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Post by fooshin on Jan 28, 2017 8:06:02 GMT
Sorry, I only have time to respond to "Betty" but I have read and do plan on responding to Axalon and ashanark's post asap tomorrow. The general assumption of the Z fighters and fan base at the time was that Goku was the strongest one present and had the best chance against Cell. There would be no point to bring that into question and have Gohan explain that he thought Goku was holding back 1.unless it's meant to reveal some new information. Toriyama could've easily NOT included this conversation and 2.simply let us continue assuming Goku was the strongest until SSJ2 was revealed. . 1.The new information would be that Gohan went from weakling all the way up to almost as strong as Goku, and if he pushed himself (thru rage) he could far surpass Goku and even Cell. That would be new information not known by the z fighters or that fan base at that time and fits very nicely as a good story line. 2. AT had to include the conversation because the fan base at the time needed to be introduced to the somewhat radical idea that Gohan went from pre-ssj weakling (basically Krillin or Tien) all the way to nearly matching goku at the near peak of his ssj1 mastery in the mere span of a year's training. Also, Gohan had to be at least close to Goku's strength to even attempt to fight Cell long enough to get to ssj2. None of that required him to actually be stronger than Goku and isn't proof at all to that end. Once again, this conversation you're referring to also doesn't prove he's weaker, nor does it suggest he's stronger only that he was close enough to survive a fight with cell in the hopes of going ssj2 (aka Goku's gamble). There's a third option you're missing. He could also be slightly weaker, say 5 to 10%. You can follow a fight and still be slightly weaker than the combatants you're watching. The key words here are "was it too tough to follow." No, it wasn't too tough but it wasn't easy either. I think it's clear to everyone that Goku was slightly weaker than Cell (suppressed) and yet he still put up one hell of a fight against him. Yes, you can be weaker than your opponent and still not only keep up with the moves but also put up one hell of a fight. Vegeta vs Recoome is another great example. Cell said there was a "germ of truth." You have to admit that's pretty damn vague. Like the z fighters and the fan base, Cell is also blown away at just how strong this little runt has become. It's hard to believe he's surpassed Vegeta and Trunks. I see this merely as an admission that Gohan is not a joke, "a bluff" as he says that he is in fact the 2nd strongest of the bunch. But just as he says later, he's had enough of 2nd best and wants #1 to come back into the ring. As I said in my first post, I could make a whole separate thread on this, but I will attempt to be brief. First off, that is not a power up. We know what power ups look like. He does one when early on with Goku and does his 2nd one when he's facing ssj2 Gohan. If you look at Goku's fight, you can clearly see that he does the exact same thing to him. He starts with the motion blur speediness and gets the upper hand and then brags "I've got pretty damn good speed too (his true speed/full speed)." Later with Gohan he does the same exact motion blurred speed moves. The main difference is that prior to using his "full" speed, Goku was knocking cell around a bit. With Gohan the best he could do was block and dodge (ie. evidence that he was weaker). Now, where exactly does the speed come from. Well, it's my opinion, and Saligir seems to share it also that when fighters have mastered their ki control they are capable of manipulating their ki into the component parts of their power. They can shift their ki heavily into their strength (at the cost of their speed) as we see with assj and ussj or they can shift their strength into their speed. Just look at how Trunks vs Vegeta in DBM fight went down. He was quickly able to shift his ki into one form or another depending on the need. And I believe this is what's going on here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 15:24:54 GMT
1.The new information would be that Gohan went from weakling all the way up to almost as strong as Goku, and if he pushed himself (thru rage) he could far surpass Goku and even Cell. That would be new information not known by the z fighters or that fan base at that time and fits very nicely as a good story line. 2. AT had to include the conversation because the fan base at the time needed to be introduced to the somewhat radical idea that Gohan went from pre-ssj weakling (basically Krillin or Tien) all the way to nearly matching goku at the near peak of his ssj1 mastery in the mere span of a year's training. Also, Gohan had to be at least close to Goku's strength to even attempt to fight Cell long enough to get to ssj2. None of that required him to actually be stronger than Goku and isn't proof at all to that end. Once again, this conversation you're referring to also doesn't prove he's weaker, nor does it suggest he's stronger only that he was close enough to survive a fight with cell in the hopes of going ssj2 (aka Goku's gamble). Would any of this honestly be considered NEW information? They've already established that Gohan wasn't weak by the fact that he was a FPSSJ and trained with Goku for a year. That alone was enough to imply he was in the same relative tier as Goku same way ASSJ Trunks was about as strong as ASSJ Vegeta. Gohan's rage wasn't brought up during the Cell Games until after this conversation, after he powered up and impressed everyone, after Cell revealed there was some truth to what Goku said, and after Cell increased his speed. The only new information that could be gained from this particular conversation is that Gohan is not only within the same tier as Goku but also stronger than him. If we look at the rest of the evidence in the simplest and most straightforward way possible, this is likely the conclusion we would come to. All the Z fighters present were able to follow the fight even Yamcha. There was clearly more to this conversation than just to convey to us that Gohan could follow the fight because that applied to every Z fighter there. This was intended to compare Gohan's power relative to Goku's based on how unimpressed he was with the battle and assuming they were both holding back. It's only really vague if you're trying to overanalyze it. If Gohan was weaker than Goku, there would be zero truth to what Goku said. Cell couldn't say there's a germ of truth or that there was any truth to it at all. None of the Z fighters would've been impressed after Gohan's powered up against Cell. Goku gave up and wanted Gohan to fight instead therefore the Z fighters assume Gohan was going to be stronger than Goku. If Gohan powers up and it's less than Goku's power, no one would be impressed and they would've questioned how Gohan was going to stand a chance. Again this is really overanalyzing it. If a character utters a line and it isn't contradicted, we usually assume that's what the author intended. Cell says he's going to increase his speed against Gohan and no one questions if this speed was less than what he used against Goku therefore we're left to assume that Cell's speed against SSJ Gohan > Cell's speed against SSJ Goku. After Cell increases his speed and knocks Gohan back, Gohan reveals that he doesn't want to fight which means that so far Gohan hasn't been fighting seriously and has only been trying to defend against Cell.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 29, 2017 4:19:30 GMT
