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Post by fooshin on Jan 26, 2017 21:20:51 GMT
I'm going to make the argument that contrary to what many believe, Gohan was not at all stronger than Goku at that time and was in fact slightly weaker.
The important thing to remember in all this is that Gohan went from being a weakling (relatively speaking) to nearly matching Goku in the short span of his ROSAT training. He learned ssj and then mastered it thanks to Goku's training and as a result surpassed Trunks and Vegeta. Gohan is not aware just how strong he is because he never got to see Vegeta and Trunks fight. He is operating on the assumption that he couldn't have possibly caught up to his father and surpassed the others.
After Goku goes full power Gohan says, "Why is everyone so surprised? I think he's doing pretty good, but..." I think some of you read this and assume that Gohan believes he's much stronger than Goku is showing but in fact it's that he believes his father has to be far and away stonger than him and here he's merely around his own max.
From there on it's the fight and it is clear that at the level Cell is holding himself to Goku is giving him a very even match. Several times it is shown and stated that Cell is taking damage and is diminished. He's still confident of his win overall because he's still got his one last power up we see when he fights Gohan at ssj2 but if it weren't for that it's clear that goku at least made a major dent in him even if he couldn't quite get there.
After the fight is over Goku asks Gohan if it seemed like he was having trouble following the fight and if he thought he could keep up. Gohan says yes and all that proves is that he is around Goku's level, not beyond. Yes, he thought he was holding back but that's only because he has it fixed in his mind that his father has to be leagues ahead of him not similarly matched.
Then there's Gohan's turn and he powers up. The power up looks identical to Goku's with the biggest exception being that everyone is shocked. They are not shocked because Gohan is stronger than Goku. They are shocked because he was a weakling that suddenly surpassed everyone but Goku. It would be like seeing krillin coming out of the Rosat for a day and suddenly matching Super Vegeta. It would be a shock. And yet there wasn't one statement from anyone suggesting that Gohan was at all stronger than Goku. In fact, the only statement that measured Gohan's strength came from Cell. He said, "Goku wasn't completely lying after all. There was a germ of truth in his story. But saying that you could beat me was just too much." That is not an acknowledgement that Gohan is stronger, merely that he is a lot stronger than he would have guessed. He doesn't say, "Goody gumdrops, now I've got a real challenge on my hands. Goku, you were nothing compared to your son, now I fight for real." If anything he acknowledges that Gohan is weaker than Goku and won't last nearly as long as he did. And so...
Their fight: Just as you would expect from someone slightly weaker than Goku, Gohan can't keep up and gets worked. Only one time does Gohan land a hit and you can attribute that to Cell playing around trying to get him mad. This is the exact same Cell fighting at the same pl as he did with Goku. His "real speed" was not another power up. He did the same thing to Goku and this could be another thread but I assume it has less to do with him holding back his speed and more about ki redistribution. We see this idea played out in the Cell saga a lot and Saligir continues on with the idea with his Trunks fight with Vegeta. Cell only powers up further when he's faced with ssj2 Gohan.
Then there's the hard evidence. After fighting Gohan for awhile Cell says. "Goku, that's enough of you silly joke!! Eat a senzu and fight me some more!! As if the actual fight isn't proof enough, Cell admits that Gohan is a joke compared to Goku and wants him back in the ring. Yes, after saying that, Gohan got back up and got back in the fight without any major damage, but the fight never turned around from there. He just continued to get worked completely unlike his father.
In summary, it seems pretty clear that Goku knew Gohan didn't stand a chance without either a rage boost or a transformation. The anime makes it clear that he saw his ssj2 in the rosat and knew he could do it if whereas the manga more or less loosely implies he's seen something similar that will give him the win if pushed. That being said I'm sure he knew Gohan was still plenty strong enough to not be a one shot either, thereby giving him the time he would need to get angry. In other words, exactly what happened.
