended consequence that I think could have create tension and them dispersing into space was the perfect execuse to have the characters explore space in depth and visit other worlds. It would be neat if in addition to learning about new races we got to learn the status of Planet Trade Organization, maybe introduced Freeza’s home planet into the mix and explore his race, build up pro Baby arc better or building up the threat of Machine Mutant Army, have it being the threat that is replacing Freeza’s family in space. It could even be an excuse to register Namek again on friendlier terms. New races could be great places to introduce new allies and rivals. The adventure and exploration ideas were good, but suffered from making everything comedic early on. I know it was supposed to capture the early feel of DB, but I think they could have done that and balanced things out to have some comedic and serious tones mingled into it. That's one of the complaints I've seen with no easy fix for. The way around that I've seen is to have the heroes go into space for a different reason entirely and either hear rumours about the Machine Mutants or a new set of dragon balls. The BSDBs were a good excuse to get things off world but other than that you can erase them. Unless you need a wish that Shenron couldn't grant or a way for Earth to be destroyed in a way that couldn't be stopped.
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Post by Ashanark on Feb 17, 2018 21:47:48 GMT
Conceptually I think GT's got a lot of great ideas on how to continue the series.
1. Bringing back Dragon Balls, but all over the universe I think this is great. The universe is big, and outside of Namek, Toriyama NEVER explored it. (Coincidentally, just like how he created 11 other universes in DBS and never explored THEM either, give or take a filler scene.) Not only that, but GT even had the presence of mind to raise the stakes by putting a time limit on the quest and a consequence on if the DBs weren't gathered. This is a perfectly fine idea, and honestly Dragon Ball has been sorely lacking a spirit of adventure present in so many other excellent stories. It would've been better if there was an antagonistic force trying to gather them as well--one thing I liked about Namek saga is that there are three separate factions all trying to get the same thing. This also would've been a good opportunity to involve the rest of the cast: split the Z-Fighters up into teams and send each one after a Dragon Ball.
2. Smaller cast. Let's face it. It is very hard to give everyone the screentime they deserve, so GT's decision to focus the story on a mere three people is, in principle, a decision I can get behind. The problem is that neither Pan or Trunks really do anything, and since Goku so utterly outclasses not only them but every opponent they face, it doesn't work. Had it been Goten, Pan, and Uub though? We might've gotten some good stuff.
3. Villain ideas. One thing I give to GT's credit is how many of the villains are threats not because they start powerful, but because they somehow turn the heroes' strengths against them. Yeah, Rilldo is a mook who's inexplicably Majin Buu tier (terrible decision), but Baby is actually quite weak. He's a threat because he takes advantage of your own strength. The Saiyans are the most powerful things in the universe...what if he takes them over, though? This also theoretically put the heroes in quite the predicament, since they might have to fight and kill their friends. He has the whole planet worshiping him as a god...how do you save a world that doesn't want to be saved?
Great idea, bad execution.
Super 17 is merely a further development on the idea of Androids 19 and 20, which I felt were far more terrifying in concept than 17 and 18, if not in appearance and performance. 17 is initially no threat to Goku, but he keeps getting stronger...and stronger...and stronger. Give that power-draining ability to a new villain and you've got a great bad guy to build your arc around.
Then Shadow Dragons. The series' title became irrelevant after Namek, with the DBs limited solely to damage control. Not only has the viewer lost their respect for the DBs, but so have the characters. Shadow Dragons not only raise the stakes--"you CANNOT bring people back unless you defeat us, because we ARE the Dragon Balls!"--but bring the story full-circle by reminding the viewer of past wishes and events. I still stand by my opinion that a redone Shadow Dragons saga would be the best way to end the series.
I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of "this villain is a threat merely because he is stronger/has more powers than everyone else." There hasn't truly been a DB villain that's a threat simply because it's intelligent/can turn the heroes' strengths against them or nullify their strengths, but GT's come the closest, at least conceptually.
