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Post by fooshin on Feb 4, 2017 11:50:04 GMT
I already this point in a different comment but I'll give a more detailed response. Trunks and Goten seemed to be an exception to the rule because they had easy access to SSJ with very little training compared to the other Saiyans and it was never implied they suffered anything that triggered the transformation. If you're saying they don't need a minimum requirement, they would need some traumatic experience to trigger at least but that wasn't implied either. In the Future Trunks special, SSJ Trunks was sparing with base Future Gohan so he was initially a very weak SSJ in the future as well. It's very likely they inherited SSJ from their fathers because Gohan who was conceived before Goku reached SSJ had to train much harder than them to unlock SSJ. Despite accessing SSJ at an early age, Future Trunks was still around the same tier as Vegeta as they trained together and wasn't able to unlock SSJ2 at that time. That would lead me to assume that Trunks had a "hereditary advantage" compared to Gohan in SSJ because he was conceived after Vegeta had reached the form but would still need to train just as hard as Gohan to reach SSJ2. That's an interesting theory that their post ssj fathers gave them ssj in their dna somehow. I'm not sure where you're going with Trunks as I believe both future trunks and kid trunks were both conceived by Vegeta after he unlocked ssj1. Also, it doesn't make much sense that future trunks would strengthen at a much slower rate than Gohan who was conceived by a pre ssj Goku. If that theory were somehow true then I suppose that would explain away at least that one glaring problem. Another thing... since we don't see their initial transformation then it's tough to guess if they did have a trigger (I don't think they necessarily have to be traumatic as you say... bra in dbm as a non cannon example) We know that pure saiyans have triggers. We know that hybrids(gohan and future trunks) have triggers. Goten and kid Trunks are both hybrids and I believe that both of the trunks had Ssj fathers at the time of conception so not sure if that's true why they wouldn't also. Well, to be honest, I just now heard about your ssj passed thru the dna theory (which I'm not at all sure of, see above) so take that away and my trunks 100g does clearly debunk the minimum level requirement theory just by itself. Personally, as I've stated, I do believe that there is some kind of minimum requirement, but it is likely far lower than we see. Just because Goku went ssj against freeza when he did, didn't mean he couldn't when he fought Ginyu. It takes a trigger as is 100% verified in the manga. Like I said, this is why Saligir has Vegeta in U7 transform against the ginyu force after getting his ass kicked first. I have no problem with the idea that goten and trunks couldn't get ssj3 by themselves just because they lacked the base strength. The problem is that people assume that there's a hard minimum and that when they see the transformations happen in the manga, then that must be what the minimum is. I never said there weren't limits, just that I didn't like the idea of them. I quoted the reason from the manga. They were at their limits and he would only get weaker if he remained in the rosat. In what way does any of that imply whose limit was higher, lower or equal I have no idea. That's why I try to keep pointing out where certain information might be interesting in and of itself, it really doesn't provide any proof to the argument at hand. It just opens the door to more assumptions based on how you or I want it to mean. The bottom line is that Gohan was at his limit and if he was weaker than Goku than staying longer wouldn't have enabled Goku to make him any stronger in that state. Hard to think of how a quote from someone could be taken out of context when the very scene that is referenced in the quote is the exact scene that is being discussed. I think you're confusing the words here which is mostly my bad as I wrote all that very late and didn't have time to proof read it. What I was trying to say was I'm about to debunk that minimum "level" crap..." Ashanark states "Does SS2 require a minimum level of power?" This is what I was referring to, not what you were talking about. My point was that if Goku's problem wasn't with finding his trigger (which it was) and that it was simply a matter of him not being strong enough, then he would have never gotten to ssj2 because he was already at his limit (as stated). Goku was already strong enough to go ssj2 (and could have been for a long time) he just didn't know how and he knew the rosat was the wrong place to find it. If he is at his limit then he already has as much power as he will ever have in that state and years in the afterlife won't make him stronger, only finding his trigger will. Goku could have easily been stronger than Gohan but unable to transform. It simply can't be that Gohan was stronger than Goku as ssj1 and that's why he was able to go ssj2 and Goku could not. That is impossible. It sound's like your "limit" theory is something entirely different and it seems like you're implying with it that a saiyan must reach his limit (the wall) in order to break it to go to ssj2. Well, that could be possible, and seems likely if it's only in reference to ssj2. That could explain why Gotenks never showed ssj2 as he probably never mastered ssj1 the way goku, gohan and presumably vegeta did with their training. It could be that ssj3 has all together different requirements (no wall) and as they figured those out they then skipped past level 2. If you're going to put your mod hat on here then please quote from the rules what exactly I violated please. I'm not aware that I'm not allowed to be critical of other people's theories. If that were true we'd have to ban everyone on this forum a hundred times over. Moreover, I wasn't even calling Ashanark's theory crap, he just asked the question about a specific fan theory and never acknowledged it was his own. Even if it was his I don't see why this is an offense. In my last post I said this theory doesn't hold water and this time I said it was crap. Not the best word choice at 4 in the morning but if there are any 6 year olds who were offended by my level of vulgarity then I sincerely apologize. Thanks, but not sure about the everyone respecting my theory part. You and Andres were the only 2 to give it any small amount of credit. But I do appreciate it anyways. Yes, agreed. I didn't learn much new about the subject at hand but I do have a whole new look on the whole multiplier thing and how off I was about it from the rereads. It seems clear to me now that the whole ssj = 50x and ssj2 = 2x-4x thing is totally not the correct way to look at it.
