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Post by fooshin on Jan 31, 2017 11:50:23 GMT
Believing Gohan had a lack of will to fight isn't coming from a fan's imagination. It based entirely on Gohan clearly saying that he does not want to fight Cell. You're making it sound like both sides require the same amount of assumptions and theories but Gohan > Goku involves only reading the manga and going by the first interpretation that comes to mind. What exactly am I forced to assume when almost immediately after stating that he doesn't want to fight Cell he explains why, that he will lose control and... kill him. Even though the dialog is a bit muddled in my translation, Cell backs this up when he says " I don't understand why you don't want to kill me." I'm not guessing that he just lacks the will to fight, I'm reading the explanation given directly in the comic. Gohan is an eleven year old boy who has never taken a life. He knows he can't beat Cell as ssj1 and if he goes into rage mode, ssj2, or whatever he knows that he will end up killing Cell. Those are indisputable facts about his character that proves that while he has no will to kill him, he absolutely has a will to fight him. That's why I keep repeating that that was a warning to Cell, a threat and not some admission that he wasn't willing to fight, when he clearly was. He does try with all his might to fight him as ssj1 but he is simply too weak in that form to do much of anything. That is exactly what is shown in the fight and I don't have to assume any part of it. It's in the dialog and it's in the fight. Thanks for acknowledging my point of view. I don't see a whole lot of new points being brought up so unless someone brings up some new angle to argue in the next day or so I pretty much plan on ending this. I'm going to take all the arguments that have been levied against my theory and try to write up a clear summary of the whole thing from my perspective. Perhaps you might believe Toriyama had something else in mind when you see all the evidence together instead of all these tidbits randomly scattered throughout these rebuttals. Yes, I see where you're going with that but you have to admit that there's not exactly a long enough track record to say that has to be the case. I know it's not ssj4 but Gohan achieved the latest "new form" when he got mystic and he wasn't the strongest so that's a small contradiction to the point you're trying to make. 2 times that was for sure the case. The 3rd time is what we are currently debating and then mystic would be the 4th. Ok, I admit that I didn't notice that Picollo was planning on fighting too. That second part of my statement was a pretty flawed example whereas Cell's comment that he want's Goku back in the "ring" is much more fitting. Either way, It was the first part of my statement that mattered. You said that from a story telling perspective it makes more sense that Gohan had passed up his father as ssj1 first and the shocked faces made for a great scene to the audience that look, Gohan did it, he's now #1. From my perspective, the great story telling is Goku risks it all sending his weaker son into battle on the hope that he can unlock his rage. The audience is in suspense wondering if he will do it. We see Goku routing him on in thought bubble and then later in conversation. Eventually we see Gohan isn't pulling it off and the audience's heart sinks. Picollo yells at Goku that he's a horrible father because his son is getting killed by this guy all because he took some irresponsible risk sending his weaker son in his place betting it all that he'd unlock. Goku realizes he's fucked up and the audience is like oh shit, Gohan's going to get killed, Goku get your ass in there and save him (piccolo and the other's really don't matter at that point, they're too weak anyways) Goku screams give me the bean and the audience believes that Goku who at least stood a chance before is going to do what he always does and save the day when Cell overhears there plan and swoops in real quick like to snatch the beans and all hope away. That whole part that makes the story exciting is Goku risking everything believing in his son. His son has to be in a position of weakness for all that to pan out. If his son was stronger than him then how was he ever going to go in and save the day? It wouldn't have been possible. [/quote]
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 31, 2017 17:39:59 GMT
Ashanark: He is willing to go and face Cell, and he'll do so at his maximum. See the slow chipping away that occurs when you painstakingly make your case? Sure these are made from 3 separate people but judging from the likes they all seemed to agree with the statements when they were first made. If you consider that statement to be me conceding a point, then okay. I am completely unconvinced Gohan had any will to fight Cell, as evidenced by all the pictures I showed which you did not respond to. None of us have questioned or disagreed that Gohan powered up, but Gohan being at max =/= having a will to fight. A person can be not fully powered up and still have a "will to fight" (as seen by Cell against Goku), a person can be fully powered up and have no "will to fight." When Goku went to fight Cell, his goal was to kill him. He had absolutely no problem blowing Cell's head off. When Goku sent Gohan out to fight Cell, it was to kill him. He had no problem sending his 11-year old out to kill somebody. Yet Gohan stood there waiting for Cell to make the first move. All of his initial actions were to block or dodge Cell's attacks, and not even attempting to counter. Even getting knocked into a plateau, Gohan's response was not to retaliate but walk up to Cell and say "stop this, please." The fact Gohan was talking to Cell at all instead of attacking him indicates he did not like being there, he did not like the fight, and he did not want to kill. *Also note Gohan's kick to "full speed" Cell was the first time somebody had drawn blood on him without a ki attack. Despite Goku punching/kicking him in the face multiple times during their fight, all Cell got was scuffs and spit. Thanks for acknowledging my point of view. I don't see a whole lot of new points being brought up so unless someone brings up some new angle to argue in the next day or so I pretty much plan on ending this. I'm going to take all the arguments that have been levied against my theory and try to write up a clear summary of the whole thing from my perspective. Perhaps you might believe Toriyama had something else in mind when you see all the evidence together instead of all these tidbits randomly scattered throughout these rebuttals. That would certainly be nice. Gohan was the strongest when he went mystic. Unless you're arguing SS3 Goku was stronger, in which case we might need to move this discussion to the Power Levels Thread. Ashanark, I will respond to your post late tonight if possible but in the meantime please post a shot of this statement you have in quotes. aders didn't know about SS2, either! So when Goku says "Gohan is stronger than me," was the audience's first reaction to think Thanks I don't know about you, but when... 1) Goku's Spirit Bomb failed against Frieza and he went Super Saiyan, 2) Frieza cut himself in half with his disks, 3) 19 and 20 turned out not to be the right androids, 4) Cell was the true villain, 5) Vegeta unveiled a new variant of Super Saiyan, 6) Goku unveiled a new variant of Super Saiyan, 7) Gohan went SS2, 8) Cell reverted to Semi-Perfect, blew up to kill Goku, and came back as Super Perfect, I didn't know any of those were coming. Going into the Cell Games arc, we know that 1) Goku has a plan to beat Cell despite saying he's weaker, and 2) he wants Gohan to come along. At best we can infer Gohan is stronger, but the natural assumption is probably not that Gohan has a brand-new form of Super Saiyan to unveil on top of the Mastered Super Saiyan he's already got (which was also a brand-new variant of transformation). So when Goku says "Gohan can beat Cell" I will be very impressed if your initial thought was "Oh, Gohan is currently weaker than Goku, but he'll unlock SS2 and become stronger," because I most certainly didn't, and mostly 99.99% of the fanbase didn't, either. If it was Toriyama's intention to show Gohan was still not superior to Goku, then he failed miserably in portraying it. *** People can say "you have a valid interpretation," and this is true. You are not contradicting statements from the manga, and that makes it valid. But the next step is seeing whether a valid interpretation is the best fit for the evidence presented. For example: I believe Gohan, at the time of the Cell Games, was weaker than Super Vegeta. 