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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 20:33:13 GMT
I mean I was referring to fan perception thing. TFS to name one notable example had Frieza ranked as the top villain on their countdown. And really the Frieza arc in general is the one held to the highest regard. Individual opinion on that aside. But irregardless doesn't change my point that Cell and Buu (Among others) get fair representation and Frieza's stock is a butt monkey. Just in poor taste. Yeah but remember last time we saw Freeza he got sliced in pieces crying in fear and then one shotted by a new character. He got worfed the fuck out. And then we see him being just the buttmonkey in the Fusion Reborn movie, and also in GT (where Cell also got the short end of the stick). IMO the Cold demon Brothers performed really well in the Majin rebellion. Piccolo should have been able to smoke them together effortlessly 5th form or not. I mean Friezaa being written poorly following the Namek Arc isn't an excuse to being written as a joke character here when Cell, Buu her favorable presentation. All Dragon Ball villains end up in pathetic states. Cell was willing to commit suicide to avoid shameful defeat. Super Buu begged Begets in his last appearance. Are they judged here by their low points? Eh, unremarkable Majin slaves in a sea of enemies isn't interesting nor is much done with them new forms and all. Just felt a stronger Frieda would have been preferred. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 20:54:20 GMT
I honestly feel this presentation of Frieza has been nothing short of disrespectful and borderline shameful. The most iconic villain in the entire Dragon Ball franchise and he exists as a butt monkey for others, something that just doesn't personally sit well with me. They could have come up with any number of justifications for why Frieza would train and get stronger like the other villains (Dealing with future threats like Majin Buu or maybe have an alternate scenario where Frieza kills Goku just after the spirit bomb and realizing that he nearly died to these people and has to correct this weakness so it never comes this close again.) But none were taken and I think it was a mistake. Welcome to the forum. Shame you don't understand the meaning of disrespectful, well more that you don't know how or where to properly apply it.
At best Freeza might reflect on the spirit bomb incident otherwise training is incredibly out of character and no amount of training or even fusions would give The Frost family a chance in hell against Cell much less Buu, regardless of his form. Khan addresses the other points I was going to bring up.
Making a character strong for the sake of it doesn't show respect and is a hamfisted way of keeping them relevant.
Salagir giving Freeza the gift of magic from Buu is a clever way of keep him relevant in the future without breaking his clearly well established character traits.
An actual mistake would be making Freeza stronger than Android 17 just to appease fans that don't know any better.
The only reason Kold even bothered to pre-transform against Gast was because he was scared and was given ample time to do so.
This idea of Freeza being the most iconic villain is mostly a DBSuper thing. Last depictions of Freeza in DBZ canon (and TOEI stuff like GT and movies) were equally if not more disrespectful. Eh, Freeza kinda is the most iconic. If you don't like that word that's fine but I'll just counter with most recognisable, therefore more marketable.
It has been this way for a very long time, especially in Japan. |
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 20:57:50 GMT
I honestly feel this presentation of Frieza has been nothing short of disrespectful and borderline shameful. The most iconic villain in the entire Dragon Ball franchise and he exists as a butt monkey for others, something that just doesn't personally sit well with me. They could have come up with any number of justifications for why Frieza would train and get stronger like the other villains (Dealing with future threats like Majin Buu or maybe have an alternate scenario where Frieza kills Goku just after the spirit bomb and realizing that he nearly died to these people and has to correct this weakness so it never comes this close again.) But none were taken and I think it was a mistake. Welcome to the forum. Shame you don't understand the meaning of disrespectful, well more that you don't know how or where to properly apply it.
At best Freeza might reflect on the spirit bomb incident otherwise training is incredibly out of character and no amount of training or even fusions would give The Frost family a chance in hell against Cell much less Buu, regardless of his form. Khan addresses the other points I was going to bring up.
Making a character strong for the sake of it doesn't show respect and is a hamfisted way of keeping them relevant.