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Post by Eldagusto on Feb 4, 2017 15:57:21 GMT
Yeah based on Gohan being Gohan, I'm pretty sure if he and Goku fought seriously Goku would win, I mean Goku can Teleport... that alone wins it for him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 2:10:02 GMT
If you're going to put your mod hat on here then please quote from the rules what exactly I violated please. I'm not aware that I'm not allowed to be critical of other people's theories. If that were true we'd have to ban everyone on this forum a hundred times over. Moreover, I wasn't even calling Ashanark's theory crap, he just asked the question about a specific fan theory and never acknowledged it was his own. Even if it was his I don't see why this is an offense. In my last post I said this theory doesn't hold water and this time I said it was crap. Not the best word choice at 4 in the morning but if there are any 6 year olds who were offended by my level of vulgarity then I sincerely apologize. We've all adults here so I don't think anyone will have their feelings hurt over an insult on the internet. It's just basic courtesy to respect another person's theory the same way your own theory was shown respect even though no one else agreed with it. These are standard rules in every forum. If I shared a theory on here and the only responses were from people dismissing it and calling it crap, I'd be discouraged from posting that often. You've been friendly the entire debate so I'm just saying there's no need to end it by insulting the other person's theory when everyone was agreeing to disagree and move on from it. Let's try to end it on a friendlier note .
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Post by Xeno Black on Feb 5, 2017 2:50:06 GMT
To put my two cents in, Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku in the same state, but his "reluctant" fighting nature will definitely allow Goku to beat him up pretty badly. But the moment Gohan snaps and decides to go all out, Goku will surely lose even with Instant Transmission on deck. I mean with just a simple kick (his only move that connected against Perfect Cell as a SSJ), Gohan not only put Cell flat on his ass, but also drew blood from his lips. Goku would have to put in alot more effort to attain the same desired effect.
That is just how strong Gohan truly is. By just powering up initially everyone literally believed that Gohan was the strongest on their team, with some participants starting to believe that he may be able to take on Cell (which is astonishing after watching the Perfect Cell Vs SSJ Goku fight). Those words cannot be taken lightly. [Will get sources if somebody asks].
But to get back on topic, Goku most likely will defeat Gohan in the same state if he is not in the mood for battle. But once Gohan says "fuck it, HAAAAAA" and goes into beast mode, Goku will most likely lose. Period!