Would any of this honestly be considered NEW information? They've already established that Gohan wasn't weak by the fact that he was a FPSSJ and trained with Goku for a year. That alone was enough to imply he was in the same relative tier as Goku same way ASSJ Trunks was about as strong as ASSJ Vegeta. Yup! Vegeta is a perfect measurement stick for this way back when Goku powered up to 50% at Korin's Tower. Gohan remained calm and somewhat dubious even then at Goku's strength. Vegeta on the other hand was infuriated at how inferior he had once again become. This alone shows how far Gohan has come compared to Vegeta in the simple span of one year, who just prior to this was the strongest Z Fighter on the block, and establishes both Goku and Gohan as being a tier above.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 29, 2017 6:03:14 GMT
Would any of this honestly be considered NEW information? 1.They've already established that Gohan wasn't weak by the fact that he was a FPSSJ and trained with Goku for a year. That alone was enough to imply he was in the same relative tier as Goku same way ASSJ Trunks was about as strong as ASSJ Vegeta. Gohan's rage wasn't brought up during the Cell Games until after this conversation, after he powered up and impressed everyone, after Cell revealed there was some truth to what Goku said, and after Cell increased his speed. The only new information that could be gained from this particular conversation is that Gohan is not only within the same tier as Goku but also stronger than him. If we look at the rest of the evidence in the simplest and most straightforward way possible, this is likely the conclusion we would come to. 1. No, not at all. It was not established that he was "fpssj prior to the conversation." It was established that he went ssj in the Rosat and that he continued to train with goku for the remainder of the year and that was the complete sum of information the reader was given. Keep in mind that Trunks and Vegeta were almost equal in strength before and after they came out of the Rosat and so it's only natural that they would be similar after the same amount of training. Right? Gohan on the other hand was by far weaker than goku, and came out stronger than both vegeta and trunks. Neither the fan base nor the other z fighters have any way of knowing that he grew by such an amazing amount in such little time. That is the shocker in and of itself. It doesn't require him to be stronger than goku to be amazing, only that he is at all close to him that shocks everyone. It is no small thing that he went from where he was to being slightly weaker than Goku. Since there was absolutely zero indication that he went from entry ssj all the was to "fpssj" prior to the conversation then that in and of itself is the new information. The conversation was only a pep talk for goku to convince his son that he could face off with cell without immediately getting squashed. Gohan believed he was far weaker than his father and that they were still playing around. When it was explained to him that they weren't playing around it was only then that Gohan realized he could actually fight at their same level (more or less). Keep in mind that when he was convinced he didn't say, "oh, well if that's all the power you guys have I'll easily be able to squash this guy," What he said was only that, "I'll do my best." Not at all a vote of confidence in his supreme ability gauged on the fight he just saw, more like only an acknowledgment that he was stong enough not to get killed in the first hit. It's really vague because it's really vague. It's a true or false question and he says it's barely true which would imply that it's by in large false, correct? Cell said goku was bluffing implying that Gohan was an absolute joke as everyone would have believed without the post knowledge of his unbelievable jump in strength. When he witnesses that he's still too weak but not at all a total bluff (being the 2nd strongest)as he suggested then he states there was a mere "germ of truth." I'm attempting to create a persuasive argument using the facts at hand. Since the author failed to make a clear statement that Gohan was stonger than Goku it falls upon the reader to analyze the minor details to figure out the truth. If the mere attempt to do so can be labeled as "overanalyzing" then I guess I'm guilty but... I'll at least try to simplify this point so it's more easy to digest. In Goku's fight, Cell does the exact same speed technique (or power up if you prefer) as he does in Gohan's battle. There is the exact same speed lines/motion blur in both fights and for all purposes practically the same bragging dialog when he does it. There is no meaningful difference in the illustration and only a minor arguable difference in the dialog. What is clear is it's the same thing in both battles without any credible power up as they are always shown. Cell fought goku the same as he fought Gohan and the only real diffence is that Goku did a whole lot better. Hence... Goku was slightly stonger than Gohan. Once again, apologies for the other posts, but I have very little time to respond on the weekends. Will get back eventually.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 29, 2017 6:41:32 GMT
1. No, not at all. It was not established that he was "fpssj prior to the conversation." It was established that he went ssj in the Rosat and that he continued to train with goku for the remainder of the year and that was the complete sum of information the reader was given. ... Since there was absolutely zero indication that he went from entry ssj all the was to "fpssj" prior to the conversation then that in and of itself is the new information. This was established the instant they stepped out of the chamber, not later during the Cell Games. Both Goku and Gohan were displaying the exact same traits of calm and ease as FPSS1s, as noted by Vegeta.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 16:17:16 GMT
fooshinHow about we look at the evidence from both angles, Gohan being stronger than Goku and Gohan being weaker, and you tell me which one is the simplest and most direct interpretation. SSJGohan > SSJGoku 1. Gohan assumed Goku was holding back.Meaning: Gohan compared Goku's power to his own and realized it was less than his own. 2. The Z fighters were impressed when Gohan powered-up.
Meaning: When Goku wanted Gohan to fight instead of him, the Z fighters would have to assume Gohan was stronger than Goku because it would make no sense to switch in with a weaker teammate. They were impressed because Gohan's powering up confirmed that he was indeed stronger than Goku. 3. Cell said there was some truth to what Goku said.Meaning: Goku said that Gohan had a better chance against Cell than he did. Cell says there was some truth to this statement when Gohan powers up. If Gohan was weaker than Goku, there wouldn't be "some truth", a "shred of truth", a "germ of truth", or anything about it that would associated with the truth because it would be 100% false. 4. Cell decides to use his full speed.
Meaning: Gohan was able to dodge his attacks and counter so Cell decided to use his full speed. He did not indicate that he was using his full speed against Goku therefore his speed against Gohan > his speed against Goku. Now let's look at the other side: SSJGoku > SSJGohan 1. Gohan assumed Goku was holding back.
