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Post by Ashanark on Aug 7, 2017 5:45:02 GMT
I willingly concede that Toriyama consciously thought in multipliers. I've heard about that "Super Saiyan should really only be x10" thing before but bringing it up makes it pretty clear Toriyama is a multipliers man. However, I'll argue that what we actually see in the manga doesn't reflect multipliers, for reasons I'll list in a moment. Interestingly, about this very same Toriyama quote...If you've got a minute or two, the whole reason I'm a "SS is not a multiplier" person comes from these two posts on page 802 of DBM, by 3DMaster and Tiencha: And in response, the user Tiencha added this:
My number one objective and endless crusade is to disprove the notion that Daizenshuu numbers = law. As we see, even things Toriyama made himself are forgotten or ignored, sometimes within months or even weeks of him saying them. Why should numbers he never made but instead "approved" be held as irrefutable? For all we know he never even looked at them, let alone incorporated them into the story. They're educated guesses at best by glorified commentators, hardly "canon." So, with my argument being " Daizenshuu is wrong" first and then "transformations are additions" second, here's a summary of my reasons: 1) Instead of getting exponentially stronger throughout the series, the Saiyans get hit with diminishing returns pretty hard. This implies additions of strength instead of multipliers. (If Super Saiyan is +150 million...well, if your base is at 3 mil, then you're getting 50x stronger. If you're at 150 mil, you're only twice as strong. At 400 mil, it's only a piddling amount. Diminishing returns.) -- The flaw with this argument is that it's running on logic, something Toriyama rarely applied to Dragon Ball. 2) Goku's base is around Yakon's level; his Super Saiyan state, however, is not even 4x stronger, let alone 50x. This implies the Daizenshuu's number is wrong, OR that Super Saiyan is an addition of power. -- The argument must be made that Goku is not holding back when transformed. I believe Goku wasn't, because it was necessary for him to go SS2 to finish Yakon. Going by the Daizenshuu's numbers, he still could've gotten 13x stronger! Surely that would've been enough to kill Yakon from raw aura. 3) It seems heavily implied the "trained" Super Saiyan forms--Vegeta's ascended form, Goku and Gohan's mastered forms--are an improvement upon Super Saiyan itself, not just the result of of their base getting stronger through a new kind of training. (The level of power the Saiyans achieved defied all expectation, beyond what people would've expected from a regular Super Saiyan; this would not have been the case had the Super Saiyan itself not improved.) Therefore, their "multiplier" is greater than 50x, or, if an addition, greater than the boost Super Saiyan originally gave. 4) Playing off the idea of Diminishing Returns introduced in #1, Goten and Trunk's strength can be explained as the Super Saiyan state granting such a large boost of power it automatically makes them a threat, regardless of their weakness in base. This can happen in an additive PL system, but not in a Daizenshuu model. -- However, the argument can be made that Goten and Trunks are simply that strong. Lame, but a viable explanation. 5) In-manga, Toriyama basically dropped all hard indicators of multipliers by the time Super Saiyan was introduced, implying he thought of it differently than he did Kaioken, or was changing the rules of his universe. This could be construed as him moving from multipliers to additions, or tiers. -- Toriyama never cared about consistency anyway, especially in his PLs. There's also the separate argument that the Daizenshuu's numbers for SS2 and SS3 make no darn sense simply for the reason that they put SS3 as a bigger jump than SS2. Attaching numbers is meaningless, but I feel Toriyama actually wrote Dragon Ball in terms of "tiers," as Salagir does. Tiers require PLs to be very close together, which either requires minimal gains in base for the multipliers to add up...or else an additive system.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 9, 2017 22:27:51 GMT
Ashanark Oh I agree, I'm not saying that the Daizhenshuu is law...I was just arguing that Super Saiyan had to be a multiplier. Whether it's actually Daizenshuu's 50x or the makes-no-sense 10x was irrelevant. For all I know it's 30x. Point being, it's my own personal belief that Toriyama used numbers and multipliers so he would have a good grasp of where people were at in a general sense. We know how forgetful he is. Power levels were probably a thing he introduced as a point of reference. To use my own fictional example: AT: "Okay! New story arc, time for everyone to get more powerful. How strong was that Raditz fella again? Oh yes, he was at 1,500. So I think I'll about double that for Nappa...and then for Vegeta I'll do this...but Goku has to catch up with them so I'll give him this multiplier technique..." So on and so forth. He probably abandoned them for the more vague tier system after Frieza because the numbers were starting to get too high and he didn't want to bother with the math at that point. Which, given that he invented SS1 partially to get out of inking all the hair black, I find a plausible excuse. That didn't stop him from bringing them back for RoF momentarily though, ugh... -- The flaw with this argument is that it's running on logic, something Toriyama rarely applied to Dragon Ball. Ultimately I feel this is the best counter-argument for any valid points we could make. We're relying on logic. Toriyama rarely does.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 10, 2017 1:08:01 GMT
Multipliers are easier to use as a reference for how much stronger someone is compared to someone else. If you have a character proclaim they are twice as strong as they were for it gives the reader some idea on much they improved. The thing with Dragon Ball was the creator used a number system, likely because he thought it was a cool system that had the benefit of giving us the audience a glimpse of how strong our characters are.
