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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 15, 2016 5:08:15 GMT
1) You're welcome LOL!!! and B) Wish I had the motivation to make my own meme of that pic and change it to "10 weeks of hard work for good grades Only thing you were supposed to work on were the two midterms and one final that dictates your grades." Actually Tien in Manga stated that "there's someone with even greater Ki than him" when everyone sensed the arrival of Freeza. Or at least that's how it looked in translation I saw. Can't post the picture right now since I do it on Phone but it should be there. Dunno how to show youtube on the forum directly but here's a link when King Cold and Frieza arrives on Earth. Krillin says there's someone even more powerful around 1:50 Note: I know the anime, or DBZKai isn't as reliable as the one true source, the actual manga, so for now till proven likewise, this will do. Edit: Fixed Video format.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 15, 2016 13:42:34 GMT
Interesting theory... There is one minor problem there... Pretty boy also one shoot Cold who according to crew was even stronger than Freeza in that state. If the win against Freeza was just a fluke than this second feat should be near impossible. Wait someone canonically said that? _-_I remember the anime saying that they were about the same, I think. Trunks just doesn't play around, and didn't let Cold do anything with it. EDIT: Kakarotto answered this, manga never said it.
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Post by Kaio del Norte on Oct 16, 2016 18:25:32 GMT
Wait someone canonically said that? _-_ I remember the anime saying that they were about the same, I think. Trunks just doesn't play around, and didn't let Cold do anything with it. EDIT: Kakarotto answered this, manga never said it. Yes, Tenshinhan said it.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 16, 2016 18:30:48 GMT
I remember the anime saying that they were about the same, I think. Trunks just doesn't play around, and didn't let Cold do anything with it. EDIT: Kakarotto answered this, manga never said it. Yes, Tenshinhan said it. Don't mean to copy the meme but... Pics or it didn't happen. Or at least it would help validate it.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 16, 2016 18:36:31 GMT
Good memory! This is what I found:
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 16, 2016 19:01:57 GMT
So it's agreed? Trunks is strong enough to stop the two Frost demons? That if Mecha Frieza was able to beat Trunks in his first visit to E-arth (sorry, I had to) then it was a fluke for Trunks to beat his father, is now disproven?
SSJ F.Trunks > Cold 2nd form > Mecha Frieza?
Now question. Was Mecha Frieza weaker than Frieza 1%, 100%, or equal to his power before Namek's explosion?
So basically did Mecha Frieza lose any power.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 16, 2016 21:36:59 GMT
I think you guys overlooked that while Tien said Cold was stronger that later when the group gathered Gohan revealed to them that what they were sensing from Freeza wasn't Freeza's full power and that he can get stronger than what they were sensing. Just because Trunks killed Cold easily doesn't necessarily disprove had Freeza used his full power that he might have beaten Trunks.
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Post by Archon on Oct 17, 2016 2:07:35 GMT
Actually Tien in Manga stated that "there's someone with even greater Ki than him" when everyone sensed the arrival of Freeza. Or at least that's how it looked in translation I saw. Can't post the picture right now since I do it on Phone but it should be there. Dunno how to show youtube on the forum directly but here's a link when King Cold and Frieza arrives on Earth. Krillin says there's someone even more powerful around 1:50 Note: I know the anime, or DBZKai isn't as reliable as the one true source, the actual manga, so for now till proven likewise, this will do. There is a button just above the text box when you post a full reply (as in don't use Quick Reply) that has the black 'take' boards (Idk their real name) where they hold the thing in front of the camera and it says like scene 3 take 5 etc click that and copy paste video text into the URL then click insert video. Problem solved. Also the fact Vegeta instantly recognizes Frieza's power I would guess he was only as string as Final form before he hit 100% since he wasn't really around tonight 100% Frieza. (I'm aware he flew over to Frieza when he got revived but I think Vegeta was more in awe of Goku's super saiyan form)
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 17, 2016 4:13:34 GMT
Dunno how to show youtube on the forum directly but here's a link when King Cold and Frieza arrives on Earth. Krillin says there's someone even more powerful around 1:50 Note: I know the anime, or DBZKai isn't as reliable as the one true source, the actual manga, so for now till proven likewise, this will do. There is a button just above the text box when you post a full reply (as in don't use Quick Reply) that has the black 'take' boards (Idk their real name) where they hold the thing in front of the camera and it says like scene 3 take 5 etc click that and copy paste video text into the URL then click insert video. Problem solved. Also the fact Vegeta instantly recognizes Frieza's power I would guess he was only as string as Final form before he hit 100% since he wasn't really around tonight 100% Frieza. (I'm aware he flew over to Frieza when he got revived but I think Vegeta was more in awe of Goku's super saiyan form) Gotcha, thanks for the help! Shit I forgot about how Vegeta recognized Frieza (on Earth) in reference to the "last" time he saw Frieza. Great now that's gonna create more questions. Was 2nd form Cold => Mecha Frieza or not? Until we have the manga in front of our face, we're stuck on this one.
