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Post by Archon on Oct 11, 2016 20:36:45 GMT
Weeeeeeeeeeeellllllllll....
 Like I said: we don't see anyone fight until Tien attacks Cell.  JaquanYeah, Goku went from maybe 200 to 400 after three years on Kami's Lookout (I know he was 600 at start-of-Z), while all the humans went from less than that to the 2,000-level in one year. Maybe they got more out of King Kai's training, too. Perhaps Goku didn't benefit as much from either Kami or King Kai because he was training alone? Also didn't Gero drain his energy before killing him? So kinda hard to fight back when you don't have energy lol |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 23:54:28 GMT
I know The Perfect God is banned but I wanted to address the two pieces of "evidence" he was using. I've seen these come up a lot as evidence and they're a little misleading. Toriyama's interviewOut of all your characters, which one is the most (blank)? Cool: Goku “I think it’s Goku.” The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all! If you notice only I think it's Goku is in quotations so that's all that Toriyama said. That means what comes after is just a comment from the interviewer himself. He did this a few times during that interview where he quotes Toriyama and gives his opinion afterwards outside of the quotations. Nowhere in this interview does Toriyama talk about Goku's strength . The Spirit BombThis is commonly used as evidence to suggest that Kid Buu > Ultimate Gohan since the Spirit Bomb included Gohan's energy. I'm sure we're all familiar by now with the Spirit Bomb's original name, Genki Dama. This is what Toriyama said regarding the different components of ki: What is the key to winning in battle? In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki. I've seen "Genki" translated as "vitality","health", or "stamina" as well. That means the Spirit Bomb is only fueled by one component of ki and not overall ki. Goten and Trunks didn't even transform or fuse which wouldn't make sense if their goal was to give as much energy as possible. If Genki refers to health or stamina then it could explain why the Z fighters didn't power-up because their Genki would've remained constant and is independent of their power. |
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 12, 2016 0:07:14 GMT
The Spirit BombThis is commonly used as evidence to suggest that Kid Buu > Ultimate Gohan since the Spirit Bomb included Gohan's energy. I'm sure we're all familiar by now with the Spirit Bomb's original name, Genki Dama. This is what Toriyama said regarding the different components of ki: What is the key to winning in battle? In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki. I've seen "Genki" translated as "vitality","health", or "stamina" as well. That means the Spirit Bomb is only fueled by one component of ki and not overall ki. Goten and Trunks didn't even transform or fuse which wouldn't make sense if their goal was to give as much energy as possible. If Genki refers to health or stamina then it could explain why the Z fighters didn't power-up because their Genki would've remained constant and is independent of their power. That...is one of the best explanations of the Spirit Bomb I've ever heard. That explains why the people of Earth were so important. If you think about it, a PL of five times 6 billion still isn't all that much...or would've been about equal to what the Z-Fighters on the Lookout could produce. Yet the Bomb got by far its biggest boost when all the people of Earth pitched in. So maybe the Spirit Bomb's strength isn't determined so much by "total power level of everyone combined" but "how many people are contributing to the Bomb." Man, I'm going to have to start analyzing those three concepts of Ki: energy, courage, and right-mindedness. EDIT: That's a great Kaizenshuu article that Skar just linked. Ha, I knew it. Kamehameha's pronunciation. I say it "Ka-meha-meha," like the old Ocean and Funimation dubs. People get mad at me for not pronouncing it right, because it's "kame-hame-ha" in Japanese. But going by that logic--not saying it the way it was originally said--then the Japanese version isn't right, either! The original pronunciation of the Hawaiian word Toriyama used is "Ka-meha-meha." Heh heh heh... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2016 23:42:08 GMT
No but seriously how did we all miss that? Lol, I'm glad one of us is intelligent and has a keen eye Nah I fell for it too the first time I saw it . It wasn't until I read the whole interview that I finally noticed it from the other answers. It would've been clearer if they had the interviewer's comments in italics or something. |
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Post by fooshin on Oct 14, 2016 2:16:21 GMT