1. Gohan's reaction to Goku's power is not due to comparison; this does not imply he's stronger than Goku and coincidentally is no guarantee that he's stronger than Vegeta. 2. Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo's surprise at Gohan's power isn't because he's surpassed them, but because he's simply improved so much. Vegeta never directly states Gohan is stronger than him, he's just amazed at how strong "that brat" has gotten in one year when he had to train for years. Surely he would've stated it if Gohan was stronger; since he didn't, it's foolish to assume Gohan passed him up. 3. Since Gohan was not as strong as Goku, Cell fought Gohan at a reduced level, only going to "full speed"--his speed against Goku--when Gohan was dodging him. Who's to say he didn't repress himself to a level lower than he was against Vegeta? 4. Yet Vegeta was able to do more damage to Perfect Cell than SS Gohan ever did. This was even before Vegeta went and trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber a second time, which made him even stronger. 5. Cell said each of his Cell Jrs. were as strong as he was. He can only mean as strong as he was when he fought Goku, which was the strongest he'd revealed himself to be at that point. Yet Vegeta is able to put up a terrific fight against his Cell Jr. while Gohan was getting knocked around when Cell used full speed. Gohan can't keep up, but Vegeta can at least fight back. Vegeta is therefore stronger than SS Gohan. Does this interpretation contradict what the manga says? I don't think so. But is it a good interpretation? Not really. Though I don't recall anyone stating flat-out "Gohan is stronger than Vegeta," it seems clear the story was implying him to be so. Similarly, saying SS Gohan < SS Goku is a valid interpretation, and certainly better than the one I just made above. But I think the best interpretation is that Gohan was stronger than Goku, even before he went SS2, since even though Goku doesn't say "GOHAN IS STRONGER THAN ME, GUYS, EVEN AS A SUPER SAIYAN, AND HE'LL BE EVEN STRONGER WHEN HE TRANSFORMS" the story strongly implies this to be the case.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 31, 2017 19:54:55 GMT
If you consider that statement to be me conceding a point, then okay. I wouldn't even go that far. It's self-admittedly cherry picking three different quotes from three different people and glomping them together and somehow proclaiming that the argument has been chipped away, on the basis that just because people have liked the arguments presented that it's the same argument, and that progress has been achieved. I don't think that's what he's arguing in this particular instance, but either way Mystic Gohan shouldn't be considered in the first place as a counter to @skar 's theory. It's an unusual powerup that isn't even a part of the Super Saiyan line of powerups and involves sitting around doing nothing. Including this powerup would be like also including the Kaioken and Majin powerups as counters.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 31, 2017 20:39:51 GMT
Foo, it wasn't a bad theory. I agreed to some of it, to some extent, same as @skar . But that doesn't mean we agreed with the original premise, that Gohan was slightly weaker than Goku. I completely agree that it is so incredibly difficult to change someone's mind on something when they're deeply entrenched in their beliefs. But to a certain point, that's what's happening to you right here: you have made up your mind about this topic, and despite everyone's attempt to make you see what the rest sees, you still are convinced on what you say. And that's the base of a good debater. Kudos for that. Not easy standing their ground. But one also has to know when to be open-minded and realize when to back off the pedal. You're approaching this debate with that old adage " Eat shit, millions of flies can't be wrong". In this case, all of us got to the same conclusion upong reading the original manga: Gohan seems to be stronger than Goku. Andres, All I'm doing here is presenting an argument I believe is valid (and yes the most likely of all valid arguments) and seeing if anyone can poke holes in it. Failing to see that I'm at least trying to give the "rebutters" valid reasons why I don't see it. Of course I've made up my mind on the subject but that is only until I'm presented with an alternative view that looks like a better fit than my own. Many times on this forum I've admitted I was wrong because I didn't look at a particular piece of evidence or see a particular angle. I know it's not your job to keep track of such things but let me assure you I do have an open mind. That being said, I see your points, and although none of them are new to the argument I will still gladly give you a response to each of them. Well, the first line doesn't really say anything other than just Axalon's claim that they are both similar in power but that Gohan is stronger and he's not giving any evidence, just making a statement. The 2nd line says Cell wanted a fight and Goku gave a good one and Gohan did not. On it's face that would suggest that maybe Goku gave a better fight because he was stronger but if we have to look for a deeper meaning then... ... perhaps your point of view is that Goku's techniques were so far and away better than Gohan's that Gohan's significant enough pl advantage was beyond utterly useless? Keep in mind that Goku's superior techniques were mostly punches and kicks and an elbow, a huge spam ki blast and the 2 times he added IT into the mix once with a kamehameha. The punches and kicks showed visible damage and knocked him back, twice slamming his ass on the ring hard before he bounced back up. The simple rage ki blast spamming (made famous as a last ditch desperation attack by vegeta) was not a superior technique but done by someone with Goku's Power level was plenty enough that Cell said "You forced me to put up my barrier. You're attack deserves to be praised... You also hurt more than just my pride" Goku's power level was enough to significantly hurt cell and force him to use his cheat force field even without Goku using his IT cheat. Goku had no problem hurting cell even after his speed and without using any special techniques. ... perhaps Gohan had the strength but had no will to fight which is strange since he actually had no issue at all fighting him. Well, other than that he sucked but we can take that for face value that he was weaker than Goku or we can just keep digging deeper with the assumptions that I keep being accused of. Anyways, I've already gone into the details heavily on this one but I see ashanark bringing it up some more so I'll just keep continuing my points on this with him. ... perhaps Gohan fought a much stronger and faster Cell than Goku did. Do you also choose to ignore the illustrations which definitively show the speed increases were both the same in both fights (perhaps not the amount of speed but the fact that he was doing it at all?) then we have to somehow assume that the mere statement of "use my full speed on you" somehow constitutes a legitimate power up. If mere words can cause an invisible power up then why does he need to be shown powering down later? He clearly fights with the same illustrations in the beginning of Gohan's fight so if you're convinced that doesn't matter then maybe that's some small proof that he was fighting Cell initially at the same speed as he was with Goku after he went speedy but you have to willfully choose to turn a blind eye to illustrations that are there for a reason. And unlike Skar's suggestion that I'm comparing illustrations between "nappa and buu saga", I am not. This is minutes apart, practically in the same fight. 