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Post by Son Pan on Oct 18, 2018 5:12:39 GMT
>Bringing Cell back
I can't really add anything that Skar and Son Pan haven't already said better. Cell represents a threat to the status quo of Goku Must Never Be Upstaged, which is why he won't be brought back unless Toeiyama very awkwardly makes him forget Gohan killed him. With that said, a return of Cell could provide a decent character arc for Gohan: it was Cell who forced Gohan to be a hero; Gohan slacked off since then and was unable to stop Buu, Beerus, or Frieza, or even make a meaningful difference in the ToP. So if Cell returned and, say, kidnapped Videl and Pan and gave Gohan an ultimatum of "I'll give you three days to train before I kill them," it could bring everything full circle. Since Gohan didn't learn his lesson the first five times, he now gets a very effective reminder of why he needs to put away the scholar and embrace the awesome Future Gohan waiting to be discovered inside of him. Which is what he always should have done, Toriyama Ah, we can always dream. That is not the problem though. Gohan wanting to be a scholar is just an excuse Toriyama uses to have Gohan stop training because he doesn't think Gohan should be the main character. At one point I think he liked the idea, but changed his mind. I have no idea if it is because he saw how fans preferred Goku to stay the lead when he tried to make Gohan the lead after Cell, or if he just felt like the story should stay on Goku since he started it all, but whatever the reason Gohan will stop training because Toriyama wants him to stay in the background. Gohan can still train and be a scholar. Even Toriyama finally had to admit that when he wrote the outline of Tournament of Power where Gohan went back to training and still want to be a scholar.
Dragon Ball just stuck in a cycle because it refuses to evolve anymore. Gohan is never going to be a fighter who fights for pure enjoyment like Goku, but instead of embracing that fact Toriyama uses it against him. Really after Majin Buu the natural progression for Gohan is to be the scholar, husband, and father he wants to be, but also be the man who would train not out of enjoyment, but just in case another threat comes along, so he can protect his loved ones. What the Tournament of Power tried to do was paint how Gohan is the hero that Toriyama feels Goku isn't. He is the responsible one, and making him the leader of the team represents that. It is a good angle to explore the character. Gohan doesn't need to spend all his free time training like Goku does, hell even Toriyama had Vegeta stop doing that and realize it won't instantly make Vegeta super weak by doing other things in his life.
Broly movie could have taken a page from the original movie and had more fighters than Goku and Vegeta do things. Piccolo, 17, Gohan, Krillin, and 18 could have helped out too. Broly destroying everyone again would have been something fans loved to see. Broly being super duper special is an excuse to beat everyone. We could have had Gohan who is a scholar and kept up with his training in this movie, but it is just not enough which keeps Gohan from being the star, but allows him to keep his growth as a character. It is the same way as how Vegeta can stay a family man and be warmer without regressing back to Cell arc Vegeta who treats everyone like shit. Gohan doesn't have to be Future Gohan who gives up all scholarly pursuits and just spends all his life training like his dad. Future Gohan only did that because he had too. The main Gohan should be able to do both fighting and education.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 22:11:47 GMT
New stuff from Herms: "Blue-haired blue-eyed SSJ Blue clad in a pale blue aura". In case there was any confusion what color it was going to be. Also, SSJB still has a stamina problem and can't be maintained for long. I thought they may have mastered it by now so Gogeta could last a little longer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 23:11:28 GMT
lol, super rumour. Dat japenese cringe, err, I mean hypuuu!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2018 18:14:05 GMT
It's funny that Nappa is the only character that hasn't been redesigned from the original Bardock special. His design was so iconic that Toriyama wouldn't dare change it!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 0:45:56 GMT
Something cool I remembered from this old interview: What about the concept of the Potara?That was simply, since Fusion was a plot point that was already taken by one of the movies, I was wondering what I should do; I had always been drawing earrings [on Kaiōshin], so I thought, “perhaps I can use these”…Had you drawn them from the beginning, thinking that you’d use them as a fusion item?No, not at all. They were just for decoration.It seems that Toriyama was planning on having Gogeta appear in the manga but Fusion Reborn beat him to it so he decided to come up with an entirely new fusion for Goku and Vegeta. Maybe that also influenced his decision to have the fusions fail against Buu since he may have felt having them win would've been too similar to the movie's ending? I thought it was interesting that he's now more willing to borrow ideas from Toei and have Gogeta appear in this movie when he avoided reusing him in the manga before. Now we'll see if Toriyama will let a fusion character win this time. I do think Broly might end up being too strong so maybe he'll calm down on his own and spare them.
