Theories, Questions, Debates

1. I don't really think the Spirit Bomb was anything special. Buu's regeneration made him hard to kill, but I think any ki attack could have potentially killed him, but it needed to be powerful enough to engulf all of him and last long enough to eradicate every last bit of him. That is essentially what the Spirit Bomb did. It's sheer size ensured it got every last bit of Buu and it lasted long enough until he was completely eradicated.

2. I think Gohan was level 1 in the manga, but level 2 in the anime. The manga was surprisingly consistent with having lightning around the aura for SS2. Gohan never had the lightning around. The anime was more inconsistent with lightning so it is not a good indicator of level 2. Personally I feel the anime and manga saw Gohan's decline in skill and power during the seven year time skip differently. The anime took it to being a big decline with Dabura having the advantage in the battle. Both Vegeta and Goku comment on how much Gohan declined in skill and power. Dabura is portrayed to be stronger than they expected. The manga the battle isn't given a lot of focus, but from what we saw it was more even than in the anime. While Vegeta is still annoyed Gohan hadn't dusted Dabura Goku did defend him a bit more and doesn't seem as concerned about Gohan's chances than in the anime. They both agree had Gohan continued to train he would have easily killed Dabura. I'm inclined to believe Gohan's decline wasn't as sharp and Dabura wasn't really as powerful as Goku and Vegeta speculated. I can see level 1 being strong enough to give Dabura a challenge.

3. I think there is a limit that can only be overcome by transforming, but once that happens it becomes possible to strengthen the lesser forms. I don't think the lesser forms can easily reach the same level of power they had on initial transformation. For example I don't think after three years of training for the androids that Goku's base was as stronger as his Super Saiyan form was on Namek.

4. When DB ended I think Gohan was pretty much at his limit to how strong he could get. With new DB I think god ki was introduced to get around previous limitations and potentially reach unlimited amount of power. The three years between Freeza and Cell Freeza and SS Goku's powers were no longer milestones anymore with even Piccolo being implied to not be terribly behind Super Saiyans after training with Goku. The characters gains were pretty large. The seven year gap between Cell and Buu Cell and SS2 Gohan's powers are still milestone. Piccolo hasn't reached that level in that time. While Goku and Vegeta surpassed them with SS2 it was never indication that they did it by a large margin. This really stands out when you realize Goku could go SS3 and his level 2 still wasn't significantly more than Gohan's was. That seems to indicate the gains weren't as much as the past and they were reaching a limit. The reason SS3 put so much stress on the body is because it was too much power for the body to handle. With god ki allows mortal bodies to potentially have a new limit and can handle more power than before. In theory Gohan's body reached its max with Old Kai unlocking his full potential with normal ki and that the only way he could get stronger is if he obtained god ki.

5. I do really think Gotenks' max was a bit stronger than Super Buu. At one point Gotenks was close to actually killing him. I think if he was holding back he would have used more of his power so as not to be in that situation.

I had an idea that the kioken and spirit bomb were meant to be used together by two people, someone does kioken X5 the other absorbs that access energy bypassing the negative affects for a little while but because Goku was alone and in a rush I believe he was tought a form of the SB so he could absorb other types of energy.

1.It is implied that the Super Spirit Bomb is a lot stronger than any attack SSJ3 Goku or SSJ2 Vegeta could fire, which was the reason Vegeta suggested forming a Spirit Bomb in the first place.(I think)
2.I don't think this should even be a debate, we all know the answer.
3.After Dragon Ball Super Chapter 15, I think it is clear that no form has a limit, but maybe they still have some sort of a roof.
4.In my opinion, after the ritual, Gohan reached his top, and no amount of training can make him stronger, it will probably only keep his power level(Though it would be cool if he can get even stronger).
5.Most probably yes, as we saw SSJ3 Gotenks nearly killed Super Buu, even though he was just goofing around and was not taking the fight as seriously as he should have, after all, the entire universe was at stake.
6.I agree completely with you on this one, and I haven't seen this theory before, but now that you mention it, it does make sense.

But its implied that those arent the only zenkais vegeta ever recieved.