1.Was Gohan restraining himself? That would require him to lie to his father about doing his best so that's not taking things at face value. That also puts you in the akward position of trying to explain why he wouldn't do his best when he willing chooses to face off with Cell in the first place. A much simpliar answer to the question of why he would do poorly is that he's weaker and not that there was some strange hidden motive. I've already debunked the "I don't want to fight you" comment as being a threat and I've yet to hear a good rebuttal to that so unless you got one... 2.Was he dealing Cell some "heavy blows?" First off, he only hit him one time, unlike Goku. The one time he kicked him it was when Cell was trying to get him angry and got sloppy. If his motivation is to torture the boy isn't it reasonable that he's not fighting him as seriously and that he's likely to be taken off guard. This only confirms my theory that Gohan was going all out because the first time Cell drops his guard Gohan doesn't hesitate to attack. He's not holding back, just waiting for the right time to strike like any good fighter would do when they know they're the underdog. 3.Without ki blasts Goku landed several hits and left marks and blood trickle initially causing him to slam on the ground. Later he kicks him and causes him to slam on the ground after the IT. Both times Cell saw the attack coming (yes, even after the IT) and was able to recover some considerable distance away. With Gohan, Cell was screwing around and got hit unexpectantly. Yes, he went down but it was just right there, not 50 feet away. He was knocked down, but was not knocked back.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 31, 2017 21:57:37 GMT
From all I've read, your interpretation is that: 1. It is not possible for Gohan to have surpassed Goku and not notice; therefore, he did not pass up Goku. Again, I would suggest that the explanation for this problem is Gohan's character. Gohan is a humble kid. For 11 years he's had a paradigm that his dad, the first Super Saiyan, is always going to be the strongest. There probably reached a point where he and Goku were equal, but then he started getting stronger and Goku didn't. Because of his paradigm, Gohan's reaction wasn't "Huh, I'm stronger than my dad" but instead "Dad's holding back." We also do not know if the two were constantly practicing against each other--perhaps Gohan did a few punch-the-air exercises when Goku was taking a break and therefore had no way to gauge his power. Is it possible for Gohan to pass up Goku and not notice it? That point by itself I suppose I can't argue. As I stated before in a purely hypothetical sense. If you look at the Rosat training, then let's just say that Gohan surpassed Goku in the last month of their training there. That seems reasonable if he is going to have a significant enough measurable increase over Goku. So let's say they are sparring during the last month there and Gohan keeps easily kicking his father's ass. Don't you think he would notice he was stronger. You think Goku is the kind of guy that would just let his son win over and over? That's not at all his style. He might hold himself to Gohan's level and Gohan might get in a few good licks but not Gohan winning easily over and over. The point being is that Goku can always fake being weaker but absolutely cannot fake being stronger. Yeah, you could poke holes in that and claim they just mediated for the last couple months and so Gohan would never know but I'm trying to be real with you so at least try to see my point on this one. If the mere mention of I'm going to go faster than you now counts as a legitimate power up (and not that I was simply holding back my speed at the moment) then why does he have to show anything to power down? Every power up you mentioned above was clearly shown to be a clear visibly indicated power up (lights blasting, fists clenching, aura growing, shouting, etc.), not just mere words. The speed illustrations do the bulk of the talking here. Haha, nice comparison. Notice anything different?... When Goku powers up the author makes a clear point of having Krillin declare in no uncertain terms that Goku is now the strongest. Guess what doesn't happen when Gohan powers up? I wonder why... I simply refuse to answer this anymore until you tell me in no uncertain terms that you understand that Gohan was always the weakling in the group, just barely above krillin. Were talking from Raditz, to vegeta, to freeza minions to ginyu, to freeza, to all the androids all the way thru numerous fights up until perfect cell, he was the weakling. The fact that he went from that to surpassing all other fighters except Goku (but nearly matching him) in one year is going to be shocking to everyone present except Goku. Please acknowledge that first or this will never go anywhere. Again acknowledge my statement above and you will know if that was a big deal. I made this crystal clear in my skar response. He made it perfectly clear then and later that he wasn't talking about Gohan's ability to beat him being the germ of truth but that Gohan was not a joke as he initially thought. That would be a great source of proof if it weren't for Gohan's comments that he was able to unlock some of Gohan's hidden powers. That quote is the direct hint to the audience that Gohan has an ace up his sleeve that will give him the win. Take that single quote out and yeah you got a great argument, no doubt. This is just one small correction that has nothing to do with the argument but I just want to point out that Goku does not want to kill Cell. AT made it clear from after DKP all the way up to and including buu that Goku is no longer a killer and never wants to kill. Certainly he will kill if he's forced to and that is exactly what happens in that moment in the fight. Cell directly threatened the earth with his Kamehameha. Only when Cell use the earth as a hostage in the fight is he no longer fighting fair and that is when Goku decides to do his kill move. I'm 100% sure that had his blast worked Goku would have expressed regret that he had to do that. Yes, he is literally just standing there.... with his arms up in a fighting position ready for a fight. You mistake fighting strategy with a lack of will to fight. If you know your opponent is stronger then you then you're likely not to go charging in head first into disaster. You might actually hold back and wait on the defensive for the right opportunity to arrive and then strike. Kind of like exactly what happens when he does finally get a kick in. Goku being closer in strength to Cell doesn't have to be as cautious. This reminds me of when Vegeta scolds krillin and Gohan after they attacked Guldo head on. There actually is strategy in DB fighting. You shouldn't mistake calculated caution with a lack of will to fight. 1. Yes, you got it. Was it too tough, do you think you'll get killed right away like vegeta would or do you at least have a fighting chance. Yeah dad I won't get killed right away and I can try if you believe my hidden powers will come out. (all stated in his pep talk.) 2. I never said he had knowledge of Goku's strength at that moment. He clearly thought his father was far stronger than him as he always was and was shocked that he narrowed the gap by so much. It is clear that throughtout there training Gohan thought the gap was closing only because his father must be holding back. None of that gives a shred of evidence that he's stonger or weaker in and of itself. 3. Simply because of how much he's improved... hell yes! What a feat! Despite knowing Gohan is weaker... they all heard Goku's pep talk in which he hints at hidden powers. They've all witnessed Gohan release these powers in the past so, they are still skeptical but willing to see how far it goes. Eventually when Picollo sees Gohan's plan isn't working he tries to pull the plug. 4. Addressed this so many times... Germ of truth = he's not a joke. 5. Addressed above. It wasn't a pl increase. simply wasn't holding back his speed (or ki transfer technique, but whatever). You don't need to show going back down if you never showed going up in the first place. 6. Yes Gohan's lack of success is directly due to his lack of power. Gohan didn't hesitate to attack when he could. And the statement you give is wrong. Gohan told cell he didn't want to KILL him. He was getting his ass kicked as ssj1 and remembered what his father said about unlocking. He knew his only hope was to go there and that would involve killing Cell which he didn't want to do so he gave him a clear warning, nothing more. 7. Please, pretty please show me the quote in the manga where AT makes the statement that "Gohan is stronger."