Salagir giving Freeza the gift of magic from Buu is a clever way of keep him relevant in the future without breaking his clearly well established character traits.
An actual mistake would be making Freeza stronger than Android 17 just to appease fans that don't know any better.
The only reason Kold even bothered to pre-transform against Gast was because he was scared and was given ample time to do so.
This idea of Freeza being the most iconic villain is mostly a DBSuper thing. Last depictions of Freeza in DBZ canon (and TOEI stuff like GT and movies) were equally if not more disrespectful. Eh, Freeza kinda is the most iconic. If you don't like that word that's fine but I'll just counter with most recognisable, therefore more marketable.
It has been this way for a very long time, especially in Japan. So making him a comedic butt monkey type character is better? Just saying there are paths to him getting stronger even if they seem somewhat stretches (I mean same could be said for a couple of universe concepts we have already. Like Kakarot being able to kill all the Earthlings to name an example.) My main issue is Frieza being treated like a joke by the universe which results in his "weak" power there could have been ways out of. I just ask for a bit of respect nothing more. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 26, 2019 21:07:26 GMT
Welcome to the forum. Shame you don't understand the meaning of disrespectful, well more that you don't know how or where to properly apply it.
At best Freeza might reflect on the spirit bomb incident otherwise training is incredibly out of character and no amount of training or even fusions would give The Frost family a chance in hell against Cell much less Buu, regardless of his form. Khan addresses the other points I was going to bring up.
Making a character strong for the sake of it doesn't show respect and is a hamfisted way of keeping them relevant.
Salagir giving Freeza the gift of magic from Buu is a clever way of keep him relevant in the future without breaking his clearly well established character traits.
An actual mistake would be making Freeza stronger than Android 17 just to appease fans that don't know any better.
The only reason Kold even bothered to pre-transform against Gast was because he was scared and was given ample time to do so.
Eh, Freeza kinda is the most iconic. If you don't like that word that's fine but I'll just counter with most recognisable, therefore more marketable.
It has been this way for a very long time, especially in Japan. So making him a comedic butt monkey type character is better? Just saying there are paths to him getting stronger even if they seem somewhat stretches (I mean same could be said for a couple of universe concepts we have already. Like Kakarot being able to kill all the Earthlings to name an example.) My main issue is Frieza being treated like a joke by the universe which results in his "weak" power there could have been ways out of. I just ask for a bit of respect nothing more. A comedic buttmonkey/stepping stone was the last time he was displayed in official media before the advent of DBS. This was how Freeza was perceived before DBS, this is not something exclusive to DBM. This was not the same with Cell (only if you count GT) and Buu unlike you claimed. Cell in his last moment came in SSJ2 level, managed to kill Trunks, seriously injured Gohan and almost killed Vegeta. He was only defeated by luck. Buuhan last moments vs. Vegetto were ridiculous, but Kid Buu was taking the piss out of them all when they unfused and even managed to destroy the Earth, killing Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks. Freeza in his last moments came to get vengeance, got sliced in many pieces and got one shotted, as did his father, by a then unknown character nonetheless. |
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 21:13:44 GMT
So making him a comedic butt monkey type character is better? Just saying there are paths to him getting stronger even if they seem somewhat stretches (I mean same could be said for a couple of universe concepts we have already. Like Kakarot being able to kill all the Earthlings to name an example.) My main issue is Frieza being treated like a joke by the universe which results in his "weak" power there could have been ways out of. I just ask for a bit of respect nothing more. A comedic buttmonkey/stepping stone was the last time he was displayed in official media before the advent of DBS. This was how Freeza was perceived before DBS, this is not something exclusive to DBM. This was not the same with Cell (only if you count GT) and Buu unlike you claimed. Cell in his last moment came in SSJ2 level, managed to kill Trunks, seriously injured Gohan and almost killed Vegeta. He was only defeated by luck. Buuhan last moments vs. Vegetto were ridiculous, but Kid Buu was taking the piss out of them all when they unfused and even managed to destroy the Earth, killing Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks. Freeza in his last moments came to get vengeance, got