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 6, 2018 2:40:03 GMT
Personally I think it is a fantastic idea for Gogeta to defeat Broly. Unlike Vegito, it will maintain his "no nonsense" persona in Fusion Reborn by actually killing his nemesis. Most fans, including myself, prefer this characterization over GT (though I am one of the few fans who likes that persona too). And ever since the legendary Budokai 3 opening, these two have been pit against each other in multiple fandoms, surmounting these two as destined foes. Plus seeing either Big Bang Kamehameha X100 or Stardust Breaker in canon will be sweet to see. If U16 Vegito ever sees this movie, I guarantee you he will use Porunga to challenge this superior fusion to the death. And we all know how that will turn out.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 6:55:49 GMT
No nonsense attitude huh Xeno Black? 10 bucks says THAT'S the first thing to go out the window. Extra powerful fusion should mean Gogeta is around for a minute or two yea? Well thanks to their God ki training and UI and [insert w/e the fuck bs thingy they think of for the movie] they can almost use the form rong time and you know what that means yea? That's right ladies n gents, overpowered shenanigans that will shake the very fabric of the universe AND our stomach lining coz it's so funny and infuriating Broly because it isn't funny. I can't wait. I am putting as little expectation into this movie as possible coz it's the only way I can prevent myself from kickin a puppy and/or drowning a sack of kittens after watching it. Psst! Hey! Hey Xeno Black! Potara is the number 1 unbeatable fusion. Psst hey, DB Super doesn't count.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 16:23:33 GMT
Xeno BlackBudokai started this trend of Goku and Vegeta needing to fuse against Broly or someone based on Broly and it only has gotten crazier each time! Budokai 3: SSJ1 Gogeta vs Broly DBM: SSJ3 Vegetto vs Broly New Age: SSJ4 Gogeta vs Rigor, a legendary Saiyan inspired by Broly. Heroes: SSJB/Kaioken and then SSJ4 Vegetto vs Kanba, an ancient Saiyan. DBS: SSJB or possibly UI Gogeta vs the Legendary-est version of Broly. The final showdown... Goku and Vegeta use multi-form then two of them fuse into Vegetto and the other two fuse into Gogeta then they fuse together to form Gogetto then they transform into SSJRainbow, the final recolored transformation, to fight Legendary Instinct Broly for a battle that threatens all the multiverse and every timeline and lasts 0.1 seconds!!! Edit: I forgot one more although this fusion doesn't include Vegeta. In the DBZ: The Real 4-D at Super Tenkaichi Budokai, Goku fuses with the audience to form God Fusion Goku and defeat Broly God!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2018 19:59:54 GMT
Ya know @skar, as ridiculously offensive as your post is, I do actually prefer the need of combined op warriors to take on the Legendary Saiyan over "hey share me your depleted power so I can punch his stomach". Not very legendary if he can be taken out so easily.
Huh, a cam copy of that 4-D show was released on kissanime yesterday. Is it worth checkin out?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 1:57:45 GMT
@invaderjim I do think fusion makes more sense. In the first Broly movie, everyone was out of energy but it looks like they wrote themselves into a corner and that was all they could think of at the time. After fusion was introduced, it became the default option against every legendary Saiyan . I'm wondering if Toriyama will have Gogeta win or have him defuse and they win some other way. In some of the previous sagas, Heroes spoiled the ending like showing Goku and Freeza being the last two to fight Jiren. The Prison Planet saga has Goku using UI after their fusion fails but I'm not sure if that would be enough against this Broly since his power rises faster than every other version of Broly we've seen before. It might be a boring ending but I kinda hope he's so strong that they lose and have to try to calm him down rather than kill him.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 7, 2018 3:14:03 GMT
@invaderjim I do think fusion makes more sense. In the first Broly movie, everyone was out of energy but it looks like they wrote themselves into a corner and that was all they could think of at the time. After fusion was introduced, it became the default option against every legendary Saiyan . I'm wondering if Toriyama will have Gogeta win or have him defuse and they win some other way. In some of the previous sagas, Heroes spoiled the ending like showing Goku and Freeza being the last two to fight Jiren. The Prison Planet saga has Goku using UI after their fusion fails but I'm not sure if that would be enough against this Broly since his power rises faster than every other version of Broly we've seen before. It might be a boring ending but I kinda hope he's so strong that they lose and have to try to calm him down rather than kill him. Problem is this may feel too much like a repetition of BoG. BoG was unique in this regard.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 7, 2018 4:03:39 GMT
I prefer Gogeta just win rather have another fusion failed though. It would be like when Spirit Bomb finally got to work and kill Majin Buu. Sure it would have been cool to see Gohan or Gotenks defeated Buu or Vegeta’s sacrifice to have worked, but it was awesome just to see the Spirit Bomb that was discarded as useless since it didn’t even work on Freeza finally come out on top and worked on the then strongest enemy they had faced in Majin Buu. It would be cool to have Vegeta and Goku use fusion and have Gogeta defeat Broly and use their time wisely.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 4:14:53 GMT
@invaderjim I do think fusion makes more sense. In the first Broly movie, everyone was out of energy but it looks like they wrote themselves into a corner and that was all they could think of at the time. After fusion was introduced, it became the default option against every legendary Saiyan :P. I'm wondering if Toriyama will have Gogeta win or have him defuse and they win some other way. In some of the previous sagas, Heroes spoiled the ending like showing Goku and Freeza being the last two to fight Jiren. The Prison Planet saga has Goku using UI after their fusion fails but I'm not sure if that would be enough against this Broly since his power rises faster than every other version of Broly we've seen before. It might be a boring ending but I kinda hope he's so strong that they lose and have to try to calm him down rather than kill him. Again, this would take away from him being Legendary and just make him some wank with a wowtastic transformation.