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Post by fooshin on Jan 31, 2017 22:15:31 GMT
*Also note Gohan's kick to "full speed" Cell was the first time somebody had drawn blood on him without a ki attack. Despite Goku punching/kicking him in the face multiple times during their fight, all Cell got was scuffs and spit. Think I just responded to the rest of this but to this part, I believe you're wrong. After Goku's first volley against cell it appears he has a blood trickle and Cell wipes it away. I admit I don't have the clearest copy of the manga but are your sure that's spit he's wiping from the corner of his mouth? You missed what was going on in that conversation. Skar's point was that it's always the strongest that get the next transformation. Gohan (weak ssj2 when he can do it) was not the strongest fighter when AT gave him the next highest new form. The rest of the details are in my previous quote. Like I said, AT hinted there was something coming when Goku made the statement that Gohan had his hidden powers as a secret weapon. We all know about this from the many times he's done his rage boosts. Take away that hint and you're right. That hint is super important, please don't disregard it because good writers drop hints like that for the readers to pick up on. It sets everything up for ssj2 and the whole way the story eventually unfolds. Also, I would assume that like me, 99% of the fan base didn't know what was going on. Is there something wrong with a little mystery in a story? Does the author have to make everything clear and in no uncertain terms. Perhaps we all just read thru it quickly and didn't really pick up the pieces and make any true sense of it all until it was all over. I guarantee you no one was saying but, Gohan is 'fpssj" like Axalon was suggesting when vegteta saw him come out of the Rosat. The audience had no idea. I suspect different people made different sense of it but later down the road they get into these types of forums where there's already a mainstream opinion established on it and being the minor point that it is, no one bothers to challenge the legitimacy of it and so there it stays. *** Great, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. First establish there are no flaws in my interpretation. Next, once everyone has tried I'll present one solid argument addressing all sides putting everything in perspective. Perhaps I'll be convincing then, who knows. In the meantime, keep coming up with angles of attack and that can only strengthen my argument or sink it. It's really all up to you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 23:10:31 GMT
So now Goku can be stronger than Gohan and I have perfectly valid reasons. He still doesn't agree with them but isn't that progress? I said that after you implied you were being bullied for not accepting the majority opinion. As the debate went on, your stance seemed less likely to me because it required more assumptions that I originally thought. I do agree that it's a possible interpretation and that it could be valid depending on how you look at it but I still don't see it as being any more likely to be what the author intended than I did at the beginning of the discussion to be honest. There's a reason why the majority of the fanbase assumes SSJ Gohan was stronger than SSJ Goku during the Cell Games. It's not because they're stuck in their ways or they lack a certain level of comprehensive skills but because it's the simplest interpretation and isn't contradicted. If it was my choice, Goku would've always remained the strongest Z fighter because he trained the hardest and half-Saiyan potential would always be slightly lower than that of a full-blooded Saiyan's. I'm not arguing what my preference is and only what I assumed the author intended for his story based on the evidence he left. The thing is I can't really believe that Toriyama would ever have something that complicated in mind. All the evidence in the manga or answers he has given in interviews have always been pretty straightforward. He's not really the type of author that leaves multiple subtle hints and clues hoping that fans would piece them together and he usually tries to make things easy to understand. If there's anything unclear left in the manga, it's usually because he included something without considering the implications but it wasn't his intention to confuse the fans. I get what you mean but Mystic isn't an actual form and it's only Gohan's adult potential. It's not something that Gohan could just train and transform into and it required Old Kai to obtain that power. I was referring to the SSJ forms that a Saiyan to achieve on their own as in SSJ1 through SSJ3. I just see it as simple shonen storytelling that the strongest Saiyan at the time would be the first to reveal the next transformation.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 1, 2017 10:29:03 GMT
Skar,
Of course I realize the differences and I pointed that out but I just wanted to add the mystic because the overall idea is the same. One of the sayians (because it's always about the sayians) is going to reach the next level/new state/transformation, whatever you want to call it and this time it wasn't the stongest character to receive it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 18:30:49 GMT
Skar, Of course I realize the differences and I pointed that out but I just wanted to add the mystic because the overall idea is the same. One of the sayians (because it's always about the sayians) is going to reach the next level/new state/transformation, whatever you want to call it and this time it wasn't the stongest character to receive it. If we're assuming the other transformations had requirements like reaching a certain threshold, the Mystic power-up wouldn't really be the same. The only requirement was Gohan being patient enough to sit down for several hours but he could've been weaker or stronger and likely would've gotten the same power-up since it was only said to be his potential. Another point I remembered is that Goku and Gohan exited the Hyperbolic Time Chamber a few hours early. If Gohan's SSJ form still had room for improvement and weaker than Goku's, what would be the reason for Goku not training him until they're at least equal? Goku had his full faith in Gohan's SSJ2 but it wouldn't make sense for Goku to catch a glimpse of it and think "That should be enough for Cell! Time to go!" when he has more than enough time to further train Gohan's SSJ1 knowing that it's weaker than his own.