sliced in many pieces and got one shotted, as did his father, by a then unknown character nonetheless. So basically only judge a character by their absolute final moments and nothing else? Feels a bit of a hollow view to examine characters. I was speaking general low points not their last moments. I mean if you do take filler or non-canon into account Cell's last moment was getting punked by Pikkon and treated as equally a joke with Frieza much like their later appearance in GT. Super Saiyan 2? Only reason Cell stood tall over Gohan was cause he blasted his arm and Gohan thought his energy was cut in half. Once Goku was able to inspire him to push with everything he wiped Cell off the map. Kid Buu is a different character from Super Buu who Zen Buu is modeled after. Again not asking for Frieza to say be Golden in this or something, but just a little more benefit of the doubt and slightly better treatment in regards to character rather than just shrug and go "he was a joke at one point, so we'll keep status quo" is what I ask for. It's not a lot considering the other villains get better rep, even weaker ones (Nappa who punked Frieza out to name the clear example.) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 21:15:33 GMT
So making him a comedic butt monkey type character is better? Yes.
Paths? As in multiple avenues that allow Freeza to be "respected"? Please, do share with the class.
Kakarot taking 20 years to kill the earthlings isn't much of an example but sure, I'll let you have that.
Freeza has been treated like a joke for two decades. How have you not gotten used to this yet?
WAIT!! I just thought of a way to give Freeza respect, ie: power. Make him an android like Yamcha. BRILLIANT!!!! edit:
Better treatment? Nappa used the tournament rules against Freeza purely for shits n giggles coz he knew he couldn't beat him.
Where's the respect for Nappa? Being forced to be a fool to make up for his weakness is very disrespectful indeed.
Salagir has given Freeza more than enough respect. When a 6yr child can beat him in a fight it's kinda pointless to waste any time making him more than he is.
You don't like comedic relief Freeza? That's fine, but to claim it disrespectful is asinine and disrespectful to Salagir, who has done an amazing job with Freeza.
If you feel so strongly about this then Akira Toriyama a letter or something.
edit2: Not any more hollow than to equate power level with respect anyhow.  |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 26, 2019 21:19:49 GMT
A comedic buttmonkey/stepping stone was the last time he was displayed in official media before the advent of DBS. This was how Freeza was perceived before DBS, this is not something exclusive to DBM. This was not the same with Cell (only if you count GT) and Buu unlike you claimed. Cell in his last moment came in SSJ2 level, managed to kill Trunks, seriously injured Gohan and almost killed Vegeta. He was only defeated by luck. Buuhan last moments vs. Vegetto were ridiculous, but Kid Buu was taking the piss out of them all when they unfused and even managed to destroy the Earth, killing Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks. Freeza in his last moments came to get vengeance, got sliced in many pieces and got one shotted, as did his father, by a then unknown character nonetheless. I mean if you do take filler or non-canon into account Cell's last moment was getting punked by Pikkon and treated as equally a joke with Frieza much like their later appearance in GT. Super Saiyan 2? Only reason Cell stood tall over Gohan was cause he blasted his arm and Gohan thought his energy was cut in half. Once Goku was able to inspire him to push with everything he wiped Cell off the map. Kid Buu is a different character from Super Buu who Zen Buu is modeled after. Again not asking for Frieza to say be Golden in this or something, but just a little more benefit of the doubt and slightly better treatment in regards to character rather than just shrug and go "he was a joke at one point, so we'll keep status quo" is what I ask for. It's not a lot considering the other villains get better rep, even weaker ones (Nappa who punked Frieza out to name the clear example.) Not any more hollow than to equate power level with respect anyhow. Broly for example has the highest power level and save for the exception in U3, he's mostly either dead, a passive bitch, or a disposable punching bag. Lots of other villains were treated as jokes too, perhaps even worse than Freeza. Bojack and Dabura for example. Freeza at least managed to control his 4th form in idle moments and even unlocked a 5th form. He also killed Goku in his universe. And in this case, counting filler is not necessary. What cemented Freeza as a joke was not filler but what Trunks did to him and his father. He basically gave the message they weren't shit compared to the Androids who didn't even end up being the main threat in the next saga. |
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 21:22:48 GMT
So making him a comedic butt monkey type character is better? Yes.