Don't let Kale influence such blasphemy, Broly is a beast that MUST be put down.
I prefer Gogeta just win rather have another fusion failed though. It would be like when Spirit Bomb finally got to work and kill Majin Buu. Sure it would have been cool to see Gohan or Gotenks defeated Buu or Vegeta’s sacrifice to have worked, but it was awesome just to see the Spirit Bomb that was discarded as useless since it didn’t even work on Freeza finally come out on top and worked on the then strongest enemy they had faced in Majin Buu. It would be cool to have Vegeta and Goku use fusion and have Gogeta defeat Broly and use their time wisely. How much "movie" time should be allotted to their battle? I don't think the nuFanz would appreciate a Gogeta to blow his wad and instantly oneshot Broly and I think TOEIyama knows that. I can see at least 8-12 mins of them wailing on each other before Gogeta ends it.
Personally I prefer the instant oneshot, if only out of spite for the nuFanz. Yea nah, it's better that way. They can fuck around with Gogeta in the second series of DBS.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 7, 2018 4:28:53 GMT
@jim
This is Broly so I imagine it may be as long or longer than Beerus and Goku final battle. That was 5-8 minutes? Gogeta and Broly final battle being that long and grand would probably be something Toei would do, since it makes a big spectacle. I wouldn’t mind for another instant win in vain of Bojack movie or Fusion Reborn movie that debuted Gogeta.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 4:38:58 GMT
@jim This is Broly so I imagine it may be as long or longer than Beerus and Goku final battle. That was 5-8 minutes? Gogeta and Broly final battle being that long and grand would probably be something Toei would do, since it makes a big spectacle. I wouldn’t mind for another instant win in vain of Bojack movie or Fusion Reborn movie that debuted Gogeta. It shits me to tears how you intentionally mis-tag me, Son Pan......
Anyhoo, I suppose it depends on the overall runtime of the movie but I'd be surprised if it isn't a OHKO from Gogeta or their battle is under 8 mins.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 14:24:27 GMT
I prefer Gogeta just win rather have another fusion failed though. It would be like when Spirit Bomb finally got to work and kill Majin Buu. Sure it would have been cool to see Gohan or Gotenks defeated Buu or Vegeta’s sacrifice to have worked, but it was awesome just to see the Spirit Bomb that was discarded as useless since it didn’t even work on Freeza finally come out on top and worked on the then strongest enemy they had faced in Majin Buu. It would be cool to have Vegeta and Goku use fusion and have Gogeta defeat Broly and use their time wisely. The Buu saga was the first time the Spirit Bomb worked in the manga but Gogeta is being taken from Fusion Reborn which was the only time a fusion ever won. I'm not sure if Toriyama would want to include that part of Gogeta. So far only SSJB Gogeta has been leaked which might not be enough against Broly at his full power unless they're able to pull out a UI Gogeta. Again, this would take away from him being Legendary and just make him some wank with a wowtastic transformation. He would still be pretty legendary if they can't outpower him and have to defeat him some other way. Toriyama said there a new side to his character so I'm assuming he won't have the same end as the original Broly.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 7, 2018 19:34:55 GMT
I prefer Gogeta just win rather have another fusion failed though. It would be like when Spirit Bomb finally got to work and kill Majin Buu. Sure it would have been cool to see Gohan or Gotenks defeated Buu or Vegeta’s sacrifice to have worked, but it was awesome just to see the Spirit Bomb that was discarded as useless since it didn’t even work on Freeza finally come out on top and worked on the then strongest enemy they had faced in Majin Buu. It would be cool to have Vegeta and Goku use fusion and have Gogeta defeat Broly and use their time wisely. The Buu saga was the first time the Spirit Bomb worked in the manga but Gogeta is being taken from Fusion Reborn which was the only time a fusion ever won. I'm not sure if Toriyama would want to include that part of Gogeta. So far only SSJB Gogeta has been leaked which might not be enough against Broly at his full power unless they're able to pull out a UI Gogeta. Again, this would take away from him being Legendary and just make him some wank with a wowtastic transformation. He would still be pretty legendary if they can't outpower him and have to defeat him some other way. Toriyama said there a new side to his character so I'm assuming he won't have the same end as the original Broly. I think he may still have Gogeta win. He has had fusion fail every other time that he may still choose to have it work this time even if Toei did it first with Fusion Reborn. The difference could be instead of a quick kill is we see a big battle where Gogeta just barely beats Broly before time runs out, which is different from Fusion Reborn and the two situations where we had Vegetto (Goku and Vegeta fusion is so OP that the villain gets overpowered and easily subdued). I say we cross the UI bridge when we get there. They may get by with Gogeta in SSGSS. They may just defeat Broly and leave him alive, which would also be something different from the old movies and leaves Broly open to be used again. If his enemies instead of trying to kill him and failing which leads to another sequel we could get a Broly who is confused by the act of mercy than leave to figure stuff out. There is a lot they can do here that is different from the old movies yet still have Gogeta win the fight.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 20:30:18 GMT