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Post by supernekomajin on Oct 28, 2016 23:32:44 GMT
I think he did mean 100% Frieza. Yes, he was awed by SSJ Goku's power, but Frieza wasn't far below him and there's no way he didn't feel a power that much greater than his own. Also, it makes sense for dramatic purposes. Trunks killing Frieza and Cold is supposed to show how badass he is, and by extension Goku and the Androids. It wouldn't really work if Mecha Frieza and King Cold were way weaker than Namek Frieza.
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Post by camillus on Nov 1, 2016 21:32:28 GMT
The last guy got it.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 8, 2016 4:16:11 GMT
This is a conversation from the Super Saiyan vs. Saiyan Tail thread that I figured would rapidly get that thread off-topic, so I'm pasting it here. But I can ask one about one case with decent understanding: Wb SS2 Trunks being on Par with SS3 Goku? Was his base increased that much thanks to Zenkais and training that he actually managed to make a SS2 form match a SS3 Tier? (Yes I said form for 2 and tier for 3. Thanks to that example, I don't even think tiers should be based solely on the form one could attain... oh wait, just like Salagir's PL chart about Vegito's SS1 >= Goku's SS3) And even then, that means his limit for his base form is actually higher than that of Goku's? Sorry, my friend. I don't have a good explanation for that one, because it doesn't make sense at all. -- Battle of Gods shows us that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God ki, so that his base is permanently way stronger than normal, and his Super Saiyan form is even stronger/even with the initial SSG form. (?) In other words, Goku's base is now stronger than his SS3 when he fought Beerus on King Kai's planet. -- Goku in base was able to wreck 4th form RoF Frieza, whose 1st form was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. -- Super Saiyan Blue is even stronger than base Goku (god ki absorbed) and SS1, SS2, and SS3 Goku (god ki absorbed), but it's not specified by how much. If the question was, "Could SS2 Trunks ever manage to be on par with Buu saga Goku?" I'd probably have a better answer for you. But the fact that Trunks, who never received god ki of any kind, is somehow able to be on par with SS3 Goku (god ki absorbed) when he's SS2, is pretty ludicrous. This implies Trunks could've easily killed 4th form RoF Freeza. Honestly, power Levels in Super generally follow Rule of Cool or what the plot needs. There should be no way Trunks can even phase Goku Black, yet he's giving SSR Black troubles a few times during the series. Since this isn't a Super thread, I'll use spoilers to say that This is saying nothing about the fact Trunks can even match Fused Zamasu in a beam struggle for any amount of time. I'll get to talking about DBZ transformations another time.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 8, 2016 4:28:52 GMT
This is a conversation from the Super Saiyan vs. Saiyan Tail thread that I figured would rapidly get that thread off-topic, so I'm pasting it here. But I can ask one about one case with decent understanding: Wb SS2 Trunks being on Par with SS3 Goku? Was his base increased that much thanks to Zenkais and training that he actually managed to make a SS2 form match a SS3 Tier? (Yes I said form for 2 and tier for 3. Thanks to that example, I don't even think tiers should be based solely on the form one could attain... oh wait, just like Salagir's PL chart about Vegito's SS1 >= Goku's SS3) And even then, that means his limit for his base form is actually higher than that of Goku's? Sorry, my friend. I don't have a good explanation for that one, because it doesn't make sense at all. -- Battle of Gods shows us