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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 11:02:38 GMT
Universe 8 is in a weird place where it is supposed to be a joke, yet still be part over the larger story as befits Freeza's status as a legendary villain. I think that with how DBM is written that the two sides aren't as compatible. It probably should have just been given the Broly treatment where some new things were added to strengthen them up a bit so they could take part in the larger story as they are right now. They still hold the title of strongest natural mortals and had the biggest influence over the other universes. Many of the other contestants have only gotten where they are now due to their encounter with the Frost Demons. I would've considered that enough because making Freeza stronger would only make Cooler look like an idiot. He went to the trouble of unlocking a new transformation when he could've just trained in his original form? The "payoff" for powering up Freeza at the expense of Cooler isn't worth it in my opinion since he wouldn't be getting any further in the tournament. The Frost Demons were the most common threat among all the universes so I honestly would've had them treated worse. Most other villains were dispatched shortly after they rose to power or if the won in their universe they've only been in power for a few decades at most. The Frost Demons ruled for thousands of years so that's a lot of karma finally catching up to them. Salagir had Goku only one-shot Freeza while I probably would've had him hold back and pay homage to their iconic battle by having Goku give Freeza a verbal and physical ass kicking. The only way I would be willing to rearrange the tournament for the Frost Demons would be to have U18 Vegeta vs Freeza but it would probably end like Vegeta vs Kakarotto or worse. I'm not sure what Salagir has planned for Ginyu but I assume he's the only reason he had U8 stay. They joined the tournament for the Dragonballs but they don't have any other character arc or conflict they're trying to overcome aside from maybe wanting to avenge their father now. If it hadn't been for Babidi possessing them, they probably would've killed Ginyu and went home. I don't know why Bojack joined the tournament but I assume it had to do with the Dragonballs since he's in the same position as the Frost Demons and has almost everything he could want in his universe. In the Bojack Unbound, we don't learn Bojack's origin and we're left to assume he's just a really strong alien. In DBM, he was a super soldier created to fight the Frost Demons so he's yet another character that only exists due to their empire's influence.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 16, 2018 13:32:53 GMT
Universe 8 is in a weird place where it is supposed to be a joke, yet still be part over the larger story as befits Freeza's status as a legendary villain. I think that with how DBM is written that the two sides aren't as compatible. It probably should have just been given the Broly treatment where some new things were added to strengthen them up a bit so they could take part in the larger story as they are right now. They still hold the title of strongest natural mortals and had the biggest influence over the other universes. Many of the other contestants have only gotten where they are now due to their encounter with the Frost Demons. I would've considered that enough because making Freeza stronger would only make Cooler look like an idiot. He went to the trouble of unlocking a new transformation when he could've just trained in his original form? The "payoff" for powering up Freeza at the expense of Cooler isn't worth it in my opinion since he wouldn't be getting any further in the tournament. The Frost Demons were the most common threat among all the universes so I honestly would've had them treated worse. Most other villains were dispatched shortly after they rose to power or if the won in their universe they've only been in power for a few decades at most. The Frost Demons ruled for thousands of years so that's a lot of karma finally catching up to them. Salagir had Goku only one-shot Freeza while I probably would've had him hold back and pay homage to their iconic battle by having Goku give Freeza a verbal and physical ass kicking. The only way I would be willing to rearrange the tournament for the Frost Demons would be to have U18 Vegeta vs Freeza but it would probably end like Vegeta vs Kakarotto or worse. I'm not sure what Salagir has planned for Ginyu but I assume he's the only reason he had U8 stay. They joined the tournament for the Dragonballs but they don't have any other character arc or conflict they're trying to overcome aside from maybe wanting to avenge their father now. If it hadn't been for Babidi possessing them, they probably would've killed Ginyu and went home. I don't know why Bojack joined the tournament but I assume it had to do with the Dragonballs since he's in the same position as the Frost Demons and has almost everything he could want in his universe. In the Bojack Unbound, we don't learn Bojack's origin and we're left to assume he's just a really strong alien. In DBM, he was a super soldier created to fight the Frost Demons so he's yet another character that only exists due to their empire's influence. Nothing prevents Cooler from being made stronger either though. Nobody on here suggested Cooler stays the same and only Freeza gets stronger. Both of them could have gotten an augmented form and trained to get stronger like the Saiyans. I think most people are merely arguing that making them stronger is fine and most fans would probably accept it. I know you personally