I think he may still have Gogeta win. He has had fusion fail every other time that he may still choose to have it work this time even if Toei did it first with Fusion Reborn. The difference could be instead of a quick kill is we see a big battle where Gogeta just barely beats Broly before time runs out, which is different from Fusion Reborn and the two situations where we had Vegetto (Goku and Vegeta fusion is so OP that the villain gets overpowered and easily subdued). I say we cross the UI bridge when we get there. They may get by with Gogeta in SSGSS. They may just defeat Broly and leave him alive, which would also be something different from the old movies and leaves Broly open to be used again. If his enemies instead of trying to kill him and failing which leads to another sequel we could get a Broly who is confused by the act of mercy than leave to figure stuff out. There is a lot they can do here that is different from the old movies yet still have Gogeta win the fight. Broly's supposed to be stronger than a GoD at full power so I'm not sure if a SSJB fusion is enough against him. I don't remember if SSJB Vegetto was confirmed to be stronger than Beerus though. If SSJB Vegetto > Beerus then I could definitely see SSJB Gogeta defeating Broly depending on the gap between Broly and Beerus.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 7, 2018 21:00:35 GMT
I think he may still have Gogeta win. He has had fusion fail every other time that he may still choose to have it work this time even if Toei did it first with Fusion Reborn. The difference could be instead of a quick kill is we see a big battle where Gogeta just barely beats Broly before time runs out, which is different from Fusion Reborn and the two situations where we had Vegetto (Goku and Vegeta fusion is so OP that the villain gets overpowered and easily subdued). I say we cross the UI bridge when we get there. They may get by with Gogeta in SSGSS. They may just defeat Broly and leave him alive, which would also be something different from the old movies and leaves Broly open to be used again. If his enemies instead of trying to kill him and failing which leads to another sequel we could get a Broly who is confused by the act of mercy than leave to figure stuff out. There is a lot they can do here that is different from the old movies yet still have Gogeta win the fight. Broly's supposed to be stronger than a GoD at full power so I'm not sure if a SSJB fusion is enough against him. I don't remember if SSJB Vegetto was confirmed to be stronger than Beerus though. If SSJB Vegetto > Beerus then I could definitely see SSJB Gogeta defeating Broly depending on the gap between Broly and Beerus. At this point the power scale is whatever is good for the plot. If Broly is stronger than Beerus but Toriyama is like sure Gogeta can be too since he is only around for a short time than we’ll get that. If he doesn’t we won’t get it. It is as simple as that. Toriyama isn’t putting as much thought into a power scale as the fans. If he did we wouldn’t be getting blanket terms like stronger than a GoD which is so broad that is laughable. At least back in the old days when someone said as strong as SS2 we could follow it up with as strong as Gohan was when he beat Cell or as strong as Majin Vegeta to distinguish them. Now I can say stronger than a GoD and gives me no idea what the hell that even means.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 21:55:55 GMT
At this point the power scale is whatever is good for the plot. If Broly is stronger than Beerus but Toriyama is like sure Gogeta can be too since he is only around for a short time than we’ll get that. If he doesn’t we won’t get it. It is as simple as that. Toriyama isn’t putting as much thought into a power scale as the fans. If he did we wouldn’t be getting blanket terms like stronger than a GoD which is so broad that is laughable. At least back in the old days when someone said as strong as SS2 we could follow it up with as strong as Gohan was when he beat Cell or as strong as Majin Vegeta to distinguish them. Now I can say stronger than a GoD and gives me no idea what the hell that even means. Well, literally everything in the story is based on the plot. Jiren and Broly were the only mortals confirmed to be stronger than the GoDs but nothing contradicts SSJB Vegetto or Gogeta being stronger than Broly because we have no idea how strong they are. They included Vegetto in the Goku Black saga for fan service so they could still give fans a good fight between Gogeta and Broly without Gogeta winning.
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