Paths? As in multiple avenues that allow Freeza to be "respected"? Please, do share with the class.
Kakarot taking 20 years to kill the earthlings isn't much of an example but sure, I'll let you have that.
Freeza has been treated like a joke for two decades. How have you not gotten used to this yet? WAIT!! I just thought of a way to give Freeza respect, ie: power. Make him an android like Yamcha. BRILLIANT!!!!
Okay, but for the record class presentation has never been my strong suit. So don't expect a gold star stuff XD Like I said, could do the situation where he survives the Spirit Bomb from Goku then kills him, and realizes that he needs to shape up in order to quell any other threats from unknown areas given Goku and company he only discovered that day. What if other Saiyans are out there? What if they could rise to that same level? Such paranoia fueled Frieza's actions to destroy Vegeta so why not inspire him to train a bit more to get stronger. Especially given he knows his kind has at least another form it can reach. Also, he would inevitably have to deal with future threats such as Babidi & Dabura or even worse if need be Majin Buu. In this path it could simply be a means of getting the strength to overcome such threats to keep order on his empire. Maybe just a means to deal with his brother and his own transformation and play into a power struggle between the siblings where they end up pushing each other in order to try and seize power. Could also go a route where Frieza encounters the Kanassans himself and he gets a taste of the future vision seeing his destined fall at the hands of the Saiyan along with those aforementioned future threats from Earth and adds to his paranoia fuel; destroying the Earth and working to gain strength to never be challenged. This one is pure fanfic stuff but my point was there are paths to explain why Frieza could have improved in some regards so he isn't a pure butt monkey. I have no commentary on Android Yamcha. I felt that was stupid, and he didn't even beat 18 in his fight so I fail to see what was the point of it was. |
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 21:25:20 GMT
So basically only judge a character by their absolute final moments and nothing else? Feels a bit of a hollow view to examine characters. I was speaking general low points not their last moments.I mean if you do take filler or non-canon into account Cell's last moment was getting punked by Pikkon and treated as equally a joke with Frieza much like their later appearance in GT. Super Saiyan 2? Only reason Cell stood tall over Gohan was cause he blasted his arm and Gohan thought his energy was cut in half. Once Goku was able to inspire him to push with everything he wiped Cell off the map. Kid Buu is a different character from Super Buu who Zen Buu is modeled after. Again not asking for Frieza to say be Golden in this or something, but just a little more benefit of the doubt and slightly better treatment in regards to character rather than just shrug and go "he was a joke at one point, so we'll keep status quo" is what I ask for. It's not a lot considering the other villains get better rep, even weaker ones (Nappa who punked Frieza out to name the clear example.) Not any more hollow than to equate power level with respect anyhow. Broly for example has the highest power level and save for the exception in U3, he's mostly either dead, a passive bitch, or a disposable punching bag. Lots of other villains were treated as jokes too, perhaps even worse than Freeza. Bojack and Dabura for example. Freeza at least managed to control his 4th form in idle moments and even unlocked a 5th form. He also killed Goku in his universe. And in this case, counting filler is not necessary. What cemented Freeza as a joke was not filler but what Trunks did to him and his father. He basically gave the message they weren't shit compared to the Androids who didn't even end up not being the main threat in the next saga. Dabura got a real fight with Cell if nothing else that was a bit of fun to watch. More so than anything Frieza/Cooler have to show for their efforts to this point. And if even a weakling like Nappa can get a moment where he punks out a stronger foe the same could have been offered to Frieza. Bojack I have no comments on. I felt Universe 6 in general was a waste, he at least killed Pan which is something. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 21:28:46 GMT