wouldn’t because you have explained your problems with Freeza just training to get stronger and feels it over complicates things. I do think more fans would be fan with it if it was established in the comic as long as it wasn’t a ridiculously high power up like making Freeza as strong as Vegetto. In terms of not rearranging the tournament then I suppose keeping things the same, but strengthening the Frost Demons than I suppose it could still work. Let’s say Cooler and Trunks fight instead of easily dominating Cooler once Trunks goes SS1 he finds Cooler is actually able to keep up with him and they have a decent battle. Maybe Trunks beats Cooler before he can transform. That battle alone would make Goku and Vegeta talk about how the Frost Demons are stronger than when they fought them almost 30 years ago and peak their interest in fighting them. It still saves Trunks vs. Vegeta match. Freeza and Goku could be similar. Freeza shows off an augmented form and forces Goku to use SS2. They have a good battle before Goku finally wins. It is in Goku’s character to reserve his strength and fighting Freeza at SS2 level through training would be something that interest him. This is purely for an entertaining fight. It eliminates the need to have Buu Grant Freeza a gift in the first place. Ginyu story can stay mostly the same too. His power might have to be buffed up further to possibly reach between SS2 and SS3 with his augmented form, but it just gives Bra an opponent that doesn’t need to do the bet thing to begin with just to give us an entertaining fight. If need be he could steal her body after he loses like before, When the time comes for Babidi to possess them the stronger Frost Demons would require all hands on deck. The two Piccolos needing to work together to justify defeating Majin Freeza and Majin Cooler makes a bit more sense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 15:16:15 GMT
Nothing prevents Cooler from being made stronger either though. Nobody on here suggested Cooler stays the same and only Freeza gets stronger. Both of them could have gotten an augmented form and trained to get stronger like the Saiyans. I think most people are merely arguing that making them stronger is fine and most fans would probably accept it. I know you personally wouldn’t because you have explained your problems with Freeza just training to get stronger and feels it over complicates things. I do think more fans would be fan with it if it was established in the comic as long as it wasn’t a ridiculously high power up like making Freeza as strong as Vegetto. I meant it would make Cooler look bad for training on his own and only unlocking a 5th form if we've going to boost Freeza up to SSJ2. You're saying that some fans would be okay with it which is why I felt this discussion is more about what Frost Demons want to see rather than anything being wrong with the current theory about their power. If Salagir only powered up the Frost Demons to SSJ2 tier, should he leave Piccolo and Trunks as only FPSSJ tier? I would say most likely he would boost them up as well so their battles wouldn't change. If he didn't should their fans complain those characters weren't treated fairly? That shouldn't concern the author as long as he's doing what he thinks makes sense for the story. It's something I prefer about a fan comic because they're doing it for free so there's no incentive to alter the story or power up a character based on their popularity.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 16, 2018 15:58:58 GMT
Nothing prevents Cooler from being made stronger either though. Nobody on here suggested Cooler stays the same and only Freeza gets stronger. Both of them could have gotten an augmented form and trained to get stronger like the Saiyans. I think most people are merely arguing that making them stronger is fine and most fans would probably accept it. I know you personally wouldn’t because you have explained your problems with Freeza just training to get stronger and feels it over complicates things. I do think more fans would be fan with it if it was established in the comic as long as it wasn’t a ridiculously high power up like making Freeza as strong as Vegetto. I meant it would make Cooler look bad for training on his own and only unlocking a 5th form if we've going to boost Freeza up to SSJ2. You're saying that some fans would be okay with it which is why I felt this discussion is more about what Frost Demons want to see rather than anything being wrong with the current theory about their power. If Salagir only powered up the Frost Demons to SSJ2 tier, should he leave Piccolo and Trunks as only FPSSJ tier? I would say most likely he would boost them up as well so their battles wouldn't change. If he didn't should their fans complain those characters weren't treated fairly? That shouldn't concern the author as long as he's doing what he thinks makes sense for the story. It's something I prefer about a fan comic because they're doing it for free so there's no incentive to alter the story or power up a character based on their popularity. How so? If it takes both of them years of training to reach SS2 level I think both still look competent. I mean Vegeta is not exactly incompetent for training for seven years and not reaching SS2 and SS3 the same as Goku. It is not so much he should concern himself with popularity, but more me pointing out it stands out as odd when every other major DB villain receives a power up and some of them seem far bigger than they seemed. For example King Piccolo is still as strong as 17 or 18 despite not having Nail and Kami in him and being in a universe where he would face far less challenges than the main