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Post by fooshin on Feb 5, 2017 5:59:43 GMT
We've all adults here so I don't think anyone will have their feelings hurt over an insult on the internet. It's just basic courtesy to respect another person's theory the same way your own theory was shown respect even though no one else agreed with it. These are standard rules in every forum. If I shared a theory on here and the only responses were from people dismissing it and calling it crap, I'd be discouraged from posting that often. You've been friendly the entire debate so I'm just saying there's no need to end it by insulting the other person's theory when everyone was agreeing to disagree and move on from it. Let's try to end it on a friendlier note . I agree that it's a basic courtesy and as such if you point out my minor mistake as a fellow member then I respect your admonishment even though as I said, no offence was meant - Ashanark brought up that theory in question format, and hence did not acknowledge it was even his own. But, I do think it's inappropriate for you as a mod to point out a rule violation especially after I politely ask you to quote where it says in the rules that I violated anything and you do not do so. It is one of the first things in the rules expressly that politeness is not required. Believe me when I say that I could easily quote many members (and mods) saying far worse about various fan theories than my little slip. As such, I would hope you agree that throwing your mod hat on to chastise me at the end is also not the most friendly way to end it.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 5, 2017 6:09:38 GMT
Yeah based on Gohan being Gohan, I'm pretty sure if he and Goku fought seriously Goku would win, I mean Goku can Teleport... that alone wins it for him. I agree with your point in general and to be honest I was a little surprised that no one really went strongly with the angle that they were equal in power but Goku simply had far more fighting experience and technique to explain away why he seemed to do so much better. As it's stated in the beginning of my theory, I meant to contrast my theory with the prevailing theory that Gohan was stronger. I admit it would be difficult to argue that they weren't simply equal as a lot of my stronger evidence falls apart at that point.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 5, 2017 6:31:36 GMT
To put my two cents in, Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku in the same state, but his "reluctant" fighting nature will definitely allow Goku to beat him up pretty badly. But the moment Gohan snaps and decides to go all out, Goku will surely lose even with Instant Transmission on deck. I mean with just a simple kick (his only move that connected against Perfect Cell as a SSJ), Gohan not only put Cell flat on his ass, but also drew blood from his lips. Goku would have to put in alot more effort to attain the same desired effect. That is just how strong Gohan truly is. By just powering up initially everyone literally believed that Gohan was the strongest on their team, with some participants starting to believe that he may be able to take on Cell (which is astonishing after watching the Perfect Cell Vs SSJ Goku fight). Those words cannot be taken lightly. [Will get sources if somebody asks]. But to get back on topic, Goku most likely will defeat Gohan in the same state if he is not in the mood for battle. But once Gohan says "fuck it, HAAAAAA" and goes into beast mode, Goku will most likely lose. Period! That's true that gohan knocked him on his butt and gave him a lip bleed. Also true that Goku blew away a about a third of Cell's body, bounced his ass off the ring about 50 feet away twice, and with a mere desperate ki blast spamming forced him to put up his force field but not in time before Goku "hurt more than his pride." It was acknowledged by Goku and twice by Cell that he had lost a significant amount of strength fighting Goku. Of course there's more going on than just this and it's easy to speculate many things about what was really going on, but these are just facts for what they're worth.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 7:16:19 GMT
I agree that it's a basic courtesy and as such if you point out my minor mistake as a fellow member then I respect your admonishment even though as I said, no offence was meant - Ashanark brought up that theory in question format, and hence did not acknowledge it was even his own. But, I do think it's inappropriate for you as a mod to point out a rule violation especially after I politely ask you to quote where it says in the rules that I violated anything and you do not do so. It is one of the first things in the rules expressly that politeness is not required. Believe me when I say that I could easily quote many members (and mods) saying far worse about various fan theories than my little slip. As such, I would hope you agree that throwing your mod hat on to chastise me at the end is also not the most friendly way to end it. If you want to know which rule, I was referring to rule #1. I would've asked the same thing whether or not I was a mod. You're right there has been worse criticism for other fan theories. I also criticize fan theories but I try to treat them equally to my own. It just rubbed me the wrong way that you were insulting another person's theory especially when you've gone to so much effort to get people to consider your own and counter every piece of direct evidence. If you visited a different DBZ forum, the response likely would've been a different than on here. To be honest, there being a minimum requirement to transform requires a lot less assumptions than your own theory and was simple and straightforward enough that I could see it being something Toriyama intended. Still that doesn't change my view of your theory being possible.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 5, 2017 7:46:45 GMT