that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God ki, so that his base is permanently way stronger than normal, and his Super Saiyan form is even stronger/even with the initial SSG form. (?) In other words, Goku's base is now stronger than his SS3 when he fought Beerus on King Kai's planet. -- Goku in base was able to wreck 4th form RoF Frieza, whose 1st form was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. -- Super Saiyan Blue is even stronger than base Goku (god ki absorbed) and SS1, SS2, and SS3 Goku (god ki absorbed), but it's not specified by how much. If the question was, " Could SS2 Trunks ever manage to be on par with Buu saga Goku?" I'd probably have a better answer for you. But the fact that Trunks, who never received god ki of any kind, is somehow able to be on par with SS3 Goku (god ki absorbed) when he's SS2, is pretty ludicrous. This implies Trunks could've easily killed 4th form RoF Freeza. Honestly, power Levels in Super generally follow Rule of Cool or what the plot needs. There should be no way Trunks can even phase Goku Black, yet he's giving SSR Black troubles a few times during the series. Since this isn't a Super thread, I'll use spoilers to say that This is saying nothing about the fact Trunks can even match Fused Zamasu in a beam struggle for any amount of time. I'll get to talking about DBZ transformations another time. Alright since Super literally took TFS's Vegeta words of wisdom to heart, I'll try my best to ignore the *messed up* inconsistencies in power levels. Gonna take your advice and backtrack to a better question: Can a SS2 like Trunks ever manage to be on par with a Buu Saga SS3 Goku?
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Post by Archon on Nov 8, 2016 7:25:52 GMT
This is a conversation from the Super Saiyan vs. Saiyan Tail thread that I figured would rapidly get that thread off-topic, so I'm pasting it here. Sorry, my friend. I don't have a good explanation for that one, because it doesn't make sense at all. -- Battle of Gods shows us that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God ki, so that his base is permanently way stronger than normal, and his Super Saiyan form is even stronger/even with the initial SSG form. (?) In other words, Goku's base is now stronger than his SS3 when he fought Beerus on King Kai's planet. -- Goku in base was able to wreck 4th form RoF Frieza, whose 1st form was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. -- Super Saiyan Blue is even stronger than base Goku (god ki absorbed) and SS1, SS2, and SS3 Goku (god ki absorbed), but it's not specified by how much. If the question was, " Could SS2 Trunks ever manage to be on par with Buu saga Goku?" I'd probably have a better answer for you. But the fact that Trunks, who never received god ki of any kind, is somehow able to be on par with SS3 Goku (god ki absorbed) when he's SS2, is pretty ludicrous. This implies Trunks could've easily killed 4th form RoF Freeza. Honestly, power Levels in Super generally follow Rule of Cool or what the plot needs. There should be no way Trunks can even phase Goku Black, yet he's giving SSR Black troubles a few times during the series. Since this isn't a Super thread, I'll use spoilers to say that This is saying nothing about the fact Trunks can even match Fused Zamasu in a beam struggle for any amount of time. I'll get to talking about DBZ transformations another time. Alright since Super literally took TFS's Vegeta words of wisdom to heart, I'll try my best to ignore the *messed up* inconsistencies in power levels. Gonna take your advice and backtrack to a better question: Can a SS2 like Trunks ever manage to be on par with a Buu Saga SS3 Goku? Yes in fact as of Super he clearly has surpassed SS3 Goku from Buu. I think what they MIGHT be using for Trunks is what they did for Vegeta in BoG where his anger pushed him beyond Goku for a short time. Except it's clear in his fight with Black and White in more recent episodes Trunks has somewhat absorbed God Ki from being around Goku/Vegeta/Beerus/Whis...actually Trunks DID fight SSB Vegeta even if it was just a test of strength. And if THIS is any indicator:
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Post by Griffith on Jun 7, 2017 5:55:27 GMT
<abbr title="Oct 8, 2016 3:45:41 GMT 9.5" class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1475864141000">Oct 8, 2016 3:45:41 GMT 9.5</abbr> Ashanark said: The Daizenshuu guides were made after Dragon Ball finished, and are a bit like an encyclopedia for the series. Though not made by Akira Toriyama, they did have his approval. Therefore, many people take what they find in the Daizenshuu as Dragon Ball law. However, there are many places where I think what the Daizenshuu says and what we actually see happen doesn't match up. Case in point: the Super Saiyan modifiers. According to the Daizenshuu, SS1 is a 50x multiplier over base. SS2 is double a Super Saiyan. SS3 is four times a SS2. I really do not like these numbers. The only one that seems reasonable to me is Super Saiyan 1 being a 50x increase. Both SS2 and SS3 feel entirely wrong, and I'll tell you why. DISCLAIMER: I don't like using numbers to determine power levels. It gets ridiculous. I instead prefer relative power levels--comparing somebody to somebody else. To see how strong Super Saiyan 2 is, let's look at the Cell Saga: --Original SS Goku < Android 18 < Android 16 << Semi-Perfect Cell << Ascended Vegeta << Perfect Cell << Perfect Cell at max << SS2 Gohan. There's no way that's only a double increase in power from beginning to end. Now let's look at Buu saga: --SS2 Teen Gohan < SS2 Goku/Vegeta << Kid Buu/SS3 Goku. Gohan, as a SS2, could 1-shot a Cell Junior. Each Cell Jr. was as strong as Perfect Cell was when he fought Goku. So Goku at max ~ Perfect Cell = Cell Junior. And Gohan could 1-hit kill them. Goku, as a SS3, was about equal to Kid Buu. Kid Buu could beat the everliving crud out of SS2 Vegeta, but couldn't one-shot him. Despite Buu's efforts, Vegeta survived. The point I'm trying to make here is that SS3 can't be a larger modifier than SS2, because the gap between original SS2 and SS3 is nowhere near as big as the gap between original SS1 and SS2. To me, the Law of Diminishing Returns hits SS3 very hard. So: SS1 is a larger modifier than SS2, which is a larger modifier than SS3. SS3 can be a 4x modifier, but only if SS2 is a comparatively larger jump, like X10 or something. I really see no reason for SSJ2 to be a 10x increase in power. In fact I'd argue that's too large of an increase in power for what is consistently shown in the series. Comparing the tiers of strength of SSJ2 based on the tiers of power in the Cell Saga is one that makes me scratch my head. The characters themselves had to train, and surpass their very limits to actually reach the tiers of power they did in Dragon Ball. If SSJ Goku on Namek turned Super Saiyan 2 he would be effortlessly one shot by Semi Perfect Cell. And it was also implied that Gohan was stronger than Goku was at his max. And I take particular issue with the idea that Kid Buu was incapable of one shooting SSJ2 Vegeta. Kid Buu was holding back against him, just like he did when he pounded Vegeta, (and took his sweat merry time as well) when he was in his base form. But, SSJ3 can totally function at a larger multiplier than SSJ2. In fact I'd argue that it's multiple is far higher, double the strength of SSJ2. In fact, I'd actually argue SSJ has no business being a 50x boost in power if we go by the Daizenshuu Power Levels. Seriously, Goku and Freeza were near equals on Namek.