Piccolo. U13 Vegeta becoming a SS2 on threshold of reaching SS3 when there is no incentive to push him that far after he slaughters Freeza and his family (most were surprise he was even SS2 when he first revealed it). It feels weird that Freeza and his family are still the same level yet their story is part of DBM. I agree with you on it being his choice and respect it for what it is. However, like with everything else we are going to discuss it or even criticize it. Nothing we say will likely influence the comic and it probably shouldn’t either. If we’re discuss this topic we should discuss possiblities of why it was written like that and if it holds up. Cold needing an extra form just to give Bra a challenge and coming up with a super complicated design probably could have been done better had the Frost Demons been buffed up a little more. Since the tournament is meant for entertainment as well there doesn’t seem to be a harm in buffing them up rather than make Ginyu the outlier and give him another new form to even out to Perfect Cell. Just seems simpler to level them up like Piccolo, Vegeta, Cell, and Majin Buu or roll them into another universe like U11 where them being weaker and enslaved by Babidi makes sense. Did every villain need their own villain world? It feels like U8 should have Babidi in charge or Broly rampaging through it and destroying everything.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 16:48:30 GMT
How so? If it takes both of them years of training to reach SS2 level I think both still look competent. I mean Vegeta is not exactly incompetent for training for seven years and not reaching SS2 and SS3 the same as Goku. It is not so much he should concern himself with popularity, but more me pointing out it stands out as odd when every other major DB villain receives a power up and some of them seem far bigger than they seemed. For example King Piccolo is still as strong as 17 or 18 despite not having Nail and Kami in him and being in a universe where he would face far less challenges than the main Piccolo. U13 Vegeta becoming a SS2 on threshold of reaching SS3 when there is no incentive to push him that far after he slaughters Freeza and his family (most were surprise he was even SS2 when he first revealed it). It feels weird that Freeza and his family are still the same level yet their story is part of DBM. Freeza and Cooler had a sibling rivalry for a hundreds of years but that never compelled them to train that much. They would have to go through something major to force them to suddenly go all out in their training within the last 30 years when they barely put in any effort in the last few hundred. The other main villains were much younger in comparison. I agree about King Piccolo because I don't think he could be anywhere near #17 by only training and fusing with Kami but I'm going to wait to see what happened in U3. U13 Vegeta was under Freeza's rule most of his life and had to turn SSJ. I also agree about him turning SSJ2 so I'm going to wait to see how he obtained it in his universe. Cell and Buu were basically babies compared to the other villains. Cell was born, went back in time, and absorbed #17 and #18 to become perfect. After losing to Gohan and getting a Zenkai, it makes sense he realized he wasn't as perfect as he thought and that there was room to grow. He has no interest in taking over the universe or anything aside from becoming more perfect. Buu was created, absorbed two Kaioshin, and then sealed for five million years. Defeating the Z fighters gave him the chance to finally do something other than what he was original created for. He's similar to Cell in that he doesn't really have an interest in anything other than improving himself, acquiring more knowledge, abilities, etc. In my opinion, Freeza is most similar to Bojack. Freeza was a freak mutation and Bojack was a science experiment but neither one had any interest in self-improvement and only wanted to abuse that power to dominate the universe. Dabura might have been the same. Maybe he was born a really powerful demon and trained just enough to surpass the current king or he was already gifted with enough power to take over. When we look at all the villains in DBM, the Frost Demons don't seem out of place compared to these.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 16, 2018 17:58:10 GMT
How so? If it takes both of them years of training to reach SS2 level I think both still look competent. I mean Vegeta is not exactly incompetent for training for seven years and not reaching SS2 and SS3 the same as Goku. It is not so much he should concern himself with popularity, but more me pointing out it stands out as odd when every other major DB villain receives a power up and some of them seem far bigger than they seemed. For example King Piccolo is still as strong as 17 or 18 despite not having Nail and Kami in him and being in a universe where he would face far less challenges than the main Piccolo. U13 Vegeta becoming a SS2 on threshold of reaching SS3 when there is no incentive to push him that far after he slaughters Freeza and his family (most were surprise he was even SS2 when he first revealed it). It feels weird that Freeza and his family are still the same level yet their story is part of DBM. Freeza and Cooler had a sibling rivalry for a hundreds of years but that never compelled them to train that much. They would have to go through something major to force them to suddenly go all out in their training within the last 30 years when they barely put in any effort in the last few hundred. The other main villains were much younger in comparison. I agree about King Piccolo because I don't think he could be anywhere