300 ranges we got from Goku and Piccolo the two previously established strongest in the world seems even more impressive, since we saw what they could do in the arc before. When someone like Raditz comes and says those powers are pathetic and his is at least over 1,000 we all lose our minds and have this crazy idea at how strong someone like Raditz is and how effortlessly he beats Goku and his archenemy so easily. It even helped establish how much power Gohan is packing, which can reach levels higher than his dad or Piccolo. It is a cool concept you don't think much of and when you find out from Raditz that he is not only the weakest in the group of Saiyans, but the other two are so far above him it creates this picture for just how insanely powerful the next enemies are. Its a cool concept, but it requires a lot of work put into maintaining that system and careful planning to keep it reasonable. Toriyama just isn't that type of writer unfortunately.
He went overboard with the numbers. It was still manageable when the fight with the Ginyu Force happened, but once he established Freeza was 530,000 at his weakest form and that Freeza's next form was over a million it was over. Coupple that with Kaioken being a clear multiplier that could go as far as 20 made numbers race to the hundred millions close to the billions range. The numbers became problematic and why they were ditched. The damage was already done. Kaioken went too far and use of multipliers put things too high. Power levels a cool concept that served its purpose, but got out of control because there was no thought put into maintaining it. That's why in the end it is pointless to argue how strong transformations are or try to look for consistency. It is just easier to say Super Saiyan transformation increases a Saiyan's power. Broad terms are better used than trying to debate if Toriyama using addition or multipliers.
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Post by Azoth on Sept 29, 2017 0:19:02 GMT
Not sure where else to put this, so here. Plague gripes about power levels.
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Post by Azoth on Nov 30, 2017 13:17:38 GMT
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 30, 2017 18:47:18 GMT
This is a good read. At least this explanation to become a super saiyan is far more better compared to Super's stupid back tingles attempt. S-Cells is the step in the right direction, but I still believe that Npberryhill's explanation is still superior. And this saiyan, Yamoshi, was the very first super saiyan and super saiyan god in universe 7. He died trying to defeat some evil saiyans on Planet Vegeta apparently, yet is also the same dude who died destroying planet Saiya. This is strange to me, but weird retcons such as these are common in Dragon Ball unfortunately. At the very least he appears like Vegeta, so that a plus in my books. Hopefully a side-story based on his life will make a debut. A saiyan of his stature must have his story told, and to see if he also possesses either Legendary Super Saiyan or the Golden Great Ape form.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 30, 2017 20:55:04 GMT
Nah, on the whole it's not that bad of an explanation. Could've been a lot worse. It also implies that the "back tingles" thing was either a Toei/Toyotaro idea, since these S-Cells still need an emotional trigger (which Caulifla didn't.) Regardless of whether or not I approve of many of Toriyama's after-the-fact "clarifications," it seems he's put a decent amount of thought into most of them--or at least can improvise pretty complex things on the fly. (I only wish he put that much thought into things when he was actually writing the story.) Just look at his explanation of the three types of ki, for example. However, on the whole his post-year 2000 comments seem less like grand revelations about long-asked questions and more like over-complications of what were previously simple explanations. Examples that come to mind are Babidi's origin, where the Kaioshin come from, and now this latest revelation about S-Cells and the original Super Saiyan God. I say "over-complication" because nowhere was any of this stuff hinted at before, it often requires us to ignore or retweak previous explanations, and many have big Fridge Logic problems. It's likely Toriyama's come up with it long after the fact and not paid attention to detail. For example, during the original Battle of Gods and even the DBS retelling, there was not even a hint that the God ritual was infusing a Saiyan with Yamoshi's soul. It was just an inexplicable powerup. But this retcon brings up other questions: if Vegeta has god ki, does that mean Yamoshi is inhabiting both Goku and Vegeta? Can Yamoshi give people god ki without a ritual? If so, why is there a ritual in the first place? Where did Yamoshi get his god ki from? As convoluted and inexplicable as the SSG ritual was, a simple "5 good saiyans can give another god ki" is less strange than "5 good Saiyans can make Yamoshi, who has god ki, possess another Saiyan temporarily, and Yamoshi somehow got god ki by dying." Also, Toriyama's explanation is saying that the original Super Saiyan God was not actually a Super Saiyan God, but a Super Saiyan--he never once achieved SSG during his lifetime, but gives it to others. That's a contradiction with both BoG and DBS's version of the story. Also, how the heck would any number of regular Saiyans wear down and defeat a Super Saiyan? That's like saying the Saiyans could've beaten Frieza if there were only enough of them to Zerg Rush him :/ As for the S-Cells thing... For one thing, it confirms what many fans have argued all along: high enough base power + emotional trigger = Super Saiyan. On the other hand, it makes two problems: first is similar to why people didn't like midichlorians, which is it de-mystifies something that was once mystical. Second is because it yet again retcons Goku further into being a Chosen One. I liked the idea that Goku was a Super Saiyan because he was good; his power level was ultimately of secondary importance. Toriyama's explanation is that Goku was always going to be the Super Saiyan because he had more midichlorians than Vegeta. It's similar to Dr. Wheelo's complaint with DBM Hanasia: Goku was supposed to be low-class trash, but DBM means that with two powerful parents, Goku was always destined to be more powerful than Vegeta, which subverts the whole message of "scrappy underdog beating privileged elite" which was their first battle. Link is broken EDIT: So I'm assuming you're talking about the "Super Saiyan is unrealized potential, and Oozaru draws on that potential but is an incomplete/not-as-spiritual transformation?" By the way I like a lot of npberryhill's explanations, period.