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Post by SSJ4 GOD Multi on Feb 1, 2017 20:53:04 GMT
I feel like this is Fooshin vs the world right now lol. Can't we agree to disagree? This has been going on for days over one guy's opinion vs everyone elses. If he believes Gohan was weaker he can think that because it doesn't look as if anyone is changing their opinion on this.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 1, 2017 21:34:52 GMT
If we're assuming the other transformations had requirements like reaching a certain threshold, the Mystic power-up wouldn't really be the same. The only requirement was Gohan being patient enough to sit down for several hours but he could've been weaker or stronger and likely would've gotten the same power-up since it was only said to be his potential. I just mean that I believe your point is that the author only gives the latest form/new state/transformation, whatever to the saiyan that is the strongest at the time. Thereby Gohan in Cell saga was the strongest (in your opinion) and he got the new form (ssj2). The specifics about how the new form was gained should be irrelevant to the point that the author gives the form to the strongest. Am I missing your point? That's the problem right there. You're asking me to make assumptions and when I do they're never as valid as yours so here's mine for what it's worth. First, to your specific logic: If Gohan could still improve to goku's level then why didn't they stay longer - well, if Goku's level could still improve to Gohan's level why didn't they stay also? That would have to imply that Gohan had a higher limit than Goku and while that's open to debate, there's nothing I'm aware of to suggest it. Goku really had no idea what was needed to defeat Cell but he knew whatever it was Gohan already had it with ssj2(see disclaimer below). Did Gohan need to be as strong as Goku in ssj1 if Goku didn't even know how strong Cell was? No, he did not. I'm sure your scenario that he saw ssj2 and said that's enough is probably what happened. Hypothetically, Goku hit his limit and knew it wasn't a sure thing but continued searching for something more. After many days, weeks or months he noticed he was starting to get weaker but sees Gohan break thru the barrier he could not. Once he sees that, and realizing his search for his trigger isn't happening in the Rosat he decides to call it quits. Goku states that if he stayed in the Rosat any longer then his body would only get weaker meaning he had mastered ssj1 and since he couldn't discover his trigger for ssj2 there was no point for him to be there any longer. You could say Goku was greedy and realizing he was at his limit and would only get weaker and seeing his son had just surpassed him with ssj2 it didn't matter to him where Gohan's ssj1 was. He already knew it was close enough to his to not matter. I know Goku would have never left that room if he felt he could get any stronger regardless of what his son accomplished. I'm not at all a fan of the idea of limits to certain states and I want to believe that all the limit talk was because AT truly did intend to end dbz after cell saga but that's just me. Ssj2 disclaimer: After leaving the Rosat Goku states that there wasn't much point in going back in because they were pretty much at their limits. In korin's tower, korin states "are you confident because of your training in the Rosat? and goku laughs and says "you could say that." Gohan thinks, "Ive been with dad all that time, and I didn't notice a thing." So the manga is no where near as clear as the anime which you are referencing but yeah, it's pretty safe to assume that Goku clearly saw Gohan go ssj2 briefly in the Rosat in the exact way it was depicted in the anime. I don't like referencing the anime for proof since you're bringing it up it is the only thing that makes sense. That being said, when he saw ssj2 he knew Gohan had more than enough power to defeat Cell and it really didn't matter much what else they did. Perhaps by reconnecting with real life for the remaining time Goku thought Gohan could trigger it easier when he eventually faced Cell, I don't really know. It's just tons of speculation here. Was it really the authors intent to end the story after cell saga and Goku really was at his limit, I have no idea. [/quote]
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Post by fooshin on Feb 1, 2017 21:48:44 GMT
I feel like this is Fooshin vs the world right now lol. Can't we agree to disagree? This has been going on for days over one guy's opinion vs everyone elses. If he believes Gohan was weaker he can think that because it doesn't look as if anyone is changing their opinion on this. Perhaps, but keep in mind that since my initial post stating my theory, I've done nothing but respectfully defend attacks against it. As long as they keep coming, I'm obligated to the person taking the time to write them to defend my idea as long as it is still viable. It's clear that no one would be spending the kind of time that they have with these attacks unless they felt like my arguments were reasonable enough to keep it going. The fact that the majority of these attacks are coming from 2 respected and highly knowledgeable mods is quite the honor I must say.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 0:30:07 GMT
I just mean that I believe your point is that the author only gives the latest form/new state/transformation, whatever to the saiyan that is the strongest at the time. Thereby Gohan in Cell saga was the strongest (in your opinion) and he got the new form (ssj2). The specifics about how the new form was gained should be irrelevant to the point that the author gives the form to the strongest. Am I missing your point? The specifics do matter because the basis of that theory was that there's a minimum requirement before the next form was reached. Mystic wasn't a normal SSJ form and technically wasn't a form at all with any requirements so it doesn't make sense to put in the category as the others. It would be like trying to refute it by giving an example of Oozaru. Any Saiyan could transform into an Oozaru regardless of their power as long as they had a tail. Any of the Saiyans could become "mystic" as long as they had Old Kai perform his ritual. We know based on the fact that it took Vegeta seven years to become a SSJ2 and surpass Gohan (or barely reach it I wasn't sure) it was much harder for the full-blooded Saiyans to reach SSJ2 than Gohan. Goku said he wasn't used to SSJ3 during the Buu saga so that could suggest he had only recently reached the form and it could've taken him a long time to reach SSJ2. In one year, Goku taught Gohan how to transform into SSJ and how it master it so it wouldn't have taken much longer to close the gap between him and Gohan if Gohan was weaker. I still consider them both in the same tier with Gohan only being slightly stronger in FPSSJ likely due to being a half-Saiyan. It's been said that half-Saiyans have more potential so maybe they have a little more potential in each form. I don't know for sure but Goku decided to leave the Hyperbolic Time Chamber when he felt they were done with their training. It would've taken a lot longer for Goku to try and unlock SSJ2 than it would've taken him to further train Gohan to at least match his own power.
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Post by Ashanark on Feb 2, 2017 2:30:11 GMT
This is my last reply, restating the points Skar, Axalon and I made so you can respond to them easily. There's 10. 1. Goku cuts the HTC session short. Why? His plan is for Gohan to hold out until he goes SS2. Gohan has a better chance of survival if he's as strong as possible. Either a) Gohan had reached his limit (but you don't like the idea of limits), b) Goku saw no need to make Gohan stronger (why?) or c) Gohan was stronger and Goku was running out of ways to hide it. 2. Gohan is the only one who can go SS2 at this time. Why? Because Goku isn't trying to become one, which doesn't make sense if he's stronger. Does he need an emotional push? But you'd think he'd figure a SS2 version of himself would have a better chance than a SS2 Gohan, so he'd still try if he could. Does SS2 require a minimum level of power? But if Gohan's at it, Goku should be too. If Gohan's stronger, though, then Goku's not being lazy; Gohan going SS2 is the only option. 3. Gohan's reactions. He comments about Goku three times: with Korin, against Cell, and when Goku gives up. All the Z-Fighters can keep up with Goku's movements, but they're amazed. Gohan's unimpressed, and wondering why Goku's holding back so much. Why? If Goku's stronger, why is this the first time in Gohan's life he isn't worshipful of his dad's power? Why's he surprised his dad's max is so low? 4. Goku's statement to Cell. "The next fighter can beat you." Cell says, "So he's stronger than both of us?" Goku says, "Yes." > Goku says Gohan is stronger than both him and Cell, knowing about SS2 > Cell doesn't know about SS2 yet > Gohan powers up as a SS1 > Cell says, "Goku wasn't bluffing." Conclusion: in Cell's eyes, Goku would've lied completely if Gohan was weaker as a SS1 than he was. 5. Goku's statement to the Z-Fighters. "I've been unlocking Gohan's power in the HTC." > Goku says Gohan is stronger than him, knowing about SS2 > Z-Fighters don't know about SS2 yet > Gohan powers up as a SS1 > Z-Fighters don't say Goku lied. Conclusion: in the Z-Fighter's eyes, Goku would've lied if Gohan was weaker as a SS1 than he was. Gohan would stand no chance (since the stronger Goku failed), and they would panic. But they don't. 6. Cell says "I'll use my real speed." We don't see him power-down. Nobody mentions he's weaker. More importantly, when he says he's going "real speed" there is no power-up sequence here against SS1 Gohan like there was against Goku. If Cell's at a lower level using this "real speed" than he was against Goku, it's not actually his "real speed." So either Cell magically gained the ability to power-up instantly because he's Cell, or he a) reduced his PL offscreen, b) had nobody mention it and then c) magically gained the ability to power-up instantly because he's Cell. The first option requires two fewer assumptions than the second. 