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Post by thejakub on Jan 27, 2017 0:26:49 GMT
Gohan was stronger than Goku, but had no will to fight. The fact that confirms this are Gohan's words that he thought that Goku fought while heavily suppressed.
Cell used a bigger suppression against Goku, because he knew that thanks to the latter experience, he can give him a good fight thanks to some surprises - like Warp Kamehameha. Cell saw no fun in fighting Gohan, and for this reason he tried to bit him to the pulp and either anger him or make Goku return with regenerated powers.
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 27, 2017 3:23:28 GMT
From the manga: Goku: "Was our battle too tough for you?" Gohan: "Well, no. But neither of you was fighting for real, yet, right?" Goku: "I don't know about Cell, but I was doing my best. So to you it looked like I wasn't really trying, huh?" Gohan: "Y-yeah..." And if you don't like that translation, here's another: Slightly different translation, same idea. Gohan assumed Goku was holding back, because he couldn't imagine he was stronger than his dad. Cell similarly assumed Goku was holding back, because he also couldn't imagine Gohan was stronger than his dad. Both were mistaken. Goku explicitly states he was at his limit, and Gohan admits Goku and Cell were fighting at a level Gohan considered not "for real" or "all out." It seems clear to me that Gohan was the strongest Z-Fighter by a good margin even before he unlocked SS2. The reason he had trouble against Cell was a complete lack of will to fight. Going away from what's explicitly stated in the story...in my opinion, if Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan were to all receive the same amount of training, the power levels would go Vegeta < Goku << Gohan. With just one year of solid training with Goku, Gohan jumped from like 6th strongest Z-Fighter to being able to whoop everyone handily if he really wanted, even his dad. And that was even without SS2. I appreciate how Salagir puts Mystic Gohan as the strongest you can get in the multiverse without shenanigans of some kind (fusion, absorption, etc.), because to me it was always implied Gohan had more potential than any other character. It's a shame he'd rather be a scholar, because Gohan's a prodigy at fighting and training, with far more natural talent than Trunks, Future Trunks, and Goten. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 3:59:51 GMT
I thought Gohan being stronger but not wanting to fight was common knowledge without dispute?
My biggest concern regarding this time period in DB is after spending a year in the RoSaT, why the fuck didn't Goku teach Gohan IT?
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Post by fooshin on Jan 27, 2017 10:58:22 GMT
From the manga: Goku: "Was our battle too tough for you?" Gohan: "Well, no. But neither of you was fighting for real, yet, right?" Goku: "I don't know about Cell, but I was doing my best. So to you it looked like I wasn't really trying, huh?" Gohan: "Y-yeah..." The key here is... was our battle "too tough." His answer was "well, no." There are several ways you can read into that ranging from "It wasn't too tough but it still looked difficult" (meaning he's weaker than goku) all the way to "It wasn't too tough, in fact it looked like child's play" (meaning he's significantly stronger than Goku). Those statements you listed do not prove in and of themselves that Gohan is stronger than Goku. There is a range of possibilities from slightly weaker all the way to much stronger. Or... check out this angle, he couldn't imagine he was anywhere near his dad's level. He just went from constantly being the weakling in the fights to almost the strongest of the group. Without any frame of reference (he didn't see Vegeta and Trunks fight), he had no way of knowing just how strong he had become. If he assumes his dad is far stronger than him (which he would) and he sees him fighting around his level then of course he would assume he's holding back. Ahh, but how can that be when he's offering Goku the senzu. He must know he's at his limit otherwise why offer? He acknowledges Goku is puttering out and if Goku is truly the earth's last hope then why would he still be holding back all that time? Furthermore, he listened to goku confess he was maxed out. Cell has namekian hearing and you can see him listening to the conversation. Cell acknowledges with as weakened as he is a revitalized Goku might stand a chance against him. Where are you getting that he thought Goku was still holding back? No will to fight... From the time Gohan tells his dad "Okay I'll do my best" with his fist out all the way up until he starts threatening Cell that he doesn't want to fight him anymore because he will lose control and destroy him, go and look at every shot of Gohan's face and tell me which one depicts a lack of will to fight. If I could post the pics it would be non stop montage of Gohan with super serious "I'm going to kick your ass" face page after page. He hardly looks like he's lacking the will to fight. I think that's anime bais as there was some of that there but not at all in the manga. Yes, of course. No argument there. Thejakub, Going to bed, will respond to your additional points in the morning. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 15:57:02 GMT
Goku: "Was our battle too tough for you?" Gohan: "Well, no. But neither of you was fighting for real, yet, right?" Goku: "I don't know about Cell, but I was doing my best. So to you it looked like I wasn't really trying, huh?" Gohan: "Y-yeah..." The key here is... was our battle "too tough." His answer was "well, no." There are several ways you can read into that ranging from "It wasn't too tough but it still looked difficult" (meaning he's weaker than goku) all the way to "It wasn't too tough, in fact it looked like child's play" (meaning he's significantly stronger than Goku). Those statements you listed do not prove in and of themselves that Gohan is stronger than Goku. There is a range of possibilities from slightly weaker all the way to much stronger. I don't think it could be interpreted as "It wasn't too tough but it still looked difficult" because the following line makes it clear that Gohan assumed Goku wasn't trying. The only reason Gohan would assume Goku wasn't at full power was because he couldn't believe that he could be stronger than his father. The author's intent seems to be clear in my opinion. He wants to reveal that Gohan was indeed stronger than Goku by having Gohan compare Goku's power to his own and assume Goku wasn't going all out. There wouldn't be a point to include this conversation between the characters and confusing us if the author intended for Gohan to be weaker than Goku in SSJ1. |
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Post by Axalon on Jan 27, 2017 16:50:06 GMT
Not sure why this is in DBM, seems to be a wholly DBZ issue. Anyway. Gohan assumed Goku was holding back, because he couldn't imagine he was stronger than his dad. Cell similarly assumed Goku was holding back, because he also couldn't imagine Gohan was stronger than his dad. Both were mistaken. Goku explicitly states he was at his limit, and Gohan admits Goku and Cell were fighting at a level Gohan considered not "for real" or "all out." It seems clear to me that Gohan was the strongest Z-Fighter by a good margin even before he unlocked SS2. The reason he had trouble against Cell was a complete lack of will to fight. Yup. This isn't even the first time either. Goku powers up to 50% at Korin's after emerging from the HTC to compare himself to Cell and even then while everyone else is flabbergasted at his power Gohan's like "No way." It happens again when Goku powers up to 100% against Cell after warming up. Everyone else is amazed at Goku's strength, and Gohan stares directly at it and isn't impressed at all. Combined with the scan Ashanark provided, that's three separate instances of Gohan not being impressed at his father's strength as everyone else is. Vegeta's even sucking in his almighty Pride at one point and Gohan's like "It's okay I guess. Don't see why everyone else is so amazed." |
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Post by SSJ4 GOD Multi on Jan 27, 2017 17:13:13 GMT
If Goku felt that his power was on par to Gohan he probably would have fought Cell himself rather sending his son to fight for the planet. But Goku felt a power when training with Gohan that exceeded his own. If you count the filler scene with Gohan transforming into a SSJ2 while training then it's obvious Goku saw power in Gohan that exceeded his own which is why he was so confident in Gohan while everyone else were thinking it was suicide. Cell even powered up a bit more when fighting Gohan as you can see when he speed blitz him. The reason it looked like Goku was stronger and put up a better fight was because Gohan has a weak will, didn't have a reason to fight and felt as if he wasn't strong enough to defeat Cell. As Piccolo said Gohan is not a fighter like Goku, he doesn't have this strong will for a challenge but needs a good reason to fight. And though he had more power than everyone he didn't know this since his whole life he always saw his father and many others stronger than him.