Okay, but for the record class presentation has never been my strong suit. So don't expect a gold star stuff XD Like I said, could do the situation where he survives the Spirit Bomb from Goku then kills him, and realizes that he needs to shape up in order to quell any other threats from unknown areas given Goku and company he only discovered that day. What if other Saiyans are out there? What if they could rise to that same level? Such paranoia fueled Frieza's actions to destroy Vegeta so why not inspire him to train a bit more to get stronger. Especially given he knows his kind has at least another form it can reach. Also, he would inevitably have to deal with future threats such as Babidi & Dabura or even worse if need be Majin Buu. In this path it could simply be a means of getting the strength to overcome such threats to keep order on his empire. Maybe just a means to deal with his brother and his own transformation and play into a power struggle between the siblings where they end up pushing each other in order to try and seize power. Could also go a route where Frieza encounters the Kanassans himself and he gets a taste of the future vision seeing his destined fall at the hands of the Saiyan along with those aforementioned future threats from Earth and adds to his paranoia fuel; destroying the Earth and working to gain strength to never be challenged. This one is pure fanfic stuff but my point was there are paths to explain why Frieza could have improved in some regards so he isn't a pure butt monkey. I have no commentary on Android Yamcha. I felt that was stupid, and he didn't even beat 18 in his fight so I fail to see what was the point of it was. So basically you want Freeza to train so much that he is capable of not only beating Babadi & Dabura, but Buu? Hmm, not feeling it tbh.
To me it's almost like a new character but unlike the comedic relife version, this one aggravates me because it doesn't make sense.
Put it this way, if someone were to make such a story it would have to be extremely well written and to my knowledge, no such story exists.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 21:32:22 GMT
Okay, but for the record class presentation has never been my strong suit. So don't expect a gold star stuff XD Like I said, could do the situation where he survives the Spirit Bomb from Goku then kills him, and realizes that he needs to shape up in order to quell any other threats from unknown areas given Goku and company he only discovered that day. What if other Saiyans are out there? What if they could rise to that same level? Such paranoia fueled Frieza's actions to destroy Vegeta so why not inspire him to train a bit more to get stronger. Especially given he knows his kind has at least another form it can reach. Also, he would inevitably have to deal with future threats such as Babidi & Dabura or even worse if need be Majin Buu. In this path it could simply be a means of getting the strength to overcome such threats to keep order on his empire. Maybe just a means to deal with his brother and his own transformation and play into a power struggle between the siblings where they end up pushing each other in order to try and seize power. Could also go a route where Frieza encounters the Kanassans himself and he gets a taste of the future vision seeing his destined fall at the hands of the Saiyan along with those aforementioned future threats from Earth and adds to his paranoia fuel; destroying the Earth and working to gain strength to never be challenged. This one is pure fanfic stuff but my point was there are paths to explain why Frieza could have improved in some regards so he isn't a pure butt monkey. I have no commentary on Android Yamcha. I felt that was stupid, and he didn't even beat 18 in his fight so I fail to see what was the point of it was. So basically you want Freeza to train so much that he is capable of not only beating Babadi & Dabura, but Buu? Hmm, not feeling it tbh.
To me it's almost like a new character but unlike the comedic relife version, this one aggravates me because it doesn't make sense.
Put it this way, if someone were to make such a story it would have to be extremely well written and to my knowledge, no such story exists.
