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Post by Son Pan on Nov 18, 2016 4:39:16 GMT
Ok, here's one of my dbz questions: What the hell is Mr popo? Besides some kind of slightly racist joke, is there anything more that explains his existence? I think Popo is based off a djinn. Maybe he is a real djinn and it would explain why he appears to be ageless and seemingly serving the Kami of Earth. I'm sorry if someone came up with this already, but I was wondering today: How exactly does the Potara earrings combine 2 people?Exactly how strong and fast is their pulling force?Do the fusees need to be in close proximity to one another, or maybe they can be in different corners in the universe and it will still work?And how fast are they pulled towards one another, is it at light speed, slower or maybe even FTL?I guess a lot hasn't been explained in Dragon Ball about them, and Super made matters even worse, yet again stealing ideas from Salagir. This is going to sound cheap, but magic is probably how the earrings just combine people. I thought they were a weapon the Kais made to use to combine with each other in a last ditch effort in case they faced something more before then them. It seems to take the strongest traits of two people and combine them to make the strongest possible combination. Supreme Kai and Old Kai both seemed to be the primary bodies when they fused with Kibito and the witch, my guess is that worked because they were both Kais and so it automatically made them the primary. With Goku and Vegeta being non Kais made them a more even union. I don't think the earrings work if there is too much distance between them. If they are on other sides of the universe I don't see the magical force being strong enough to pull them together. No idea on the speed. Something that has always bothered me about one of the franchise's major villains... why was Perfect Cell evil? okay, he wanted to achieve his perfect form, he was literally told he was incomplete and he had to work for his completion, that's fair, I understand his motivation on that, but then he achieves perfection, fights off Vegeta and Trunks literally for fun, and goes "alright, Cell games, where I will kill all of Earth's defenders and destroy the planet when they fail", I undestand his motivation in wanting to fight all of Earth's defenders, he clearly took great joy in fighting, probably from his Saiyan DNA, and he wanted to prove to himself and to the world at large that he was indeed perfect... but what destroying Earth would accomplish? it would completelly erase any trace of his beloved creator off the face of the universe, it would waste a lot of resources he could use to build stuff after he was done with all the fighting, and even if he really wanted to be evil, he is still wasting a few millions, possibly billions depending the exact world population of DBverse's Earth, of potential slaves that would be completelly subjugated under his (comparatively) immense power. I just never understood his motivation in that, specially because there are so many more constructive ways of using Earth for evil if he really wanted to be evil due to Gero's indocrination(I wouldn't call it "programing", Cell is too organic to be "programed"), he could create his own empire, which would be perfectly in line with Red Ribbon's original objectives, he could force all humans to worship him as a god, something I am sure someone as narcisistic as Cell would love, he could hunt down and drink every last living being on Earth, which given that a fraction of Earth's collective energy was enough to kill Kid Buu, is a LOT, or at least he could force Dr Briefs to build him a proper luxurious spaceship, so he can comfortably travel the universe, I am sure travelling in the vacuum is uncomfortable even if he can survive it, and above all else... it feels out of character for Cell, he is smarter than just wanting to destroy stuff for the sake of destroying stuff, specially something as useful as an entire race's worth of slaves. Cell is pretty sadistic. That was one characteristic he seemed to have in every form. I think he developed his sadistic streak from draining people to fuel his power. He pretty much told Trunks he had no interest in world domination or conquest, but rather enjoyed causing fear and killing people. To him the Earth served its purpose in allowing him to perfect himself, now he wants to test it his power out and explore. I imagine if Cell had won and destroyed the Earth he would have preferred to travel the stars under his own power to test his abilities and explore under his own power rather than make a space ship to do it. In a lot of ways Cell is like Buu. He had no other way of life other than killing because his creator made him to do it. Unlike Buu he developed a liking for it and chose to continue doing it once he achieved his goal. With the Freeza and Cold in his DNA he knew he could survive the vacuum of space and travel the stars that probably played a big part in his decision to destroy the Earth. If Freeza had never come he most likely would have stayed on Earth and killed people like 17 and 18 did. That's the thing about Cell. He has no grand plan for conquest or achieving some legacy or even to uphold Gero's ideals. Unlike 17 and 18 he has more respect and fondness for Gero, but he doesn't necessary follow his wishes in restoring the Red Ribbon Army. In other ways Cell is like a Saiyan. He enjoys fighting and killing, lusts for power for its own sake, but unlike Vegeta who wanted rule the universe he is like Nappa. As screwed up as this sounds there are a number of people who like to hurt others because it makes them feel good. Sometimes there is no grand plan or justification. People just find joy in hurting or torturing people. He's like one of those kids who picks the wings off a fly or burning ants with magnifying glasses. In the way it makes Cell stand out as a villain. Freeza or Vegeta had aspirations of conquest and carving up empires for themselves, but Cell finds joy in simple killing and causing destruction because he gets kick out watching them run around. There is no grand plan to make a Cell Dynasty. It is what makes him more terrifying. He can't be reasoned with. There is nothing he wants beyond killing you. It's not the grandest motivation of a villain and a cliche, but it is a cliche for a reason. History has shown us that.