Meaning: Toriyama intended for us to decipher that this ONLY meant Gohan was close to Goku in power but still weaker. 2. The Z fighters were impressed when Gohan powered-up.Meaning: The Z fighters were only impressed because Gohan had powered-up so much in such a short time. He was weaker than Goku but no one bothered to point that out. 3. Cell said there was some truth to what Goku said.Meaning: Cell was lying when he said there was some truth to it rather than immediately pointing out that Gohan was weaker than Goku. 4. Cell decides to use his full speed.Meaning: Toriyama intended for us to analyze the motions blurs between Cell's speed now and the speed he used against Goku to determine they were both equal and in fact Cell was lying about using his full speed against Gohan or that he failed to mention he was using his full speed before against Goku. Cell knew Gohan was weaker than Goku but he increased his speed anyway. I don't think Toriyama really wants us to compare motion blurs or speed lines because they're only meant to convey fast movement and there's no actual way to measure them. That would be like someone claiming a Buu saga character was only as strong as Nappa by comparing the blast radius of their attack and ignoring statements and that fact that everyone is concentrating their energy. It's only against Gohan that Cell talks about using his "full speed" while against Goku Cell only comments about how he's confident in his speed. Dragonball is shonen and intended for a young audience. We're usually meant to take statements at face-value and not overthink them unless there's something else that contradicts them later on. I felt that SSJGohan > SSJGoku was the simplest approach and involves just accepting what the characters are saying and I don't see anything that contradicts any of those statements. The other approach, SSJGoku > SSJGohan, requires more work in trying to explain why you basically shouldn't accept the first assumption that comes to mind after reading these pages. I think it could work as a possible interpretation for the sake of discussion but no way can I agree that Toriyama intended for us to go that far when there's an easier and simpler interpretation available from the same information.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 30, 2017 7:40:07 GMT
fooshin SSJGohan > SSJGoku 1. Gohan assumed Goku was holding back.Meaning: Gohan compared Goku's power to his own and realized it was less than his own. Yes, that in and of itself is one completely plausible scenario among others. You have to put their reactions in context. All the z fighters thought Gohan was a complete joke along with Cell. When Goku said Gohan was the only one who could beat Cell no one believed him. He managed to convince Gohan that he was at a minimum capable of facing off with Cell without getting one shotted at the level they fought at but that's the beginning and end of it. Gohan was not enthusiastic about his chances he merely said "I'll do my best." When Gohan powered up the skepticism about his power vanished and they were all shocked to see he was no longer a joke but far stronger than even vegeta and Trunks. Where exactly in that mix is there the slightest bit of proof that he was stonger or weaker than Goku I have no idea. They didn't have to assume he was stronger especially when goku was talking about Gohan's hidden powers. They went from total disbelief to maybe Goku's right, let's see how this plays out... and we all know it wasn't long before Picollo says wtf are you doing Goku he's not unlocking his hidden powers like you thought, he's just getting killed out there. Hmm.. Cell also said that even given a hundred years Gohan could never beat him. So I'd say the part about Gohan being able to beat him was 100% false wouldn't you agree? Cell thought that Gohan was some kind of bluff or joke. That is the specific part of the statements in which Cell is referring to when he says there is a germ of truth (ie. Gohan is not a bluff or joke. He really is a strong fighter but no where near enough). Also (if you believe my theory, and the way it turned out) then Goku only told Gohan that he had a better chance against Cell than he did because of ssj2. He made it clear multiple times that Cell just had to get him mad enough and Gohan would win. You shouldn't mistake that particular statement to mean that he though Gohan as ssj1 was stonger than him or Cell because he made it clear that it was about the hidden powers not the ones he already had (ie. ssj1). Cell said I'm using my full speed on Gohan whereas with Goku he only used his "pretty damn good speed" so on it's face disregarding the illustrations that occurred minutes apart then those must be completely different levels of speed, ok maybe. Now, let's say that we are 100% disregarding the fighting that occurred before he did this similar looking speed increase in which Goku performed much better then even though they both got worked by the speed increase you somehow think it's obvious that Gohan would have not been affected by that "pretty damn good speed" levels he used with Goku??? The holding back conversation by itself leads to an assumption any way you slice it. That is why by itself it is a terrible thing to point at to show proof to any point of view. I have repeatedly said this statement only proves that he's in a range so why people keep pointing to it as definitive proof that he was stronger must be just because it fits so nicely with their preconceived notion that Gohan was stronger. In my opinion, AT meant for the slow build leading to the amazing realization that Gohan suddenly mattered first and foremost. He had grown leaps and bounds beyond what anyone had ever expected of him. I think it was his intention to present Gohan as a viable fighter in that moment but it wasn't until the climactic ssj2 that he finally surpassed all the others including his father. That was the moment the author wanted to highlight as Gohan's full ascension. Having him surpass his father quietly off screen in the Rosat truly diminishes the feat especially when you consider that DB was always about Goku and him being the best no matter what. Gohan was always the runt. He was hardly ever worth a damn other than his brief rage boosts that merely stalled the villians. All the Z fighters knew this. You honestly think that they wouldn't be impressed that after a mere year of training he went from runt to significantly surpassing super vegeta and trunks? That's really not enough of an impossible feat to impress them, really? Yeah, he was weaker than Goku and no one bothered to point that out just like he was stronger than Goku and no one bothered to point that out either. See statement above for #3. Cell wasn't lying. He just wasn't talking about Gohan's ability to beat him. He was talking about the fact that Gohan wasn't a joke. At intended to show the fights in similar fashion and just as it started out with goku landing several good hits before cell brags and uses his speed he also has Gohan start out with a few dodges and a block before cell brags and uses his speed. Not sure why you go to the length of comparing buu saga and Nappa to discredit this. Were talking about comparing something that's practically happening in the very same fight. The comparison is completely justifiable when it's minutes apart with the same characters at the same power levels. Cell still thought Gohan wasn't much even after witnessing his powerup. He boasted to everyone about just how easily he was going to kill him and when Gohan managed to pull off a few dodges and a block, Cell was embarrassed that Gohan was stronger than he gave him credit for. That's when from that point on he used his "full" speed. Whether it was a bit faster than the one he used on Goku is irrelevant as we already had a fight beforehand in which Goku did better in which to compare. If Cell really was going faster than he was with Goku and Gohan was managing to put up a decent fight then you could say look he's faster and