1. Let's assume that the power levels read by scouters are linear and more or less accurate. Most people I've seen don't seem to disagree with that. Let's also assume that power levels can, in principle, be extended infinitely—ie, even if Frieza's scouter technology or the methodology used break down around the power of Frieza's final form, in principle power levels can be extended indefinitely (with a measured power level of three million being half a percent of 600 million, which is 10% of six billion, etc). Some people would disagree with parts of this, but it's essentially just saying that power levels are a useful abstraction post-Frieza, so I hope it isn't too disagreeable. Finally, let's assume that sapient creatures (ie, humans and creatures with human-like intelligence) give more energy than other life (perhaps because they can actually give consent), and that the energy they give is roughly proportional to their power level. I've never seen this come up, so I have no idea if it's something most people are fine with.
The farmer who Raditz killed had a power level of 5, while Bulma's has been listed as 12 (according to the movie 3 pamphlet) or 15 (Dragon Ball Carddass, with Ginyu's mind). These are pretty close, so Bulma's power level is probably around a dozen—more than twice that of the farmer. Why? Well, the farmer seemed to be out of shape, while Bulma was still in her prime. If we assume this is reasonable, we can see that even normal civilian humans have a wide spread of power levels. This makes sense, given how far Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, et al became while training for the Saiyans (and how even the ones who didn't get alien power boosts were able to beat up Frieza's mooks in Resurrection F). So let's assume that the seven billion or so humans who contributes to the spirit bomb have an average power level around 20, accounting for both the mass of weak normal ones and the handful who trained more. Round up a bit to account for gods, cyborgs, Saiyans, and such chipping in, and we can estimate that the spirit bomb had the combined energy of about 150 billion.
I like Kaboom's power level estimates, so let's glance at them. Unless he's half of an order of magnitude off, "Pure Boo" (aka Kid Buu, aka that destructive little twerp) has a power level well below 150 billion. Hence, if we make about a paragraph's worth of assumptions, it makes perfect sense that the spirit bomb which Mr. Satan convinced literally every human being on Earth to help with would destroy Buu.
As to why previous spirit bombs were duds: They didn't have a significant amount of energy from sapient beings.
2. I don't know and don't know why I should care. But if he didn't have lightning around him, he was probably SSJ.
3. Yes and no. Supplementary material suggests that SSJ forms work as multipliers, which fits pretty well with canon. So Goku would never be at a point where he couldn't improve his base strength but could make himself stronger in SSJ3. However, Toriyama suggested that Goku and Vegeta were near their limits by the end of DBZ, so they wouldn't be getting much stronger by any means. Unless they unlocked new transformations (SSJ4 or SSJG or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan).
4. The way the kaioshin's power-up worked is something I'm curious about, too.
5. Probably. I seem to recall that SSJ3 Gotenks was thrashing Buu before defusing. Of course, if you add Ultimystic Gohan to the Buu, the picture grows...murkier.
6. How does fighting make you stronger? How does kamehameha-ing yourself make you stronger, and kamehameha-ing yourself in 10x or 100x gravity make you stronger faster? How does golden hair make you fifty times stronger, or really, really long golden hair make you eight times stronger than that? I've never really worried about the how, just the how much (approximately). And the "how much"-es from both training and zenkais don't seem very consistent.


Eh...something about that feels...off. For starters, wouldn't that mean that any Saiyan who got wounded when Frieza was around would instantly become stronger than any other Saiyan? And what about a Saiyan mortally wounded by something other than a living creature, or someone with weapons instead of pure strength, or mortally wounded by a weaker guy (like that time Vegeta convinced Krillin to almost kill him).




My question is: In general, how does the Ultimate/Mystic Gohan thing work? Is it a one-time thing, or something he can always do? (It sure sounded permanent when the kaioshin did it.) Does is stack with SSJ forms, disable them, or supplement them, or what? (Gohan uses SSJ less than you'd think if they stacked and more than you'd think if they didn't, or if he couldn't turn.) And how much power did it give him—all he could get from training, all he could get from training and achieving the highest SSJ form he could, more than he could get from training, less? (That's just an academic question, but one which apparently matters to people I saw when I googled questions like that some time back.)

From what Old Kai made it sound like his power up was permanent and that it drew out the max potential in someone and enhanced it. IMO Old Kai drew out all the power Gohan could have ever hoped to naturally attained through training. The enhancement he was talking about was creating a magically enhanced base form that could harness all that power without Super Saiyan transformations to eliminate the strain the transformations put on the body. Not only is Gohan as strong as he could be, but is even better since the naturally limitations that prevent most races for attaining that power are gone. It wouldn't say it stacks the forms power up, but rather it eliminates the forms as regulators of power. He mentioned Gohan could go Super Saiyan, but it wouldn't make him any stronger. Gohan has the option of going SS1 or SS2 maybe even SS3, but it would be cosmetic difference. In theory I don't think a lack of training would make it go away, since its magic already allowed Gohan to access his power without the transformations. I don't think training could make him stronger at least not when DB originally ended.

GT and new material like Resurrection F seem to favor the no training means it is lost power up, which means Gohan could get stronger now. In theory the only way Gohan could get stronger than Mystic form would be to obtain god ki to surpass his normal limitations and as an added bonus eliminate the strain on his body SSB form, which for whatever reason enhances the body to put less strain than Super Saiyan forms do.  

