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Post by R I P I R I U S on Dec 30, 2016 8:14:06 GMT
1. I did forget to add this to my previous question about SS3 transformation. But, why do you guys think it was easier to maintain that form in the Otherworld? Was it the environment or due to certain limitations in the mortal world?
2. Also, Gotenks technically is a complete Saiyan temporarily, so my guess is that half-Saiyans cannot push themselves to SS3?
3. And what about Satan getting stronger? If Videl learned how to control her ki to fly and she is now stronger than him couldn't he at least try even after all these years? It would sure help in times of need you know, with better training he could well come to Krillin's level. 4. What about #18? Can she get stronger? Same goes for Piccolo. How far can he push himself without fusing with fellow Namekians?
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 30, 2016 8:29:09 GMT
1. I did forget to add this to my previous question about SS3 transformation. But, why do you guys think it was easier to maintain that form in the Otherworld? Was it the environment or due to certain limitations in the mortal world? 2. Also, Gotenks technically is a complete Saiyan temporarily, so my guess is that half-Saiyans cannot push themselves to SS3? 3. And what about Satan getting stronger? If Videl learned how to control her ki to fly and she is now stronger than him couldn't he at least try even after all these years? It would sure help in times of need you know, with better training he could well come to Krillin's level. 4. What about #18? Can she get stronger? Same goes for Piccolo. How far can he push himself without fusing with fellow Namekians? It has to be because a living body requires more energy than a dead one. It can't be environment, because Goku fought Kid Buu in Otherworld. Goku said he could maintain the form for a long time back when he was dead. I don't think that is right at all. Goten and Trunks were both half Saiyan and half human. Them fusing wouldn't really suppress either of their human sides to make them a full Saiyan. SS3 is a level a half-Saiyans can reach as well. Hercule could still get stronger if he wanted to. I think Videl surpassed him even before she started learning ki. Gohan suspected the reason he stopped training with Videl was to prevent her from learning that fact. I'm not sure if learning ki would let him surpass Videl necessarily. I'm going go on limb and say 18 can get stronger. She is a cyborg and human enough to have a child. I think she could train to get stronger. This running on the assumption her cybernetics are enhancing her body to make her strong though. I think she could train to make herself even stronger. I think Piccolo was still getting stronger, but his rate of increase wasn't as fast as the Saiyans. We never saw him fight all out in the Buu arc, so it was hard to gauge his power. We know he wasn't as strong as Perfect Cell and SS2 Gohan yet. Honestly I felt like since Piccolo was young he could potentially reach that level without fusing again, but problem is DB is all about the newest power and transformations that even in Super it means Piccolo could reach Majin Buu level in the future, but since it is so last season he wouldn't be able to do much and so we would never know.
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Post by Eldagusto on Dec 30, 2016 10:05:50 GMT
1. I did forget to add this to my previous question about SS3 transformation. But, why do you guys think it was easier to maintain that form in the Otherworld? Was it the environment or due to certain limitations in the mortal world? 2. Also, Gotenks technically is a complete Saiyan temporarily, so my guess is that half-Saiyans cannot push themselves to SS3? 3. And what about Satan getting stronger? If Videl learned how to control her ki to fly and she is now stronger than him couldn't he at least try even after all these years? It would sure help in times of need you know, with better training he could well come to Krillin's level. 4. What about #18? Can she get stronger? Same goes for Piccolo. How far can he push himself without fusing with fellow Namekians? 1. My interpretation is it is a two fold explanation. As a Soul in otherworld Goku needs not worry about dying from his heart stopping and his brain stroking out, or his blood hemorrhaging, ect... he is spirit with a spirit body, so he can push himself anytime he wants beyond the stress that would normally make him pass out in the living world. And 2nd the Otherworld seems more rich in supernatural energy, it is the realm of the Gods and sleeping and eating there seems much more restorative then on Earth. When powering up you are using you're own Ki, but it seems to interact with the physics of your environment, hence tempests when going full power on Earth, and Going SSJ3 seems to distort local physics to some sort of degree as Goku seems to make the environment on Earth and even the Room of Spirit and time warp somewhat, and Vegetto actually displays evidence of Exponential increase in Mass, hence he has the mass of a Moon when going serious. So I believe Goku Discovered SSJ 3 because for one he has been trained in both mystical, and enlightened aspects of Martial Arts by the Gods and training in Heaven not having to worry about destroying himself or others he was able to tap into the highest level. On Earth when given temporary life SSJ3 Dilated Time, reducing his given time on Earth, in Heaven he has no time Limit. And when Alive he has no time limit but it strains him terribly. There are a few things people forget mentioned in Early DB, for one they compared training like a week on Kings Kai's planet to training for Millenia on Earth. I don't think they are literal when they say this though, But I do believe they are hinting at a few things, like the Gods having enlightened magic training, high gravity, quick healing on his planet. Goku Didn't spend a year Training with King Kai, it was more