near #17 by only training and fusing with Kami but I'm going to wait to see what happened in U3. U13 Vegeta was under Freeza's rule most of his life and had to turn SSJ. I also agree about him turning SSJ2 so I'm going to wait to see how he obtained it in his universe. Cell and Buu were basically babies compared to the other villains. Cell was born, went back in time, and absorbed #17 and #18 to become perfect. After losing to Gohan and getting a Zenkai, it makes sense he realized he wasn't as perfect as he thought and that there was room to grow. He has no interest in taking over the universe or anything aside from becoming more perfect. Buu was created, absorbed two Kaioshin, and then sealed for five million years. Defeating the Z fighters gave him the chance to finally do something other than what he was original created for. He's similar to Cell in that he doesn't really have an interest in anything other than improving himself, acquiring more knowledge, abilities, etc. In my opinion, Freeza is most similar to Bojack. Freeza was a freak mutation and Bojack was a science experiment but neither one had any interest in self-improvement and only wanted to abuse that power to dominate the universe. Dabura might have been the same. Maybe he was born a really powerful demon and trained just enough to surpass the current king or he was already gifted with enough power to take over. When we look at all the villains in DBM, the Frost Demons don't seem out of place compared to these. That is the beauty of multiverse theory though. By its very nature there are several different universes based on different choices. There should be a few scenarios. Iron Leaf I felt did a good job in at least coming up with different events of the Frost Demons running into stronger villains in their universe and how that motivated them to train. I could see scenarios like that happening to act as the catalyst. Largely I just don’t feel Ginyu justifies Universe 8 not being eliminated from the story like the other joke universes. I do feel it is trying to both a joke and trying to be part of the larger story. Like I said before from a writing standpoint I feel U6 should have stayed for the larger Majin Revolt since those characters are stronger. Trying to turn Freeza and Cooler into bigger threats required Piccolo to get serious to dispatch them felt like a wrong play. Since this trying to adhere to a strict power scale it just feels like to me that it would be easier in the long run to buff up Freeza and Cooler a bit if they are going to be needed to fight Goku and not be one shot or hold up Piccolo. That might be just me. I can get how others are fine with it and be willing to look the other way once and a while on little things like that.
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Post by Ashanark on Apr 16, 2018 17:59:46 GMT
On an unrelated note...speaking of Future Trunks, has Salagir offered an explanation (Help me Ashanark , you're my only hope) as to why Cold didn't transform against him? I can't find anything in the Reference Thread. For what it's worth, Cold did transform in FTrunks' original timeline, requiring teamwork to take down and with Vegeta getting the final blow. For U18, I assume Salagir's explanation would be something like this: Cold assumed Trunks could only kill Frieza because of his sword, and so once he got Trunks' sword, there'd be no need for him to transform to a higher level to take care of him. It was a mix of a miscalculation on Cold's part and Trunks cheesing him. >Frost demon representation
DBM is 10 years old, and Salagir's a guy who puts more thought into continuity and reasonable plotting than most fanfic authors--and Toriyama himself. Even if Salagir wasn't directly following the pre-RoF Status Quo of "Frieza is a joke," he at least knew it existed, and knew that was what his target audience was familiar with and would expect to see in DBM. Blame Toriyama for being obsessed with superlatives, making Frieza "the strongest in the universe" and being incapable of writing new threats without making them so strong that previous sagas' baddies were jokes by comparison. Like it so often does, other DB media took a Toriyama idea and exaggerated on it, so from 1991-2014 the precedent was that not only was Frieza pathetic in-universe, he was pathetic out-of-universe as well: for some reason, after the Namek saga Frieza was very specifically treated as a loser and a wannabe to an extent that no later villain--not the Androids, not Cell, not Buu--ever was. The point is, while some DBM fans wanted the Frost Demons to be major players pre-2014 (like Roketto), I'd argue many of us didn't find a problem with--or at least were not surprised by--Frieza's portrayal in DBM. It's just that the fanbase's general perception of what's acceptable has changed in 10 years. If we jumped back to 2009 and Salagir were to make Frieza even SS2-tier, which would still not be enough to give any of the serious U18 competitors problems, I think it's safe to say many of us would've called bullcrap or at least wondered if Salagir favored them. (Just look at the fandom's reaction to DBM Broly.) Yes, Cell and Buu saw major improvement in DBM while Frieza hasn't, but I'd also argue there's a greater or at least more obvious precedent for making them stronger than with Frieza: Cell could eat people and, with Saiyan DNA, there was at least an excuse for him to train; and Buu could absorb people. In both the manga and all DB media afterward, the only precedent for making a Frost Demon stronger was Cooler's 5th form, and I'd argue the general fanbase probably would've agreed it was against Frieza's nature to train. For what it's worth, I would argue