7. Gohan, even before SS2, is the only character to draw blood on Cell with a physical attack. The ones where he's not bleeding are during the fight with Goku. 8. You argue that if Gohan was stronger, somebody would've said so. I don't like this thinking. Somebody not saying "Gohan is stronger" doesn't mean Gohan must therefore be weaker; conversely, somebody not saying "Gohan is weaker" doesn't mean Gohan must therefore be stronger. Considering how often characters are wrong about PLs, we readers must often use situational evidence to infer strength. 9. You bring up that Toriyama drew the same speed lines for Cell when he fought Goku and when he used "real speed" against Gohan. I haven't taken the time to confirm this. However, when Skar said Toriyama's done this sort of thing since Nappa (which I haven't confirmed), your response was, in effect, "Well, that's different." My opinion is that speed lines are part of Toriyama's artstyle and not a hard indicator of PL. Stuff like the sparks in a SS2's aura are, but speed lines aren't. 10. You say Gohan is weaker than Goku because he did worse against Cell. Are you saying how well a person does in a fight is only determined by strength? Gohan did not have the same desire to fight as Goku had. > Goku makes the first move; Gohan waits for Cell. > When Goku dodges, he counters; when Gohan dodges, he waits for Cell. > Goku's okay with blowing Cell's head off; Gohan gets blasted into a plateau and says, "Cell, please stop, I don't want to hurt you." > Goku went into the fight thinking "If all else fails I'll teleport in front of this guy's face and blast him to HFIL." Gohan went into the fight thinking "I really don't want to kill this guy." Goku was willing to kill; Gohan wasn't. This doesn't mean Goku enjoys killing, just that he's more of a warrior. Coincidentally, a weak Gohan getting beat up by a suppressed Cell looks exactly the same as a strong Gohan getting beat up by a stronger Cell.My interpretation relies on two assumptions. One: Gohan thought Goku was stronger because Goku has always been stronger, not because Goku was actually stronger. He's overestimating his dad out of respect for him--a mistake Cell makes, too. Two: Gohan didn't appear to do as well against Cell because he was not as committed to the fight. Also, because he was fighting a stronger Cell. Anyway, I'm done. Thanks for your time.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 2, 2017 9:24:31 GMT
The specifics do matter because the basis of that theory was that there's a minimum requirement before the next form was reached. Mystic wasn't a normal SSJ form and technically wasn't a form at all with any requirements so it doesn't make sense to put in the category as the others. It would be like trying to refute it by giving an example of Oozaru. Any Saiyan could transform into an Oozaru regardless of their power as long as they had a tail. Any of the Saiyans could become "mystic" as long as they had Old Kai perform his ritual. Oh, well that's a bummer then cause I liked where you were going with the angle I mistook. Anyways, if we're back to the minimum requirement I thought I had more or less debunked that awhile back but here's what I said: I'm well aware of this theory and there's not enough information to really say what the minimum thresholds are. You're not exactly talking about something that can be proven much at all so it's not really worth mentioning as support for your theory. I do believe that it was heavily implied that Vegeta had surpassed Goku's base but struggled to find his trigger so that one appears to conflict. Can't hardly use the current argument as an example for obvious reasons. It's difficult to say how strong Goten and Trunks were when they transformed as they were mostly a gag but we do see trunks in a mere 100g struggling to walk which would heavily imply that he was far weaker than Goku and yet he still transformed. Goku and Vegeta in buu saga is a can of worms. If you take DBM into account (just cause I respect Saligir's opinion) it seems pretty clear that u7 Vegeta who was being defeated by the ginyu force went ssj so he had to have been extremely weak compared to Goku vs Freeza. Not sure if I missed one but my own personal take on that theory is only that there is a bit of a min threshold but when we saw the characters doing it in the manga, it was never meant to imply that they hadn't already far passed those thresholds. They still need to find their own personal triggers. It's mostly kid trunks struggling in the mere 100g that, as much as I'm sure we all agree is lame, really goes to show that the minimum theory doesn't hold water in the manga. You'll never find me arguing against the idea that the hybrids are savants when it comes to increasing their power. That goes without question. Now, does by default that also mean they have a higher threshold within states... I'd say there's no evidence to support such a claim. If only Old Kai also unlocked Goku's potential we'd have a good answer. If anything Future Trunks is some minor proof against such a theory. He is much older and trained all his life and took it seriously unlike gohan and yet he never seemed to out pace or out do his father in spite of all the huge hybrid bonuses. Yes, he figured out ussj, but that turned out to be a flop. I certainly don't question that Gohan was increasing his power much faster than his father could but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to how strong they were against Cell. Either way, I appreciate the new angle but I feel like since I've given at least an equal example as to what this scenario could mean, assumption to assumption, in my last post then I think it's safe to say that this route doesn't provide proof to either side.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 2, 2017 9:41:12 GMT
Ashanark, Ok, I'll try to find the time tomorrow to give you a good rebuttal to these. In the meantime 2 things: #1 I just noticed Cell got kicked in one side of his face and got a bruise/scuff and yet he's bleeding from the other side. He also got knocked down on his ass but that shouldn't have done that... so strange. 7. Gohan, even before SS2, is the only character to draw blood on Cell with a physical attack. The ones where he's not bleeding are during the fight with Goku. #2 Just cause I find it amusing, I'll let Axalon respond to this one. Eh, a minor blood trickle is nothing. SS1 Gohan kicked Cell in the face and made him bleed, and that just got Cell more interested.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 14:52:21 GMT
It's mostly kid trunks struggling in the mere 100g that, as much as I'm sure we all agree is lame, really goes to show that the minimum theory doesn't hold water in the manga. I already this point in a different comment but I'll give a more detailed response. Trunks and Goten seemed to be an exception to the rule because they had easy access to SSJ with very little training compared to the other Saiyans and it was never implied they suffered anything that triggered the transformation. If you're saying they don't need a minimum requirement, they would need some traumatic experience to trigger at least but that wasn't implied either. In the Future Trunks special, SSJ Trunks was sparing with base Future Gohan so he was initially a very weak SSJ in the future as well. It's very likely they inherited SSJ from their fathers because Gohan who was conceived before Goku reached SSJ had to train much harder than them to unlock SSJ. Despite accessing SSJ at an early age, Future Trunks was still around the same tier as Vegeta as they trained together and wasn't able to unlock SSJ2 at that time. That would lead me to assume that Trunks had a "hereditary advantage" compared to Gohan in SSJ because he was conceived after Vegeta had reached the form but would still need to train just as hard as Gohan to reach SSJ2. If you're going to say that this completely debunks the theory that there's a minimum requirement then you would have to provide a good explanation why Saiyans were able to transform further with only training. Goku unlocked SSJ2 and SSJ3 in Other World, Vegeta unlocked SSJ2 on Earth, and Gotenks unlocked SSJ2 and SSJ3 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Remember that Goten and Trunks individually were still only at SSJ1 by the time Gotenks reached SSJ3 and implied to still be weaker than Piccolo. The only difference between them and Gotenks is that he's fusion and so much stronger than either of them individually. They didn't spend all that much time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber so most of their time as Gotenks could've went to trying to unlock SSJ2 and SSJ3 since Gotenks was given a high starting point from fusion. That still didn't drastically increase their individual power. One example that implies there are limits to each form is the fact Buu saga SSJ2 Gohan was still stronger than SSJ Goku and Vegeta. Despite Gohan losing energy and barely training and Goku and Vegeta training diligently for seven years, their SSJ1 never surpassed his weakest SSJ2. I don't think they're equally plausible assumptions. If Goku was at his limit in SSJ1, the only way to go would be to try and unlock SSJ2. Based on what we've seen later on in the story, that would've taken a long time so it's understandable that he didn't think it was possible at that point. On the other hand, Goku further training Goku to match his own power wouldn't take that much time. At the bare minimum, Gohan should be at least equal to Goku when they left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. There would have to be a good reason why Goku wouldn't be willing to spend the extra few month or months to give Gohan a better chance against Cell. Please don't cherrypick quotes because they usually get taken out of context. If that's part of a different debate, there was likely more to it than just that particular line. Gohan was clearly still weaker than Cell but Gohan making him bleed was meant to show that that gap between him and Cell was closer than the gap between Goku and Cell because he was able to do something to Cell that Goku wasn't capable of.
