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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 11, 2021 21:04:35 GMT
So I know with how he’s been written in this comic as nothing more than a talking head doesn’t make him the most popular. What I’m curious about is why do you think he was nerfed so severely in DBM?
I know some of it was filler from Z but he was shown to be quite powerful in his own right and even comparable to South Supreme Kai if not stronger as Buu took on his form as his main form(Fat Buu) over his previous buff South Supreme Kai form. I suppose if it’s because of anything like the English anime mistranslations about how this absorption weakened Buu to wank up Kid Buu’s power as the final fight in Z. That could be the cause but not sure what the French translation said about him. Instead of his absorption just tempering Buu and his evil because of his jolly nature, with Fat Buu now keeping the lions share of his power seemingly dormant. DBM went with Dai Kaio also destroying his own brain before being absorbed if I remember right to dumb Buu down.
I actually don’t mind that idea even though I think they could have just went with Grand Supreme Kais good and possibly magical nature being what changed Buu for the better instead of being that over the top with it but I digress.
Would have been cool imo if Grand Supreme Kai had stepped in after the other Kais were beat by Koldyu in the Majin rebellion and unleashed that cube laser attack from the anime and just diced and ended Ginyu on the spot while he was bragging to Babadi about his kills. Instead of Gohan just nuking him along with everyone else left like we got.
I also don’t know much about him in Super as I stopped keeping up with it awhile ago but have heard that he was given a boost as he supposedly has god ki which makes sense I guess.
Him being the head of all the Supreme Kais should make him quite capable in more areas than the others besides just leading them and standing around, if not with just straight power than with his magic. As it’s arguable that Buu got his “candy beam” from this magical Kai on top of many other of his amazing magical abilities, as Kid Buu didn’t have these magical moves at all if I remember correctly. Even though that seems to be forgotten often in most DB media and games now a days, as Kid Buu just seems to be born with this OP magic now for some reason.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 11, 2021 21:12:53 GMT
Personally I take less issue with his power level, as really stuff like this can fluctuate from canon to non-canon material, but more so his characterization and utility. He is portrayed as an incompetent idiot, and has become a meme of a useless god despite the entire point of his universe being they are deities who actually do things. Just feels kinda sad all things considered.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 11, 2021 21:49:55 GMT
Personally I take less issue with his power level, as really stuff like this can fluctuate from canon to non-canon material, but more so his characterization and utility. He is portrayed as an incompetent idiot, and has become a meme of a useless god despite the entire point of his universe being they are deities who actually do things. Just feels kinda sad all things considered. With you on that, think I wouldn’t mind him being nerfed so much if he wasn’t made out to be a complete idiot in DBM just for a quick punchline or so Buu could lead him on some more with whatever his true end game is. I really like the idea of him and Zen Buu working together, just think him being more powerful/competent would be better instead of being basically reduced to a meme as you said, with him being at Zen Buus mercy at the end of the day. Them both being big brains and working together to figure out XXIs plan most likely is a really cool idea imo. Not just Buu pretty much calling all the shots and Dai Kaio being along for the ride as he seems to be here. Especially after miss Majin Bra stomped on his head and how he reacted to the Majin rebellion overall, forced to beg Buu for help. He coulda been so much more in this comic imo.
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Post by Skarr on Dec 12, 2021 12:48:13 GMT
Would have been cool imo if Grand Supreme Kai had stepped in after the other Kais were beat by Koldyu in the Majin rebellion and unleashed that cube laser attack from the anime and just diced and ended Ginyu on the spot, instead of Gohan just nuking Ginyu along with everyone else left like we got. I think it would've been cool if he defeated Dabura or Koldyu. In DBM, it uses the theory that Buu's first absorptions were like a defense mechanism so Grand Kaioshin had to have something for Buu to feel threatened enough to absorb him instead of killing him like North and West Kaioshin. If he could threaten Buu at all then I think he should've been able to put up a fight against some guys weaker than Buu. That might've been his only opportunity since the remaining possible antagonists are beyond that level like Vegetto and XXI.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 12, 2021 19:22:54 GMT
I am really confused by Grand Supreme Kai’s position in the story. It seems to be implying he isn’t a fighter and is the weakest of the Supreme Kai in terms of raw power, but if that is the case how did he manage to trigger absorption defense mechanism in Buff Buu? DBM established Kid Buu didn’t consciously know how to do it like Super Buu and that it was a defense mechanism put in place should Majin Buu faced someone who was either stronger than him or capable of killing him. Grand Supreme Kai cannot help his subordinates fight off Dabura how could he have ever been threatening to a SS3 class fighter such as Buff Buu?