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 30, 2017 20:57:44 GMT
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Post by Azoth on Nov 30, 2017 21:51:10 GMT
Tori's explanation bothers me mostly because DB never addresses ki or how it works in the body all that much, and he had all of eastern philosophy and martial arts to draw on. It tried to do that with Caulifla and the U6 saiyans (the stuff I've been able to find says that ki would flow through the spine and different segments of the spine represented different things,) but didn't do it well.
That Bringer of Death chapter is interesting, though. It seems to be doing exactly what I'd want this SSJ explanation to do.
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Post by supergojita3 on Dec 7, 2017 16:58:38 GMT
Not a fan of fanfics, unless they are mangas. Dragon ball was always a manga oriented thing, and had one novel which was ill recieved if I recall correctly, and it had plot holes if I recall. I don't remember.
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Post by augustus123 on Jul 7, 2019 5:56:45 GMT
Common topics of discussion: 1. Arrange Buu's forms in order of power. While you're at it, is Super Buu stronger, or Kid Buu? (I say Super Buu.) 2. Is Dabura as strong as regular Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell? Was Gohan SS1 or SS2 fighting him? (I say normal Perfect Cell, and SS1) 3. Is SS3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan? (I say Mystic Gohan's stronger.) 4. Which movie villain would beat who in a fight? 5. The Daizenshuu's power levels. 1. Fat Buu/ Mr.Buu (I see no reason to think they have different powers)<Evil Buu<Kid Buu<Super Buu<Piccolo Buu<Gotenks Buu<Gohan Buu
2. Somewhere in the middle, closer to Super, I think Gohan was SSJ2 because why not?
3. Mystic is stronger, but I think SSJ3 Goku can get stronger.
4. Jenemba>Hiredegarn>Broly Second Coming>Bojack>Broly First Time>Biobroly>Super 13>Meta Cooler>Cooler>Lord Slug>Turles>Dr. Wheelo robot>Garlic Jr.
5. Silly, and I agree their multipliers are silly. 50x for a basic SSJ is good, but with ASSJ Vegeta laughed when Goku said if he had tripled his strength.
these are my multipliers:
SSJ: 50x
ASSJ: 150x (triple plus an increase in base for Vegeta)
USSJ: 250x
FPSSJ: 500x
SSJ2: 2,500x
FPSSJ2 (I am assuming it exists): 5,000x
SSJ3: 25,000x
FPSSJ3 (I am assuming it exists) : 50,000x
I know this is an old thread, but here are my answers.