Frieza and his family have at least gotten much more focus in-comic than several villains of greater strength, such as the Androids, Babidi's crew (at least until recently), and also Bojack, notwithstanding his killing Pan. When it comes to overall universe exposure, I think only U18 and U16 beat out U8 when it comes to seeing what they're doing, thinking, and planning. Salagir, even knowing Frieza was relatively inconsequential compared to almost everyone else, still seemed to want to honor him as part of the Big Three and gave him screentime to match...even if Frieza hasn't really done much overall. Also, Salagir has put a lot of thought into the Frost Demons: his explanation of Cooler's training seems quite unique and well-thought out, especially compared to RoF's "Frieza hit Tagoma for four months and jumped 10 tiers in power." His explanation of Frost Demons growing stronger with age is creative and pretty cool. I think the whole reason he said Cold was in Form 2 was in an attempt to give the Frost Demons more exposure than they would've gotten otherwise, since Cold could then go to his 4th and then 6th forms to allow him to take on opponents which would've been far out of his league were he at his DBZ-level strength. The Frost Demons are also major players in the backstories of nearly every character in the multiverse. In a strange way, I'd argue Salagir was actually being quite fair to Frieza by 2008 standards. It's just that, by 2018 standards--and thanks to some major insanity from Toriyama--it now doesn't seem anywhere near enough. I also believe that DBM doesn't actually have a "Frieza" universe; U8 isn't the Frieza universe the way U17 is the Cell universe, U4 Buu's, U7 the Nameks and U11 Babidi's; U8 is the Ginyu universe. >What could've been changedI wouldn't necessarily give Frieza any boosts: I'd just give him more to do, so he looks better. The Nappa Prophecy of "You'll never land a hit in this tournament" is hilarious, but I agree with Axalon that allowing Frieza to show his cunning and cruelty would've been better than a running gag. Give him a first-round opponent to squash. Let him beat the snot out of his second-round opponent. Have him figure out on his own somehow that Ginyu is among U8, without Buu just randomly telling him. Most importantly of all, don't resolve the Ginyu situation off the bat. It would've been far better for both Ginyu, Frieza, and Bra's characters if Vegito had not immediately discovered the switch, no matter how unrealistic it'd be. There were many people, myself included, who would've enjoyed Frieza holding Bra-Cold as a hostage or striking a deal with Vegito. I am a firm believer that Frieza's powerup in DBS is ultimately demeaning to his character, since in effect it was the writers saying "We have absolutely no idea on how to use this person without BSing him up to relevant PLs." Salagir's at least tried to find alternatives.
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Post by Axalon on Apr 16, 2018 23:05:17 GMT
Freeza and Cooler had a sibling rivalry for a hundreds of years but that never compelled them to train that much. They would have to go through something major to force them to suddenly go all out in their training within the last 30 years when they barely put in any effort in the last few hundred. Didn't they though? Frieza turned Goku into ashes in U8 and had far less of a difficult time overall as opposed to his U18 counterpart, yet just the surprise of the Saiyans surviving TWO genocide attempts irritated him to the point that he began training so he didn't need reduction forms. Cooler had the classic motivation of being power-hungry, and 108 years before Raditz was born had already done this, though I don't believe it's revealed when he got his augmentation form. I can't find anything in the Reference Thread. For what it's worth, Cold did transform in FTrunks' original timeline, requiring teamwork to take down and with Vegeta getting the final blow. That's interesting to know actually...where was that stated? I really do find this interesting, since Cold would be roughly #16's level against at best one SS1 (Goku via IT) and a bunch of people vastly weaker than him, on top of Mecha Frieza also being there. That's kinda what I figured would be the explanation. There are a couple leaps in logic to be had though. The King Cold Thought Process:That's not a knock at all on Salagir mind you, that one's aimed at Toriyama.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 6:29:16 GMT
That is the beauty of multiverse theory though. By its very nature there are several different universes based on different choices. There should be a few scenarios. Iron Leaf I felt did a good job in at least coming up with different events of the Frost Demons running into stronger villains in their universe and how that motivated them to train. I could see scenarios like that happening to act as the catalyst. I agree you could come up with an infinite number of possible scenarios to power them up but that could be said about any character. I would have a problem with it if Salagir had ignored U8 and just said they were lazy. Instead, he offered an explanation as to why he believes training would've only given them better control or a transformation that doesn't boost them up by much until they grow older. It works and it's something I prefer over powering them up but I agree others would've liked for them to be stronger. I'm not sure how Majinization works in DBM or if it's based on how evil they are. Vegeta went from FPSSJ or low level SSJ2 to being able to match Goku's SSJ2. 5th form Cooler was around a fresh SSJ1 Goku and it powered him up to maybe around Cell Jr level. Giving them a major power-up before Majinization would mean they would slaughter the Piccolo's and Gohan would be the only contestant able to fight them. One was busy fighting Cell and the other went after Babidi because Gohan is the only one who could take on Fat Buu. That could be why they had Bojack go home because a Majin Bojack would be too powerful for anyone aside from Gohan.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Apr 17, 2018 6:46:27 GMT