If you want to know which rule, I was referring to rule #1. I would've asked the same thing whether or not I was a mod. You're right there has been worse criticism for other fan theories. I also criticize fan theories but I try to treat them equally to my own. It just rubbed me the wrong way that you were insulting another person's theory especially when you've gone to so much effort to get people to consider your own and counter every piece of direct evidence. If you visited a different DBZ forum, the response likely would've been a different than on here. To be honest, there being a minimum requirement to transform requires a lot less assumptions than your own theory and was simple and straightforward enough that I could see it being something Toriyama intended. Still that doesn't change my view of your theory being possible. 1. Provide a civil environment Civil is different from "nice" or " polite". You don't have to like someone, you don't have to say "please" and "thank you", you can joke around as long as nobody gets hurt. But you can't insult them, flame them, treat them with contempt, or treat them in any other offensive way You do understand there's a pretty big difference between insulting a person and being dismissive of an idea especially when it was never stated to even be their idea? Your main point being that the word crap versus bad, wrong, nonsensical, non-factual wasn't a polite way of saying that I disagree with a particular theory. Yes, that was a less polite way of saying it but please look again at rule #1. If you feel like all theories must be treated with a deep level of respect and people must always use polite language at all times then I'd advise you to have the rules changed to state that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 21:35:08 GMT
Civil is different from "nice" or " polite". You don't have to like someone, you don't have to say "please" and "thank you", you can joke around as long as nobody gets hurt. But you can't insult them, flame them, treat them with contempt, or treat them in any other offensive way You do understand there's a pretty big difference between insulting a person and being dismissive of an idea especially when it was never stated to even be their idea? Your main point being that the word crap versus bad, wrong, nonsensical, non-factual wasn't a polite way of saying that I disagree with a particular theory. Yes, that was a less polite way of saying it but please look again at rule #1. If you feel like all theories must be treated with a deep level of respect and people must always use polite language at all times then I'd advise you to have the rules changed to state that. If it was implied that I was threatening to ban you or anything, I apologize. It was a suggestion that you should not dismiss another person's theory because that could lead to others not giving any of your ideas much thought. A few years ago, my response to a thread like this probably would've been something like "What the shit is this? Go reread the manga!" and then leave. I realized that being polite gets you a lot further than being an asshole and I wouldn't appreciate people to respond to me that way. Offering solid counter evidence speaks for itself without you having to ridicule or dismiss the theory. If you don't manage to convince anyone with the evidence you share, insulting the theory isn't any more likely to convince them.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 6, 2017 1:49:37 GMT
If it was implied that I was threatening to ban you or anything, I apologize. It was a suggestion that you should not dismiss another person's theory because that could lead to others not giving any of your ideas much thought. A few years ago, my response to a thread like this probably would've been something like "What the shit is this? Go reread the manga!" and then leave. I realized that being polite gets you a lot further than being an asshole and I wouldn't appreciate people to respond to me that way. Offering solid counter evidence speaks for itself without you having to ridicule or dismiss the theory. If you don't manage to convince anyone with the evidence you share, insulting the theory isn't any more likely to convince them. No worries, I wasn't looking for an apology nor did I think you were threatening me with a ban. I was merely attempting to caution you against running over to put your mod hat on when you don't have a clear violation on your hands. It smacks of abuse of power and when it's done against someone you've been arguing with for days it comes off a little like I gotcha fucker. Just to put things in perspective, I've been arguing with you guys for over 10 days and 4 pages worth, that's a whole lot of opportunities for something to come out wrong. I did immediately acknowledge that was a mistake as it didnt match the same tongue in cheek level of respect we've been showing each other up until that point. That being said, I make one minor slip with my wording and that's suddenly worth ridiculing me personally? Please note that your implication above that I was not polite one time about the way I described a general fan theory and therefore I'm an asshole is actually against the rules.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2017 2:49:16 GMT
fooshin Well, the discussion was over and I just pointing it out for future reference. It felt like you were dismissing it as a crap theory as a final send-off after everyone decided to agree to disagree and leave the conversation. I don't think that it was your intention but that's what I originally assumed when I first read it which is why I commented.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 6, 2017 3:04:42 GMT
fooshin Well, the discussion was over and I just pointing it out for future reference. It felt like you were dismissing it as a crap theory as a final send-off after everyone decided to agree to disagree and leave the conversation. I don't think that it was your intention but that's what I originally assumed when I first read it which is why I commented. Cool, thank you for acknowledging that. You misunderstood my slip as some kind departing insult and I misunderstood your suggestion to be more polite as an abuse of authority. That's a better way to end it. Unless others want to contribute something to the argument then I'm just gonna try to post my final summary for why I think it's more plausible tomorrow and move on to much less argumentative topics.