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Post by obi1wajz on Jan 14, 2021 12:45:45 GMT
Here it is, a place to go crazy with your power level lists and debate who's stronger than who. Modifiers, numbers, whatever you want! You get bonus points if you can use the manga to back up your argument. Common topics of discussion: 1. Arrange Buu's forms in order of power. While you're at it, is Super Buu stronger, or Kid Buu? (I say Super Buu.) 2. Is Dabura as strong as regular Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell? Was Gohan SS1 or SS2 fighting him? (I say normal Perfect Cell, and SS1) 3. Is SS3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan? (I say Mystic Gohan's stronger.) 4. Which movie villain would beat who in a fight? 5. The Daizenshuu's power levels. 1.manga:Buuhan > Buutenks > Buuccolo > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu > Evil Buu > Mr. Buu anime:Kid Buu > Buuhan > Buutenks > Buuccolo > Super Buu > Fat Buu > Evil Buu > Mr. Buu 2.Gohan was SSJ2, Dabura > Super Perfect Cell 3.manga:Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku anime:Goku SSJ3(vs Kid Buu) > Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku(vs Fat Buu) 4.Broly(movie 10) > Janemba > Hirudegarn > Hatchiyack > Broly(movie 9) > everyone else 5.SSJ - 50x ASSJ - 100x USSJ - 1000x SSJ2 - 4500x SSJ2 Gohan at bellow half Power = 45 > Super Perfect Cell = 40 > "Grade 4" Cell = 38 > Grade 3 Cell = 26 > Grade 2 Cell = 2.6 > Perfect Cell = 1.3 > SSJ Gohan = 1 SSJ3 - 18 000x Self Destruction should be above the Special Beam Cannon(~3.5) or at least the kamehameha(~2.2) so a range of 2.5-4+x in multiplier SSJ3 Goku = 4 > Fat Buu ~ Majin Vegeta Self Destruction = 3 > Majin Vegeta ~ SSJ2 Goku = 1
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Post by squirz96 on Jan 14, 2021 18:06:55 GMT
Oh the old thread was revived. Power Levels are Crap. To be honest, power levels where not crap, however their introduction was bad. I belive introduction of power levels via Raditz reading farmers power level was meant to specialize that Z fighters have unique ability which is not shared amongst all Ki users. That ability is sensing energy.
In a way I agree with Daizenshu's guide but beyond Freeza saga it has no meaning. Dragon Ball was never meant to be mathematically correct show. Ki output has no value and it is not linear. For example according to "official" sources Goku at the start of the series had power level of 10. Twice as much as average human, yet he could dodge bullets, lift cars, etc. How much destruction capacity you could have with power level of 1 trillion? Who knows, since there is no definately guide to power levels.
About SSJ multipliers. I agree with official guides for them. Some of you I saw saying that SSJ2 is beyond 1k times that of a base. I don't see support of that. Gohan as SSJ was already more powerful than Cell. He would have crushed him if multiplier was that high. Here, I will try to conclude differences in Ki outputs between Person A and Person B and results in fight. I would threat person A lets say Goku to be stronger opponent than Person B (Vegeta)
0-5% Difference: Basically equals, no real advantage. Weaker person could win just by having more experience. If we would follow normal logic. 6-11%: Slight advantage, tactics and techniques are important here. Stamina is also important. 12-30%: Medium advantage, Goku this time has clear advantage and the fight would be in his favor. Vegeta would need some dirty tactics to use against Goku. 31-45%: High Medium Advantage. Vegeta in this scenario is nothing more than a plaything for Goku. Altrought Goku won't be able to kill with 1 attack. 46-74%: Hight Advantage. Since Goku is trained Ki user this advantage should be enough for him to knock Vegeta cold in just a few attacks. 75+%: Kill Level Advantage. This is basically SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell.
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Post by darrieloni on Jan 15, 2021 14:20:14 GMT
Canon: Buuhan > Buutenks >> Buff Super Buu > Buucolo > Super Buu >= Enraged Fat Buu (Doesn't know how to use his full power) >> Normal Fat Buu > Buff Kid Buu > Skinny Buu = Kid Buu > Mr. Buu Toei: Kid Buu > All
Toei is stupid. SSJ2 Gohan, but he was weaker than his Cell saga self and rusty on top of that. I'd say Dabura is between both versions of Cell in terms of raw power. CanonUltimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks (Post RoSaT) > Hypothetical SSJ3 Gotenks (Pre RoSaT) >>> Hypothetical SSJ2 Gotenks (Pre RoSaT) >> SSJ Gotenks (Pre RoSaT) = SSJ3 Goku. Hypothetical SSJ3 Gotenks (Pre RoSaT) would be 8x as strong as SSJ3 Goku if we use the Daizenshuu multipliers (which I believe fit well enough). Goten and Trunks then trained for a bit in the Room of Spirit and Time, and I usually assume SSJ3 Gotenks went up to 10x SSJ3 Goku, since that's not too high but not too low of a boost. SSJ3 Gotenks was around equal with Super Buu, and Gohan easily dominated him. Gohan dominated Super Buu even more easily