That is the beauty of multiverse theory though. By its very nature there are several different universes based on different choices. There should be a few scenarios. Iron Leaf I felt did a good job in at least coming up with different events of the Frost Demons running into stronger villains in their universe and how that motivated them to train. I could see scenarios like that happening to act as the catalyst. I agree you could come up with an infinite number of possible scenarios to power them up but that could be said about any character. I would have a problem with it if Salagir had ignored U8 and just said they were lazy. Instead, he offered an explanation as to why he believes training would've only given them better control or a transformation that doesn't boost them up by much until they grow older. It works and it's something I prefer over powering them up but I agree others would've liked for them to be stronger. I'm not sure how Majinization works in DBM or if it's based on how evil they are. Vegeta went from FPSSJ or low level SSJ2 to being able to match Goku's SSJ2. 5th form Cooler was around a fresh SSJ1 Goku and it powered him up to maybe around Cell Jr level. Giving them a major power-up before Majinization would mean they would slaughter the Piccolo's and Gohan would be the only contestant able to fight them. One was busy fighting Cell and the other went after Babidi because Gohan is the only one who could take on Fat Buu. That could be why they had Bojack go home because a Majin Bojack would be too powerful for anyone aside from Gohan. Ginyu 6th form already was on Bojack level approximately. But yeah, if Freeza and Coola could cause this much trouble, imagine some Majin Bujin and Zangya with green buffed forms.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 8:34:06 GMT
Ginyu 6th form already was on Bojack level approximately. But yeah, if Freeza and Coola could cause this much trouble, imagine some Majin Bujin and Zangya with green buffed forms. When King Cold transforms, he would be too strong for everyone there aside from Gohan. It could be a team battle with two Piccolo's and West Kaioshin but I don't know if even that would be enough. Powering-up the other Frost Demons would require Salagir to rewrite these chapters so that the participants aren't teleported away but don't make quick work of the Majins for whatever reason since the remaining heroes wouldn't stand a chance. It would end up being like the ToP with the most powerful contestants standing around while the weaker characters get a chance to fight. What I liked about this battle royale is that it tries to account for all the characters and there's no one left waiting their turn in the background. All these changes would be to solely benefit the Frost Demons and have them put up more of fight than they currently have.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Apr 17, 2018 8:38:59 GMT
Ginyu 6th form already was on Bojack level approximately. But yeah, if Freeza and Coola could cause this much trouble, imagine some Majin Bujin and Zangya with green buffed forms. When King Cold transforms, he would be too strong for everyone there aside from Gohan. It could be a team battle with two Piccolo's and West Kaioshin but I don't know if even that would be enough. Powering-up the other Frost Demons would require Salagir to rewrite these chapters so that the participants aren't teleported away but don't make quick work of the Majins for whatever reason since the remaining heroes wouldn't stand a chance. It would end up being like the ToP with the most powerful contestants standing around while the weaker characters get a chance to fight. What I liked about this battle royale is that it tries to account for all the characters and there's no one left waiting their turn in the background. All these changes would be to solely benefit the Frost Demons and have them put up more of fight than they currently have. In my opinion they did remarkably well against Piccolo, specially Cooler. Cooler was about to seriously injure him if U16 Piccolo didn't intervene. However as others pointed out this was laid out in a so subjective manner that it seemed Piccolo look too weak as opposed to the Frost Demons being threatening. One could say Piccolo's attention span was so divided and reduced fighting against 1 opponent as strong as him (Majin 5th form Ginyu) in addition to two other gnats (but that still should be relevant enough, how much is the question) and this would downplay them. Without a clear indication of how much this majin stuff boosted everyone, it's hard to tell. Having the full Bojack team on the very least would mean having 2 perfect cell level dudes plus someone a bit above that, perhaps even barely scratching SSJ2. Then again, they could be easily dispatched by Heloites. Thus far 2 dangers that we thought would fare better were quickly downed. SSJ2 Kakarotto could have not been stopped by anyone but Gohan in raw power alone. Then we had the other Majin'd Helior dude. (Tidar 2). Dabura was on Perfect Cell level and only managed to do serious damage to Shin before being dispatched by the Helior girl.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 16:04:52 GMT