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Post by Xeno Black on Feb 6, 2017 5:42:59 GMT
To put my two cents in, Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku in the same state, but his "reluctant" fighting nature will definitely allow Goku to beat him up pretty badly. But the moment Gohan snaps and decides to go all out, Goku will surely lose even with Instant Transmission on deck. I mean with just a simple kick (his only move that connected against Perfect Cell as a SSJ), Gohan not only put Cell flat on his ass, but also drew blood from his lips. Goku would have to put in alot more effort to attain the same desired effect. That is just how strong Gohan truly is. By just powering up initially everyone literally believed that Gohan was the strongest on their team, with some participants starting to believe that he may be able to take on Cell (which is astonishing after watching the Perfect Cell Vs SSJ Goku fight). Those words cannot be taken lightly. [Will get sources if somebody asks]. But to get back on topic, Goku most likely will defeat Gohan in the same state if he is not in the mood for battle. But once Gohan says "fuck it, HAAAAAA" and goes into beast mode, Goku will most likely lose. Period! That's true that gohan knocked him on his butt and gave him a lip bleed. Also true that Goku blew away a about a third of Cell's body, bounced his ass off the ring about 50 feet away twice, and with a mere desperate ki blast spamming forced him to put up his force field but not in time before Goku "hurt more than his pride." It was acknowledged by Goku and twice by Cell that he had lost a significant amount of strength fighting Goku. Of course there's more going on than just this and it's easy to speculate many things about what was really going on, but these are just facts for what they're worth. Since the final arguments are going to be made soon that will most likely finish this thread up for good, I will post my last opinions on this thread as well. I definitely agree with what you said about Goku going ham on Cell to the point he did used alot of his ki during the battle. If it wasn't for that senzu bean, ultimately the battle against Gohan would have been even more screwed in favor of the saiyan hybrid. But keep in mind that Goku was going all out against Perfect Cell from start to finish, something which we never got from Gohan while still being a SSJ. Thus it is quite akin to the many fan theories regarding SSJ2 Gohan vs Super Perfect Cell since they never truly fought in canon. Honestly we will never truly know if Gohan is truly stronger than Goku in the same state since they never fought, nonetheless many characters in-universe have expressed their astonishment at Gohan's incredible power, especially Goku himself. His words must mean something since he is the person you are comparing to Gohan as being stronger. Hell even the the HBTC Gohan was going toe to toe against Goku, suggesting they are at the very least equals. And their training sessions weren't even over yet since Gohan still did not attain his SSJ2 Form (which boosted Gohan's natural abilities even more when he finally did). However enough evidence is out there that dictates that Gohan is superior in the end. Our fellow forum members did a excellent job sources their reasons on "why" that is the case. But let's assume that Gohan did go all out against Perfect Cell as a SSJ. What do you think would have happen when Gohan goes into his rage inducement at the peak of his SSJ capabilities. Unfortunately we never saw Gohan like that as a SSJ since his rage usually turns him into a SSJ2 or ultimately avoids to get mad at all, but do you really think that a rage-induced SSJ Gohan would not fuck up Perfect Cell pretty decently? If you think otherwise, you are deciding to not see facts since it is well known that Gohan in his rage inducements always gains massive strength that usually overpowers his opponent very briefly (Raditz, 2nd form Frieza, 50% Final Form Frieza, Garlic Junior, etc). I believe that Toriyama himself would have had Gohan trouncing Perfect Cell momentarily while in said state, which is pretty significant since nobody else (Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Piccolo, etc) would be able to achieve the same feats. Of course the rage inducements will just be brief and will most likely be overpowered by Cell when he really uses his full power, but the feat alone is something that cannot be ignored. Of course this is all just suspicions, but enough evidence is out there that leads credibility to my assumptions as being plausible. But lets go back to my example of SSJ2 Gohan vs Super Perfect Cell. I am actually a firm believer that does two are actually equals (meaning Gohan nor Cell is stronger than the other), but I have to accept the fact that Gohan is stronger in the end. If the Exciting guides can be trusted that came out in 2009 and the dub stating that SSJ2 Gohan's power has been "cut in half" upon receiving the Perfect Shot on his arm, that means that Gohan's Power Level was close to his normal SSJ levels (SSJ2 is 2 X stronger than SSJ). But since Gohan was determined to fight Cell to the end despite having a PL closer to his SSJ output despite being a SSJ2, he manages to do the impossible: stopping Super Perfect Cell's Perfect Kamehameha. And upon becoming very pissed and stopping Cell's evil forever, his hidden power / rage gives him enough power to kill the bio-android once and for all. Do you see what I mean now? If those numbers can be trusted as well of the dialogue, Gohan was fighting against a being who his father on his best day could never compete by just using SSJ levels of output since we has highly damaged as a SSJ2. Thanks to his rage, Gohan finally kills Cell who was at his peak of power. I mean Damaged SSJ2 Gohan = SSJ Gohan at full power and once the former utilized his hidden power, SP Cell was killed. Most likely the same result would have happened too if a healthy but determined SSJ Gohan was in the beam struggle as well. That is just how powerful Gohan truly is once he becomes pissed off and dose not give a damn about the damage he causes. He literally becomes a beast. Nonetheless I support the idea of Gohan being stronger than Goku in the same state. While it is debatable who would actually win, but once Gohan becomes mad, Goku is toast. Well, more like burnt toast. XD
