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Post by Skarr on Feb 15, 2022 16:01:35 GMT
Maybe like with what DBM really loves to show off lately with its take on magic. It’s possible that even if Dai Kaio was a bit weaker than South Kai, Kaios magic or abilities could have closed the gap or even made him superior to South in a way. Filler aside, as i’v brought up before thought it could be sort of implied Dai Kaio had some very impressive magic/abilities that may have put him above the others. That is if what we see Fat Buu magically demonstrate later was truly gained from Grand Kaioshins absorption anyway, as Buus magic was definitely much more impressive than anything East Supreme Kai showed off anyhow. So if Buu did indeed inherit it from absorbing fatso I’d say Dai Kaio was at a much higher level than East in that regard, maybe even the other Supreme Kais as well. Basically showing that the Supreme Kais could differ in more areas than just strength. Old Kai being sort of a weird case because of his whole fusion with a witch thing. Yeah I think it could've been used to boost Grand Kaioshin or have him specialize in magic. It seems that all the other Kaioshin are still between the Frost Demons and Gohan when he pulled out the Z Sword since they struggled against Dabura and Ginyu. It's a good point that Grand was absorbed after Buu might've became less wild so maybe DBM assumed absorbing Grand was a conscious decision rather than a defense mechanism. He might've been stronger than North and West Kaioshin enough for Buu to want to absorb him but still below South. I don't think it's necessarily nerfing Grand and that South was made far stronger than the manga implied so it makes the other Kaioshin look weaker. When I wanted to see Grand fight in the MR, I was still expecting him to be weaker than SSJ2 Gohan and only helping the other Kaioshin.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Feb 21, 2022 3:52:54 GMT
Biggest nerf was in his brain for the sake of an order vs chaos plotline. The last scene felt so random, I actually think it's gonna be important for the whole plot of DBM later on as U5 is revealed as the universe where the Kais didn't act whatsoever.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 21, 2022 4:22:14 GMT
When I said nerfed I was more referring it seems as if Grand is weaker than Dabura in DBM canon. Dabura feels confident he can take them down without South. Grand never objects to this, but rather points out his death wouldn't really get them anything. It stands out as odd since in both DB and DBM lore Buu absorbed South and Grand, which implies they were the strongest fighters amongst the Supreme Kai and at least challenged Majin Buu enough that he felt the need to absorb them rather than outright kill them like he did with West and North. For any Supreme Kai to challenge Buu makes odd for one of them to be deemed weaker than Dabura. Granted Dabura is no weakling, but he just doesn't hold a candle to any form of Majin Buu. It seems like this was done intentionally for some reason. Yeah I'm not sure how strong Grand Kaioshin is intended to be in DBM. I think it would've been fitting for him to fight Dabura since they're somewhat like counterparts. I'm just not sure if he's necessarily nerfed because the manga said that none of the Kaioshin were able to pull out the Z Sword implying they were all weaker than Gohan. Gohan was either in SSJ1 or maybe SSJ2 without sparks. It's only headcanon that the Kaioshin can't wield it in order to make South Kaioshin stronger than Gohan at the time. The manga didn't really explain why Buu decided to absorb South and Grand Kaioshin. In DBM, they assumed it was a defense mechanism but we've only seen South strong enough to do it. It's weird because the manga said South was the strongest Kaioshin so I'm not sure what Grand did to get himself absorbed by an even stronger Buu than the one who had just absorbed South. That is the weird thing about Grand in DBM. It seems like Salagir took the whole South got absorbed by Kid Buu meant he was a SS3 level fighter. This seems to even be supported by DBM's own absorption being a defense mechanism put in by Bibidi on the off chance Buu encountered someone stronger than him. The North and West were killed because they were indeed weaker. For Grand to be absorbed as well at least implies Grand can fight at a SS3 level, to either trigger the mechanism in Buff Buu or for Buff Buu to chosen to absorb Grand himself, so it becomes odd to me that Grand just sat out the revolt. Even when his subordinates were being killed Grand stayed out of it. Even Grand's raw power isn't SS3 level it seems he is capable of fighting above his weight class to lure Buff Buu into absorbing him so he could pull his destroy his mind stunt to lower Buu's intelligence. I cannot for the life of me understand why Grand did nothing in the revolt beyond Grand was just meant to be all talk. That does sort of line up with U4 Buu mocking him on how powerless he was to fix anything and reduced to bag him for help. That feels at odds for how Buu absorption was handled in DBM, which seems to favor South and Grand were at least stronger than the other three. I just have little hopes in this character at this point. What I have seen so far, Grand Supreme Kai is one of my least DBM interpretations.