Conqueror GengThe Frost Demons bros were powered up a lot more than I expected. I suppose going from fresh SSJ tier to around Cell Jr tier could still be less than Majin Vegeta's boost. I agree it could make Piccolo look weak since the Majin boost hasn't been defined in DBM. I would've only powered them up to Semi-Perfect Cell to ASSJ Vegeta level at most and had Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin fight them or Piccolo takes them out and handles King Cold on his own.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 17, 2018 20:11:04 GMT
That is the beauty of multiverse theory though. By its very nature there are several different universes based on different choices. There should be a few scenarios. Iron Leaf I felt did a good job in at least coming up with different events of the Frost Demons running into stronger villains in their universe and how that motivated them to train. I could see scenarios like that happening to act as the catalyst. I agree you could come up with an infinite number of possible scenarios to power them up but that could be said about any character. I would have a problem with it if Salagir had ignored U8 and just said they were lazy. Instead, he offered an explanation as to why he believes training would've only given them better control or a transformation that doesn't boost them up by much until they grow older. It works and it's something I prefer over powering them up but I agree others would've liked for them to be stronger. I'm not sure how Majinization works in DBM or if it's based on how evil they are. Vegeta went from FPSSJ or low level SSJ2 to being able to match Goku's SSJ2. 5th form Cooler was around a fresh SSJ1 Goku and it powered him up to maybe around Cell Jr level. Giving them a major power-up before Majinization would mean they would slaughter the Piccolo's and Gohan would be the only contestant able to fight them. One was busy fighting Cell and the other went after Babidi because Gohan is the only one who could take on Fat Buu. That could be why they had Bojack go home because a Majin Bojack would be too powerful for anyone aside from Gohan. I think teamwork would have been key to this. Two Piccolos, some of the U19 warriors, and Supreme Kai would have had to made a stand just to survive. Some would die, but I could see them working well together enough to at least wound Bojack and kill him. In terms of powering Piccolo up I would reveal a new technique or have it that Piccolo learned Kaioken from Goku so he could break his limitations and fight enemies at Perfect Cell level or above.
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Post by Axalon on Apr 17, 2018 20:34:46 GMT
I agree you could come up with an infinite number of possible scenarios to power them up but that could be said about any character. I would have a problem with it if Salagir had ignored U8 and just said they were lazy. Instead, he offered an explanation as to why he believes training would've only given them better control or a transformation that doesn't boost them up by much until they grow older. It works and it's something I prefer over powering them up but I agree others would've liked for them to be stronger. I'm not sure how Majinization works in DBM or if it's based on how evil they are. Vegeta went from FPSSJ or low level SSJ2 to being able to match Goku's SSJ2. 5th form Cooler was around a fresh SSJ1 Goku and it powered him up to maybe around Cell Jr level. Giving them a major power-up before Majinization would mean they would slaughter the Piccolo's and Gohan would be the only contestant able to fight them. One was busy fighting Cell and the other went after Babidi because Gohan is the only one who could take on Fat Buu. That could be why they had Bojack go home because a Majin Bojack would be too powerful for anyone aside from Gohan. I think teamwork would have been key to this. Two Piccolos, some of the U19 warriors, and Supreme Kai would have had to made a stand just to survive. Some would die, but I could see them working well together enough to at least wound Bojack and kill him. In terms of powering Piccolo up I would reveal a new technique or have it that Piccolo learned Kaioken from Goku so he could break his limitations and fight enemies at Perfect Cell level or above. All my Yesses. Kaioken never gets enough love, and neither does Piccolo. These two are a match made in heaven.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Apr 17, 2018 22:38:04 GMT
Frieza was the catalyst that made so many universes far stronger then they should be. It makes sense that once his level is surpassed, he would dwindle towards irrelevence in every universe except in the one where he still rules. Many people still complain that Frieza didn't train when he should have after his scare by Goku in his universe- the problem is he was never defeated, in fact all he had to do to win was go to his true form and he utterly overwhelmed Goku at his maximum. That would only enforce his superiority that except for his father and possibly his brother no one in the universe was more powerful then him. The fact that he only trained to be able to stay in his 'true' form re-enforces this.
As for his current portrayal as DBM's joke, well look back at the first round- When he had to face Jeice all he had to do was raise an eyebrow at him and he forfeited. Immediately. He sure as shit might be weak compared to basically every other universe, but in his own he's basically a God that deals out death whenever the heck he wants, and literally nobody except for his own family can touch him in a fight. However anyone who's at that basic Super Saiyan tier or above can make mincemeat out of him (So, 90% of the tournament competitors).