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 27, 2017 17:27:12 GMT
Not sure why this is in DBM, seems to be a wholly DBZ issue. Anyway. Moved to DBZ section. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 27, 2017 19:10:25 GMT
The key here is... was our battle "too tough." His answer was "well, no." There are several ways you can read into that ranging from "It wasn't too tough but it still looked difficult" (meaning he's weaker than goku) all the way to "It wasn't too tough, in fact it looked like child's play" (meaning he's significantly stronger than Goku). Those statements you listed do not prove in and of themselves that Gohan is stronger than Goku. There is a range of possibilities from slightly weaker all the way to much stronger. I don't think it could be interpreted as "It wasn't too tough but it still looked difficult" because the following line makes it clear that Gohan assumed Goku wasn't trying. 1.The only reason Gohan would assume Goku wasn't at full power was because he couldn't believe that he could be stronger than his father. The author's intent seems to be clear in my opinion. 2.He wants to reveal that Gohan was indeed stronger than Goku by having Gohan compare Goku's power to his own and assume Goku wasn't going all out. There wouldn't be a point to include this conversation between the characters and confusing us if the author intended for Gohan to be weaker than Goku in SSJ1. I remember biting my tongue about this issue many times when it came up in DBM discussions because I wasn't ready to put in the time to defend it but that being said, Axalon is right that this should be in the DBZ folder. I doubt I'm able to move it there so any mod that would like to please do. My bad. This is just the rebuttal to several poster's including skar's responses as the biggest reason why Gohan has to be stronger: 1.I'm suggesting that Gohan's disbelief was only in that he couldn't possibly be close in strength to Goku. Just give me one valid reason why this can't be and then that would prove it. Doesn't it make complete sense that Gohan would have never believed he came close to catching up to Goku and if it appeared to him that he had done so, he would always believe that it was only because his father was holding back. 2.It's the author's main intent to show Gohan surpassing his father by unlocking ssj2. The author made it clear that Goku was taking a huge gamble that his son could unlock his power and defeat Cell. Where he was in relation to Goku as ssj1's couldn't hardly be a major concern to the author as it's mostly a moot point to be higher or lower when it makes no difference to where Gohan stood in relation to cell. Here's another angle to this but how exactly can you explain how Gohan surpassed Goku in the Rosat but never realized it. Just hypothetically speaking let's say Gohan passed him up during the last month. How would gohan not know he's kicking Goku's butt everytime they spar? Goku can't fake being stronger. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 19:45:54 GMT
1.I'm suggesting that Gohan's disbelief was only in that he couldn't possibly be close in strength to Goku. Just give me one valid reason why this can't be and then that would prove it. Doesn't it make complete sense that Gohan would have never believed he came close to catching up to Goku and if it appeared to him that he had done so, he would always believe that it was only because his father was holding back. If they both fully mastered SSJ, it wouldn't hard for Gohan to believe they were both close in power. The only thing that would really surprise him is Goku ending up being weaker than him. Like you said, they trained together in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber so if Goku ever lost to him while they spared, Gohan would either assume they're close or Goku was holding back. If you consider everything that was shown during the Cell Games: -Gohan thinks Goku was going all out against Cell. -Everyone was surprised when Gohan powered-up initially against Cell and Cell says Goku wasn't lying and there was some truth to it. If Gohan was weaker than Goku, these scenes wouldn't make sense and someone would've pointed out that Gohan wasn't as impressive as Goku when he fought Cell. -Cell decided to use his full speed against Gohan which implies he was faster than Goku. Cell could easily win with the same level of power he used against Goku if Gohan was weaker. If we take into consideration all the evidence it points to Gohan being stronger and if we only consider some of the evidence then at the very least Gohan is equal to Goku. I honestly couldn't find anything that hints Gohan was less powerful than Goku in SSJ1. If that was the intent, there wouldn't have been a point to show Gohan thinking Goku was holding back in SSJ on multiple occasions. It would've been easier to make it clear that Gohan was weaker than Goku in SSJ1 and only stronger than him in SSJ2. Dragonball is meant to be a simple and straightforward story so |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 27, 2017 19:53:00 GMT
