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Post by Son Pan on Feb 16, 2018 23:17:35 GMT
We're always talking about ways to improve DBS, but we don't really talk about way to improve the original sequel Dragon Ball GT. GT was bad for a lot of fans, but many seem to agree that it had a lot of great ideas that suffered from bad execution. With the right changes GT could have been a great sequel to the original Dragon Ball manga and Dragon Ball Z anime. There were some concepts that if done better could have surpassed the original series. It would be fun to see people's ideas on how to improve GT and how we could have gotten a great series from it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 23:32:21 GMT
First things first I reckon Pan should wear a long skirt coz if a chick is gonna whinge like a useless bitch she may as well look the part, fuck it, same with Trunks, if only coz I reckon he could rock the shit out of a skirt. Maybe a mini skirt for Trunks. Yea.
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 8:52:34 GMT
I think most of the ideas were bad as well. Straight up.
The shadow dragons? bad.
Bebi/Baby? bad.
The reverted age? Well we know that's bad.
Super 17? Dumb.
No, I genuinely can't think of any redeeming qualities in it. Super Saiyan 4 looks stupid too.
The best way to improve it is easy. Go back in time, and prevent it from having been made.
That would be the best version of GT. The version that doesn't exist.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 9:05:40 GMT
I think most of the ideas were bad as well. Straight up. The shadow dragons? bad. Bebi/Baby? bad. The reverted age? Well we know that's bad. Super 17? Dumb.No, I genuinely can't think of any redeeming qualities in it. Super Saiyan 4 looks stupid too. The best way to improve it is easy. Go back in time, and prevent it from having been made. That would be the best version of GT. The version that doesn't exist. No offense but this is rather petty. One of these bad ideas was actually re-done by super and likely was the largest highlight of the show. And this was the dumbest idea on GT (this should speak volumes). 17 on the ToP was basically a Super 17 done right. A Tsuful taking revenge (although used before with Raichi) was a pretty good idea. Same for the shadow dragons, originated from the very dragon balls they have used and abused to scapegoat all the problems and save everyone every time they mess up (which has been pretty often) finally coming back and asking for retribution.
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 18:46:26 GMT
Super 17 wasn't redone by Super though. Not at all.
17 trained, was a good hearted ranger now, has a family and lives a life that's kind of selfless. Goes on to fight in the ToP.
Super 17 is the idea that Doctor Gero and Doctor Myuu (his bad looking GT knockoff of himself) secretly built a replica of Android 17 in Hell (with what Materials exactly?), and then mind controlled 17 on Earth. Now, it gets even more dumb, when Gero reveals 17 was always going to be his greatest creation (then why make Cell at all? Huh?), and this would complete his design.
Contrived. Dumb and contrived.
17 in Super comes from a completely different place, and completely different intention.
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Post by Symbiotic on Feb 17, 2018 18:47:45 GMT
Some of the common ideas gathered from past threads:
Don't turn Goku into a kid. Let the next generation (Trunks, Goten, Pan, Uub) go off into space. Revamp the origin of the BSDBs Have Baby infect Goku instead of Vegeta (purely optional) Change SS4's colour scheme (purely optional) Remove Super 17 arc completely or use it as an excuse to let the B-team face older villains. Let the other Z-Fighters be involved with facing the Shadow Dragons.
And just for me, remove the misc. goofy elements like the game show dimension and Para Para brothers, and tighten up the fight scenes a little. SS4 Goku vs Baby starts off strongly but near the end has a few scenes that make me wonder if they got an unpaid intern to do that part of the storyboard.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 18:50:25 GMT
Super 17 wasn't redone by Super though. Not at all. 17 trained, was a good hearted ranger now, has a family and lives a life that's kind of selfless. Goes on to fight in the ToP. Super 17 is the idea that Doctor Gero and Doctor Myuu (his bad looking GT knockoff of himself) secretly built a replica of Android 17 in Hell (with what Materials exactly?), and then mind controlled 17 on Earth. Now, it gets even more dumb, when Gero reveals 17 was always going to be his greatest creation (then why make Cell at all? Huh?), and this would complete his design. Contrived. Dumb and contrived. 17 in Super comes from a completely different place, and completely different intention. It's the same basic idea but executed in a far better manner, and dropping all unnecessary "Fusion Reborn" repetitions. -Bring a forgotten character: check -Make him have great improvements: check -Make him give serious trouble (in GT, to the heroes, in DBS, to the other universes): check -Make him sacrifice himself with a blast (in GT it's implied the good part of 17 sorta did it): check As for the better creation... well wouldn't that be the same case in DBS since A17 there could basically bitchslap Super Perfect Cell just by looking at him? Yes, the execution of GT is characterized by rather interesting ideas with piss poor executions. But there is nothing inherently dumb in bringing back A17, bringing back tsufuls, or turn the Dragon Balls into a threat. All these ideas by themselves could be good with appropriate execution (case in point: bringing back A17 and the much lacking awesomeness it brought to DBS).