Gohan is doing the same as goku but the reality is he still didn't do much and was easily overcome so that's hardly proof of anything even if he was faster with Gohan. Yes, I agree and that's why I don't like it when people pull out the "he must be lying there," and "he had no will to fight" comments because that's exactly when it's not taking things at face value when there's no good reason to not do so. That's why I want to show you a very strong face value statement that really sums it all up and see exactly how you can argue against it when it's so obviously confirms my theory on it's face. After witnessing Gohan's full power up and even fighting him for several pages Cell states "Goku! That's enough of your silly joke!! Eat a senzu and fight me some more!!" On it's face that is 100% proof that Cell believes Goku is stronger than Gohan. Gohan is a joke and Goku is the real competition. Can't be much plainer than that. Sure, Gohan gets back up and Cell gives him some credit again but ultimately it never changes anything in the continuing fight (if you can call Gohan getting his ass kicked a fight). Gohan continues to get dominated in the way Goku never did all the way up to the point where Cell has him in his death hold. If anything Cell's desire to see Gohan's hidden power just makes him sloppy enough that Gohan finally managed to get his one and only hit in.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2017 17:05:45 GMT
Hmm.. Cell also said that even given a hundred years Gohan could never beat him. So I'd say the part about Gohan being able to beat him was 100% false wouldn't you agree? Cell thought that Gohan was some kind of bluff or joke. That is the specific part of the statements in which Cell is referring to when he says there is a germ of truth (ie. Gohan is not a bluff or joke. He really is a strong fighter but no where near enough). Also (if you believe my theory, and the way it turned out) then Goku only told Gohan that he had a better chance against Cell than he did because of ssj2. He made it clear multiple times that Cell just had to get him mad enough and Gohan would win. You shouldn't mistake that particular statement to mean that he though Gohan as ssj1 was stonger than him or Cell because he made it clear that it was about the hidden powers not the ones he already had (ie. ssj1). Goku gave two statements, one implying that Gohan was stronger than he was and that Gohan could defeat Cell, and Cell gave two responses. After Gohan powered-up, Cell said there was some truth to it which obviously refers to Gohan's power in comparison to Goku's. When Cell said Gohan could never beat him, that was his response to Goku's other statement about Gohan defeating him. If Cell felt that Gohan was weaker than Goku, he would've disagreed with both statements and he didn't say there's some truth to either one. Gohan having no will to fight wasn't a baseless fan theory. That comes from the fact that Gohan didn't want to fight Cell which implies he didn't believe in himself and wasn't going all out. Even after powering-up, Gohan was only dodging Cell's attacks until Cell decided to increase his speed. After Cell knocked Gohan back, it made sense that he wanted to fight Goku again because Gohan wasn't fighting back at all. Your argument isn't really taking any of the evidence at face value and you're suggesting that the first assumption fans would come to are all incorrect. You're going one point at a time explaining that the author may have wanted us to NOT come to the most straightforward conclusion based on what the characters were suggesting. If someone had asked Toriyama in an interview at the time, I really doubt he's going to go to great lengths to explain that the Z fighters were ONLY impressed by Gohan's growth in power and not that they thought the was stronger than Goku or tell us to compare the motion blurs of Cell's speed increase and ignore that he only mentioned "full speed" against Gohan, etc. Something else to consider is that Gohan was the only one capable of going SSJ2. If we adhere by the idea that a Saiyan has to max out a certain form or that there's at least a certain threshold they have to reach before unlocking the next, that would also imply Gohan's SSJ1 was stronger than Goku's. Goku was able to achieve SSJ2 and SSJ3 in Other World, Vegeta was able to unlock SSJ2 during the next seven years, Gotenks unlocked SSJ3 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. It wasn't implied that they had any sort of traumatic experience to trigger the transformations and they were achieved by just pure training. For Goku to reach two new transformations with just training, that would imply he hit some limit in SSJ1 before unlocking SSJ2 and then hit limit in SSJ2 before unlocking SSJ3. Gohan's rage helped him trigger the SSJ2 transformation but if he still had a lot of room for improvement in FPSSJ then he probably would've been an enraged SSJ1 instead of immediately breaking through to the next transformation. If Gohan was intended to be weaker than Goku in SSJ1, this might be the only time in the manga where a Saiyan was able to unlock a new form while not being the strongest in their previous form.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 30, 2017 17:23:13 GMT
You have to put their reactions in context. All the z fighters thought Gohan was a complete joke along with Cell. When Goku said Gohan was the only one who could beat Cell no one believed him. I agree. Let's look at some more context. Gohan hadn't powered up at this point. His relaxed FPSS1 state was comparable to his base form. So when Goku picked Gohan, of course they were incredulous. Vegeta and Piccolo were stunned when Gohan said he thought Goku wasn't even trying when everyone else was amazed at Goku's strength. This isn't some fluke either. Three separate instances have Gohan not being impressed by Goku's strength. Any objections stopped after Gohan powered up. Yay, context! Goku specifically says Gohan is stronger. Not "Hey Cell, fight Gohan, he's almost as good as I am!". Specifically stronger. Gohan then powers up. If he were weaker, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Cell would've called BS. They don't. So we have the main character (Goku), Gohan's second father figure and former archrival to the main character (Piccolo), Goku's prideful archrival (Vegeta), and the main arc villain (Cell) not calling Goku out for specifically saying Gohan was stronger than he was. Had he been weaker, they all would've called BS. Goku did not mention his plan about getting Gohan's rage to kick in at first. He simply said Gohan was stronger than him. Gohan then powers up, and the Z Fighters stop questioning Goku on this point. Gohan's rage isn't brought up until after Cell uses his "real speed". Correct. This is but one reason why Gohan was stronger than Goku as a FPSS1. It's still not a match for Cell, but stronger than Goku--who is also not a match for Cell. Again, this only gets brought up later. In the initial moments all they have to go off of is that Gohan > Goku, and when he powers up all the objections stop. Another thing to keep in mind is that it's two separate issues. We have Goku < Gohan, and Gohan > Cell. By the time Cell is pummeling Gohan the question isn't if Gohan is stronger than Goku, it's if he can defeat Cell. That's when Goku brings up Gohan's rage. No one's disregarding Goku's fight with Cell. It's actively being used as a counterpoint about Cell's speed and how he wasn't using all of it. The fight begins, and Cell's first kick gets casually blocked, followed by a bunch of straight-up misses immediately after. Then Cell realized he had to use his real speed, and does so with greater success. The argument being made is that the speed he used against Gohan is not the same speed he used against Cell, evidenced by Cell specifically saying "Look at my real speed!" Keep in mind that Gohan was watching Cell's "damn good speed" against Goku and thought THAT speed was still Goku and Cell horsing around.