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Post by Ashanark on Jun 7, 2017 14:48:00 GMT
<abbr title="Oct 8, 2016 3:45:41 GMT 9.5" class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1475864141000">Oct 8, 2016 3:45:41 GMT 9.5</abbr> Ashanark said: The Daizenshuu guides were made after Dragon Ball finished, and are a bit like an encyclopedia for the series. Though not made by Akira Toriyama, they did have his approval. Therefore, many people take what they find in the Daizenshuu as Dragon Ball law. However, there are many places where I think what the Daizenshuu says and what we actually see happen doesn't match up. Case in point: the Super Saiyan modifiers. According to the Daizenshuu, SS1 is a 50x multiplier over base. SS2 is double a Super Saiyan. SS3 is four times a SS2. I really do not like these numbers. The only one that seems reasonable to me is Super Saiyan 1 being a 50x increase. Both SS2 and SS3 feel entirely wrong, and I'll tell you why. DISCLAIMER: I don't like using numbers to determine power levels. It gets ridiculous. I instead prefer relative power levels--comparing somebody to somebody else. To see how strong Super Saiyan 2 is, let's look at the Cell Saga: --Original SS Goku < Android 18 < Android 16 << Semi-Perfect Cell << Ascended Vegeta << Perfect Cell << Perfect Cell at max << SS2 Gohan. There's no way that's only a double increase in power from beginning to end. Now let's look at Buu saga: --SS2 Teen Gohan < SS2 Goku/Vegeta << Kid Buu/SS3 Goku. Gohan, as a SS2, could 1-shot a Cell Junior. Each Cell Jr. was as strong as Perfect Cell was when he fought Goku. So Goku at max ~ Perfect Cell = Cell Junior. And Gohan could 1-hit kill them. Goku, as a SS3, was about equal to Kid Buu. Kid Buu could beat the everliving crud out of SS2 Vegeta, but couldn't one-shot him. Despite Buu's efforts, Vegeta survived. The point I'm trying to make here is that SS3 can't be a larger modifier than SS2, because the gap between original SS2 and SS3 is nowhere near as big as the gap between original SS1 and SS2. To me, the Law of Diminishing Returns hits SS3 very hard. So: SS1 is a larger modifier than SS2, which is a larger modifier than SS3. SS3 can be a 4x modifier, but only if SS2 is a comparatively larger jump, like X10 or something. I really see no reason for SSJ2 to be a 10x increase in power. In fact I'd argue that's too large of an increase in power for what is consistently shown in the series. Comparing the tiers of strength of SSJ2 based on the tiers of power in the Cell Saga is one that makes me scratch my head. The characters themselves had to train, and surpass their very limits to actually reach the tiers of power they did in Dragon Ball. If SSJ Goku on Namek turned Super Saiyan 2 he would be effortlessly one shot by Semi Perfect Cell. And it was also implied that Gohan was stronger than Goku was at his max. And I take particular issue with the idea that Kid Buu was incapable of one shooting SSJ2 Vegeta. Kid Buu was holding back against him, just like he did when he pounded Vegeta, (and took his sweat merry time as well) when he was in his base form. But, SSJ3 can totally function at a larger multiplier than SSJ2. In fact I'd argue that it's multiple is far higher, double the strength of SSJ2. In fact, I'd actually argue SSJ has no business being a 50x boost in power if we go by the Daizenshuu Power Levels. Seriously, Goku and Freeza were near equals on Namek. First off, I do not like using multipliers at all for transformations. I don't think Toriyama thought that way when he wrote DB, and I don't think it's reflected in-story. I believe it's more accurate to say that transformations move you a tier. So I would agree SS2 is not a x10 multiplier--I think it's just bumping you up a tier. A very big tier. I also agree that Gohan was stronger than Goku was, even before he unlocked SS2. My problem with the Daizenshuu numbers is that we have no idea of the reasoning behind their numbers. Why'd they decide on the PLs for late Namek saga that they did? Why'd they pick the multipliers they did for the Super Saiyan states? We have none of their thought process. To me, saying Toriyama "approved" something does not mean Daizenshuu = law. Toriyama, ironically, does not seem to care all that much about Dragon Ball and I believe if we were to put a paper in front of him that says "Saiyans are actually sentient bananas," he'd approve it. So my approach is, what does the manga say about these things? What does the manga indicate? That was definitely made by Toriyama--not Toei, not some random dude. My arguments aren't exactly " this is the way things are," and more "Daizenshuu is not the way things are." Goku vs. Frieza First off, I disagree with the Daizenshuu's 