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 18:54:11 GMT
Bring back a forgotten character - check Make Improvements to him? - No. turning him into Android 19 whose been on a diet for a couple years is dumb :\ Make him give serious troube- For all two epsides was it? before he gets King Piccolo'd? I didn't think he was giving much trouble, personally. He beat up SSJ4 because everyone kept throwing energy at him. Make him sacrifice himself in the blast- Not... really? He got a hole punched through him and the hole got expanded. Even if they hadn't brutally shot bigger holes in his gut, I think that kind of wound is fatal.
It was bad.
It was really contrived. The whole source of it was super contrived. It was total nonsense. Drawing parallels to super seems to be really... strange. You're broadening those concepts so much they don't even really mean the same thing, beyond the first point.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 18:58:49 GMT
Bring back a forgotten character - check Make Improvements to him? - No. turning him into Android 19 whose been on a diet for a couple years is dumb :\ Make him give serious troube- For all two epsides was it? before he gets King Piccolo'd? I didn't think he was giving much trouble, personally. He beat up SSJ4 because everyone kept throwing energy at him. Make him sacrifice himself in the blast- Not... really? He got a hole punched through him and the hole got expanded. Even if they hadn't brutally shot bigger holes in his gut, I think that kind of wound is fatal. It was bad. It was really contrived. The whole source of it was super contrived. It was total nonsense. Drawing parallels to super seems to be really... strange. You're broadening those concepts so much they don't even really mean the same thing, beyond the first point. A) Is it really as dumb as making him go to almost SSJBlue levels? B) 2 episodes is quite long for GT's 64 chapters C) Is not kicking the shit out of everyone until Goku saves the day giving trouble? D) It was kinda implied the good consciousness on A17 did it to some extent. The Good part of A17 sacrificed himself in some way (as far I know he wasn't revived back). The idea of bringing back A17 is not bad. It was just the terrible execution of GT, as was with the other sagas. If you think: -Tsuful villain -Android coming back -Dragon Balls being a threat are that bad (by concept! not execution), what do you think about: -One rehashed movie -Freeza comes back (and also a rehashed movie) -Small "filler" tournament -Evil Goku and Kaioshin taken directly from a fanfic (and these were the only true original villains, go figure) -Yet Another tournament arc (in the form of an extended Smash Bros match) I just think you are holding GT to a far higher standard than DBS.
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 19:03:38 GMT
A: Yes, it was really dumb putting him on Goku Blue's level. B: Sure is. It's real long in a series that was only 64 episodes because it was really bad. C: Not really when they're all only a fraction of Goku's power. None of them could touch touch Goku at this point, and all of them were side characters, even Vegeta. D: A18 said that to make herself feel better. There isn't much evidence for it. No comments or behaviours really, beyond him killing Dr. Myuu, but that could just be 17 acting out... like when he killed Dr. Gero... the first time.
And bringing back 17 in the way they did, was a terrible idea. Again, you are broadening this concept to the point where it doesn't mean anything.
Bring back 17 to fight in the ToP? Neat.
Bring back 17 to fight all the fighters again and merge with an illogical clone of himself, and turn into Android 19 on a diet? And completely screw up his original backstory, concept, and even make Cell make no sense?
These are not the same thing. These aren't the same concept. They just both happen to involve 17.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 19:05:33 GMT
A: Yes, it was really dumb putting him on Goku Blue's level.B: Sure is. It's real long in a series that was only 64 episodes because it was really bad. C: Not really when they're all only a fraction of Goku's power. None of them could touch touch Goku at this point, and all of them were side characters, even Vegeta. D: A18 said that to make herself feel better. There isn't much evidence for it. No comments or behaviours really, beyond him killing Dr. Myuu, but that could just be 17 acting out... like when he killed Dr. Gero... the first time. And bringing back 17 in the way they did, was a terrible idea. Again, you are broadening this concept to the point where it doesn't mean anything. Bring back 17 to fight in the ToP? Neat. Bring back 17 to fight all the fighters again and merge with an illogical clone of himself, and turn into Android 19 on a diet? And completely screw up his original backstory, concept, and even make Cell make no sense? These are not the same thing. These aren't the same concept. They just both happen to involve 17. Yet putting him on Goku's level was good after all, as non-sensical as it was. Which pretty much proves my point that a good idea can turn shitty (like most of GT and the ToP) and a shitty idea can be executed very well for awesome results (SSJBlue level A17).