I mean I would feel any of these universes where "villain x wins" and so would have to account for Dabura & Babidi and Buu. More so logistics as far as wide scale threats as how would the Frieza Family be able to claim the universe as there own with Dabura around? I mean, Dragon Ball even within the main manga canon always had questionable power increases. The Zenkai was literally a forced ability just to scale up the cast. So it's probably not the most cleanly written but does fit with the general idea of Dragon Ball. *Shrugs* |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 26, 2019 21:32:47 GMT
Not any more hollow than to equate power level with respect anyhow. Broly for example has the highest power level and save for the exception in U3, he's mostly either dead, a passive bitch, or a disposable punching bag. Lots of other villains were treated as jokes too, perhaps even worse than Freeza. Bojack and Dabura for example. Freeza at least managed to control his 4th form in idle moments and even unlocked a 5th form. He also killed Goku in his universe. And in this case, counting filler is not necessary. What cemented Freeza as a joke was not filler but what Trunks did to him and his father. He basically gave the message they weren't shit compared to the Androids who didn't even end up not being the main threat in the next saga. Dabura got a real fight with Cell if nothing else that was a bit of fun to watch. More so than anything Frieza/Cooler have to show for their efforts to this point. And if even a weakling like Nappa can get a moment where he punks out a stronger foe the same could have been offered to Frieza. Bojack I have no comments on. I felt Universe 6 in general was a waste, he at least killed Pan which is something. Until we noticed Cell was only fighting at 5% of his power or so. Majin Cooler almost smoked Piccolo. He would have totally smashed him if the other Piccolo didn't intervene. Nappa is mostly irrelevant. You can see he punked Freeza but at the same time he didn't even attempt to fight him. Even Raditz would have done so. SSJ3 Vegeta also got smoked by Raichi, a rather minor, unknown character. It is not so black and white. Also, Cold is A16 level at his 4th form. And Perfect Cell level at his 6th. Regardless if it's Ginyu, it's still a decent amount of power which he would have never gotten 100% by himself. |
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 21:36:03 GMT
Dabura got a real fight with Cell if nothing else that was a bit of fun to watch. More so than anything Frieza/Cooler have to show for their efforts to this point. And if even a weakling like Nappa can get a moment where he punks out a stronger foe the same could have been offered to Frieza. Bojack I have no comments on. I felt Universe 6 in general was a waste, he at least killed Pan which is something. Until we noticed Cell was only fighting at 5% of his power or so. Majin Cooler almost smoked Piccolo. He would have totally smashed him if the other Piccolo didn't intervene. Nappa is mostly irrelevant. You can see he punked Freeza but at the same time he didn't even attempt to fight him. Even Raditz would have done so. SSJ3 Vegeta also got smoked by Raichi, a rather minor, unknown character. It is not so black and white. Edit, man I knew I'd mess up the quote thing sooner or later XD Was this ever mentioned? It's inconsistent as hell that Pikkon went from stomping Cell to losing to Goku but to my memory it was never said Cell was holding back when it happened. The story frames it as a win for Nappa, with Frieza looking like a fool and Nappa getting the last word in. Whether it is considered such by one reading it is up to personal interpretation. Raditz fighting and losing to Frieza is just another loss for Raditz, but Nappa got a symbolic win over Frieza. Dr. Raichi has an army of the undead at his disposal. He also would have beaten Gast Carcolh had it not been for Raichi being a moron and not having his ghosts on guard so it's an incomplete statement to leave it just at that. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 26, 2019 21:43:38 GMT
Until we noticed Cell was only fighting at 5% of his power or so. Majin Cooler almost smoked Piccolo. He would have totally smashed him if the other Piccolo didn't intervene. Nappa is mostly irrelevant. You can see he punked Freeza but at the same time he didn't even attempt to fight him. Even Raditz would have done so. SSJ3 Vegeta also got smoked by Raichi, a rather minor, unknown character. It is not so black and white. Edit, man I knew I'd mess up the quote thing sooner or later XD
Was this ever mentioned? It's inconsistent as hell that Pikkon went from stomping Cell to losing to Goku but to my memory it was never said Cell was holding back when it happened.