Not even joining the fight during the revolt seemed odd and painted him as ineffective, indecisive, and impotent. I didn’t expect him to come in and one shot everyone, but I did expect him to help fight Babidi’s forces like the other Supreme Kai. It is just a weird change to have him not do anything except talk to Bra at the last second. It felt really odd for him to not be involved in the battle at all.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 12, 2021 21:37:54 GMT
Agreed all around with the responses from you guys. Having Dai Kaio maybe stand back at first possibly because of the pretentiousness of his position/title could work but he shouldn’t have been made into such a chump. As was brought up already he ended up as the main stand for Buus absorption form before Z’s events. So Dai Kaio being possibly SSJ3 tier shouldn’t be that big of deal. Especially if OG Buus defensive absorptions before Z hold up here, so don’t see an issue with Dai Kaio being more powerful than South Supreme Kai, that being because of his magic or possibly because of him having more pure power.
Honestly if he would have stepped in and been more important, it really wouldn’t have changed the story much at all. Bra could of still crushed him if they wanted to keep his feel good/you’re better than this speech in the Majin rebellion arc intact along with his death. As she’s obviously well above Kid Buu or SSJ3 level. So the big Kai being SSJ2/3 level could have allowed him to do something cool in the rebellion and at least had him die with some sort of dignity.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 13, 2021 4:13:41 GMT
I am really confused by Grand Supreme Kai’s position in the story. It seems to be implying he isn’t a fighter and is the weakest of the Supreme Kai in terms of raw power, but if that is the case how did he manage to trigger absorption defense mechanism in Buff Buu? DBM established Kid Buu didn’t consciously know how to do it like Super Buu and that it was a defense mechanism put in place should Majin Buu faced someone who was either stronger than him or capable of killing him. Grand Supreme Kai cannot help his subordinates fight off Dabura how could he have ever been threatening to a SS3 class fighter such as Buff Buu? Not even joining the fight during the revolt seemed odd and painted him as ineffective, indecisive, and impotent. I didn’t expect him to come in and one shot everyone, but I did expect him to help fight Babidi’s forces like the other Supreme Kai. It is just a weird change to have him not do anything except talk to Bra at the last second. It felt really odd for him to not be involved in the battle at all. A bit off topic but can I just say I hate this bit of head canon. It kinda robs one of the scarier implications of Kid/Majin Buu, that as childish as they seem and as "dumb" as they appear to be they have some deceptive cleverness to them. They are more than they seem at first glance, like Majin Buu quickly learning & copying the Kamehameha or Kid Buu using Goku's inability to toss the Spirit Bomb near Vegeta against him by taking him as a hostage.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 13, 2021 16:32:23 GMT
True, as feral as everyone loves to say Kid Buu is, he did have a few moments of smart tactical moves in between all his madness as he isn’t completely mindless. If he was able to tell that Goku wasn’t willing to throw the spirit bomb while Vegeta was down and in the way then he could plan absorptions as well I think.
So I’m sure his early absorptions could be planned over just being a product of self defensive like DBM went with. Maybe it’s more defensive in Fat Buus case but even then as was already brought up, Fat Buu also was able to learn things at a stellar rate and wasn’t as dumb as he lead on to be. So him wanting/planning to absorb someone as well isn’t out of the question either. I’m ok with either interpretation of why his dumber forms first absorbed anybody honestly.
What i’m curious about is if the Kid Buu we saw in Z was superior to what he was back when the Kais first fought him before the series started. Like if he maybe retained any of the tactics/abilities from his previous forms, maybe even higher brain power from learning things or if he was just the same as he was before Z.