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Post by Skarr on Feb 22, 2022 15:02:37 GMT
That is the weird thing about Grand in DBM. It seems like Salagir took the whole South got absorbed by Kid Buu meant he was a SS3 level fighter. This seems to even be supported by DBM's own absorption being a defense mechanism put in by Bibidi on the off chance Buu encountered someone stronger than him. The North and West were killed because they were indeed weaker. For Grand to be absorbed as well at least implies Grand can fight at a SS3 level, to either trigger the mechanism in Buff Buu or for Buff Buu to chosen to absorb Grand himself, so it becomes odd to me that Grand just sat out the revolt. I guess they weren't clear with how strong the other Kaioshin were intended to be. In old comments, Salagir only ever mentioned South Kaioshin being stronger than Gohan when he pulled out the Z Sword so they might've only intended for the others to be between Shin and SSJ Gohan. I think DBM's headcanon is only to try to explain why South was absorbed first since it wasn't explained in the manga why Kid Buu absorbed him but didn't attempt to absorb any of the characters fighting him or reabsorb the other Z fighters. It might've been a last minute decision by Toriyama so that Buu could have a different original form than the fat one since Shin said that the four other Kaioshin were killed by Buu on the way to Babidi's ship. I've heard a fan theory that Grand being absorbed after was similar to when Super Buu absorbed Piccolo since Piccolo wasn't a threat but could've been considered a useful absorption.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 22, 2022 18:18:54 GMT
That is the weird thing about Grand in DBM. It seems like Salagir took the whole South got absorbed by Kid Buu meant he was a SS3 level fighter. This seems to even be supported by DBM's own absorption being a defense mechanism put in by Bibidi on the off chance Buu encountered someone stronger than him. The North and West were killed because they were indeed weaker. For Grand to be absorbed as well at least implies Grand can fight at a SS3 level, to either trigger the mechanism in Buff Buu or for Buff Buu to chosen to absorb Grand himself, so it becomes odd to me that Grand just sat out the revolt. I guess they weren't clear with how strong the other Kaioshin were intended to be. In old comments, Salagir only ever mentioned South Kaioshin being stronger than Gohan when he pulled out the Z Sword so they might've only intended for the others to be between Shin and SSJ Gohan. I think DBM's headcanon is only to try to explain why South was absorbed first since it wasn't explained in the manga why Kid Buu absorbed him but didn't attempt to absorb any of the characters fighting him or reabsorb the other Z fighters. It might've been a last minute decision by Toriyama so that Buu could have a different original form than the fat one since Shin said that the four other Kaioshin were killed by Buu on the way to Babidi's ship. I've heard a fan theory that Grand being absorbed after was similar to when Super Buu absorbed Piccolo since Piccolo wasn't a threat but could've been considered a useful absorption. My head canon was always South being SS3 tier fighter. I just think absorbing him to get stronger makes the most sense. Granted the Z-Sword plot does suggests all the Supreme Kai were below SS2 tier, but since the Kid Buu stuff and probably hadn’t been thought of yet. This why I liked DBM’s own idea that the Z-Sword was enchanted so the Kai/gods couldn’t release it. It bridges the two ideas of South and Grand being strong enough to oppose Buu and prove worthy of absorption and why those two couldn’t pull out the sword. The rest of the Supreme Kai are up in the air. I have always felt East/Shin was likely the weakest since he was the youngest and most inexperienced. I had no problem with them being below SS2 tier. It used at baffles me that Grand seemed to powerless that he never even made the attempt to fight. Perhaps this could be a nod to how the anime’s portrayal of regular Grand Kai was supposed to be very strong, but in reality was much weaker than Goku and Pikon. Perhaps Grand Supreme is meant to seem to be an impressive deity with remarkable power and ability, but in reality has done nothing for so long his skills have diminished to the point where he simply has become the weakest link c the four and he is all talk now.