The story frames it as a win for Nappa, with Frieza looking like a fool and Nappa getting the last word in. Whether it is considered such by one reading it is up to personal interpretation. Raditz fighting and losing to Frieza is just another loss for Raditz, but Nappa got a symbolic win over Frieza. Dr. Raichi has an army of the undead at his disposal. He also would have beaten Gast Carcolh had it not been for Raichi being a moron and not having his ghosts on guard so it's an incomplete statement to leave it just at that. This was truly filler tho. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 21:45:00 GMT
I mean I would feel any of these universes where "villain x wins" and so would have to account for Dabura & Babidi and Buu. More so logistics as far as wide scale threats as how would the Frieza Family be able to claim the universe as there own with Dabura around? I mean, Dragon Ball even within the main manga canon always had questionable power increases. The Zenkai was literally a forced ability just to scale up the cast. So it's probably not the most cleanly written but does fit with the general idea of Dragon Ball. *Shrugs* Well the point of new villains is to have them be stronger than the ones before them. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have Freeza be stronger than Cell.
This is why most people here dislike DBS, it made no sense.
Zenkai's, while hype as fuck when we were younger, are legit retarded and laziness in its purest form BUT they were limited to Saiyans ie: the main cast, for a reason. Which is to see the heroes be constantly beaten down by the big bad and to then dish out some epic comeuppance (read: hypuuuu) regardless of logic. Oh and HYPUUUUU is the main reason why people here do like DBS.
Either way I again welcome you to the forum and hope to see you in some other topics.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 21:48:07 GMT
I mean I would feel any of these universes where "villain x wins" and so would have to account for Dabura & Babidi and Buu. More so logistics as far as wide scale threats as how would the Frieza Family be able to claim the universe as there own with Dabura around? I mean, Dragon Ball even within the main manga canon always had questionable power increases. The Zenkai was literally a forced ability just to scale up the cast. So it's probably not the most cleanly written but does fit with the general idea of Dragon Ball. *Shrugs* Well the point of new villains is to have them be stronger than the ones before them. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to have Freeza be stronger than Cell.
This is why most people here dislike DBS, it made no sense.
Zenkai's, while hype as fuck when we were younger, are legit retarded and laziness in its purest form BUT they were limited to Saiyans ie: the main cast, for a reason. Which is to see the heroes be constantly beaten down by the big bad and to then dish out some epic comeuppance (read: hypuuuu) regardless of logic. Oh and HYPUUUUU is the main reason why people here do like DBS.
Either way I again welcome you to the forum and hope to see you in some other topics.
Thanks man, in spite of my differences with you and others on the Frieza topic here I do hope that further well meaning discussion can be had and hope I don't become a bother to people on here. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 20:18:36 GMT
I honestly feel this presentation of Frieza has been nothing short of disrespectful and borderline shameful. The most iconic villain in the entire Dragon Ball franchise and he exists as a butt monkey for others, something that just doesn't personally sit well with me. They could have come up with any number of justifications for why Frieza would train and get stronger like the other villains (Dealing with future threats like Majin Buu or maybe have an alternate scenario where Frieza kills Goku just after the spirit bomb and realizing that he nearly died to these people and has to correct this weakness so it never comes this close again.) But none were taken and I think it was a mistake. First off, welcome to the forum  ! I agree Freeza is one of the most iconic villain if not the most iconic in Dragonball but I would argue they've received more respect in DBM than in most other fan comics. The Frost Demons have more contribution to DBM's history and they influenced some of the movie events. Freeza's conquering Planet Vegeta is what leads to Goku being sent to Earth and hitting his head. Without Freeza's involvement, the Saiyans remain primitive savages and Goku dies a weak low class like in U10. This is different than "canon" that implies they migrated from their original home planet on their own and conquered Yardrat. Regardless their power, it's important to remember DBM was written long before DBS. At that time, the