I always thought Vegeta was angry at Gohan because he couldn't willingly go ssj2. Still, I'm willing to believe Gotenks hadn't warmed up yet. That was another one of the reasons  The whole fighting dabura as ssj1 thing: I too always thought he was ssj2. I never even noticed the lack of sparks. It just doesn't make sense that he would be fighting a strong opponent to the death as ssj1 when he had no problem with the transformation when he was showing it off to kibito just prior at the tournament. Thats when vegeta comments after seeing his ssj2 that he was stronger as a child. |
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 14, 2016 2:36:13 GMT
The whole fighting dabura as ssj1 thing: I too always thought he was ssj2. I never even noticed the lack of sparks. It just doesn't make sense that he would be fighting a strong opponent to the death as ssj1 when he had no problem with the transformation when he was showing it off to kibito just prior at the tournament. Thats when vegeta comments after seeing his ssj2 that he was stronger as a child. I think it is a combination of Dabura not being as strong as they estimated and Gohan not losing as much power as we think he did. From my memory in the manga Gohan wasn't doing that bad against Dabura. There was a line later right before Goku faces Vegeta were he told Gohan if he got mad and cut loose like he did against Cell he would kill Dabura easily, but Gohan later remarking he couldn't do that for some reason. The line is really vague so I can see it as a reason why some think he lost the ability to go to SS2 at will or it was some kind of mental block. |
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 14, 2016 2:38:44 GMT
The whole fighting dabura as ssj1 thing: I too always thought he was ssj2. I never even noticed the lack of sparks. It just doesn't make sense that he would be fighting a strong opponent to the death as ssj1 when he had no problem with the transformation when he was showing it off to kibito just prior at the tournament. Thats when vegeta comments after seeing his ssj2 that he was stronger as a child. Goku confirmed it while they were watching Babidi much to Supreme Kai's surprise. |
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Post by fooshin on Oct 14, 2016 3:15:22 GMT
The line is really vague so I can see it as a reason why some think he lost the ability to go to SS2 at will or it was some kind of mental block.
I'm not familiar with this line, maybe it was manga only, but how can this be when he goes ssj2 for kibito right before supreme kai restrained him so his power could be drained at the tournament? Did this not happen in the manga? |
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 14, 2016 3:27:14 GMT
Moved the Dabura conversation to the Power Levels thread I think this funny picture is relevant (and it reads like a manga, right to left) : |
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 14, 2016 3:55:15 GMT
fooshin
Lol you screwed that quote all the way up
Anyway no, he transformed in the manga I believe. I don't get why some may assume he lost the ability. The lack of lightning. Toriyama was consistent with it unlike the anime. When Gohan transformed at the tournament he had lightning around his aura. Goku and Vegeta also had lightning around their aura when they went SS2, but every time Gohan fighting Dabura or Buu there was no lightning around him. People think it means Gohan wasn't SS2, especially since it was back before the SS forms had names so no one said stuff like level 2 or SS2. I don't remember if anyone confirmed if Gohan was SS2 though. It has been a while since I read my copy of the manga. I'm in favor of Gohan being SS1 against Dabura and everyone overestimated Dabura in the manga, but SS2 in the anime. Mostly because the anime I think had Gohan at more of a disadvantage than the manga so I think Dabura was stronger than they thought. |
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Post by fooshin on Oct 14, 2016 4:07:10 GMT
Kid buu<=fat buu=good buu=evil buu<north buu<super buu<buucolo<buutenks<buuhan
Kid buu is his original form and regardless of mistranslations is the weakest pl of the bunch. My theory (trying hard to make sense of the senseless) is that kai magic and babidi magic are incompatible. When kid absorbed north he did get much stronger but didn't get the intelegence and the personality of him. He then attacks grand and (salagir's take) grand destroys his brain which effectively retards buu and even thou a huge amount of power is there (grand and north) his retardation prevents him from accessing it. I think when buu split and reformed he was dealing with far more power available via north and grand and it wasn't until he was able to imprison the retardation in his mind that he was finally able to unlock all that extra power thereby becoming superbuu. Mentally I think he was still affected by the incompatible kai influence - he just no longer was restrained by what grand did.