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Post by godjacob on Feb 22, 2022 18:22:36 GMT
Honestly the sword bit always came off to me as another Toriyama gag as much as anything. "Oh not even the gods can lift this, it's hopeless mortal!" and Gohan then lifts it to make Kibito shit himself.
Then again the whole sword thing might just be a consequence of Toriyama's seat of his pants writing style.
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Post by Skarr on Feb 22, 2022 19:26:55 GMT
The rest of the Supreme Kai are up in the air. I have always felt East/Shin was likely the weakest since he was the youngest and most inexperienced. I had no problem with them being below SS2 tier. It used at baffles me that Grand seemed to powerless that he never even made the attempt to fight. Perhaps this could be a nod to how the anime’s portrayal of regular Grand Kai was supposed to be very strong, but in reality was much weaker than Goku and Pikon. Perhaps Grand Supreme is meant to seem to be an impressive deity with remarkable power and ability, but in reality has done nothing for so long his skills have diminished to the point where he simply has become the weakest link c the four and he is all talk now. That might be the case. To be honest I'm not sure of the exact role of the Grand Kai and Kaioshin since there are four Kais/Kaioshin for each cardinal direction so only role left is leading the four below them. In the beginning of the MR, he was calm because he knew Buu wouldn't let Babidi win and only underestimated when Buu would intervene. The other Kaioshin didn't know if the stranded contestants were still alive so they were forced to fight. I don't think that should erase everything he's done before in U1 because they were the strongest in their universe but overestimated how much control they would have in the tournament.
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Post by dbmaccount on Mar 2, 2022 13:32:46 GMT
All of the gods were nerfed. If they're this powerful, they should've been able to handle Babidi in the million billion years since Buu was sealed.
I mean, I don't really blame Toriyama, because it's not easy to write immortal thinking, but neither the Kais or Babidi behave like people who have been alive for over a million years.
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Post by Son Pan on Mar 8, 2022 16:33:19 GMT
The rest of the Supreme Kai are up in the air. I have always felt East/Shin was likely the weakest since he was the youngest and most inexperienced. I had no problem with them being below SS2 tier. It used at baffles me that Grand seemed to powerless that he never even made the attempt to fight. Perhaps this could be a nod to how the anime’s portrayal of regular Grand Kai was supposed to be very strong, but in reality was much weaker than Goku and Pikon. Perhaps Grand Supreme is meant to seem to be an impressive deity with remarkable power and ability, but in reality has done nothing for so long his skills have diminished to the point where he simply has become the weakest link c the four and he is all talk now. That might be the case. To be honest I'm not sure of the exact role of the Grand Kai and Kaioshin since there are four Kais/Kaioshin for each cardinal direction so only role left is leading the four below them. In the beginning of the MR, he was calm because he knew Buu wouldn't let Babidi win and only underestimated when Buu would intervene. The other Kaioshin didn't know if the stranded contestants were still alive so they were forced to fight. I don't think that should erase everything he's done before in U1 because they were the strongest in their universe but overestimated how much control they would have in the tournament. I really like the other four. I have never disliked or got annoyed with Shin/East like most of the fandom. For me even though he failed at lot he at least tried to help out. He was the first god since Kami to actually fight on the frontlines. He was big enough to admit he under estimated the mortals and tried to rectify that by training Gohan. I liked how DBM used the other four. They are reasonable and are taking consideration of mortals. They listened to U16 Gohan’s suggestions and despite their killing villains in U1 no questions asked we have seen them treat the other villain contestants fairly. The Majin Revolt made me respect and like them more. They weren’t the strongest, but they still fought Dabura even knowing they were at a disadvantage power wise. They helped out a lot before they were killed. To me it was why I like Krillin. Both parties get shit in the fandom for being weaker than the Saiyan characters, but they still tried to help out despite their weakness. While I think DBM has my least favorite depiction of Grand Supreme Kai it has my favorite depiction of the other Supreme Kai.