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 30, 2017 17:39:14 GMT
^Also, if Cell was using his "true speed" against Goku and powered down initially against Gohan before going back to full speed...then this interpretation requires Cell to power down off-screen and not have anyone--himself, Goku, Gohan, or anyone else--mention that he's fighting at a reduced level. The simpler interpretation is that Cell's initial level against Gohan is the same as it was when we last saw him fighting--so, his level against Goku--and that he powered up even further beyond when Gohan showed he could dodge all his attacks.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 30, 2017 20:30:11 GMT
Goku gave two statements, 1. one implying that Gohan was stronger than he was and that Gohan could defeat Cell, and Cell gave two responses. After Gohan powered-up, Cell said there was some truth to it which obviously refers to Gohan's power in comparison to Goku's. When Cell said Gohan could never beat him, that was his response to Goku's other statement about Gohan defeating him. If Cell felt that Gohan was weaker than Goku, he would've disagreed with both statements and he didn't say there's some truth to either one. 1. He said Gohan could beat him but we all know he meant as ssj2. He even hinted at it at that specific time when he mentioned Gohan's hidden power. It's completely wrong to say that implied Gohan was stronger than Goku as ssj1. Goku knows he and the rest of the z fighters are not strong enough to beat Cell. He knows his son has the hidden ability to surpass Cell so even though Gohan is currently weaker he takes a gamble and sends him out anyways hoping Cell will get him mad enough. This was all mentioned many times with Goku's thought bubbles and his conversation with Picollo. No part of that plan actually requires Gohan to be stronger than Goku in ssj1. He merely needs to be stong enough not to get one shotted - which he was. For the rest, no, not at all. This is what happened: Goku: If the next guy can't beat you probably no one can... after fighting you. I'm pretty sure that he can beat you (with his hidden power). When we were in the rosat I was able to start to bring out some of his deeply hidden power (hidden power could beat Cell, not at all his ssj1) Cell: Are you trying to say that you think he's stronger than I am!? Cell: Is he trying to make fun of me...? I wondered what he was talking about but Gohan!? ---Gohan powers up--- Cell: Goku wasn't completely lying after all. There was a germ of truth in his story. But saying you could beat me was just too much (the part about beating me was total bs/ 100% false) Cell (later): Even if you had a hundered years you could never beat me. So as you can see Cell listened to many comments from Goku comprising his story, not just a claim or singular statement. There was a germ of truth to the story and that germ was that Gohan was not there to "make fun of me," he is not a joke. It's because the part of the theory that Gohan>Goku has a flaw in it (the actual fights) that leaves the theorist to fill in the hole with their imagination (a lack of will to fight) whereas in my theory that Goku>Gohan, no such imagination needs to take place. Goku did better than Gohan and I don't have to pretend that Gohan's lack of real strength is a result of a lack of will to fight. I've already explained the details but I'll sum them up again. 1. Gohan tells Goku he will do his best (you believe he's lying to Goku, that he's going to hold back) 2. Gohan is always illustrated with sincere determination on face until the fight was over (Apparently that's not clear to you) 3. Gohan was brave enough to stand toe to toe with Cell and barely manages to avoid his hits (you think he's faking it that he could hit back but is choosing not to even though when given the opportunity later when cell was being cocky he totally went for it. And no, whoever claimed this, Cell didn't directly threaten his friends until after Gohan kicked him) 4. Gohan stops the fight to fully threaten Cell that if he keeps pushing him he'll "lose control" and kill him. He doesn't want to kill Cell. Of course he's willing to fight him, that's exactly why he decided to face off with him (you believe he faced off with him because... he wanted to not fight???). Gohan realizes he completely lacks the strength to defeat him as ssj1 but remembers what his father told him and he doesn't want to go there because he knows it will turn him into a killer. This is nothing new about Gohan, this is who his character is. (you believe that once again he's choosing to suck because he must be holding back. Otherwise it doesn't fit your theory) Common thread on your beliefs is you don't want to take things as they are shown. You want to see what the deeper meaning might be to fit your theory. And as far as the other stuff goes. Of course, if AT gave an interview he would support your opinion. How can I ever challenge such a claim? And as far as the majority of the fan base... fan bases are infallible. Majority rules and loves to bully the dissenting voices no matter how logical and reasonable they may be. I'm well aware of this theory and there's not enough information to really say what the minimum thresholds are. You're not exactly talking about something that can be proven much at all so it's not really worth mentioning as support for your theory. I do believe that it was heavily implied that Vegeta had surpassed Goku's base but struggled to find his trigger so that one appears to conflict. Can't hardly use the current argument as an example for obvious reasons. It's difficult to say how strong Goten and Trunks were when they transformed as they were mostly a gag but we do see trunks in a mere 100g struggling to walk which would heavily imply that he was far weaker than Goku and yet he still transformed. Goku and Vegeta in buu saga is a can of worms. If you take DBM into account (just cause I respect Saligir's opinion) it seems pretty clear that u7 Vegeta who was being defeated by the ginyu force went ssj so he had to have been extremely weak compared to Goku vs Freeza. Not sure if I missed one but my own personal take on that theory is only that there is a bit of a min threshold but when we saw the characters doing it in the manga, it was never meant to imply that they hadn't already far passed those thresholds. They still need to find their own personal triggers.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 30, 2017 21:01:03 GMT