4. Bringing back Saiyan tails in order to unlock a new transformation. That's better, to me, than "just push really hard and find ANOTHER level." Even though I've never been a fan of SS4's design I can't fault it for wanting to evoke a "mastered Oozaru," and it's objectively a more complex design (and therefore, I would argue more creative) than SSG, SSB, or Ultra Instinct.
Really, in so many ways I think GT made the correct decisions in where the series should go...it's just they made poor decisions in how to do it. One of those poor decisions was making Goku the only relevant character. DBS still is very Goku-centric, but on the whole its most solid win over GT is that it at least lets other characters besides Goku win fights.
I would love to see a redo of GT that, as Symbiotic said, focuses on the younger generation, and gives other characters a chance. A search for the Dragon Balls, fighting Shadow Dragons, and Baby possessing people would've been great opportunities. I feel the franchise as a whole is far too obsessed with Goku, and it might do the series some good to let the poor guy retire in style. (Which GT tried to do: that Shenron ending is very touching.)
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 17, 2018 23:13:27 GMT
How would you revamp the Black Star Dragon Balls? Give them a new creator or have an arc involve them coming to Earth? I’m curious, because I liked how they would use Black Star balls. The destruction gave it an intended consequence that I think could have create tension and them dispersing into space was the perfect execuse to have the characters explore space in depth and visit other worlds. It would be neat if in addition to learning about new races we got to learn the status of Planet Trade Organization, maybe introduced Freeza’s home planet into the mix and explore his race, build up pro Baby arc better or building up the threat of Machine Mutant Army, have it being the threat that is replacing Freeza’s family in space. It could even be an excuse to register Namek again on friendlier terms. New races could be great places to introduce new allies and rivals. The adventure and exploration ideas were good, but suffered from making everything comedic early on. I know it was supposed to capture the early feel of DB, but I think they could have done that and balanced things out to have some comedic and serious tones mingled into it. That's one of the complaints I've seen with no easy fix for. The way around that I've seen is to have the heroes go into space for a different reason entirely and either hear rumours about the Machine Mutants or a new set of dragon balls. The BSDBs were a good excuse to get things off world but other than that you can erase them. Unless you need a wish that Shenron couldn't grant or a way for Earth to be destroyed in a way that couldn't be stopped. To be perfectly honest I didn’t mind so much of the secret reveal that the original Kami made the Black Star Balls after he had been exposed to the horrors of man and that tainted his first attempt at creating the Dragon Balls. I get why people hated how these new sets of Dragon Balls were in the Lookout this whole time and Pilaf finding out about them and the infamous wish to make Goku a kid again. I feel like there is a way this could work. Maybe Kami was so ashamed of them maybe he gave them King Kai or another deity to hide them some where. Or some other Namek who escaped the original planet’s destruction like Kami could have made them. They were so vague about Namek’s original population and how many people ventured off into space that more escaping isn’t far fetched. One of them also being corrupted by horrors or evils of another race to the point that they made gained Dragon Balls also isn’t that far fetched. There is a way for the Black Star Dragon Balls to work.
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Post by Symbiotic on Feb 18, 2018 9:55:19 GMT
That's one of the complaints I've seen with no easy fix for. The way around that I've seen is to have the heroes go into space for a different reason entirely and either hear rumours about the Machine Mutants or a new set of dragon balls. The BSDBs were a good excuse to get things off world but other than that you can erase them. Unless you need a wish that Shenron couldn't grant or a way for Earth to be destroyed in a way that couldn't be stopped. There is a way for the Black Star Dragon Balls to work. Definitely. I'm just saying you don't need to do that for a GT rewrite. I'd want to see the younger cast in the spotlight for the first saga so removing the earth's impending doom suits me. Or maybe Gohan can go with them idk.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 11:10:35 GMT
One aspect I didn't like about the time limit for the BSDB was that it was too short and forced the exploration of space to be rushed, if only just to get through the saga quickly but I think it was to it's detriment.
I was thinking that when the BSDB's were scattered their "evil" energy returning to earth should be the time limit, which could lead into the Shadow Dragon Saga directly in some way I am too tired to come up with right now.