than SSJ Goku dominated Freeza in the manga, and that was a 25% power gap. So I usually say Ultimate Gohan was 30% stronger than Super Buu. Hence I believe Ultimate Gohan is, at the lowest, 13x as powerful as SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku ToeiSSJ3 Toei!Goku (Dragon Fist) >> SSJ3 Toei!Goku (Wrath of The Dragon) >>>> SSJ1 Goku > SSJ1 Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks > Ultimate Gohan (Anime filler)Toei!Goku can also stack Kaio-Ken on top of SSJ (anime filler), use his Ki to heal people (Movie 5), summon more than his previous full power even when exhausted (Movie 6), be summoned by the Dragonballs (Movie 10 + GT 100 year later special), absorb the Genki Dama (Movie 7), go out of the afterlife without a 24 hour pass (Movie 9), possibly has an SSJ1 that's as strong as Grade 3 (Spanish anime guide), and possibly more stuff I'm forgettingRealistically:Hirudegarn (Defeated Ultimate Gohan) > Super Janemba (struggled a bit with Goku and Vegeta) >> Fat Janemba >>>>> Super Hatchiyack >= M10 LSSJ Broly > Hatchiyack > M8 LSSJ Broly > Full Power Bojack >>> LSSJ Bio-Broly >> Super Android 13 >> Future 17 and 18 (Trunks Special) >= End of Movie Meta Cooler > Normal Meta Cooler = Android 13 > Androids 15 and 14 >> 5th Form Cooler >>>>> Aka >> Abo and Cado > Galic Jr. (Anime Filler) >= Giant Lord Slug > Turles (End of Movie) >= 1st Form Freeza (B:FoG) > Lord Chilled > Young Lord Slug > Turles>= Old Lord Slug >>> Dr. Wheelo >>> Garlic Jr. (Movie)Toei:LSSJ M10 Broly (Fought against an SSJ2 Gohan whose base was as strong as Broly's SSJ1) >>>[...]>>> Super Hatchiyack >> Hatchiyack LSSJ M8 Broly >> Super Janemba >>>> Hirudegarn > Fat Janemba >>>>>> Full Power Bojack >>> LSSJ Bio-Broly >> Super Android 13 >> Future 17 and 18 (Trunks Special) >= End of Movie Meta Cooler > Normal Meta Cooler = Android 13 > Androids 15 and 14 >> 5th Form Cooler >>>>> Aka >> Abo and Cado > Galic Jr. (Anime Filler) >= Giant Lord Slug > Turles (End of Movie) >= 1st Form Freeza (B:FoG) > Lord Chilled > Young Lord Slug > Turles>= Old Lord Slug >>> Dr. Wheelo >>> Garlic Jr. (Movie) I don't see anything wrong with Daizenshuu's multipliers.Saiyan - Freeza saga power levels behind the spoiler. Placed on a quote because spoiler tags are hell to use
FPSSJ Gohan was already nearly equal with Cell, to the point where the latter had to use his full speed, and yet Gohan was still able to dodge a bit and even land a hit that knocked Cell on his ass.Cell then had to distract Gohan with Death Beams in order to be able to catch him in the bear hug.Let's say that Gohan's rage boost makes him equal with Cell.You add SSJ2 on top of that, and even if it was just a 50% increase, it would still allow him to one-shot all of the Cell Jr.s like he did.I think SSJ2 being a x2 boost fits just fine.SSJ3's boost is the one I don't know how to measure, and because of that, I guess it being a x4 boost for me works just fine simply because I have no idea what to compare it to and how to scale it.So I'd say the multipliers for me are:
INCOMING MATH AND A VERY CONTROVERSIAL TAKE ON SSJ4
Again, placed on a quote because spoiler tags are hell to use
Now here are my takes for the multipliers of forms in Dragonball Super LOL. No.
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Post by Solus on Jan 18, 2021 14:22:36 GMT
Yo, I'm almost 4 years late for the discussion, but I just want to ask - since it has been brought up so many times - how C18's reaction to Trunks' ki attack can be used to meassure Trunks' strength. Because, as far as I know, C18 isn't able to read PL and also has no scouter. On what basis does she assume the power of an opponents attack?
Next point: We know, that Piccolo is stronger than SSJ Trunks, because Buu always displayed his strongest absorbee. And that was Piccolo, after Gotenks defused.
The discussion on Namek Saga PLs is also interesting. I like the idea of transformations adding a PL instead of just multiplying it. But I have a question about Kaioken: Is there any proof that Kaioken really does, what it sounds like? Considering Goku with kk x 3 was not significantly stronger than Vegeta (24k in comparison to 18k), it just doesn't add up. That makes all other assumptions about Goku's and Freezer's PLs on Namek foggy. If we can't tell, how much Kaioken really increases one's strength, then how can we tell how strong Goku and Freezer were? The highest mention of any number was by Freezer himself, stating that his form has reached a power of over 1 million. Afterwards he said, that with each transformation his power doubles (which might be a dub thing. I've read in other sources, that he said, his power would increase by a large margin everytime). So how come, people assume that Freezer's PL would be around 125 Million? Because Freezer said, he was using only 1 % of his power? How would he know? He can't read ki. He might be able to tell 50 % apart from 70, but that's it. I really don't understand, where people are getting their numbers from. Can anyone genuinely explain this?