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Post by godjacob on Mar 8, 2022 17:36:17 GMT
That might be the case. To be honest I'm not sure of the exact role of the Grand Kai and Kaioshin since there are four Kais/Kaioshin for each cardinal direction so only role left is leading the four below them. In the beginning of the MR, he was calm because he knew Buu wouldn't let Babidi win and only underestimated when Buu would intervene. The other Kaioshin didn't know if the stranded contestants were still alive so they were forced to fight. I don't think that should erase everything he's done before in U1 because they were the strongest in their universe but overestimated how much control they would have in the tournament. I really like the other four. I have never disliked or got annoyed with Shin/East like most of the fandom. For me even though he failed at lot he at least tried to help out. He was the first god since Kami to actually fight on the frontlines. He was big enough to admit he under estimated the mortals and tried to rectify that by training Gohan. I liked how DBM used the other four. They are reasonable and are taking consideration of mortals. They listened to U16 Gohan’s suggestions and despite their killing villains in U1 no questions asked we have seen them treat the other villain contestants fairly. The Majin Revolt made me respect and like them more. They weren’t the strongest, but they still fought Dabura even knowing they were at a disadvantage power wise. They helped out a lot before they were killed. To me it was why I like Krillin. Both parties get shit in the fandom for being weaker than the Saiyan characters, but they still tried to help out despite their weakness. While I think DBM has my least favorite depiction of Grand Supreme Kai it has my favorite depiction of the other Supreme Kai. I think Shin's reputation is due to how he was initially presented vs. what he turned out to be. When we first meet Shin he was this mysterious, hell even somewhat sinister character who seemed to have all the answers and seemed to always be in control of a situation. He makes Piccolo forfeit and wet his pants without even having to throw a punch setting him up as a big deal. Then we find out that Shin is an overly panicked character who knows so little about the Universe he watches over that he constantly underestimates his own's sides fighters and ends up overhyping the villains being consistently wrong at every turn and being the Toriyama straight guy who goes "Whaaa" when the Z-Fighters solo Babidi's minions. Him ultimately being right about the danger of Buu ends up being largely discounted because he had been nothing but wrong up to that point and his questionable tactics (Just letting the bad guys get Gohan's energy free of charge) don't paint him in a kind light. Still think the best Shin is DBS Manga's Alternate future version. That guy prepared Trunks properly for the situation to come and was the MVP in helping save the day, even at the cost of his life.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Mar 17, 2022 23:20:22 GMT
Just got done reading chapter 155 of the novelization and this little excerpt about Dai Kaio after he was done internally talking to Zen Buu while Bra was having her way with Cell and friends caught my eye. “His only hope was that they could eliminate the wizard manipulating her, but yet again, he himself couldn’t. He had to rely on the younger warriors fighting against her.”
Not sure if this was just him taking into consideration that Bra would kill him before he got a chance to get to Babadi or if it’s outright saying that he can’t even take Babadi on his own. If it’s the latter, power wise I’d say that’s another nail in the coffin for poor DBM Grand Supreme Kai. No idea why he’s such a chump in DBM, also basically says he had no way to even just disturb anything that was going on during this part of the rebellion.