^Also, if Cell was using his "true speed" against Goku and powered down initially against Gohan before going back to full speed...then this interpretation requires Cell to power down off-screen and not have anyone--himself, Goku, Gohan, or anyone else--mention that he's fighting at a reduced level. The simpler interpretation is that Cell's initial level against Gohan is the same as it was when we last saw him fighting--so, his level against Goku--and that he powered up even further beyond when Gohan showed he could dodge all his attacks. I'm aware of this theory and it's one small shred of evidence that can legitimately be used in your favor if you look at it in that way. But... keep in mind that Gohan still didn't do better or even the same as Goku. He did far worse. (Oh no, here comes the claims that he was faking it....) Even if I take that theory to be true then it still proves nothing because at 70% Cell speed Goku does an awesome job and at 100% Cell speed Gohan does terrible. Even at the end of his fight Goku was still putting Cell on the ropes and causing significant damage to him as it was stated and illustrated. How is that proof that Gohan>Goku? Please let me know if you see my point here. That being said, that is only one way to look at it. As I've stated before, we all know what power ups look like and that is not a power up. You can say he simply was holding back in the beginning of both fights or go with my ki transfer theory that fits so nicely in the cell saga but either way, when Cell powers up against Goku that was his limit. He could easily go back and forth with choosing to hold back but he can never be stonger than the max ki output he showed everyone when he powered up that first time. Of course he could have been holding back more against Goku than Gohan but since they all know how to read ki it would be strange for Goku to state at the end of his fight that he didn't know if Cell was still holding back (a further power up) acknowledging that he was well aware of Cell's max ki after his power up and yet wasn't able to realize if he had more power to give in that particular powered up state. Obviously Cell was still holding back a legitimate power up he revealed later, but you don't get to access any of that reserved power until you actually do the power up. That's just how it works in DB. And then there's the whole illustrations that usually do a lot of talking but apparently they don't mean anything when they conflict with certain theories.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 30, 2017 21:23:57 GMT
The problem is that there are two conflicting statements: Gohan: "You were holding back." Goku: "No I wasn't." They can't both be true. Similarly, there are several hypothetical power levels: X: Goku's level against Cell Y: Goku's max Z: Gohan's max I'll be honest and say that mathing that up made it harder for me to understand your point. Sorry, I did go over it several times. I think maybe I was thrown off by the lying part which I don't think anyone is arguing. Gohan simply doesn't need to be stronger than Goku for Gohan to be not impressed by Goku's performance. If you always thought you were far weaker than someone and then in a ridiculously short time period you found out you were suddenly on par with them then of course you would no longer be impressed. If he went from being 100 times stronger than you to only being 5 to 10% stronger than you then you would no longer be impressed. You might even find it so hard to believe that you would assume the other person must be holding back. That's the meat of my argument that I explained pretty clearly in the beginning of my first post. If you can't see this perspective then of course it is going to be difficult to see my point of view. Well, we both agree on the 2nd part. I thought it was more about highlighting Goku's gamble. He sent his weaker son in to fight for him hoping he would unlock his hidden power. That was a big part of the fight when Picollo says wtf are you doing Goku sending your weaker son out there to fight for you. He's not going to unlock his rage like you think he's going to. Take the damn senzu bean and go back to fighting him.... you are stonger than your son so you go fight Cell... Ok, picollo, you're right this isn't working, give me the bean (even though I'm weaker than my son, lol), I'll go save him. it's so plain. I don't get the confusion.
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 30, 2017 21:51:40 GMT
From all I've read, your interpretation is that: 1. It is not possible for Gohan to have surpassed Goku and not notice; therefore, he did not pass up Goku. Again, I would suggest that the explanation for this problem is Gohan's character. Gohan is a humble kid. For 11 years he's had a paradigm that his dad, the first Super Saiyan, is always going to be the strongest. There probably reached a point where he and Goku were equal, but then he started getting stronger and Goku didn't. Because of his paradigm, Gohan's reaction wasn't "Huh, I'm stronger than my dad" but instead "Dad's holding back." We also do not know if the two were constantly practicing against each other--perhaps Gohan did a few punch-the-air exercises when Goku was taking a break and therefore had no way to gauge his power. 2. Cell powered down before he fought Gohan; when he went up to "full speed" he was using the PL he had against Goku. However, if Cell did power down, it had to occur off-screen and without anyone mentioning it when he fights Gohan. This is despite people mentioning when 1) Goku powered up against Cell, 2) Cell powered up against Goku, 3) Gohan powered up against Cell, 4) Gohan going SS2, 5) Cell powered up against SS2 Gohan, 6) Cell going Huge Mode against SS2 Gohan, and 7) Cell getting weaker as Semi-Perfect Cell when Gohan kicks him. This would have to be the only time in the fight when a participant's power fluctuated without commentary. Speaking of power ups, your interpretation also says that... 3. The Z-Fighters' and Cell's surprised reactions to Gohan powering up are not because Gohan has surpassed Goku, but simply because he's improved so much (becoming 2nd strongest Z-Fighter.) However, this means we're supposed to interpret these reactions... ...as being inherently different in meaning and purpose from these reactions... ...which were done to indicate Goku had surpassed everyone else. Coincidentally, Gohan's response to Goku while everyone else was freaking out was: ..."Why is everyone so amazed?" Goku does not power up again after this. This is as strong as he gets. And Gohan's reaction is "Why is everyone so impressed?" If Gohan couldn't do better, then he would still be impressed by his dad! That's how it works in Dragon Ball. You can be impressed by someone weaker than you, but you never see someone stronger and not mention it. (I'll also add that the timing of Gohan's comment, immediately after Krillin says "he's stronger than any of us!" is probably intended to be foreshadowing of how Gohan is stronger.) Interestingly, the page where Gohan finishes powering up as a SS1? That's a chapter-ender. Just like this one: Toriyama ended a chapter on Gohan achieving an incredible level of power with SS2. That seems to indicate chapter-ending powerups should be interpreted as kind of a big deal. Which Gohan's SS1 power-up wouldn't be if he was weaker than Goku. Gohan's incredible power as a Super Saiyan is only meaningful if everyone thinks he's got a chance. Cell does not know about SS2. Neither do the rest of the Z-Fighters. Cell knows he's personally holding back a lot of power, so he knows Goku's level of power is not enough to beat him. If Goku says "my son can beat you," it makes no sense for Cell to say "perhaps you weren't bluffing" unless Gohan, as a SS1, is stronger than Goku! Again, Cell doesn't know about SS2 and will not think Gohan can get any stronger until after Gohan tells him about the rage boosts. But Cell and the Z-Fighters weren't the only ones to not know about SS2. When these chapters were first coming out, the readers didn't know about SS2, either! So when Goku says "Gohan is stronger than me," was the audience's first reaction to think "Well, Gohan's weaker now, but once he unlocks his hidden transformation, then he'll be stronger" or was it supposed to be "Oh crap, Gohan's stronger than Goku!" It was probably going to be the latter, which is the simpler and more straightforward interpretation. And I don't think Toriyama's intentions were to be the former, considering Goku said "I was at my best" and Gohan's earlier response to that was "it's not that amazing." 