I really doubt this because I don’t recall it ever being mentioned anywhere but just a thought, Kid Buu being weaker back then could be an excuse for the Supreme Kais being nerfed/weaker than originally thought because they were fighting a weaker Buu before all of his absorptions/potential fighting knowledge he possibly gained there after. One problem with this theory though is that the 4 Kais under Dai Kaio seem to be at a similar power level as to what they were thought to be at in canon so South should have beat the breaks off Buu if he was weaker and maybe he did, as he was absorbed after all. So Grand Supreme Kai actual seems to be the only one hit with the DBM nerf hammer here.
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Post by Skarr on Dec 13, 2021 18:57:54 GMT
A bit off topic but can I just say I hate this bit of head canon. It kinda robs one of the scarier implications of Kid/Majin Buu, that as childish as they seem and as "dumb" as they appear to be they have some deceptive cleverness to them. They are more than they seem at first glance, like Majin Buu quickly learning & copying the Kamehameha or Kid Buu using Goku's inability to toss the Spirit Bomb near Vegeta against him by taking him as a hostage. I suppose it could make him scarier in a way because he was just born and such a quick learner. He immediately learned to teleport when it's a pretty complicated technique and followed Goku and Vegeta to the Kaioshin planet on his first attempt.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 13, 2021 20:32:19 GMT
A bit off topic but can I just say I hate this bit of head canon. It kinda robs one of the scarier implications of Kid/Majin Buu, that as childish as they seem and as "dumb" as they appear to be they have some deceptive cleverness to them. They are more than they seem at first glance, like Majin Buu quickly learning & copying the Kamehameha or Kid Buu using Goku's inability to toss the Spirit Bomb near Vegeta against him by taking him as a hostage. I suppose it could make him scarier in a way because he was just born and such a quick learner. He immediately learned to teleport when it's a pretty complicated technique and followed Goku and Vegeta to the Kaioshin planet on his first attempt. But the automatic absorption isn't portrayed as Kid Buu or Majin Buu being "clever" but an automatic defense system, as they are too stupid to know how to do it of any conscious mind. That does not invoke the fear that a Buu who is childish but does have that capacity for malicious thought does. Makes them much lamer.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 13, 2021 21:05:29 GMT
I suppose it could make him scarier in a way because he was just born and such a quick learner. He immediately learned to teleport when it's a pretty complicated technique and followed Goku and Vegeta to the Kaioshin planet on his first attempt. But the automatic absorption isn't portrayed as Kid Buu or Majin Buu being "clever" but an automatic defense system, as they are too stupid to know how to do it of any conscious mind. That does not invoke the fear that a Buu who is childish but does have that capacity for malicious thought does. Makes them much lamer. Thinking more about it, DBMs auto defensive absorption theory for the weaker Buus gets a bit of a hole blown in it by the author himself. As was already said, if Dai Kaio was so weak why did he trigger an auto absorption from an even stronger buff Buu? Unless Buu did it on his own accord or Kaio actually has some uber magic that Salagir hasn’t revealed yet for whatever reason. He should have just been squashed like the other two unabsorbed Kais. DBM could have easily avoided this issue if they wouldn’t have nerfed him for some unknown reason. Imo it would be a pretty lame writing take to buff him at this point unfortunately, seeing as the big Kai did absolutely nothing in an extremely dire situation “Majin Rebellion” not a finger lifted by him and all he did was beg to Buu for help. Was zero reason for him to hold back in that situation. So if it’s treated like he’s been holding back and he all the sudden gets a power buff in DBM down the road, it wouldn’t make much sense now. A shame because with the amount of cool magic that Fat Buu inherited from this Kai in canon, the big guy should’ve had some amazing tricks up his triple XL sleeve.