Wait, am I even making sense atm? Meh, I'll post it anyway and check in on this "idea" in the morning.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 19, 2018 7:13:43 GMT
There is a way for the Black Star Dragon Balls to work. Definitely. I'm just saying you don't need to do that for a GT rewrite. I'd want to see the younger cast in the spotlight for the first saga so removing the earth's impending doom suits me. Or maybe Gohan can go with them idk. The first arc could be an introduction arc. Instead of Kami creating the Black Star Dragon Balls before he split from Piccolo it is a new Namek character who went to a different planet and created them there. Conflicts of that world creating darkness in him could easily work and keep the Black Star balls with the same planet destroying effect intact. The new Namek character could find his way to Earth with one of the balls to keep it away from a baddie group that has the other six already. They follow him to Earth. That by itself could probably be 10-13 episode mini arc where the story is set up, introduce new characters, reintroduce the older characters, and show the audience how everyone changed five years after Z. The arc ends with said baddies gathering all the Dragon Balls, the only way to stop them is for someone to make a silly wish. The balls scatter throughout the galaxy. They find out from the new Namek character that if the Balls aren't returned to Earth within a year's time (of the planet they were created on, which leaves rooms open to have it being the same as a year on Earth or longer than an Earth year if they want to extend things) the Earth will be destroyed. The new generation could go out into space to find them and return them to Earth. It is in character for Goku to suggests the kids go out and do this for themselves. Dragon Ball has had Goku go on extended absences before, so him staying on Earth wouldn't be out of nowhere. I'm not sure how big people want this team, but we would have six potential new generation characters to go on the trip. There are Uub and Pan naturally. We have Goten and Trunks, but we could also get Bra and Maron in there too. Bra's doesn't need to be a fighter. She could take after Bulma and be the brains of the group. They would need someone like that to help maintain the ship and Dragon Radar. Maron was such a blank slate that she could easily be a fighter like Krillin and 18. She may not be a power house, but she could have techniques her dad had to be a strong support fighter for the group. It would be a new Dragon Ball hunting team.
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Post by Symbiotic on Feb 19, 2018 20:56:26 GMT
Definitely. I'm just saying you don't need to do that for a GT rewrite. I'd want to see the younger cast in the spotlight for the first saga so removing the earth's impending doom suits me. Or maybe Gohan can go with them idk. The first arc could be an introduction arc. Instead of Kami creating the Black Star Dragon Balls before he split from Piccolo it is a new Namek character who went to a different planet and created them there. Conflicts of that world creating darkness in him could easily work and keep the Black Star balls with the same planet destroying effect intact. The new Namek character could find his way to Earth with one of the balls to keep it away from a baddie group that has the other six already. They follow him to Earth. That by itself could probably be 10-13 episode mini arc where the story is set up, introduce new characters, reintroduce the older characters, and show the audience how everyone changed five years after Z. The arc ends with said baddies gathering all the Dragon Balls, the only way to stop them is for someone to make a silly wish. The balls scatter throughout the galaxy. They find out from the new Namek character that if the Balls aren't returned to Earth within a year's time (of the planet they were created on, which leaves rooms open to have it being the same as a year on Earth or longer than an Earth year if they want to extend things) the Earth will be destroyed. The new generation could go out into space to find them and return them to Earth. It is in character for Goku to suggests the kids go out and do this for themselves. Dragon Ball has had Goku go on extended absences before, so him staying on Earth wouldn't be out of nowhere. I'm not sure how big people want this team, but we would have six potential new generation characters to go on the trip. There are Uub and Pan naturally. We have Goten and Trunks, but we could also get Bra and Maron in there too. Bra's doesn't need to be a fighter. She could take after Bulma and be the brains of the group. They would need someone like that to help maintain the ship and Dragon Radar. Maron was such a blank slate that she could easily be a fighter like Krillin and 18. She may not be a power house, but she could have techniques her dad had to be a strong support fighter for the group. It would be a new Dragon Ball hunting team. That sounds good. I was thinking of tying Garlic Sr into that but I got tired trying to wrestle all the plot snags into submission.
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