More importantly the tourament rules also make him seem more of a joke- When Nappa made jokes at his expense the rules rendered Frieza impotent untill their match, which Nappa immediately forfeited which made Frieza impotent again since he had no way of punishing Nappa for something that would have getten him brutally killed if he'd been a part of U8. That kills any fear or intimidation Frieza may still have had since it turns this feared Galactic overlord into just another competitor.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 28, 2018 5:38:56 GMT
I was wondering what if we had two versions of Freeza in the tournament like we had multiples of other characters? One being universe 8 like universe where Freeza did destroy Goku's space pod as it left Planet Vegeta and as a result Vegeta and the others never get strong enough to overpower Freeza and he remains on top. He is the same Freeza as we saw in the main universe. He never trained, still needs the reduction forms, and is the one who is made the butt of jokes, sort of like U10 Vegeta. The other universe has a version of Freeza that somehow defeated Super Saiyan Goku on Namek and was motivated to train, which spurred the rest of his family to start training again, and that universe is the one with the competitive Frost Demons. They don't have to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but just be strong enough to compete with SS2 with their fifth forms. That way there is the best of both worlds and some more interesting fights. Of course this would probably have to change things a bit, but if they had a elimination round like the original World Martial Arts Tournaments to get into the main tournament instead of just letting everyone who wanted to fight just compete.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Apr 28, 2018 5:53:14 GMT
I was wondering what if we had two versions of Freeza in the tournament like we had multiples of other characters? One being universe 8 like universe where Freeza did destroy Goku's space pod as it left Planet Vegeta and as a result Vegeta and the others never get strong enough to overpower Freeza and he remains on top. He is the same Freeza as we saw in the main universe. He never trained, still needs the reduction forms, and is the one who is made the butt of jokes, sort of like U10 Vegeta. The other universe has a version of Freeza that somehow defeated Super Saiyan Goku on Namek and was motivated to train, which spurred the rest of his family to start training again, and that universe is the one with the competitive Frost Demons. They don't have to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but just be strong enough to compete with SS2 with their fifth forms. That way there is the best of both worlds and some more interesting fights. Of course this would probably have to change things a bit, but if they had a elimination round like the original World Martial Arts Tournaments to get into the main tournament instead of just letting everyone who wanted to fight just compete. Think this should have been fixed in U8 by making Ginyu (and also not taking "2nd Form Cold be stronger than Freeza" literally) less important, and switching the focus to Cooler and Freeza instead.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 28, 2018 6:15:10 GMT
I was wondering what if we had two versions of Freeza in the tournament like we had multiples of other characters? One being universe 8 like universe where Freeza did destroy Goku's space pod as it left Planet Vegeta and as a result Vegeta and the others never get strong enough to overpower Freeza and he remains on top. He is the same Freeza as we saw in the main universe. He never trained, still needs the reduction forms, and is the one who is made the butt of jokes, sort of like U10 Vegeta. The other universe has a version of Freeza that somehow defeated Super Saiyan Goku on Namek and was motivated to train, which spurred the rest of his family to start training again, and that universe is the one with the competitive Frost Demons. They don't have to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but just be strong enough to compete with SS2 with their fifth forms. That way there is the best of both worlds and some more interesting fights. Of course this would probably have to change things a bit, but if they had a elimination round like the original World Martial Arts Tournaments to get into the main tournament instead of just letting everyone who wanted to fight just compete. Think this should have been fixed in U8 by making Ginyu (and also not taking "2nd Form Cold be stronger than Freeza" literally) less important, and switching the focus to Cooler and Freeza instead. I can also see that working. Then Universe 8 is just a joke universe and they would have been eliminated really fast along with some of the other universes like 10 and 15. The group would likely just have left and we wouldn't feel like Freeza joke got stale or feel he is being misused compared to the other main DB villains (hell even Bojack a movie villain was used to introduce tension and danger by killing U16 Pan, which gives him more of role than Freeza in the story).
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Post by Solus on Apr 29, 2018 16:42:22 GMT
I like the portrayal of the Frost Demons in DBM. Thing is, like mentioned above, that many character's strength stems from the Frost Demons. When Freezer originally had the means to become stronger than he is, why did he fear the Supersaiyan? And if Cooler could become stronger via training, why would he not do so? Look at Cell, who has Cells of Freezer and Cold. If Freezer made a huge jump in power it would make Cell look ridiculous. Cell was written to be the ultimate being, uniting the best qualities of all his components. Now imagine Freezer becoming as strong as Cell via training alone. That would be just as bullshitty as Goku becoming stronger than Vegetto at any point.
But there is one thing, I always wanted to see for Freezer or the Frost Demons in general. Freezer showed those psychic powers that never returned in any fight. Telekinesis is such a huge advantage in any given situation (if improved properly) that it could have made the Frost Demons jump a few tiers up without actually raising their power level. There was that one scene in DBS, when Freezer fought Jiren, where he attacked him with two stones from each side. That was a good attempt, but unfortunately the only one. I know, it would be hard to test out the limits of such power storywise, but I think it would have been worth it to make Freezer great again.
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