So much for him being gifted magically in this comic then. Don’t know how he became the leader of the Kais.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 15, 2022 18:14:28 GMT
During Buu’s second rampage Grand is just standing around and watching everyone else fight. It is on brand for him. This character it such a disappointment that it is funny to me that I ever thought he was going to be a key player. He can’t fight. He doesn’t even try to help. He is just a spineless fanboy to Buu. I cannot imagine how he ever stopped Buu in the other universes or managed trigger Buff Buu’s absorption. He is worst than East/Shin was. At least U1 counterpart is.
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Post by Skarr on Jul 15, 2022 19:23:06 GMT
I cannot imagine how he ever stopped Buu in the other universes or managed trigger Buff Buu’s absorption. He is worst than East/Shin was. At least U1 counterpart is. To be fair, he didn't have much of a choice against Buff Buu since Grand Kaioshin was the last one standing. This version of Buu is far stronger and doesn't intend to kill him. The story does try to address why he would fight one version of Buu but not the other. I think if Zen Buu was trying to kill everyone then Grand wouldn't really have a choice but to die fighting.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 15, 2022 20:23:53 GMT
I cannot imagine how he ever stopped Buu in the other universes or managed trigger Buff Buu’s absorption. He is worst than East/Shin was. At least U1 counterpart is. To be fair, he didn't have much of a choice against Buff Buu since Grand Kaioshin was the last one standing. This version of Buu is far stronger and doesn't intend to kill him. The story does try to address why he would fight one version of Buu but not the other. I think if Zen Buu was trying to kill everyone then Grand wouldn't really have a choice but to die fighting. I doubt it. I am sure he would die on his knees pleading for Buu to use his great wisdom to spare everyone. That is more on brand for U1 Grand. Edit: Sorry, for being shitty. I just want to vent at my disappointment in Grand so far and how Buu is being used.
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Post by godjacob on Jul 15, 2022 21:02:12 GMT
I cannot imagine how he ever stopped Buu in the other universes or managed trigger Buff Buu’s absorption. He is worst than East/Shin was. At least U1 counterpart is. To be fair, he didn't have much of a choice against Buff Buu since Grand Kaioshin was the last one standing. This version of Buu is far stronger and doesn't intend to kill him. The story does try to address why he would fight one version of Buu but not the other. I think if Zen Buu was trying to kill everyone then Grand wouldn't really have a choice but to die fighting. Considering Grand Kai was giving an extended blow job of a monologue about what a superior being Zen Buu is I doubt he'd lift a finger against him. Grand Kaio at this point is just an ineffectual joke compared to his canon or even Super self. A mouth piece for the author to express how cool his OC version of Buu is.
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Post by Skarr on Jul 15, 2022 21:31:00 GMT
I doubt it. I am sure he would die on his knees pleading for Buu to use his great wisdom to spare everyone. That is more on brand for U1 Grand. Edit: Sorry, for being shitty. I just want to vent at my disappointment in Grand so far and how Buu is being used. I was basing on his fight with Kid Buu since that was the only time he fought in the original series. We didn't see it in the manga so all we know is that Grand was the last to fight him. It could've been a similar situation that he thought he didn't stand a chance and only fought as a last resort.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 15, 2022 21:40:55 GMT
I doubt it. I am sure he would die on his knees pleading for Buu to use his great wisdom to spare everyone. That is more on brand for U1 Grand. Edit: Sorry, for being shitty. I just want to vent at my disappointment in Grand so far and how Buu is being used. I was basing on his fight with Kid Buu since that was the only time he fought in the original series. We didn't see it in the manga so all we know is that Grand was the last to fight him. It could've been a similar situation that he thought he didn't stand a chance and only fought as a last resort. I understand what you meant. I just don’t think U1 Grand would fight Buu. I think he insistent on his idea of Buu being this perfect and noble being that if Buu did kill everyone he wouldn’t fight and just plead Buu to reconsider.