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 19:13:49 GMT
If Super 17 had been a bad idea that was executed well and turned awesome, it still conceptually would be extremely distant from Super's 17. That doesn't change the fact that I disagree that they're not really conceptually linked.
One story has Goku turn into a child, and eventually learn Super Saiyan 4.
The other story has Goku train with the Gods, and eventually turn blue.
The only common thread is they both involve Goku. That's a pretty tenuous link. They're not the same.
The same argument is easily put forward for 17, and even more easily. Given that 17 had a different concept clearly in this, and was very much contrived.
I am arguing that GT "using a forgotten character" is such a broad term that it holds no meaning. It's basically saying-
"Well the concept of using a forgotten character was fine."
"But in their concept, none of it made sense and it was garbage."
"AH! But it was the concept of using that character in the first place. So it's the same."
No. It's not the same. I think at a conceptual Level, Super 17 was a terrible idea. It was a terrible idea that was also poorly executed, making it even worse.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 19:30:09 GMT
I am not saying they were exactly the same. Just like Baby/Myuu could be used to mirror Raichi/Hatchiyack despite lots of specifics and the whole arc were different. Now that you mention, the closest mirror to Super A17 would actually be Golden Freeza.
All I'm saying is the idea of making a super A17 as a villain (and the hell prison break) is not bad in itself, even if the explanation for its existence was underwhelming. Just like the idea of Dragon Balls as a threat was not bad by itself even if most of the villains ended up looking like horned muppets on crack.
Don't get me wrong, I still think GT is shitty, and specially the whole super 17 ordeal. But the main idea of the other 2 sagas was not bad at all. Even if the execution was miserable, the concepts of these were better than anything super came out with.
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 19:36:00 GMT
The problem is, GT unfolded in a very specific way.
How are you going to make 17 a villain again? What's going to motivate him? It's too far divorced from the story as it was. The same problem comes from Baby, Doctor Myuu, and all the other trash that was compacted into Dragon Ball GT. The show was so deeply flawed from its inception that it's extremely difficult to build something out of it that's not tainted. Even if the core cast hadn't been ignored, they're just be further tainted by the show itself. Dragon Ball GT was really bad. To improve it is to write a completely different series. And at that point its not Dragon Ball GT anymore.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 19:37:33 GMT
The problem is, GT unfolded in a very specific way. How are you going to make 17 a villain again? What's going to motivate him? It's too far divorced from the story as it was. The same problem comes from Baby, Doctor Myuu, and all the other trash that was compacted into Dragon Ball GT. The show was so deeply flawed from its inception that it's extremely difficult to build something out of it that's not tainted. Even if the core cast hadn't been ignored, they're just be further tainted by the show itself. Dragon Ball GT was really bad. To improve it is to write a completely different series. And at that point its not Dragon Ball GT anymore. Would not this apply to DBSuper too? I know this is off topic but I can't help but think all the points you're saying about GT being bad, also apply to DBSuper and even worse, and I remember you having a far better opinion of it. At this point, the only clear advantage it has is Goku not being a kid again and no Pan. And also upgrading it from Goku time to Goku and Vegeta time (though I admit there have been notable exceptions). So what's what makes it a sin in DBGT but something completely acceptable in DBS?
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 19:43:34 GMT
I don't think Dragon Ball Super's a bad show?
Most of its filler's pretty meh, but the core stuff's not bad. BoG RoF were basically redone in worse animation, but I don't see them as conceptually flawed. I really enjoyed Zamasu/Goku Black. I'm digging the Tournament of Power. I don't see it as being flawed at its conception.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 19:46:10 GMT
I don't think Dragon Ball Super's a bad show?Most of its filler's pretty meh, but the core stuff's not bad. BoG RoF were basically redone in worse animation, but I don't see them as conceptually flawed. I really enjoyed Zamasu/Goku Black. I'm digging the Tournament of Power. I don't see it as being flawed at its conception. Exactly. I am interested in why you don't think it's a bad show but you think GT is so terrible, since DBS for the most part has been consistently shittier than it (though I admit there are select moments where DBS has shined brighter). DBSuper fits every criticism you've done for GT (and sometimes even maxxed out) but you think it's "not (that) bad". You do not think making a big interquel filler that won't let an history truly advance is flawed? You do not think rehashing two movies is flawed? You do not think mashing up two outside fanfics in the form of Goku Black and Zamasu (which you've just admitted really liking) is flawed? You do not think that the only true original content on it were just 2 tournaments?
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Post by Drakthul on Feb 17, 2018 19:55:50 GMT
Given that all of GT is filler basically...