Gohan was stronger than Goku, but had no will to fight. In the anime maybe, but in the manga it is clear from every shot that Gohan is going all out. He is drawn focused and determined. Please point to the specific scene where he is shown to have no will to fight. The scene where he stops the fight after getting manhandled by Cell can't be a good reason as that was clearly Gohan threatening Cell. Gohan: I don't want to fight. Not even someone as evil as you. Cell: Okay you don't like fighting...but I can't understand why you don't want to kill me. Because:Gohan: Ever since I was a little kid, whenever I got really angry I would lose control of myself and get stronger than even I imagined. This is a threat, not an admission of a lack of will to fight. Gohan is not a killer. He knows if he gets pushed too much he's going to kill cell and he doesn't want to kill anyone. The author makes good on this dialog in the end. That shows it was AT's intention that Gohan was threatening Cell, not cowering to him with no will to fight as you suggest. As I've pointed out repeatedly, Gohan thinking Goku was suppressing is not proof that Gohan is stronger. Gohan can't believe he's anywhere near Goku's strength and just being close to his level is shocking to him. Surely he can't be near Goku's strength, he must still be suppressing. Where's the proof of that? We know what power ups look like and he never did one against gohan's ssj1. I addressed the speed issue in my first post. He does the exact same thing to Goku... "I've got pretty damn good speed too." And even before he starts up with his super speed, Gohan could only barely dodge Cells attacks. At that same level Goku was striking cell and drawing blood. Warp Kamehameha was the only attack that Goku surprised him with and as Cell admits, "Just want to warn you, I won't fall for that again." All the rest of goku's attacks were just punches and kicks and one of his more successful ones was just basic ki blast spamming in the end. If Cell wanted just a fighter who had excellent technique but not a lot of power he could have easily got the same from fighting Vegeta. The truth is that Cell only cares about fighting the strongest. He is obsessed with fighting the strongest. You're telling me that he dismisses Gohan as the supposed strongest fighter on Earth to fight a weaker Goku just because he has funner techniques? Here's a more reasonable look at it. Goku was the strongest and Cell only wanted to fight the strongest. Cell doesn't want to fight 2nd best. |
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 27, 2017 20:14:03 GMT
I don't think it could be interpreted as "It wasn't too tough but it still looked difficult" because the following line makes it clear that Gohan assumed Goku wasn't trying. 1.The only reason Gohan would assume Goku wasn't at full power was because he couldn't believe that he could be stronger than his father. The author's intent seems to be clear in my opinion. 2.He wants to reveal that Gohan was indeed stronger than Goku by having Gohan compare Goku's power to his own and assume Goku wasn't going all out. There wouldn't be a point to include this conversation between the characters and confusing us if the author intended for Gohan to be weaker than Goku in SSJ1. Axalon is right that this should be in the DBZ folder. I doubt I'm able to move it there so any mod that would like to please do. My bad. Had ya covered 90 minutes in advance  The kicker is that Goku said he was fighting at his max. To Gohan, Goku's level was "not fighting seriously." Whether Gohan was a lot stronger than that or only a little stronger than that is not as important as the fact that Gohan was stronger than the level Goku was fighting at. Goku at that level = giving it his best = at his limit Gohan at that level = "not serious" = not at his limit This idea that SS1 Gohan < SS1 Goku relies on the assumption that Goku is lying to Gohan when he says he was giving it his best, or that Gohan was lying when he said Goku's level of power was "not serious" to him. Gohan assumes Goku is stronger because Goku has always been the strongest Z-Fighter. Gohan's a kid, and he thinks his dad is the best fighter ever, and he's humble. He's not going to assume he's surpassed