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Post by Skarr on Dec 13, 2021 22:47:51 GMT
But the automatic absorption isn't portrayed as Kid Buu or Majin Buu being "clever" but an automatic defense system, as they are too stupid to know how to do it of any conscious mind. That does not invoke the fear that a Buu who is childish but does have that capacity for malicious thought does. Makes them much lamer. If Kid Buu was unleashed after he was created, he might not have had a full grasp of all his abilities yet. There wasn't an in-universe reason why only Super Buu started absorbing people but he absorbed Piccolo was might've been weaker than some of the Kaioshin. He was definitely weaker than Dabura who Fat Buu killed. Fat Buu might've been a little smarter than Kid Buu due to some Kaioshin influence.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 13, 2021 23:35:39 GMT
But the automatic absorption isn't portrayed as Kid Buu or Majin Buu being "clever" but an automatic defense system, as they are too stupid to know how to do it of any conscious mind. That does not invoke the fear that a Buu who is childish but does have that capacity for malicious thought does. Makes them much lamer. If Kid Buu was unleashed after he was created, he might not have had a full grasp of all his abilities yet. There wasn't an in-universe reason why only Super Buu started absorbing people but he absorbed Piccolo was might've been weaker than some of the Kaioshin. He was definitely weaker than Dabura who Fat Buu killed. Fat Buu might've been a little smarter than Kid Buu due to some Kaioshin influence. Pretty sure the implication was the Grand Supreme Kai being absorbed by Buu worked to limit the evil in its heart, making him "nicer" which probably quelled that desire to absorb other living beings into himself. Beyond that Majin Buu never had a reason to need to absorb anyone. Dabura was curb stomped, Gohan was one shot, Vegeta was his ragdoll, the fight with Goku was more "playful" and Gotenks was an off screen beat down. Nothing in the story suggested to Buu he'd need to absorb anyone or he felt threatened enough to consider that. Super Buu only got the idea cause he sensed Gohan's overwhelming power and couldn't get around that on his current level. I don't see much evidence that there is a major intellect difference between Majin and Kid Buu. Both are childish and simplistic, with a decisive subtle cleverness to them when need be. Heck Kid Buu used a tactical move initially against Goku's spirit bomb with Vegeta as I mentioned before. Super Buu was a similar regard though probably a little smarter or least "more advanced" mentally if still childish.
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Post by Skarr on Dec 14, 2021 1:56:55 GMT
I don't see much evidence that there is a major intellect difference between Majin and Kid Buu. Both are childish and simplistic, with a decisive subtle cleverness to them when need be. Heck Kid Buu used a tactical move initially against Goku's spirit bomb with Vegeta as I mentioned before. Super Buu was a similar regard though probably a little smarter or least "more advanced" mentally if still childish. I think Fat Buu was interested in more than just destruction. Kid Buu destroyed the Earth as soon as he was restored while Fat Buu played around, learned how to build a house, etc. Super Buu seemed smarter since he planned ahead and managed to absorb beings equal or stronger than himself. Goku didn't seem worried that would happen against Kid Buu when he went all out so maybe he assumed it would be harder for this version. All the Kaioshin were weaker than Goku but South and Grand Kaioshin might've had magic that could threaten Buu.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 14, 2021 3:09:56 GMT
So I know with how he’s been written in this comic as nothing more than a talking head doesn’t make him the most popular. What I’m curious about is why do you think he was nerfed so severely in DBM? I know some of it was filler from Z but he was shown to be quite powerful in his own right and even comparable to South Supreme Kai if not stronger as Buu took on his form as his main form(Fat Buu) over his previous buff South Supreme Kai form. I suppose if it’s because of anything like the English anime mistranslations about how this absorption weakened Buu to wank up Kid Buu’s power as the final fight in Z. That could be the cause but not sure what the French translation said about him. Instead of his absorption just tempering Buu and his evil because of his jolly nature, with Fat Buu now keeping the lions share of his power seemingly dormant. DBM went with Dai Kaio also destroying his own brain in DBM before being absorbed if I remember right to dumb Buu down. I actually don’t mind that idea even though I think they could have just went with Grand Supreme Kais good and possibly magical nature being what changed Buu for the better instead of being that over the top with it but I digress. Would have been cool imo if Grand Supreme Kai had stepped in after the other Kais were beat by Koldyu in the Majin rebellion and unleashed that cube laser attack from the anime and just diced and ended Ginyu on the spot while he was bragging to Babadi about his kills. Instead of Gohan just nuking him along with everyone else left like we got. I also don’t know much about him in Super as I stopped keeping up with it awhile ago but have heard that he was given a boost as he supposedly has god ki which makes sense I guess. Him being the head of all the Supreme Kais should make him quite capable in more areas than the others besides just leading them and standing around, if not with just straight power than with his magic. As it’s arguable that Buu got his “candy beam” from this magical Kai on top of many other of his amazing magical abilities, as Kid Buu didn’t have these magical moves at all if I remember correctly. Even though that seems to be forgotten often in most DB media and games now a days, as Kid Buu just seems to be born with this OP magic now for some reason. I think Dai Kaio might be weaker than South Kai but he still should have been very powerful compared to the other three.