4. Gohan is fully committed to the fight and wants to hurt/kill Cell (whatever level you're supporting.) He does not land a hit on Cell because he is too weak to do so. Your phrasing in your response to Skar was "you believe he's lying to Goku, he's going to hold back." That's not what we're saying. If Gohan was cowardly, he wouldn't have fought at all. He is willing to go and face Cell, and he'll do so at his maximum. But the will to fight isn't there. Look at this: Gohan is waiting for Cell to make the first move. He's literally standing there until Cell does something. Contrast with Goku: When Goku fights Cell, he makes the first move. This illustrates the difference between the two. Goku wants to kill Cell, but he also wants a good fight--which is why he doesn't do the Warp Kamehameha off the bat. Yes, you can mention Gohan's determined face as evidence that he's fighting to kill...but that conflicts with how Gohan apparently does not want to fight Cell, which is supported by how he tries to talk Cell out of it. Gohan can fight, he is brave enough to go and face Cell, his face indicates he's willing to at least give all this a try, but he does not have the will to fight at first, as seen by how his objective was to dodge like mad and then, when that stopped working, try and resolve the situation as peacefully as possible. This is why he only attempts one attack before he goes SS2; he hates violence. It is only after he goes SS2 that he is willing to kill (and, in fact, takes enjoyment out of torturing Cell.) Now, I may have misunderstood your points, in which case I'm sorry. But your interpretation requires taking a bunch of rather straightforward indicators and implications and seeing less-obvious meanings beneath them: 1. When Goku says, "Was our fight too tough for you?" he actually means Gohan is weaker and merely strong enough to fight at that level, not stronger than himself. 2. When Gohan says, "Well yeah, but you weren't fighting all out" he actually says this because he has a knowledge of Goku's exact strength (which he doesn't, or else he wouldn't ask) and knows Goku's holding back (which he isn't, because he said so), not because he is beyond that level and came to that conclusion through comparison. 3. When the Z-Fighters sense Gohan power up, they're actually amazed at Gohan's power simply because of how much he's improved, not because he's stronger. Despite knowing Gohan is weaker than Goku and therefore knowing Gohan has no chance of beating Cell (since none of them know about SS2), and also realizing his power directly contradicts what Goku said about Gohan being stronger, none of them mention this to Goku. 4. When Cell sees Gohan powers up, he says "I guess Goku wasn't bluffing" but actually means "Well, Goku lied, Gohan is weaker than he is, oh well, I'll fight him anyway." 5. Instead of Cell being the same level he was against Goku, he actually changes his PL without anyone commenting on it. This is the only time in the fight when such a change goes unremarked upon. 6. Gohan's lack of success against Cell has nothing to do with his mentality and is entirely because he is weak, even though Gohan's lack of attacking and direct statements to Cell saying he doesn't want to hurt him indicates he is not in an aggressive mindset. 7. Toriyama, either through incompetence or desire to be a troll, decided the best way to convey all this information would be through statements and occurrences that could be easily misinterpreted as saying Gohan is stronger. You can definitely interpret the situation this way, but it requires a lot of alternative thinking.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 31, 2017 1:02:23 GMT
Ashanark,
I will respond to your post late tonight if possible but in the meantime please post a shot of this statement you have in quotes.
aders didn't know about SS2, either! So when Goku says "Gohan is stronger than me," was the audience's first reaction to think
Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 1:17:21 GMT
It's because the part of the theory that Gohan>Goku has a flaw in it (the actual fights) that leaves the theorist to fill in the hole with their imagination (a lack of will to fight) whereas in my theory that Goku>Gohan, no such imagination needs to take place. Goku did better than Gohan and I don't have to pretend that Gohan's lack of real strength is a result of a lack of will to fight. Believing Gohan had a lack of will to fight isn't coming from a fan's imagination. It based entirely on Gohan clearly saying that he does not want to fight Cell. You're making it sound like both sides require the same amount of assumptions and theories but Gohan > Goku involves only reading the manga and going by the first interpretation that comes to mind. I didn't mean that you should change your view to match the majority or that this is a case between majority vs minority opinion. I think your interpretation is perfectly valid. I'm not arguing that it's completely 100% false because there can be multiple different but valid interpretations based on the same material. Regardless of how many possible interpretations there are, the author likely only had one in mind. I'm only asking which one do you believe Toriyama likely had in mind when he was writing the manga. He's the original author so it's not like he would be swayed by what the majority of the fan base thinks about his own story. In the manga Future Trunks special, SSJ kid Trunks was sparing with base Future Gohan so the common theory is that he had easier access to SSJ1 because he was conceived after Future Vegeta had already unlocked the transformation. I'm not sure what Toriyama's opinion is on Goten and Trunks reaching SSJ but I was more referring to Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. We do know for a fact that Goku and Vegeta achieved SSJ2 by just training really hard and Goku and Gotenks achieved SSJ3 with training as well. If all they're doing is pushing themselves then either their current SSJ form continues getting stronger indefinitely or they hit some limit and have to break through to the next transformation. When Vegeta saw Goku use SSJ2 against Yakon, he said "So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall...The Super Saiyan wall...". Also keep in mind that at the time of each new transformation, the Saiyan who achieved it was usually the strongest. Base Goku was by far the strongest during the Freeza when he was the first to become a SSJ and also the strongest SSJ2 when he revealed his SSJ3 form. It's a straightforward approach that the most powerful Saiyan at the time would be the first to achieve the next transformation. FPSSJ Goku and Gohan were still within the same relative tier so Goku could help even if he's slightly weaker. A character offering support to a stronger character has happened multiple times throughout the series. Piccolo never implied that Gohan was weaker than Goku and that only because he's a kid that he couldn't do it on his own. Piccolo was even about to go help Gohan and Goku knew that he himself stood no chance against Cell by himself. Their goal here seemed to be to go and offer support to Gohan and not switch in with him.