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Post by fooshin on Feb 7, 2017 11:15:09 GMT
Since the final arguments are going to be made soon that will most likely finish this thread up for good, I will post my last opinions on this thread as well. I was going to post my summary tonight but instead I'll reply to you now and try to get that other thing done tomorrow. I'll be brief so feel free to correct me if I missed your point. Although I didn't clearly state it in my first post this argument was supposed to be cannon manga only - as they usually are in this forum. Also, I'm not going to argue with your above assumptions as I've already addressed these with Ashanark and Skar. I do understand that perspective and I'll try to address that in my closing argument. This argument was specifically apples to apples. Goku ssj1 vs Gohan ssj1 - No theoretical rage boosts or other possible scenarios. I'm not going to argue this scenario because to be honest I haven't looked into it anywhere near as deeply as I have the one we've been discussing but I'll just say that I was always under the impression that Gohan was still somewhat stronger than Super perfect Cell and that the injury brought him down to somewhere between a little lower to equal to Cell. I was under the impression that Gohan used a further rage boost to actually overcome Cell's Kamehameha but I could totally be wrong and don't feel strongly enough about that atm to want to argue my opinion about it. Just my opinion and not strongly linked to the argument at hand but I don't think damaged ssj2 gohan was anywhere near equal to ssj gohan at full power. It's generally accepted that ssj2 is 2-4x stronger than ssj1 and as such it's a totally different league. Just my opinion, but I think ssj2 gohan was far and away stronger than ssj1 gohan as that the two can't be comparable. Once again, there's the assumption ssj1 Gohan was holding back so I'll address that in my final argument.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 8, 2017 11:22:37 GMT
Ok, short and sweet.
There's no shortage of assumptions going on with this one. I'm not going to repeat all of them because we got 4 pages of that. If you want to see how I think it went down then just read my first post and if you want to see my rebuttal to pretty much all of the assumptions against my theory then read my last post to ashanark on page 3.
Put all the assumptions aside as in he said this and so I assume there was a power up or he said that so I assume he was holding back and what you're left with are just the facts.
Fact #1. Goku simply did far better against Cell than Gohan did.
Fact #2. After Cell witnessed Gohan's full ssj1 powerup and after fighting him Cell wanted to go back to fighting Goku.
Fact #3. It was acknowledged by the author thru Krillin that Goku was now the strongest and there was never, not once, an acknowledgment that Gohan had surpassed him.
I was never once presented a single indisputable fact from the other perspective similar to the 3 above. Everything was just one assumption piled on top of the rest.
The suggestion that Gohan must be stronger because that's the impression that most of us had after seeing it I believe is largely due to anime bias. I believe that most DB fans, like myself, watched the anime before they ever read the manga and as such I noticed there were a few differences in the anime that seem to suggest Gohan was stronger due to some minor changes in the dialog and visuals. I intended this to be a cannon debate and what the anime changed from the manga is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
That's it. Feel free to challenge anything you want but at this point, unless it's something all together new, then all I'm going to do is point out exactly how that's just an assumption with very little evidence supporting it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 15:49:45 GMT
I was never once presented a single indisputable fact from the other perspective similar to the 3 above. Everything was just one assumption piled on top of the rest. It's not really fair to claim the other side's evidence are all based on assumptions when they involved direct, straightforward quotes from the characters like Cell saying he's going to use his full speed and Gohan saying he doesn't want to fight Cell. We assume a character is telling the truth unless there is clear evidence they were lying. I was looking at Kanzenshuu's manga guide and found this: Chapter 403's title: The Warrior Who Surpassed GokuNote that this chapter ends with Cell eating the Senzu Bean and Gohan powering-up so it's likely referring to Gohan's power as a SSJ1 because his rage and SSJ2 aren't brought up until a few chapters later.