120,000/150,000 numbers. We have no hard estimate from the manga at what percent of his power Frieza fought Goku at first. We just know Kaiokenx20 Goku < 50% Frieza; enough to land a hit and require him to exert effort, but not enough to fight evenly. Super Saiyan Goku, however, was even with max Frieza. The way I interpret the fight, Frieza was at least on par with Goku (maybe even a little bit stronger) but so untrained that he got fatigued quickly, to the point that Goku could run circles around him. So if SS Goku ~ 100% Frieza, then SS Goku > Kaioken x40. I think SS Goku was about 50 times stronger than he was untransformed. I DO NOT think that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier! I imagine it being a +100,000,000 boost or something. I also think that all the Daizenshuu's numbers about Namek PLs are unsupported by the manga. SS2 vs. SS3 Again, I look at this in terms of comparisons. Who can hurt who, and how much? Gohan could one-shot Cell Jrs. with absolutely no effort. Cell said each Junior was as strong as him--since he was still holding back his power at this point, "as strong as me" means "as strong as I was against Goku." That means each of them could fight evenly with a fresh MSS Goku and keep him on his toes. We never saw this happen because Goku was not fresh against his Cell Jr., but in theory it means that a Goku vs. Cell Jr. fight would've been the same intensity as Goku vs. Cell. If SS2 Gohan could one-shot a Cell Jr. without any effort, then he could've one-shot Goku, and all the other Z-Fighters. I bring up this situation since it's fairly similar to Kid Buu. We have a master of the latest level of Super Saiyan (Vegeta), a guy who's in a new form he still probably hasn't mastered (Goku), and a villain. Kid Buu is about even with Goku. However, if you feel Kid Buu "wasn't even trying" against Vegeta, then I'd argue he "wasn't even trying" against Goku, too: "That little punk's having fun!" I don't think Kid Buu is the sort of creature to ever hold back, period, but if he was goofing off against Goku, why would he goof off less against Vegeta? Kid Buu beat the crap out of Vegeta, but still he lived. This is very different from SS2 Gohan utterly mangling Cell Jrs. when he wasn't even trying. SS2 Gohan could oneshot Cell Juniors, who were about equal to MSS Goku. Kid Buu (~ SS3 Goku) could not oneshot SS2 Vegeta. To me, the gap between MSS and SS2 is bigger than the gap between SS2 and SS3. The manga itself seems to contradict the Daizenshuu's statement that SS3 is a bigger increase than SS2 was.
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Post by Griffith on Jun 7, 2017 22:41:21 GMT
Goku vs. Frieza First off, I disagree with the Daizenshuu's 120,000/150,000 numbers. We have no hard estimate from the manga at what percent of his power Frieza fought Goku at first. We just know Kaiokenx20 Goku < 50% Frieza; enough to land a hit and require him to exert effort, but not enough to fight evenly. Super Saiyan Goku, however, was even with max Frieza. The way I interpret the fight, Frieza was at least on par with Goku (maybe even a little bit stronger) but so untrained that he got fatigued quickly, to the point that Goku could run circles around him. So if SS Goku ~ 100% Frieza, then SS Goku > Kaioken x40. I think SS Goku was about 50 times stronger than he was untransformed. I DO NOT think that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier! I imagine it being a +100,000,000 boost or something. I also think that all the Daizenshuu's numbers about Namek PLs are unsupported by the manga. SS2 vs. SS3 Again, I look at this in terms of comparisons. Who can hurt who, and how much? Gohan could one-shot Cell Jrs. with absolutely no effort. Cell said each Junior was as strong as him--since he was still holding back his power at this point, "as strong as me" means "as strong as I was against Goku." That means each of them could fight evenly with a fresh MSS Goku and keep him on his toes. We never saw this happen because Goku was not fresh against his Cell Jr., but in theory it means that a Goku vs. Cell Jr. fight would've been the same intensity as Goku vs. Cell. If SS2 Gohan could one-shot a Cell Jr. without any effort, then he could've one-shot Goku, and all the other Z-Fighters. I bring up this situation since it's fairly similar to Kid Buu. We have a master of the latest level of Super Saiyan (Vegeta), a guy who's in a new form he still probably hasn't mastered (Goku), and a villain. Kid Buu is about even with Goku. However, if you feel Kid Buu "wasn't even trying" against Vegeta, then I'd argue he "wasn't even trying" against Goku, too: "That little punk's having fun!" I don't think Kid Buu is the sort of creature to ever hold