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Post by Axalon on Feb 3, 2017 0:12:03 GMT
Please don't cherrypick quotes because they usually get taken out of context. If that's part of a different debate, there was likely more to it than just that particular line. Yeah, that was in reference to Gast vs. SS3 Emperor Ghost Vegeta with Gohan kicking Cell as a reference, and a veiled throwback to the slog that was the Dabura vs. Gohan debate. Point still stands on that one by the way. Given that I've been completely ignored save for a cherrypicked quote here or there that means nothing given that Gohan still damaged Cell more in one kick than Goku did in multiple attacks if we don't count the Warp Kamehameha, (minor damage as it was, it was still more) and the statement that I've apparently only ever made a claim about Gohan's strength being superior to Goku's without posting any evidence whatsoever despite multiple scans, quotes, and posts to the contrary, I'm likewise out of here.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 3, 2017 12:36:48 GMT
1. Goku cuts the HTC session short. Why? His plan is for Gohan to hold out until he goes SS2. Gohan has a better chance of survival if he's as strong as possible. Either a) Gohan had reached his limit (but you don't like the idea of limits), b) Goku saw no need to make Gohan stronger (why?) or c) Gohan was stronger and Goku was running out of ways to hide it. Your question is why does Goku cut the session short but you add that his plan is to hold out until gohan goes ssj2? Not sure I'll answer this correctly cause of the way you framed that question but I'll just say that based only on what is stated in the manga that Goku believed they had reached their limits and any more time in their would only make him weaker. Specifically that is why he decided to leave as stated. (btw, I can state that I don't like the idea of this or that all day long but that doesn't mean I use my own opinion as the basis for anything in a cannon argument). That is specifically why they cut the session short and never went back. That being said, what was Goku's plan? Well, considering when he left the room he didn't know if Cell was even still alive (as stated), it's hard to say he had a plan. He didn't know if Cell was alive and he didn't know how powerful Cell was. What he did know is that he had hit his limit in the Rosat and that Gohan had unlocked something that even if he were to lose to Cell, Gohan could still step in to easily win (assuming he was able to unlock). Now, where does any part of these stated facts prove that one fighter's limit was higher than the other, I can't say. So how is this a good reason to point to proof of anything, I don't know. a) Yes, Gohan had reached his ssj1 limit as stated but started to unlock something else... the big mystery for the reader b) No, as stated they had reached their ssj1 limits. The problem with going beyond had to deal with triggers and inside the Rosat was not the best place to do so. (yes, my assumption based on evidence that I can expand on if requested) c) Gohan was stronger and Goku was running out of ways to hide it. YES! Exactly why it would be so hard for Gohan to actually be stronger than Goku. There is no motivation for Goku to dupe his son into believing he is weaker than him. This strongly implies that Goku still had to be at least a little stronger than Gohan as ssj1 or he would have never been able to hide it. Get ready cause I'm about to debunk that minimum limit crap... Goku states he is at his limit as ssj1 (not my opinion, stated as fact). If the problem wasn't the trigger and simply that he wasn't strong enough then he would never be able to get there as he is already at his limit as stated (he cannot get any stronger period.). Of course Goku is trying to find the next level but he believes that it can't be found in the Rosat (again my assumption). Goku found his first trigger in real combat with the loss of Krillin and all the other things that were going on. All he was getting in the Rosat was non stop training with his son. He would never find his trigger there. His son on the other hand has a completely different trigger and was already getting there. Why didn't Goku stay there longer to keep pushing Gohan's trigger more? I'd say the plot demanded he did not but regardless of that it, the ssj2 part has zero to do with the argument here so I won't speculate more on that mystery. Zero proof here either way. You're making me a liar if I answer that question. Go back and look at the answer I gave to this at least a half dozen times. My answer makes complete sense and deserves an acknowledgement at a minimum and a clear reason why you think it's not a good enough one if you're being generous. Reactions do not prove one way or the other. Yes you could say they imply (your assumption) that he is stronger but not at all if my assumption is correct. My translation doesn't say this, and I've specifically asked for a shot of this so I can see what you're looking at and haven't got one so... Even if you have one, in that translation he is obviously talking about his hidden powers being stronger than both of them as his ssj1 was almost a joke (germ of truth) to Cell. >Yes, of course (except my translation heavily implies he doesn't know it's ssj2, just a hidden power - but yeah, it's ssj2) >Of course >Yes he does >Goku wasn't bluffing, that his son wasn't a joke. I explained this clearly that their was a whole dialog before the "wasn't bluffing" and that was the part he wasn't bluffing about. Even you're own quote verifies this... "he's stronger than both of us," Cell would have said he absolutely was bluffing if that were the case as he could see plain as day that ssj1 Gohan was no match for him. He admitted that several times, said he couldn't beat him if he had a hundred years. Again, this doesn't prove that he was stronger or weaker. All of your conclusion makes sense except that he told them about gohan's hidden powers and to trust him. They were majorly skeptical at first. They were hopeful when they saw his power up. They begin to believe Goku knows what he's talking about. Then they are fearful when Goku's promises don't come thru. Picollo calls him out specifically on this. Goku fucked up. He should have never sent his "weaker" (yeah, my reasonable assumption) son out their to fight for him. Skar and I talked about this and I do believe Picollo's intent could have meant we should have never participated in Cell's tournament, that they should have all simultaneously attacked Cell, but if that's the case then that's more of Picollo being the Monday night quarterback at that point. Again, take away him telling z fighters about hidden powers in advance and yeah, that could be seen as some small proof. Otherwise, no. His real speed is not a power up. We know what power ups look like and that is not one. I'll just go with the more easy to understand version that he simply was holding back his speed within his first powered up state. (If it were a power up and nothing showed it, why would he need to show powering back down???) "Real speed" could definitely be seen to be faster than "pretty damn good speed" so yeah, he might have been going a bit faster with Gohan and so what. Did Gohan do better than Goku once that happened? No. "Nobody mentions he's weaker" yes, and nobody mentions he's