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Post by fooshin on Feb 10, 2017 8:31:10 GMT
It's not really fair to claim the other side's evidence are all based on assumptions when they involved direct, straightforward quotes from the characters like Cell saying he's going to use his full speed and Gohan saying he doesn't want to fight Cell. It's a fact that Cell was using his fullest speed against Gohan within the suppressed power level he held himself at. Everything after that is assumption. You assume that speed was faster than the speed he used on Goku. You (or maybe just ashanark) assume that this speed up constitutes a legitimate power up and that it stacks on top of the speed up he did with Goku - as in he was still going as fast at the beginning of Gohan's fight as he was at the end of Goku's (even though the illustration clearly shows otherwise). You assume that even though Gohan did worse than Goku under this speed that that somehow verifies he's stronger than Goku ssj1 to ssj1. I 100% agree. Hard to have a logical debate with someone when they don't understand that. It's a fact that Gohan surpassed Goku before his fight (in the Rosat), however, you assume that this also applies to his state in ssj1. And also, you are incorrect that his rage (and ultimately ssj2) aren't brought up until a few chapters later. It was twice alluded to at Korin's and then confirmed by Goku prior to Gohan's fight that he had greatly surpassed him in the Rosat. Before the fight, and in the titled chapter, Goku says "When we were in the Rosat I was able to start to bring out some of his deeply hidden power and at Korin's he expressed extreme confidence (in Gohan). Also, here's a quote from you that seems to show that you already know this... or am I taking it out of context? Keep in mind that during Gohan's fight, Goku never once showed confidence in Gohan's ability as ssj1 (the confidence he alluded to at Korin's). He patiently waited for him to get his ass kicked enough to unlock. He knew Gohan was no match. That doesn't make sense if Gohan was stronger. Goku acknowledged that he wasn't aware if Cell was stronger than himself at the end of his fight. If Gohan was truly stonger than Goku and Goku came somewhat close to beating Cell (still surpressing) then it would only make sense that Goku would believe that Gohan's ssj1 might actually stand a chance just by itself. That's not what happened, he had no confidence in Gohan's ssj1. Why? Cause he knew his ssj1 was a bit weaker than his own. But, hey, that's just my assumption there. I still got 3 facts above and beyond all my assumptions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 16:17:21 GMT
It's a fact that Cell was using his fullest speed against Gohan within the suppressed power level he held himself at. Everything after that is assumption. You assume that speed was faster than the speed he used on Goku. You (or maybe just ashanark) assume that this speed up constitutes a legitimate power up and that it stacks on top of the speed up he did with Goku - as in he was still going as fast at the beginning of Gohan's fight as he was at the end of Goku's (even though the illustration clearly shows otherwise). You assume that even though Gohan did worse than Goku under this speed that that somehow verifies he's stronger than Goku ssj1 to ssj1. You went to the extra step and assumed Cell powered down offscreen and then powered-up again to the speed he used against Goku when he fought Gohan and then compared their speed lines which only indicate an increase of speed and can't be quantified. The only assumption the other side is making here is that Cell is telling the truth when says he's going to use his full speed against Gohan. We're not assuming he used his full speed against Goku because...he didn't say that. Yes, because we only find out about SSJ2 later on in the story. We have no idea what hidden power Goku was referring to at the time of that chapter. Why would Toriyama purposely confuse the fans with a chapter title like that when it doesn't apply to the form Gohan powers up to within that chapter? Which do you think is simpler for the author to be thinking at the time: Gohan assumed Goku was holding back because he compared Goku's power to his own and thought it was lower. He powers up and everyone is surprised that he is stronger than Goku which is why I titled the chapter "The Warrior Who Surpassed Goku".
or Gohan was actually weaker than Goku as a SSJ1. I will title the chapter "The Warrior Who Surpassed Goku" to refer to the form that Gohan will reveal a few chapters later and then fans will go back and piece together what I meant".There's also the fact that Goku has no reasonable in-universe explanation for why he would leave the Hyperbolic Time Chamber early if Gohan was weaker than him. At the absolute bare minimum, Goku would end their training once he closed the gap between him and Gohan and they were nearly equal.
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