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Post by Skarr on Jul 15, 2022 22:09:04 GMT
I understand what you meant. I just don’t think U1 Grand would fight Buu. I think he insistent on his idea of Buu being this perfect and noble being that if Buu did kill everyone he wouldn’t fight and just plead Buu to reconsider. I think the only reason Grand spared Buu after Gast contained him was because Grand trusted him. There would have to be some difference from Grand's perspective to be willing to send home some universes who broke the rules but not Zen Buu when he had the chance. If Zen Buu turned out evil and threatened everyone, that might cause Grand to lose faith in him and have to join the fight like against Kid Buu.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 15, 2022 22:31:55 GMT
I understand what you meant. I just don’t think U1 Grand would fight Buu. I think he insistent on his idea of Buu being this perfect and noble being that if Buu did kill everyone he wouldn’t fight and just plead Buu to reconsider. I think the only reason Grand spared Buu after Gast contained him was because Grand trusted him. There would have to be some difference from Grand's perspective to be willing to send home some universes who broke the rules but not Zen Buu when he had the chance. If Zen Buu turned out evil and threatened everyone, that might cause Grand to lose faith in him and have to join the fight like against Kid Buu. I don’t understand your argument. Buu attacked them all. His reasoning for attacking them was weak. He wanted Vegetto and XXI to fight again. The judges ruled the loss was fair. Buu got upset and attacked everyone. He was going to force them to fight a new tournament under his rules. The only reason that failed is because of Gast. I think their reasons for sending Buu home were valid. I don’t trust Grand’s judgement. I think he was wrong and he made weak arguments for why he helped Buu. That is why I think Grand’s admiration of Buu is misplaced. Buu is beloved for being a chaos god. Chaos god causes chaos that puts others in danger not the benevolent deity Grand tried to paint him as. The fact that Grand’s trust of Buu leads him to not help out when others are fighting to me make him pathetic. Even when Buu told him he wouldn’t help out with Babidi he sat out most of the fight. He saw others die trying to fight or help and did nothing. He only got involved toward the end to try to talk Bra down, but that felt too little too late. I don’t like how DBM wrote Grand. The manga leaving his characterization open will never be an excuse to me to justify how this Grand acts. If you like this version that is fine.
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Post by Skarr on Jul 15, 2022 23:00:34 GMT
I don’t understand your argument. Buu attacked them all. His reasoning for attacking them was weak. He wanted Vegetto and XXI to fight again. The judges ruled the loss was fair. Buu got upset and attacked everyone. He was going to force them to fight a new tournament under his rules. The only reason that failed is because of Gast. I think their reasons for sending Buu home were valid. I don’t trust Grand’s judgement. I think he was wrong and he made weak arguments for why he helped Buu. That is why I think Grand’s admiration of Buu is misplaced. Buu is beloved for being a chaos god. Chaos god causes chaos that puts others in danger not the benevolent deity Grand tried to paint him as. The fact that Grand’s trust of Buu leads him to not help out when others are fighting to me make him pathetic. Even when Buu told him he wouldn’t help out with Babidi he sat out most of the fight. He saw others die trying to fight or help and did nothing. He only got involved toward the end to try to talk Bra down, but that felt too little too late. I don’t like how DBM wrote Grand. The manga leaving his characterization open will never be an excuse to me to justify how this Grand acts. If you like this version that is fine. I would've liked for him to help during the MR but I think arguing that he wouldn't do anything against Zen Buu if he was evil is leaving out the difference be felt between Zen Buu and other contestants they sent home and threats they killed in U1. Maybe his trust was misplaced but my point was that the trust he had was the only reason he had to spare Buu. If he felt Zen Buu was as much of a threat as the version he learned about in other universes, Broly or anyone else they killed earlier in U1, I think he would've acted the same way towards Zen Buu and wouldn't have a reason to let him stay.
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