like a Season. And Pickles trained for an even shorter period of time and he had a drastic increase in power as well. 2. I don't believe Gotenks is a complete Saiyan, no I think it has to do with Fusion amplifying a number of qualities inherent to the individual, for Gotenks he became unbearably prideful and Juvenile, but he also became a Genius, an idiot Savant. As children they were imaginative and also didn't know of any limit to their power or the rules of the Universe, I believe this limitless psychology of theirs were also amplified and with their newfound power they effortlessly applied it to strange and advanced techniques. Normally Saiyans don't have such fine control of Ki, normally they are limited to very strong pushing, they have less power to say pull something but they do have some capacity of this and can thus levitate rocks, but they don't have refined Telekinesis or energy Control. Like Frost Demons for instance can naturally manipulate energy and have refined Telekinesis. So even weaker Frost Demons can lift and twirl rocks or project energy in more complex forms then concussion or heat. Fused Gotenks not knowing these things are supposed to difficult had few barrier to restrict them when they have the power to finally do things. For instance normally Saiyans have to be tremendously powerful to manipulate energy in fine ways rather then in blunt force. For instance only the most talented Elite picked up the trick of channeling energy into a ball of atmosphere and maintaining it as a moon ball. So I think Fused powerful entities are just closer to tapping into their full potential. Why Trunks, Vegeta, and Gohan, Goten ect didn't achieve SSJ3 is because it is plain difficult to achieve. I wager its not just a power and discipline thing, In my opinion its a complexity issue. Goku was more talented in Esoteric ki training, like he could read minds and such, Vegeta for instance is more a pragmatic martial Artists. He is less into the Esoteric methods. He is more a combination of professional Athlete and street fighter. He had no wise enlightened teach. SSJ was a hurdle because the pioneering Generation of Goku and Vegeta had to reach a level of power to touch upon it and a level of emotional enlightenment. Children achieved it early because they were way stronger then Goku or Vegeta were at that age and they discovered it by imitating their elders without knowing it was something so difficult to achieve. Goten and Trunks learned it quick because they learned it in a non stress environment and naturally discovered by playing Around. Gohan was stressed and had to increase his power and tried to hard to learn it, while also doubting himself and believe he couldn't be as strong as his father. 3. Satan trains using an athletic method, so he trains like an athlete using mundane training, he is rather brilliant for mundane humans not trained in supernatural martial arts. But he also had his master killed by a Ki user so he developed a mental barrier thinking ki powers are tricks and are cheating awful wrong, and also impossible. So basically I think Satan for one doesn't believe he can learn how to fly, and two believes himself to have reached his peak. So he won't be growing powerful unless somebody gives him intense supernatural training. He's comic relief and an everyman so he won't learn cool powers. 4. I believe 18 has been training, it is implied she developed Kienzan through training with her husband. But she isn't naturally a warrior, she is more like a superhero, in that she was given great powers. She more supernaturally strong, fast and agile, rather then supernaturally skillful. I believe she hasn't warn down as much of her body as Future Trunk's 18 because she spends life as a wife and mother, and only training for fun. And the Novel indicates Bulma is the one who gave her a upgrade to make her capable of birthing a baby, I reckon Bulma also probably worked out some issues of minor maintenance as well. So I don't think Bulma brought her back to full power, I think she probably mostly just prevented her from degrading as fast. Kind of like a half a decade physical or something. Boy this was a longer post then I thought.
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Post by fooshin on Dec 30, 2016 11:35:28 GMT
I'm going go on limb and say 18 can get stronger. She is a cyborg and human enough to have a child. I think she could train to get stronger. This running on the assumption her cybernetics are enhancing her body to make her strong though. I think she could train to make herself even stronger. Maybe someone can clarify this but I'm not sure from reading the manga but a lot of people think that 17 and 18 do not have or use ki and are therefore invisible in that respect the way 19 and 20 were. But they are human based and humans have ki and are detectable in that respect whether they know how to use it or not. Of course the vast majority of their power is energy that is mechanically generated and wouldn't be detectable but I assume they still are human enough to have some small amount of it unlike their pure robot counterparts. I think to your particular point and perhaps to my question as well it could be that there is so little remaining of their humanity that it might be impossible for them to train what could be mere trace amounts of unaltered human cells. It could be they are too tainted with technology for their bodies to use ki at all.
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Post by Eldagusto on Dec 30, 2016 11:40:25 GMT
I believe their Lifeforce ki is so minuscule as to be undetectable, or possibly only very perceptive beings like Goku, Vegetto, Dendekami, or Kais can notice. Perhaps since possibly their Hearts are mostly replaced by Reactor Organs, and their brains are partially digitized it nulls some of their energy signature so they may read more like simpler nonmammalian lifeforms, possibly on the level of plant lifeforce.
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