Also Kid Buu is arguably as strong if not stronger than Fat Buu. Goku was literally stalling around against Fat Buu while against Kid Buu was a fight to the death.
"Would have been cool imo if Grand Supreme Kai had stepped in after the other Kais were beat by Koldyu in the Majin rebellion and unleashed that cube laser attack from the anime and just diced and ended Ginyu on the spot while he was bragging to Babadi about his kills. Instead of Gohan just nuking him along with everyone else left like we got."
That would have been so awesome. Wish that happened instead of Gohan one-shotting him.
"I also don’t know much about him in Super as I stopped keeping up with it awhile ago but have heard that he was given a boost as he supposedly has god ki which makes sense I guess."
Makes little sense though if Kid Buu was still able to beat Dai Kaio. Sure, Buu only did it by absorbing him but still. Kind of like saying Buu could beat Beerus if Buu just went with absorption, except he would get Hakai'd.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 14, 2021 3:11:09 GMT
Personally I take less issue with his power level, as really stuff like this can fluctuate from canon to non-canon material, but more so his characterization and utility. He is portrayed as an incompetent idiot, and has become a meme of a useless god despite the entire point of his universe being they are deities who actually do things. Just feels kinda sad all things considered. Yeah, his characterization is probably even worse than power level being as low as it is. Because the dumbass did nothing but plead to a pink bubblegum demon who gave zero fucks and sees everything as a game to him during the Majin Crisis besides hurt Bra's fellings.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 14, 2021 3:39:09 GMT
So I know with how he’s been written in this comic as nothing more than a talking head doesn’t make him the most popular. What I’m curious about is why do you think he was nerfed so severely in DBM? I know some of it was filler from Z but he was shown to be quite powerful in his own right and even comparable to South Supreme Kai if not stronger as Buu took on his form as his main form(Fat Buu) over his previous buff South Supreme Kai form. I suppose if it’s because of anything like the English anime mistranslations about how this absorption weakened Buu to wank up Kid Buu’s power as the final fight in Z. That could be the cause but not sure what the French translation said about him. Instead of his absorption just tempering Buu and his evil because of his jolly nature, with Fat Buu now keeping the lions share of his power seemingly dormant. DBM went with Dai Kaio also destroying his own brain in DBM before being absorbed if I remember right to dumb Buu down. I actually don’t mind that idea even though I think they could have just went with Grand Supreme Kais good and possibly magical nature being what changed Buu for the better instead of being that over the top with it but I digress. Would have been cool imo if Grand Supreme Kai had stepped in after the other Kais were beat by Koldyu in the Majin rebellion and unleashed that cube laser attack from the anime and just diced and ended Ginyu on the spot while he was bragging to Babadi about his kills. Instead of Gohan just nuking him along with everyone else left like we got. I also don’t know much about him in Super as I stopped keeping up with it awhile ago but have heard that he was given a boost as he supposedly has god ki which makes sense I guess. Him being the head of all the Supreme Kais should make him quite capable in more areas than the others besides just leading them and standing around, if not with just straight power than with his magic. As it’s arguable that Buu got his “candy beam” from this magical Kai on top of many other of his amazing magical abilities, as Kid Buu didn’t have these magical moves at all if I remember correctly. Even though that seems to be forgotten often in most DB media and games now a days, as Kid Buu just seems to be born with this OP magic now for some reason. I think Dai Kaio might be weaker than South Kai but he still should have been very powerful compared to the other three.
Also Kid Buu is arguably as strong if not stronger than Fat Buu. Goku was literally stalling around against Fat Buu while against Kid Buu was a fight to the death.
"Would have been cool imo if Grand Supreme Kai had stepped in after the other Kais were beat by Koldyu in the Majin rebellion and unleashed that cube laser attack from the anime and just diced and ended Ginyu on the spot while he was bragging to Babadi about his kills. Instead of Gohan just nuking him along with everyone else left like we got."