his dad. Him saying "But Dad has to be stronger than me!" isn't Gohan stating a dependable fact, but being in denial. Cell assumes Goku is lying when he tells Gohan he was at his limit, because Goku has always been the strongest Z-Fighter and to him it makes no sense for Goku to be surpassed by an 11-year old. Both Gohan and Cell are wrong. Gohan having "no will to fight" can be seen from the very beginning of his fight with Cell. He waits for Cell to initiate combat. He dodges repeatedly. He only gets one kick in before transforming, and that's already after he's asked Cell to stop the fight. He's very obviously trying not to be killed, but he's not attacking. On the whole I have no idea what the heck Gohan was trying to do, because it's not like he could've dodged Cell to death. Having no fighting spirit doesn't mean Gohan can't fight at all, it means he was completely uncommitted to the idea of actually hurting and killing Cell. Goku was more fun to fight than Gohan because he was fighting to win--he was more committed to the battle. When Goku blew Cell's head off, he was wanting to kill him. Had Gohan been fighting to kill from the very beginning, we would've gotten a more epic match than Goku vs. Cell, but it was only after Gohan transformed that he gained that "will to fight." As for Cell telling Goku to use a senzu bean...Cell knows Goku's nowhere near his (Cell's) max power. Cell was taunting Goku to use a senzu bean, presumably so that Goku could try again and Cell could power up at a dramatic moment and completely crush all hope. In actuality once the Warp Kamehameha failed, Goku never had a chance, senzu bean or not. Cell was already stronger and still not at his max power. At this point I think it's a difference in interpretation that I won't be able to change. Goku said he was at his limit, Gohan thought he wasn't. To me it seems far simpler to say Goku was telling the truth and Gohan was wrong, than to say Gohan was right and Goku lied to his son's face. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 27, 2017 20:29:49 GMT
Skar, "Dragonball is meant to be a simple and straightforward story so" Ahh.. and here I thought DB was meant to incite heated discussions about every little nuance any reader could ever possibly think of. I guess I'm not dragonballing correctly. At least I'm in good company. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 20:40:23 GMT
Skar, "Dragonball is meant to be a simple and straightforward story so" Ahh.. and here I thought DB was meant to incite heated discussions about every little nuance any reader could ever possibly think of. I guess I'm not dragonballing correctly. At least I'm in good company. Last part of that got deleted for some reason before I sent it. It was supposed to read "Dragonball is meant to be a simple and straightforward story so the author usually makes his intentions clear. He wouldn't hint at something multiple times if it wasn't what he was trying get across to the readers". If we look at all the evidence presented in the manga, the only conclusion I could come to is that Toriyama intended for Gohan to be stronger than Goku or at least equal to Goku if we're only looking at part of the evidence but not all of it. I have no problem with Goku being stronger than Gohan in SSJ1 but I'm just saying that I don't SEE where that's being implied at all. If we have to leave out certain evidence to come to that conclusion then it's likely not what the author intended. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 27, 2017 21:20:56 GMT
Axalon is right that this should be in the DBZ folder. I doubt I'm able to move it there so any mod that would like to please do. My bad. Had ya covered 90 minutes in advance Yeah, that's what happens when I start a post and I get a call right in the middle of it. I'm slow enough as it is just typing these while flipping thru the manga and trying to double check everything. I just don't see how your explanation at all conflicts with the idea that Gohan assumed his father was far stronger than him and was only surprised to find out that they were in fact nearly equal. The idea that he even comes close to Goku's strength fulfills this scenario perfectly. "My father must be holding back because I can't be close to his strength" or "My father must be holding back because I'm stronger than him" are both perfectly valid. This by itself doesn't prove he was weaker nor does it at all prove he was stronger. It just opens up a range of possibilities and the other evidence is what pushes it one way or the other. nor would he assume he's even got close to his level. My scenario still fits nicely. That's a pretty major assumption given the evidence. 