stronger or faster either. No proof. I don't know about this one, as I wish you had shown the frame before the first one where cell is upside down and there is fluid leaking down his chin from the corner of his mouth. I think at one point you called that spit??? Which would be a first in DB as far as I'm aware in that specific way. Either way, Cell held his hand to the side of his mouth for 3 full frames after Goku hit him there (so I could easily assume that means it wasn't a love tap) Crazy enough I think I just answered my question in my last post to you though... Why does Cell have a bruise/scuff from Gohan's kick on the one side of his face but is bleeding from the otherside of his mouth? Perhaps it's cause the blow reopened the cut Goku gave him (yeah, that's just a wild guess, don't use it against me) If you're right that was blood only when Gohan kicked him (I need more proof cause my copy looks like he's also bleeding) then that wouldn't be definitive proof of much but it would be at least something in your favor. I thought the Axalon quote was awful fitting right there though, especially since he referenced this very scene to spell out why blood doesn't mean anything. Of course I totally disagreed with him (blood trickle on side of mouth is a db staple for minor damage), but it was nice to finally have one of you on my side for once. Possible minor proof if you can prove that's somehow spit in the image I see in my copy ( I admit mine's a bit blurry but there's definitely something on the corner of his mouth. Make up your mind. On your point number 6 you say "nobody says he's weaker." Of course it's not definitive proof, but when the author immediately has Krillin point out that Goku is now the strongest when he powers up, but then chooses not to have anyone make the same statement when Gohan powers up speaks volumes to me right there. Such an important moment in which Gohan of all people surpasses everyone and not one soul bothers to actually state it. Decent proof, but not in your favor. No, that's not what happened. I said the speed lines indicate that he was fighting slower at the start of both fights and that when he went with his super speed it was clearly drawn as different from the beginning of his fights. Whether he was slightly faster with Gohan is irrelevant as Gohan didn't do any better. The point you got wrong was that Skar implied that the speed lines between fights can mean different things just as how something in Saiyan saga might have crazy speed lines but happened far slower than something with matching speed lines in the buu saga. Of course he is right in that scenario, but we're not talking about different sagas, we are talking about practically within the same fight, just minutes apart. The speed lines matter. The illustrator doesn't mess that kind of stuff up for no good reason. It's meant to show what's going on just as loud and clear as the dialog. Strong proof that Cell fought both at nearly the same and as such Goku performed far better. Hence further proof that Goku was stronger. Gohan has been in many, many fights prior. He has been training nonstop with his father for almost a year just for this fight. Gohan has a will to fight. Yes, he's nervous because he doesn't realize he's strong enough to face Cell because for whatever reason (plot) Goku never straight up told him. Once Goku convinces him he's stong enough to fight Cell without getting one shotted he tells he will do his best and stands toe to toe with him. Gohan has no problem fighting. YES! He has a problem with killing (he's 11 and never killed anyone), after he realizes his ssj1 is no match for Cell he remembers what his father told him about his hidden powers and knows then that he will end up killing Cell if that happens. He warns Cell, threatens him to stop the fight or he will end up killing him. Gohan absolutely has a complete will to fight, don't confuse the 2. >Yeah, that's called strategy... against a stronger opponent wait for an opening.... exactly what he did. >see above >Goku's only okay with blowing Cell's head off after he uses the earth as hostage with his Kamehameha. Yes, Gohan doesn't want to be a murder, he's only 11. >Not wanting to kill doesn't mean not wanting to fight. Are you really trying to tell me that Gohan was afraid that if he punched Cell he might kill him??? That's what it sounds like you're trying to get at. Killing and fighting, 2 different things. He could have beat cell into submission and never killed him (if only he had the strength) This isn't buu we're talking about. Cell regenerates, he doesn't auto ki restore. A slightly weaker Gohan getting beat up by the same Cell that fought Goku is what I saw. One: Yes, Gohan always thought his father was FAR FAR stronger than him. He's truly shocked that he's come so close to his father as is everyone else. Two: Gohan was committed to the fight, he just wasn't strong enough to do better than he did. Cell was the same, never powered up. The power ups are unmistakable. Even if Cell was stronger, Gohan still did piss poor compared to his father who as was stated hurt much more than Cells pride and greatly reduced his ki prompting him to go ahead and take the senzu. Gohan didn't do shit but a blood trickle and a scuff. I appreciate your time and effort in attacking my argument. Keep in mind that this is not my argument for my case, merely an attempt to defend against your attacks. I'm confident that I did more than an adequate job even if you continue to fail to recognize my efforts. I still plan on gathering up everything and trying to make a clear final argument to augment my initial one. I'm probably going to try to ask a few questions to get you and skar to clarify some of your points so hopefully you'll come back for just those answers. Otherwise, thanks for keeping me on my toes. Skar, I'll try to get back to your post tomorrow. First come first serve.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 18:08:35 GMT
Get ready cause I'm about to debunk that minimum limit crap... Goku states he is at his limit as ssj1 (not my opinion, stated as fact). If the problem wasn't the trigger and simply that he wasn't strong enough then he would never be able to get there as he is already at his limit as stated (he cannot get any stronger period.). That doesn't debunk it and only supports the idea of there being a limit. If he can't get stronger in SSJ1, the only way to go is it break that "wall" and transform into a SSJ2. Coincidentally, it's even referred to as a "SSJ wall" during the Buu saga a few times as in the limit they had to overcome to reach SSJ2. Debunking it would be giving evidence of a normal, non-fused SSJ1 who was stronger than a SSJ2 or SSJ3. Nothing in the Buu saga supports that because SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta were still weaker than SSJ2 Gohan despite him barely training and losing power. As a mod, I have to also point out that you shouldn't call another person's theory "crap". Everyone respected your theory and even said that it could be a possible interpretation even though no one else agreed with it. I don't really have anything else to add. Although we disagreed, it was fun debating with you and getting a chance to reread the manga! That's always a reminder that not many artists can match Toriyama in his prime.
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