back, period, but if he was goofing off against Goku, why would he goof off less against Vegeta? Kid Buu beat the crap out of Vegeta, but still he lived. This is very different from SS2 Gohan utterly mangling Cell Jrs. when he wasn't even trying. SS2 Gohan could oneshot Cell Juniors, who were about equal to MSS Goku. Kid Buu (~ SS3 Goku) could not oneshot SS2 Vegeta. To me, the gap between MSS and SS2 is bigger than the gap between SS2 and SS3. The manga itself seems to contradict the Daizenshuu's statement that SS3 is a bigger increase than SS2 was. But Super Saiyan is still multiplying your strength so that you can reach that tier of power. Super Saiyan is clearly stronger than Kaio Ken x 20, if we're going to discuss the multipliers of the transformation than it's best if we discuss the multipliers of the transformation. In fact I'd actually argue that regular old SSJ is higher than a 50x increase in power. Considering how a Kaio Ken x 20 blast couldn't even scratch regular old 50% Freeza. But, then how would Kaio Ken work? Is it a +100 every time Goku uses it, with Kaio Ken x 20 being a + 2000? The simple matter is that it's easiest to just assume Super Saiyan multiples your power like every other transformation before it. The Cell Jr's were never once stated to be as strong as Cell himself, at best all we got was a Cell Jr fighting equally with Vegeta and Trunks, and a statement from Cell about them being his children: They've never once done anything to justify them being as strong as Goku. In fact they would be far, far weaker than Goku, and Gohan is when they're both as Super Saiyans. Which leads credence to the fact Gohan can effortlessly one shot all of them as a SSJ2. And we have seen them battle against a Fresh Vegeta, who managed to hold his own against one of them. Yeah, I'd also argue he wasn't trying against Goku as well. And Buu has outright shown he can hold back, like that time when he pummeled base form Vegeta without him dying in a single hit:
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Post by Ashanark on Jun 8, 2017 0:16:25 GMT
But Super Saiyan is still multiplying your strength so that you can reach that tier of power. Find me a page from the manga that says Super Saiyan is a multiplier. I never once said Kaiokenx20 is stronger than Super Saiyan, so I'm not sure where you got that from. Since the manga does not GIVE multipliers for Super Saiyan--or, in fact, say that it's a multiplier at all--the only measuring stick we have is how Kaiokenx20 did against 50% Frieza, and how SS did against 100% Frieza. So yes, Kaiokenx20 is definitely relevant to this discussion. Really? Just earlier today you said... In fact, I'd actually argue SSJ has no business being a 50x boost in power if we go by the Daizenshuu Power Levels. Seriously, Goku and Freeza were near equals on Namek. Daizenshuu says Frieza was 120,000 and SS Goku was 150,000. So when you say "Goku and Freeza were near equals on Namek," you must've meant the Daizenshuu's estimates for the Super Saiyan modifier were too high. Now you're saying they're too low. In the space of eight hours, did you change your mind? :/ (And you couldn't have meant Freeza must be stronger than the Daizenshuu indicates, since you specifically indicated "SSJ has no business being a 50x boost," not "Freeza is stronger than the Daizenshuu said he is.") I said I don't think Super Saiyan is a multiplier. I never said Kaioken wasn't. From the very beginning, that is literally what the Kaioken did. If it's got x3, x4, x10, x20 in its name, then it seems to be a power multiplier. However, Kaioken was also portrayed as increasingly hard to maintain, with progressively greater costs on the body; Super Saiyan never had such limits. I don't think Super Saiyan is just a glorified Kaioken. Another problem with multipliers is this: Goku: PL of 3 million. Baby Goten: PL of, say, 10. Turtle: PL of .01. If Goku transforms and suddenly gets 50 times stronger, he can take Frieza. If Baby Goten transforms, he can still be crushed by beginning-of-Z Goku. If Turtle transforms, he actually gets weaker. Multipliers also mean you get exponentially higher numbers the stronger you are. 3 mil x 50 = a difference of 147 million. 