Shoot, son, some of these are hard.

1. Hehe, I've thought about this one before. I've got a few ideas:
a) the Body Change is an instant-defuse; Ginyu isn't swapped, but Gotenks splits into two.
b) Ginyu takes over Gotenks' body and dies when the timer runs out; Gotenks is now permanent, and in Ginyu's body.
c) Ginyu takes over Gotenks' body and defuses into two personalities when the timer runs out. It could work a little bit like Kami and Piccolo, except not good and evil halves; instead, I bet it'd be more Trunks-y half and more Goten-y half.
d) Ginyu swaps with one of the personalities making up Gotenks; Gotenks gets a little evil and Ginyu-like for the rest of the timer, then Ginyu ends up in either Goten or Trunks' body when the fusion wears off.

If Ginyu was to swap with Gast, he would take over the dominant personality (Guru? Nail?) but if he was unfused, none of the other Nameks participating in the fusion would be Ginyu'd.

2. I'd say if Kami dies, immortal Piccolo dies. But then again, it depends on how immortality works. In Dead Zone "immortality" was interpreted that Garlic Jr. could feel pain, but he couldn't actually take damage. In the Garlic Jr. filler saga, "immortality" meant he would regenerate from any wound. The same goes for Zamasu. Also, does immortality affect the body itself, or the soul? One could interpret that Piccolo's soul automatically leaves his body if Kami dies, so killing Kami would bypass immortality.
Huh...this makes me think. If Ginyu swapped with Garlic Jr., would he be immortal and Garlic Jr. not?

3. I would like that to be possible, but I don't know if it is. If so, it's only Potara + another person. I would think Fusion Dance + Fusion Dance or Fusion Dance + Potara would be too unstable to work at all.

4. Hmm...he said he knew the Kaioken, so it's at least in his genes. I don't think he could actually use it, though, due to being evil. (Yeah, he's "pure evil" but I don't think that's really what the Spirit Bomb means.)

5. Depends on how evil Beerus actually is, and if God ki grants protection against normal ki attacks or magic. I'd like to think that there's something about god ki itself that would make Beerus invulnerable, but I've got nothing to back that up. I think Beerus isn't pure of heart, but I could easily see Toriyama saying "No, no! He just gets in bad moods, he's actually pure good!" I say yeah, Devilmite Beam could kill Beerus.

1. My guess is it depends on the Fusion. If Ginyu takes Gotenks' body then he would switch places with one of the components aka Goten or Trunks and when the fusion ends Ginyu will be stuck in one of their bodies, while other one will be in their normal body. If Ginyu tries to take someone like Vegetto's body since the fusion permanently bonds two people as a single being, their souls will be one whole soul. Ginyu will be in Vegetto's body, while Vegetto will be in Ginyu's body.

2. I say it depends on how the wish is worded and how the dragon interprets it. If he is feeling like a dick and Piccolo words his wish like "I want a body that cannot be killed," he could give him a body that is cannot be destroyed, but not extend it to Kami since they have two different bodies, so if Kami dies from old age or is killed Piccolo automatically dies without violating the rules of the wish. Piccolo's body wasn't killed, but his life was wiped out. If Piccolo says he wants to live forever the dragon might grant him infinite life span, so he cannot die of old age this it extends to Kami as well since the wish extends to him, but leaves it open for either of them dying by being killed.

3. I think as long as you meet the requirements it is possible. I think an adult Gotenks could probably fuse with Gogeta since they still look similar and the latter can lower his power to fuse with him. When the fusion ends they probably split into four bodies instead of two. Their power will probably be so massive the fusion time will be reduced further.

4. Cell told Krillin, Piccolo, and Trunks he could do it. My guess is it would be a terrible move for him to use. Even if he had time to make one if he throws that at the Z-fighters that them being pure of heart would give them a chance to bounce it back on him and since he is not pure of heart he is gonna die.

5. I'm going to go on limb and say Beerus is immune to anything and everything that could kill him regardless of if the technique or spell can kill or diminishing someone's life force, on the basis of being a god, even though that doesn't seem to benefit any of the Kais or other gods. 

I'm sorry if someone came up with this already, but I was wondering today: How exactly does the Potara earrings combine 2 people?Exactly how strong and fast is their pulling force?Do the fusees need to be in close proximity to one another, or maybe they can be in different corners in the universe and it will still work?And how fast are they pulled towards one another, is it at light speed, slower or maybe even FTL?I guess a lot hasn't been explained in Dragon Ball about them, and Super made matters even worse, yet again stealing ideas from Salagir.