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 18, 2021 21:02:33 GMT
Yo, I'm almost 4 years late for the discussion, but I just want to ask - since it has been brought up so many times - how C18's reaction to Trunks' ki attack can be used to meassure Trunks' strength. Because, as far as I know, C18 isn't able to read PL and also has no scouter. On what basis does she assume the power of an opponents attack?
Next point: We know, that Piccolo is stronger than SSJ Trunks, because Buu always displayed his strongest absorbee. And that was Piccolo, after Gotenks defused.
The discussion on Namek Saga PLs is also interesting. I like the idea of transformations adding a PL instead of just multiplying it. But I have a question about Kaioken: Is there any proof that Kaioken really does, what it sounds like? Considering Goku with kk x 3 was not significantly stronger than Vegeta (24k in comparison to 18k), it just doesn't add up. That makes all other assumptions about Goku's and Freezer's PLs on Namek foggy. If we can't tell, how much Kaioken really increases one's strength, then how can we tell how strong Goku and Freezer were? The highest mention of any number was by Freezer himself, stating that his form has reached a power of over 1 million. Afterwards he said, that with each transformation his power doubles (which might be a dub thing. I've read in other sources, that he said, his power would increase by a large margin everytime). So how come, people assume that Freezer's PL would be around 125 Million? Because Freezer said, he was using only 1 % of his power? How would he know? He can't read ki. He might be able to tell 50 % apart from 70, but that's it. I really don't understand, where people are getting their numbers from. Can anyone genuinely explain this?
I think the argument was 18 reacting to it at all must mean she learned to sense Ki in the 7 years after Cell’s defeat. When Goku was powering up with 3x Kaioken Bulma was using Raditz scouter and it was around 22,000 when it broke and implied to still be going higher. That fits with what Goku said about how Kaioken is a multiplier and 8,000 power level being multiplied by 3 would be about 24,000. When Goku used 3x Kaioken he became so fast and strong that Vegeta couldn’t keep up with him and he taking damage, so I think he was shown to be significantly stronger.
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Post by darrieloni on Jan 18, 2021 22:47:02 GMT
Yo, I'm almost 4 years late for the discussion, but I just want to ask - since it has been brought up so many times - how C18's reaction to Trunks' ki attack can be used to meassure Trunks' strength. Because, as far as I know, C18 isn't able to read PL and also has no scouter. On what basis does she assume the power of an opponents attack?
Next point: We know, that Piccolo is stronger than SSJ Trunks, because Buu always displayed his strongest absorbee. And that was Piccolo, after Gotenks defused.
The discussion on Namek Saga PLs is also interesting. I like the idea of transformations adding a PL instead of just multiplying it. But I have a question about Kaioken: Is there any proof that Kaioken really does, what it sounds like? Considering Goku with kk x 3 was not significantly stronger than Vegeta (24k in comparison to 18k), it just doesn't add up. That makes all other assumptions about Goku's and Freezer's PLs on Namek foggy. If we can't tell, how much Kaioken really increases one's strength, then how can we tell how strong Goku and Freezer were? The highest mention of any number was by Freezer himself, stating that his form has reached a power of over 1 million. Afterwards he said, that with each transformation his power doubles (which might be a dub thing. I've read in other sources, that he said, his power would increase by a large margin everytime). So how come, people assume that Freezer's PL would be around 125 Million? Because Freezer said, he was using only 1 % of his power? How would he know? He can't read ki. He might be able to tell 50 % apart from 70, but that's it. I really don't understand, where people are getting their numbers from. Can anyone genuinely explain this?
Adding to what Son Pan said, we have the Kanzenshuu's statements Goku upon arrivng on Namek was at 90,000 (Kanzenshuu's statement above, and it's really close to Ginyu's estimate), and by using a normal Kaio-Ken, that doubled to 180,000 From the Kanzenshuu's numbers, we can also gather the following: Base Goku (VS Freeza): 3,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku: 150,000,000 That's a x50 boost. Freeza (100%) 120,000,000 Freeza (50%) 60,000,000 Everyone is familiar with Freeza's statement that he'll only need about 50% of his power to beat Goku/that Goku is only comparable to half his power, depending on which translation you use. Half of Freeza's power is 60 million, and Goku used Kaio-Ken x20. If you divide 60 million by 20, you get 3 million, which is stated on the Kanzenshuu to be Goku's base power at the time. So the Kaio-Ken being a multiplier fits. Random bit of trivia here: There are those who believe the 120 million is Freeza after Goku's statement that his power was dropping. They usually provide the following arguments: - Right after powering up to 100%, Freeza charged at Goku (who was talking to King Kai) and was able to surprise and pummel him for a bit. - In the anime, he put up a significantly better fight than in the manga - Goku said Freeza's power was dropping - Despite Goku's x20 Kaio-Ken supposedly being even with Freeza's 50% power, when Goku put everything he had in a Kamehameha, Freeza was able to block it with one hand, even if he was hurt by it. - Some translations state not that Goku's max power was equal to Freeza's 50%, but that Freeza's 50% would be enough to handle Goku's max power (before SSJ) From what I've seen, these people usually put 100% Freeze aroun 140-145 million I personally don't agree with them, though.