1. It has to be clear to Cell after such a long fight and how much Goku was depleted that Goku could not have been holding back. 2. He's so sure Goku has no further hope that he offers him a senzu just to keep it going. 3. Goku clearly states in earshot of cell that he was going all out against him. Your evidence is that Cell somehow knew Goku his whole life and that Goku was always the strongest??? Of course he's going to think nothing of some kid. When he does see that kid's power he very dismissivly states there is only a "germ of truth" (ie. almost no truth, just the slightest miniscule possibility) to Goku's boasting. That is what a fight looks like when you're overpowered and forced to be on the defensive. So perhaps a more straight forward explanation of why he performed poorly compared to Goku could also be that perhaps he was slightly weaker?? Maybe he could only block and dodge because that's the best he could do as he told his father... "okay, I'll do my best." It is undeniable that Gohan was drawn with fury and determination in his face the whole fight (except for when he was actively getting hit and dodging for his life). Sure that's all possible but above you state that you think Cell thought Goku was lying when he was at his limit. That doesn't mesh well with what you're saying here. I feel like I'm making a pretty solid argument that perfectly explains the fights, the reactions and the dialog but everyone here has such a strong preconceived notion that it happened a certain way that it's too difficult to get my point across. Or, I just suck at making a clear argument... |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 27, 2017 22:38:12 GMT
It was supposed to read "Dragonball is meant to be a simple and straightforward story so the author usually makes his intentions clear. Yes, which is exactly why it's so strange that at no time does cell or anyone else make any direct comments comparing goku and gohan. Cell could have easily said "I see you're stronger than your father but that's still not enough against me" or any of the z fighters could have said "wow, you surpassed your father" or Gohan might have said "yeah dad I could follow your movements easily." That would have been simple to add into the story if that was the authors intention but instead he doesn't add any of that. Since the author should have made a comment like this if it were the case and yet does not might tend to suggest that he actually wasn't stronger than his father... not the other way around. What evidence am I leaving out? I haven't avoided a single point that was made against my theory. The implication that Goku is actually a bit stronger happens twice. 1. Goku does much better fighting Cell than Gohan. 2. After fighting Gohan, Cell only wants to fight the strongest and he still thinks that person is Goku. Those 2 can certainly be twisted into being something other than what they appear on their surface but that is where it is implied. As I've repeatedly stated, the comments about "could you follow the fight" and "did you think I was holding back?" only prove that he was around Goku's level, not proof that he surpassed his level. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 23:19:09 GMT
Yes, which is exactly why it's so strange that at no time does cell or anyone else make any direct comments comparing goku and gohan. Cell could have easily said "I see you're stronger than your father but that's still not enough against me" or any of the z fighters could have said "wow, you surpassed your father" or Gohan might have said "yeah dad I could follow your movements easily." That would have been simple to add into the story if that was the authors intention but instead he doesn't add any of that. Since the author should have made a comment like this if it were the case and yet does not might tend to suggest that he actually wasn't stronger than his father... not the other way around. The general assumption of the Z fighters and fan base at the time was that Goku was the strongest one present and had the best chance against Cell. There would be no point to bring that into question and have Gohan explain that he thought Goku was holding back unless it's meant to reveal some new information. Toriyama could've easily NOT included this conversation and simply let us continue assuming Goku was the strongest until SSJ2 was revealed. These are the reasons why I think Gohan is stronger than Goku in SSJ1 from a previous comment: 1. Gohan thinks Goku was going all out against Cell because he compared Goku's power to his own. Either that means Gohan is stronger or equal to Goku. 2. Everyone was surprised when Gohan powered-up initially against Cell and Cell says Goku wasn't lying and there was some truth to it. The other Z fighters were surprised because what Goku said about Gohan was true. If it wasn't then someone would've pointed it out. Cell says there's some truth to it because he agrees with what Goku said. 3. Cell decided to use his full speed against Gohan which implies he was faster than Goku. If Gohan was weaker than Goku, Cell wouldn't need to power-up at all and could easily defeat Gohan with the same power and speed he used against Goku. |