Anyways, that's my explanation as to why he split into 2 but reformed more powerful than the original.
When good buu was ripped from super he briefly reverted to northbuu and I'm not sure why. According to salagir if you're fused too long you become permenantly part of buu. I'm guessing that half of north was in good buu and when he was pulled the other half was in Flux and ultimately failed to remain in the now original kid buu.
I think kid and fat are pretty close in power judging on goku's performance and like others opinions, I'm pretty sure that goku was just completely wrong about thinking he could defeat fat buu. He did think that gotenks could do it which is further proof that super was far superior to fat especially considering goku didn't know that gotenks could go ssj3 and still he couldn't beat super.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 14, 2016 4:14:13 GMT
I think it is a combination of Dabura not being as strong as they estimated and Gohan not losing as much power as we think he did. From my memory in the manga Gohan wasn't doing that bad against Dabura. There was a line later right before Goku faces Vegeta were he told Gohan if he got mad and cut loose like he did against Cell he would kill Dabura easily, but Gohan later remarking he couldn't do that for some reason. The line is really vague so I can see it as a reason why some think he lost the ability to go to SS2 at will or it was some kind of mental block. For those who are interested, you can read the Gohan vs. Dabura fight here. Coming up is my thought process for why Gohan was Super Saiyan 1, and Dabura was around the Perfect Cell that Goku fought. I've got a few reasons. (Warning: manga pages inbound if you reveal spoilers.) 1. Goku's statement about Dabura's strength comes from this page: Notice that neither Goku or Vegeta have been revealed to have SS2 yet. Vegeta, not knowing Goku has SS2, doesn't call out Goku for being overconfident. Goku, not knowing if Vegeta has SS2 or not, doesn't contradict Vegeta. 2. When Gohan fights Dabura, he doesn't have any sparks in his aura, while Goku and Vegeta do when they fight a few chapters later. People often say that Buu saga Gohan has two bangs as a Super Saiyan 1, which is true--for the Great Saiyaman saga. By the time of the World Tournament, Toriyama had changed his mind yet again, so that Gohan has only one bang in either form. See this picture of Gohan getting angry and going SS1 when Videl is hurt: 3. After the Dabura fight Goku told Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell, saying that then no one could beat him if he did. This implies Gohan was not angry against Dabura, a.k.a. not SS2 yet. 4. Dabura, Lord of Hell, says "What the hell is that" when he sees Goku go Super Saiyan, and this is even before Goku reveals SS2... ...and on the next page is confounded at how a race could be that strong: He then says "no one can beat me with raw strength," implying that while he's at a strength disadvantage, his magical powers will make up for it. 5. Super Perfect Cell was still a threat to SS2 Teen Gohan, so a weaker Adult Gohan would've been much more worried about Dabura than he was, if Dabura was close to Super Perfect Cell. 6. This is more of a bit of meta-reasoning: when the Gohan/Dabura fight first happened, way back in 1993, Super Saiyan 2 was still a new thing. The readers didn't know about SS3, and they also didn't know that Goku and Vegeta could go SS2 themselves. Using SS2 was still impressive enough that it got attention from the story. When Gohan goes SS2 at the tournament, it's pointed out and very dramatic. When Goku and Vegeta go SS2 against each other, it's pointed out and very dramatic. Looking back, we know that Goku could go SS2 by the time they faced Dabura. But when the manga was first being published, the readers didn't know that. When both Goku and Vegeta say they could handle Dabura, then... ...I think the reader is expected to think that they could handle him just as Super Saiyans. If you're like Salagir and think that Vegeta couldn't go SS2 until he went Majin (I don't), this reasoning is even more supported. Vegeta, knowing full well he couldn't go SS2, was still confident that he could take Dabura easily. Also notice that Goku doesn't disagree with him, and Goku doesn't even think Vegeta can go SS2! Therefore, Dabura was not SS2-tier, and instead around Perfect Cell. Probably a little weaker. |
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Post by TheAncientCenturion on Oct 14, 2016 19:42:52 GMT
I'll make a bold claim here, Mecha Frieza can beat Future Trunks. At least when they first arrived. That pretty boy got lucky and fought Frieza before he could unleash his fullest power.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 14, 2016 22:32:47 GMT
I'll make a bold claim here, Mecha Frieza can beat Future Trunks. At least when they first arrived. That pretty boy got lucky and fought Frieza before he could unleash his fullest power.