only official power-up for a trained Frost Demon was Cooler's 5th form which was barely as strong as Namek saga SSJ Goku. Toriyama designed that transformation for the movie but that was last time he did anything with their race until deciding to bring back Freeza over 20 years later due to his popularity. DBM is one of the most well known fan comics so many fans don't read others and realize DBM treats them better. In a lot of fan work, the base Saiyans could one-shot Freeza's entire family by the Buu saga while the normal Saiyans still need to transform to defeat Namek saga Freeza in DBM. The idea of Freeza training and reaching SSJ2 or SSJ3 tier on this own was almost non-existent in fanfiction. The only times I've seen a Frost Demon getting a huge power-up in fan work was Young Jiji's AF that had Freeza's son remain in some incubator for decades. In DBM, the manga villains were given power-ups based on what was already established they could achieve. King Piccolo fused with Kami, U13 Vegeta SSJ transformations already obtained by U18 Vegeta, Cell had Saiyan DNA so he trained to reach SSJ3 tier, and U4 Buu went on to absorb more people than Buuhan. Even though Cooler's form was the only power-up they had at the time, Salagir had to work with but still made King Cold much stronger and gave their race the potential for another form that boosted their power more Cooler's 5th form. The author can't please everyone but I feel more pre-DBS fans would be against it and are fine with Freeza's current power than those who want him getting a huge power-up and possibly rearranging the brackets to give them better fights. Making them much stronger still means they lose to the same contestants unless the brackets are rearranged to change who they fight specifically. |
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Post by Solus on Nov 11, 2019 10:33:47 GMT
You'll never be a bother to anyone here as long as you keep behaving like this. We all like our opinions to be challenged, that's what we come here for.
Also there is another point why it is absolutely not in character for Freezer to train: Situation 1: We only take manga as canon, so there is no Cooler. Freezer never had anyone to compete with him. Although Cold is stronger than him, there was no need to fight him since he was the only heir and would inherit everything from Cold anyway. The Legend of the Supersayajin who would beat him eventually led him not to train but to eradicade all Sayajin. So we see, training is not Freezer's way of handling things. The next scenario shows this even better.
Situation 2: If we consider Cooler as Canon as he is in DBM, then there already was a threat to Freezer and he still did not train. As we know Cooler made no secret out of the fact that he despised Freezer. So what would keep Cooler from attacking Freezer if not Cold? Even if you take it as Freezer being stronger in his original form than Cooler in his original form, you still have a problem: If Freezer was even able to get stronger via training, what would stop Cooler from training to surpass him? Why would Freezer believe to be save if there is a brother out there, that wants to murder him? Freezer was never shown to be utterly stupid. He must have taken meassures to prevent that from happening. You think, being around their father all the time would have been his only shelter from Cooler, if there actually was another way for him to become stronger?
Tl,dr: Freezer neither has the means nor the motivation to become much stronger than he was on Namek. Otherwise he would have acted differently.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 4, 2020 20:41:55 GMT
What are people’s opinion for Freeza after Babidi’s rebellion? I honestly thinks he and his family should leave. They don’t add anything to the story anymore and I think the joke has sufficiently been beaten into the ground at this point. Do people feel Freeza and his family need to stay in the comic until it ends?
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Post by SuperVegeta on Apr 5, 2020 17:12:06 GMT
What are people’s opinion for Freeza after Babidi’s rebellion? I honestly thinks he and his family should leave. They don’t add anything to the story anymore and I think the joke has sufficiently been beaten into the ground at this point. Do people feel Freeza and his family need to stay in the comic until it ends? I mean, we COULD get a very short follow up to what happened during the whole ginyu debacle. With Frieza and Cooler trying to figure out how to get rid of their imposter "Father" OR they could try to get U16 disqualified for entering their ship and attacking them. That would be nice, seeing a weaker universe like U8 using the rules and regulations to get back at a stronger universe like U16. |
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