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Post by Solus on Jan 18, 2021 23:07:13 GMT
Yo, I'm almost 4 years late for the discussion, but I just want to ask - since it has been brought up so many times - how C18's reaction to Trunks' ki attack can be used to meassure Trunks' strength. Because, as far as I know, C18 isn't able to read PL and also has no scouter. On what basis does she assume the power of an opponents attack?
Next point: We know, that Piccolo is stronger than SSJ Trunks, because Buu always displayed his strongest absorbee. And that was Piccolo, after Gotenks defused.
The discussion on Namek Saga PLs is also interesting. I like the idea of transformations adding a PL instead of just multiplying it. But I have a question about Kaioken: Is there any proof that Kaioken really does, what it sounds like? Considering Goku with kk x 3 was not significantly stronger than Vegeta (24k in comparison to 18k), it just doesn't add up. That makes all other assumptions about Goku's and Freezer's PLs on Namek foggy. If we can't tell, how much Kaioken really increases one's strength, then how can we tell how strong Goku and Freezer were? The highest mention of any number was by Freezer himself, stating that his form has reached a power of over 1 million. Afterwards he said, that with each transformation his power doubles (which might be a dub thing. I've read in other sources, that he said, his power would increase by a large margin everytime). So how come, people assume that Freezer's PL would be around 125 Million? Because Freezer said, he was using only 1 % of his power? How would he know? He can't read ki. He might be able to tell 50 % apart from 70, but that's it. I really don't understand, where people are getting their numbers from. Can anyone genuinely explain this?
Adding to what Son Pan said, we have the Kanzenshuu's statements Goku upon arrivng on Namek was at 90,000 (Kanzenshuu's statement above, and it's really close to Ginyu's estimate), and by using a normal Kaio-Ken, that doubled to 180,000 From the Kanzenshuu's numbers, we can also gather the following: Base Goku (VS Freeza): 3,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku: 150,000,000 That's a x50 boost. Freeza (100%) 120,000,000 Freeza (50%) 60,000,000 Everyone is familiar with Freeza's statement that he'll only need about 50% of his power to beat Goku/that Goku is only comparable to half his power, depending on which translation you use. Half of Freeza's power is 60 million, and Goku used Kaio-Ken x20. If you divide 60 million by 20, you get 3 million, which is stated on the Kanzenshuu to be Goku's base power at the time. So the Kaio-Ken being a multiplier fits. Random bit of trivia here: There are those who believe the 120 million is Freeza after Goku's statement that his power was dropping. They usually provide the following arguments: - Right after powering up to 100%, Freeza charged at Goku (who was talking to King Kai) and was able to surprise and pummel him for a bit. - In the anime, he put up a significantly better fight than in the manga - Goku said Freeza's power was dropping - Despite Goku's x20 Kaio-Ken supposedly being even with Freeza's 50% power, when Goku put everything he had in a Kamehameha, Freeza was able to block it with one hand, even if he was hurt by it. - Some translations state not that Goku's max power was equal to Freeza's 50%, but that Freeza's 50% would be enough to handle Goku's max power (before SSJ) From what I've seen, these people usually put 100% Freeze aroun 140-145 million I personally don't agree with them, though. Well, thanks for providing this. It really gives me a hint, where all of that is coming from. Seems logical at the first glance. I'm sure, you could make it work otherwise, but I don't want to invest my time for that, since everybody accepts this idea of the kanzenshuu.