100 million x 50 = a difference of almost 5 billion. By this logic, the stronger of a Saiyan you are, the stronger your Super Saiyan is...whereas if anything, in DBZ it seems to be the exact opposite: the Law of Diminishing Returns hits the Super Saiyans really hard. vs. Frieza Goku was about a million times stronger than beginning-of-Z Goku. MSS Goku would be immune to damage from initial SS Goku. SS2s can still damage SS3-tier opponents. The gaps within levels and their forms get increasingly smaller as time goes by, which leads me to... But...they do. Super Vegeta got effortlessly pummeled by initial Perfect Cell. Super Vegeta, at Cell Games, thought he could beat the Perfect Cell he fought. When Goku and Cell powered up, Vegeta didn't think he could beat Cell anymore. Cell says Vegeta and Trunks are "holding their own" against the Cell Jrs. " Holding their own." Not "fighting evenly," not "they're going to win in the long run," but " they're holding their own." Vegeta can't believe how strong the Cell Jrs. are, which implies he thinks he's outclassed and he's just holding on. Also, look at the situation--it would throw a wrench in Cell's plans to make Gohan mad if Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks had a chance of surviving, wouldn't it? He'd have to make Juniors stronger than they were just to be sure. The Cell Jrs. are definitely stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, and it makes sense in-context for them to be a match for Goku at his best. Either way, if Gohan can oneshot a Cell Jr. he can definitely do it to Vegeta, and Vegeta couldn't even scratch Super Perfect Cell...in contrast to SS2 Vegeta vs. the Buus. First off, I dismiss that moment as Toriyama not knowing what he's doing. In-context, why would a Vegeta without a single scratch on him fight Buu in base, instead of at least Super Saiyan? The moment makes no sense. Secondly, your argument is "Because Kid Buu punched base Vegeta and he didn't die, he must've similarly been holding back against SS2 Vegeta as well." But for all we know, Vegeta's base is SS2-tier and can tank hits like that. Or his SS2 is as weak as his base. I dunno. Majin Vegeta was able to beat around Fat Buu...until Fat Buu got mad. SS3 Goku was able to beat around Fat Buu...until Fat Buu got mad, at which point they were more even. Goku seemed about even with Kid Buu, but SS2 Vegeta stood no chance. Neither Fat Buu or Kid Buu actually killed Vegeta. They beat him to a pulp, but they never just casually karate-chopped him to instant death. If neither Fat Buu or Kid Buu could, then it stands to reason SS3 Goku couldn't either. Your argument relies upon Fat Buu and Kid Buu, who have no reason to spare Vegeta's life or play nice (the former expressly getting mad at Vegeta and wanting to kill him), deciding to power-down to make things more interesting. I read the situation as the gap between SS3 and SS2 being smaller than the gap between SS2 and SS1, with a healthy dose of "Vegeta can really take a hit." Super Vegeta can only bump Super Perfect Cell, who's likely weaker than SS2 Gohan. Vegeta caused absolutely no harm to Cell, just a surprise. But SS2 Vegeta can damage SS3-tier people. The gap between SS2 and SS3 is smaller than the gap between SS1 and SS2. If Super Saiyan states are multipliers (and I believe they aren't,) SS3 is not a bigger multiplier than SS2.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Jun 9, 2017 10:52:28 GMT
Am i the only one that thinks that power levels aren't bullshit, but multipliers are? To say that the might of Super Saiyan is reduced to a mere multiplier of power cheapens it i think.
Also after reading through some older chapters i saw how blasie Vegeta and Goku were when seeing Cell powerup against Bojack. Like we're clearly talking about a SS3 tier character and Vegeta and Goku are like: "Yeah, he got stronger...as we knew he would."
So based off that i reckon Vegeta will outclass Cell in terms of power (And how glorious will that be) an Goku, while giving Uub a good match will also outclass him significantly.
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Post by Andres on Jun 13, 2017 18:01:51 GMT
Goku: PL of 3 million. Baby Goten: PL of, say, 10. Turtle: PL of .01. If Goku transforms and suddenly gets 50 times stronger, he can take Frieza. If Baby Goten transforms, he can still be crushed by beginning-of-Z Goku. If Turtle transforms, he actually gets weaker.
What? 0,01 x 50 = 0,50 How did he get weaker? He got 50 times stronger!
Other than that, I agree. I never really liked the Super Saiyan transformations to be multipliers. And if they are, the gap between them is definitely higher than a mere 2x and 4x multiplication. To simplify, if Toriyama tells me "YES, THEY ARE MULTIPLIERS, but how do you feel the multipliers are?" I'd say it's around x50 for Super Saiyan, x10 or x20 for Super Saiyan 2 and x10 or x8 for Super Saiyan 3. If the SSj2 transformation is only twice as strong as a Super Saiyan, the two Ascended Saiyans transformations (and power boosts) simply cannot exist.
That being said, I don't adhere strictly to a multiplier strictly. I'm talking merely about the power boost and the power gaps between transformations.
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