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Post by Andres on Jan 31, 2017 5:51:06 GMT
Post idea on forum. Idea gets argued. Everyone argues against such idea. Keep pushing idea further. Everyone keeps arguing against such idea. Relentlessly pushes idea forth. Idea gets 0% acceptance. Idea is here to stay.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 31, 2017 8:06:00 GMT
Post idea on forum. Idea gets argued. Everyone argues against such idea. Keep pushing idea further. Everyone keeps arguing against such idea. Relentlessly pushes idea forth. Idea gets 0% acceptance. Idea is here to stay. You know, you could all be a little grateful that I'm giving you something db related to chew on while we all wait for something debatable to happen in this so far slow paced special.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 31, 2017 10:44:13 GMT
Post idea on forum. Idea gets argued. Everyone argues against such idea. Keep pushing idea further. Everyone keeps arguing against such idea. Relentlessly pushes idea forth. Idea gets 0% acceptance. Idea is here to stay. Finally made it back home so here's my real response to this... So 0% acceptance, yeah that's probably how it will end but have you ever tried to change someone's mind on something when they're deeply entrenched in their beliefs? It's not easy that's for sure. Anyways, am I beating my fists against the wall for nothing? In case you're just skimming thru these posts, take a closer look: Initially I couldn't get Skar (or anyone else) to make the slightest comment recognizing he could even see my perspective on a single point. Around halfway thru he says: He still thinks gohan is stronger but at least acknowledges that it's possible he's equal in strength but absolutely cannot see where I can possibly be drawing the conclusion that Goku could be stronger than Gohan. Then in his latest post he says: So now Goku can be stronger than Gohan and I have perfectly valid reasons. He still doesn't agree with them but isn't that progress? Here's another one. The first rebuttal I got: Then halfway thru: Then the latest: See the slow chipping away that occurs when you painstakingly make your case? Sure these are made from 3 separate people but judging from the likes they all seemed to agree with the statements when they were first made.
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Post by Andres on Jan 31, 2017 11:30:20 GMT
Post idea on forum. Idea gets argued. Everyone argues against such idea. Keep pushing idea further. Everyone keeps arguing against such idea. Relentlessly pushes idea forth. Idea gets 0% acceptance. Idea is here to stay.
Finally made it back home so here's my real response to this...
So 0% acceptance, yeah that's probably how it will end but have you ever tried to change someone's mind on something when they're deeply entrenched in their beliefs? It's not easy that's for sure. Anyways, am I beating my fists against the wall for nothing? In case you're just skimming thru these posts, take a closer look:
Initially I couldn't get Skar (or anyone else) to make the slightest comment recognizing he could even see my perspective on a single point. Around halfway thru he says:
He still thinks gohan is stronger but at least acknowledges that it's possible he's equal in strength but absolutely cannot see where I can possibly be drawing the conclusion that Goku could be stronger than Gohan.
Then in his latest post he says:
So now Goku can be stronger than Gohan and I have perfectly valid reasons. He still doesn't agree with them but isn't that progress?
Here's another one.
The first rebuttal I got:
Then halfway thru:
Then the latest:
See the slow chipping away that occurs when you painstakingly make your case? Sure these are made from 3 separate people but judging from the likes they all seemed to agree with the statements when they were first made.
Foo, it wasn't a bad theory. I agreed to some of it, to some extent, same as @skar . But that doesn't mean we agreed with the original premise, that Gohan was slightly weaker than Goku.
I completely agree that it is so incredibly difficult to change someone's mind on something when they're deeply entrenched in their beliefs. But to a certain point, that's what's happening to you right here: you have made up your mind about this topic, and despite everyone's attempt to make you see what the rest sees, you still are convinced on what you say.
And that's the base of a good debater. Kudos for that. Not easy standing their ground. But one also has to know when to be open-minded and realize when to back off the pedal. You're approaching this debate with that old adage "Eat shit, millions of flies can't be wrong". In this case, all of us got to the same conclusion upong reading the original manga: Gohan seems to be stronger than Goku.
Axalon said it better than me: "Correct. This is but one reason why Gohan was stronger than Goku as a FPSS1. It's still not a match for Cell, but stronger than Goku--who is also not a match for Cell.".
Cell wanted a fight. Cell wanted a challenge. Cell wanted EXCITEMENT. Goku gave him the fight and excitement he wanted. Gohan did not.
That's why Cell wanted Goku back: he wanted to keep fighting. He was having fun. Gohan was no fun. Gohan was restraining himself. But when he wasn't, he was dealing Cell with some heavy blows. Heavier than Goku ever did without ki blasts. Goku managed some heavy hits, but Cell was perfectly controlled and balanced, stopping in mid air and smiling, or bouncing off the ring and landing on his feet. Gohan sat him on his butt with sheer brute force. Goku at full power could NOT. And that was against a Cell back at full health after eating a senzu.
But that wasn't enough. Gohan at SSJ was stronger than Goku, but still not a match for Cell. Only Gohan's hidden power could defeat the android. And that's why Cell, upon hearing about Gohan's rage induced power, decide to do what he did. He wanted to test if what Goku said was true. He was convinced no one could ever beat him, but it was impossible for him to anticipate Gohan would be THIS powerful upon unlocking SSj2.
In conclusion, in my opinion (and the interpretation all of us got upon reading the manga), Gohan was at the very least, equal to Goku's power. Much likely stronger. Doesn't seem to be any weaker at all.
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