That would have been so awesome. Wish that happened instead of Gohan one-shotting him.
"I also don’t know much about him in Super as I stopped keeping up with it awhile ago but have heard that he was given a boost as he supposedly has god ki which makes sense I guess."
Makes little sense though if Kid Buu was still able to beat Dai Kaio. Sure, Buu only did it by absorbing him but still. Kind of like saying Buu could beat Beerus if Buu just went with absorption, except he would get Hakai'd. For sure I’m probably wrong and was just too lazy to look it up ha, wasn’t explained well on my part about what I meant about Dai Kaio in Super. I just meant more that him getting that god ki buff probably also meant that he was getting more attention in canon again. So I just figured the writers might have buffed him up power wise or whatever in the series along with giving him the god ki. Like I said I haven’t seen any of it so was just an empty assumption on my part. That maybe reflecting on how he would preform against Kid Buu if that were the case. I shouldn’t have even brought it up honestly. As far as Fat Buu compared to Kid I think you’re selling Fat a bit short. I’v bounced back and forth on that myself. I don’t think Goku quite knew exactly what he was dealing with at first with Fat Buu and not so sure he could have finished off an angry Fat Buu so easily like he first thought, as Fat Buu didn’t seem to be trying that hard against Goku either. I always figured that pre split he had the power capability’s of Super Buu but it only came out in his extreme bouts of anger, as that power should have been in him after all. And his turning into Super Buu was like letting his anger take over and now that power being on the outside instead of being contained. Of course after he expelled his evil half “Mr. Buu” was quite a bit weaker and came off as high SSJ2 tier at best as he clearly didn’t have access to that power after he had spit out his evil side.
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Post by Skarr on Dec 14, 2021 15:01:57 GMT
For sure I’m probably wrong and was just too lazy to look it up ha, wasn’t explained well on my part about what I meant about Dai Kaio in Super. I just meant more that him getting that god ki buff probably also meant that he was getting more attention in canon again. So I just figured the writers might have buffed him up power wise or whatever in the series along with giving him the god ki. Like I said I haven’t seen any of it so was just an empty assumption on my part. That maybe reflecting on how he would preform against Kid Buu if that were the case. I shouldn’t have even brought it up honestly. It's been a while so I don't remember all the details of the Moro arc. I recall that most of Grand Kaioshin's god ki was used to seal or weaken Moro ten million years ago. After Mr Buu split from Kid Buu, his remaining God ki went to the evil half so Uub has it now. I think it was a way to explain why Goku would still be excited to fight Uub after meeting all these guys stronger than Buu since Uub has Kid Buu's potential plus GK's remaining god ki now. I forgot if they explained how GK using Mr Buu's body performed better against Moro than Blue Goku and Vegeta but maybe his magic was stronger than Moro's and made up for the difference in power. That's what I think as well since technically Fat and Super Buu are made up of the same parts and just rearranged. Maybe more GK influence in Fat Buu suppresses some of his power but I don't think he's too far behind Super Buu when really angry.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 14, 2021 21:10:18 GMT
“ Skarr” Hmm sounds like the typical DBS bs of taking older things from DB cannon and changing/retconning them from older established DB media just to try and explain some new stupid reason as to why the gods in DBS were so strong but not present in Z for some reason. And also to why they didn’t keep Buu in check for some reason. Not a fan of that kind of writing and it’s why I don’t care for Super overall I guess. Instead of the writers actually being creative and coming up with something new for the series they just retcon whatever from the older series so they can come up with new BS for the Super series. So not surprised. Not sure why they have such a hard time coming up with new stuff instead of latching onto and ruining older DB cannon. Anyway yea I do think OG Buu was pretty powerful in his own right, curious of how it would have went down if the OG Fat Buu fought Kid Buu instead of his weaker split self. I think OG Fat Buu could have given Kid Buu a run for his money at the very least.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 14, 2021 21:38:35 GMT
You are free to dislike Super if you want, but in one arc it made the Grand Kai more useful than frankly he has ever been presented in DBM. I easily prefer that version of him than the joke we've gotten here.
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