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Post by Axalon on Jan 28, 2017 0:24:01 GMT
Please point to the specific scene where he is shown to have no will to fight. Having NO will to fight isn't quite accurate, but I see what thejakub is driving at. He clearly has some will to fight, otherwise he'd just roll over and let Cell kill him, or wouldn't have bothered even replacing Goku in the first place. Gohan's just not willing to go 100%, nor is he able to go 100% at this point. This is due to lacking his father's fighting spirit. Even as a SS1 he isn't giving it everything he has, spending half the fight just sitting there in shock while the Cell Jrs harm his family and friends. @skar has basically summed it all up with his latest post on this front. No one sees Gohan power up and say Goku's a damn liar, even Piccolo, who is constantly concerned for Gohan's life throughout the fight and was prepared to commit suicide trying to save him. If SS1 Gohan were in fact weaker than Goku then Piccolo would've said so. Instead, he simply stands by and allows Gohan to proceed, only interfering again when he thinks Goku's plan to get Gohan pissed off and even stronger isn't going to work, and he does it convincingly enough that even Goku changes his mind and is about to fight Cell again with a senzu. Cell himself says that Goku's claim "wasn't just a bluff after all" after seeing Gohan's strength as a SS1. Goku has made two statements to Cell regarding Gohan: 1. Gohan is stronger than himself or Cell. 2. Gohan is the only person capable of defeating Cell. Cell undeniably acknowledges that Goku's claim isn't entirely a bluff, but immediately puts to rest which of the above two statements he doesn't believe--that Gohan can actually defeat him. Ergo, he recognizes Gohan's power for what it is. He's not concerned about Gohan's current level of power of course, but like Piccolo, he doesn't angrily call Goku a wholesale liar either. |
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 28, 2017 1:13:17 GMT
The problem is that there are two conflicting statements:
Gohan: "You were holding back."
Goku: "No I wasn't."
They can't both be true.
Similarly, there are several hypothetical power levels:
X: Goku's level against Cell
Y: Goku's max
Z: Gohan's max
Goku cannot be stronger than his max, so X < Y.
Gohan was able to keep up with the fight, but he also considered Goku's level to be "not serious." This indicates X < Z.
If Goku was lying and not taking his fight with Cell seriously, the equation has two options:
X < Z < Y -- Goku is stronger than Gohan at max.
X < Y < Z -- Goku is weaker than Gohan at max.
...but this brings up the question of why the heck Goku was lying.
If Goku is telling the truth, the equation is forced to be X = Y < Z. Goku's level against Cell was his max, which was less than Gohan's max.
Again:
-- Gohan cannot be weaker than Goku's level against Cell.
-- Goku is not lying to Gohan when he said he was doing his best.
Only Goku knew about Gohan having SS2, yet Gohan, Cell, Piccolo, and all the other Z-Fighters didn't think Goku was bluffing when he sent Gohan out to fight. This only makes sense if Gohan was stronger than Goku. Also throw in how Gohan did such a great job dodging that Cell had to increase his speed from what it was against Goku, or how Gohan made no attempt to hurt Cell until Cell had threatened his friends, and you get the conclusion that Gohan was equal or superior to Goku in every way except actual desire to fight.
From a storytelling perspective Goku had always been the strongest Z-Fighter and the audience didn't know about SS2, so the shock of the moment was derived from the natural assumption that Gohan had passed up his dad. The theme of the whole arc is Gohan taking over as a hero: how much more chilling is it if Gohan knows he's the strongest even before he unlocks his transformation? If he can't handle Cell as a Super Saiyan, then Daddy can't come and save him. He's the final line of defense. It makes the fight much higher stakes than if Goku was stronger.
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