In a straight fight, maybe. We never did get a good read on Frieza's PL when he showed up on Earth. |
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 14, 2016 22:47:37 GMT
I'll make a bold claim here, Mecha Frieza can beat Future Trunks. At least when they first arrived. That pretty boy got lucky and fought Frieza before he could unleash his fullest power.
In a straight fight, maybe. We never did get a good read on Frieza's PL when he showed up on Earth. Also we don't know if being mostly machine holds him back, ki is part of life and there wasn't much left of Frieza. I feel Mecha Frieza was the same as when he first transformed to his fourth form and remember: until he went 100% he wasn't doing well against SS1Goku who had less experience than Trunks when it came to being a super saiyan mostly because F Gohan was training him to go SS while Goku accidentally discovered it. |
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Post by Jaquan on Oct 15, 2016 3:57:03 GMT
Interesting theory... There is one minor problem there... Pretty boy also one shoot Cold who according to crew was even stronger than Freeza in that state. If the win against Freeza was just a fluke than this second feat should be near impossible.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 15, 2016 4:17:24 GMT
Interesting theory... There is one minor problem there... Pretty boy also one shoot Cold who according to crew was even stronger than Freeza in that state. If the win against Freeza was just a fluke than this second feat should be near impossible. Not in manga... anime did. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 15, 2016 4:32:22 GMT
Not in manga... anime did.
I mean according to progress reports I received recently that work is paying off with my grades being in the high 90s so it's not all bad, but still  Don't forget to tell which is filler and which is canon! It'll be helpful for future debates "Oh so you still utilize progress reports?  "Tell me more about your exams." (Ironically I'm talking about one when I've got a midterm coming up and I'm still on DBM Forum. LOL!) |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 15, 2016 4:43:25 GMT
Don't forget to tell which is filler and which is canon! It'll be helpful for future debates "Oh so you still utilize progress reports? "Tell me more about your exams." (Ironically I'm talking about one when I've got a midterm coming up and I'm still on DBM Forum. LOL!) 1) You're welcome LOL!!! and B) Wish I had the motivation to make my own meme of that pic and change it to "10 weeks of hard work for good grades Only thing you were supposed to work on were the two midterms and one final that dictates your grades." |
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Post by Jaquan on Oct 15, 2016 5:03:23 GMT
That picture. It pissed me off so much that it made me remember I have a science project to work on. What the actual fuck xD? 1) You're welcome LOL!!! and B) Wish I had the motivation to make my own meme of that pic and change it to "10 weeks of hard work for good grades Only thing you were supposed to work on were the two midterms and one final that dictates your grades." Actually Tien in Manga stated that "there's someone with even greater Ki than him" when everyone sensed the arrival of Freeza. Or at least that's how it looked in translation I saw. Can't post the picture right now since I do it on Phone but it should be there... Nevermind... Checked the different scan and the line mentioned that there's just someone else there. May be translation error... Still to one shot someone is still quite a big feat. |
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