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Post by zennaro on Jun 6, 2021 16:45:59 GMT
I know The Perfect God is banned but I wanted to address the two pieces of "evidence" he was using. I've seen these come up a lot as evidence and they're a little misleading. Toriyama's interviewOut of all your characters, which one is the most (blank)? Cool: Goku “I think it’s Goku.” The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all! If you notice only I think it's Goku is in quotations so that's all that Toriyama said. That means what comes after is just a comment from the interviewer himself. He did this a few times during that interview where he quotes Toriyama and gives his opinion afterwards outside of the quotations. Nowhere in this interview does Toriyama talk about Goku's strength . The Spirit BombThis is commonly used as evidence to suggest that Kid Buu > Ultimate Gohan since the Spirit Bomb included Gohan's energy. I'm sure we're all familiar by now with the Spirit Bomb's original name, Genki Dama. This is what Toriyama said regarding the different components of ki: What is the key to winning in battle? In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki. I've seen "Genki" translated as "vitality","health", or "stamina" as well. That means the Spirit Bomb is only fueled by one component of ki and not overall ki. Goten and Trunks didn't even transform or fuse which wouldn't make sense if their goal was to give as much energy as possible. If Genki refers to health or stamina then it could explain why the Z fighters didn't power-up because their Genki would've remained constant and is independent of their power. this sounded very reasonable until I realized that in reality Super had bonked this idea to the ground,twice (Xenoverse kinda fixed it the first time but ehh) once with the Spirit Sword,used on a planet 90% void of people,and strong fighters second with Jiren,in the middle of nowhere. as for input in this thread,for a long time I've been leaning to Vegito1089's videos on Youtube (if he is a sensitive topic here please forgive me ;;-; ,so most of my PL ideas came from that, though some of his renewed videos has evidence to back some of his PL claims. What is everyone here's take on him,and his "Decreasing Multiplier Theory"?
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Post by darrieloni on Jun 19, 2021 14:06:07 GMT
Since I got around to working out some Super multipliers for another thread while bored, I will copy paste them here
Get ready for some really stupid shit.
- Goku said fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus - Goku had no way of knowing how strong SSG is - Super Saiyan God wasn' t enough to beat Beerus either. Not even close.
Basically the only comparison we can make is that neither SSG nor SSJ3 Vegetto would be enough to defeat Beerus, so we might as well just go the convenient route and call them equals.
Now, Daizenshuu 7 compares Base Vegetto to SSJ3 Goku so we'll just assume they're equals as well
SSJ3 is Base x400 so SSJ3 Vegetto would be 400 stronger than SSJ3 Goku This lands Super Saiyan God at Base x160,000 which is fittingly exactly 5 times as powerful as SSJ4 Now Super Saiyan Blue splits off with the anime and manga continuities. In the manga it is flat out stated to be SSG x10 in the U6 Tournament, when SSG Goku is compared to SSB Vegeta at 10% power. So Base x1,600,000Later on they make "Perfect Blue" which is just the true power of Blue. We know SSJ is x50 so we can just assume the full power of Blue turns that x10 into the full x50, meaning Perfect Blue is just Blue x5 Anime Blue is just SSG + SSJ from the start, so it is the same SSG x50 as the manga's Perfect Blue, which means both are Base x8,000,000We already know how Kaio Ken works and Goku stacks x20 on top of Blue in the anime (I think only x2 in the manga), and then Evolution Blue is supposedly even with that. So we just take Anime Blue/Perfect Blue and multiply that by 20 Blue KKx20/Blue Evolution are both Base x160,000,000All we know about Ultra Instinct is that the first usage was stronger than Blue KKx20 + a Spirit Bomb I'm gonna assume that Spirit Bomb was equal to Blue x20, so basically Blue x40 with both combined, and Ultra Instinct Sign was stronger than that. I'll lowball it to hypothetical Blue KKx50 This would place the first usage of Ultra Instinct Sign at Base x400,000,000
Are you rolling your eyes yet?
TL;DR
Oozaru: Base x10
SSJ: Base x50 SSJ2: Base x100 SSJ3: Base x400
Improved SSJ2 (Manga): Base x400 (Normal SSJ2 Trunks was equal with SSJ2 Goku, and his Improved SSJ2 was equal with Goku's SSJ3)
Golden Oozaru: Base x4,000 SSJ4: Base x32,000
Super Saiyan God: Base x160,000 SSB (Manga): Base x1,600,000 SSB (Anime): Base x8,000,000 Perfect Blue (Manga): Base x8,000,000
Rosé (Manga): It's just Blue recolored, so also Base x8,000,000
Rosé (Anime): Base x50 (Anime guide said it is his normal SSJ equivalent and Heroes gave him Rosé 2)
Super Saiyan Rage: Absolute bullshit
Blue Evolution (Manga): Base x16,000,000 (?)
Blue Evolution (Anime): Base x160,000,000
Ultra Instinct Sign (First usage): At least Base x400,000,000
Broly and Kale's forms: Impossible to be sure
Little bonus:
In Movie 10, SSJ Broly is about even with Base Gohan who never stopped training according to dialogue. Then LSSJ Broly is about even with SSJ2 Gohan, and we know SSJ2 is base x100
This means that Z-Broly's LSSJ is SSJ x100, or Base x5,000 It's stupid. Just like Z-Broly. It really fits him.
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