And which fanfics would we be referring to here? And let's be very real here, a lot of what Super does is no-brainer stuff.
An Evil Kai as the badguy? Both the creative team and the community can easily come up with this. I came up with an Evil Kai as the badguy of The Long Road years before Super, and I don't see that as being them ripping me off at all. It's just such an obvious concept to make a badguy at this stage of the story. Doing the obvious thing isn't always bad. Sometimes doing the obvious thing is the right direction to take. People liked Future Trunks, they brought him back for an arc, this was again an obvious crowd pleasing element, it doesn't make it innately bad or good.
There are probably a hundred thousand Dragon Ball fanfics out there, or more. It seems silly to lambast them for having elements of any of those stories in Super, as if they sneakily read them. Firstly, a lot of those stories do the obvious thing, secondly, it's pretty insane to think that two people couldn't think up the same idea.
I never understood that about any community. I saw similar freakouts with some old Marvel boards I was on when Marvel came out with similar ideas that were in fics. It never crossed my mind that they read them, as in those instances... the fics took things in a pretty obvious direction.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 17, 2018 19:56:28 GMT
Some of the common ideas gathered from past threads: Don't turn Goku into a kid. Let the next generation (Trunks, Goten, Pan, Uub) go off into space. Revamp the origin of the BSDBs Have Baby infect Goku instead of Vegeta (purely optional) Change SS4's colour scheme (purely optional) Remove Super 17 arc completely or use it as an excuse to let the B-team face older villains. Let the other Z-Fighters be involved with facing the Shadow Dragons. And just for me, remove the misc. goofy elements like the game show dimension and Para Para brothers, and tighten up the fight scenes a little. SS4 Goku vs Baby starts off strongly but near the end has a few scenes that make me wonder if they got an unpaid intern to do that part of the storyboard. How would you revamp the Black Star Dragon Balls? Give them a new creator or have an arc involve them coming to Earth? I’m curious, because I liked how they would use Black Star balls. The destruction gave it an intended consequence that I think could have create tension and them dispersing into space was the perfect execuse to have the characters explore space in depth and visit other worlds. It would be neat if in addition to learning about new races we got to learn the status of Planet Trade Organization, maybe introduced Freeza’s home planet into the mix and explore his race, build up pro Baby arc better or building up the threat of Machine Mutant Army, have it being the threat that is replacing Freeza’s family in space. It could even be an excuse to register Namek again on friendlier terms. New races could be great places to introduce new allies and rivals. The adventure and exploration ideas were good, but suffered from making everything comedic early on. I know it was supposed to capture the early feel of DB, but I think they could have done that and balanced things out to have some comedic and serious tones mingled into it.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 17, 2018 19:59:28 GMT
Given that all of GT is filler basically...And which fanfics would we be referring to here? And let's be very real here, a lot of what Super does is no-brainer stuff. An Evil Kai as the badguy? Both the creative team and the community can easily come up with this. I came up with an Evil Kai as the badguy of The Long Road years before Super, and I don't see that as being them ripping me off at all. It's just such an obvious concept to make a badguy at this stage of the story. Doing the obvious thing isn't always bad. Sometimes doing the obvious thing is the right direction to take. People liked Future Trunks, they brought him back for an arc, this was again an obvious crowd pleasing element, it doesn't make it innately bad or good. There are probably a hundred thousand Dragon Ball fanfics out there, or more. It seems silly to lambast them for having elements of any of those stories in Super, as if they sneakily read them. Firstly, a lot of those stories do the obvious thing, secondly, it's pretty insane to think that two people couldn't think up the same idea. I never understood that about any community. I saw similar freakouts with some old Marvel boards I was on when Marvel came out with similar ideas that were in fics. It never crossed my mind that they read them, as in those instances... the fics took things in a pretty obvious direction. No more than an interquel settling after Buu saga and before the actual ending. That's the actual definition of filler, dragging out and inserting things, which is basically the entire existence of DBS. At least DBGT attempted to be something more than filler despite failing miserably. DBSuper didn't even try. As for the Evil Kai and anyone coming up with that. Indeed they did, most of Merged Zamasu was basically a rehashed concept of the very own Toyotaro's earlier DBAF as Xicor with some elements of DB Ex Apocalypto. I am not saying the idea of that saga was "fan-ficish" as a insult. I am saying it was directly ripped off from 2 fan comics (rehashed would be proper since one was Toyotaro's DBAF). Invincible half-Kaioshin/Saiyan with white hair and superiority complex (and also featuring a good amount of greenery) Initially mysterious Evil God possesses Goku body and wreaks havoc:
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