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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 18, 2016 5:30:57 GMT
fooshinMr Popo is a demon that Kami beat and tamed, I think. My DB knowledge is very rusty.
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Post by kinnikuman on Nov 23, 2016 6:29:17 GMT
Was android 8 (Eighter) A human at one point or always a robot. At first it's assumed 100% bot but recently with buu arc (Being wished back to life) And Black (Giving Trunks his life energy) Was he human... and could imperfect cell have absorbed him?
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 25, 2016 4:26:01 GMT
Wasn't 8 a modified human like 17 and 18?
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Post by The Masterman on Nov 25, 2016 16:49:07 GMT
Wasn't 8 a modified human like 17 and 18? Not sure, I think he was more like 16 and 19 because I watched him blow up in The Path to Power and he was mostly machine though it's non canon.
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Post by Android 13 on Nov 25, 2016 19:43:30 GMT
Was android 8 (Eighter) A human at one point or always a robot. At first it's assumed 100% bot but recently with buu arc (Being wished back to life) And Black (Giving Trunks his life energy) Was he human... and could imperfect cell have absorbed him? Android 8 is 100% mechanical, just like Android 16.He also shares his love for nature/life with 16, but is still a machine.It's true, in Super and in Z he gave the Spirit Bomb energy, and was wished back to life several times with the Dragon Balls.But I guess that's just Toriyama forgetting stuff like usual .16 sadly never got back with the Dragon Balls, I think he would have been a perfect addition to the Z-Fighters with his love for nature and calm, calculative thinking.
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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 25, 2016 21:00:22 GMT
Android 13And all it would've taken was one wish to repair 16 and he could've come back... (If Shenron can bring 17 back to life as a cyborg, he can put 16 back together again) And another thingVegito dies, does he go to the Afterlife, do Vegeta and Goku's souls finally separate, or do all 3 get there? And what would happen if Gogeta were to be killed mid-fusion?
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Post by Android 13 on Nov 25, 2016 21:33:43 GMT
Android 13 And all it would've taken was one wish to repair 16 and he could've come back... (If Shenron can bring 17 back to life as a cyborg, he can put 16 back together again) And another thingVegito dies, does he go to the Afterlife, do Vegeta and Goku's souls finally separate, or do all 3 get there? And what would happen if Gogeta were to be killed mid-fusion? That's a very tricky one.I don't know for sure, but we saw dead Vegeta and alive Goku fuse into Vegito, who is canon, and Vegito didn't have a halo.We also saw dead Goku and dead Vegata fuse into Gogeta, who had a halo, so I think if Vegito died theoretically, he would be still Vegito in afterlife, as for Gogeta, that's a total mindfuck, but I would say they would have their souls separated at the moment of death, or after the fusion time runs out.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 26, 2016 6:24:15 GMT
Vegito dies, does he go to the Afterlife, do Vegeta and Goku's souls finally separate, or do all 3 get there? And what would happen if Gogeta were to be killed mid-fusion? I'm assuming that if Vegito died, he'd go to the afterlife as Vegito. Since Potara fusion is permanent, it creates an entirely new being when two people merge and that the fusion doesn't end upon death. As for the Gogeta thing...it has always been my opinion that Fusion Dance creates an entirely new body through the technique's magic. This body is temporary and cannot be "killed," because if a fusion sustains enough damage to "die," it splits into the two fusees. So if Gogeta was fighting Vegito and got stabbed through the chest with the Spirit Sword, he would defuse into Goku and Vegeta. In some ways, the Fusion Dance is like getting a Super Mushroom in Mario: you're stronger, and you can withstand one more fatal blow than you normally could. It seems like Salagir views Fusion Dance this way, going by the Gotenks vs. Buu fight. When Gotenks got hit by the carbonite, when the carbonite advanced far enough, he defused into Goten and Trunks, with no carbonite in sight. If Gotenks had been a Potara fusion like Vegito, the carbonite would've killed him. Since Gotenks' body is magical, and isn't actually made from physically smushing Goten and Trunks together, when Gotenks defused the carbonite disappeared with Gotenks.
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Post by TheAncientCenturion on Nov 26, 2016 10:31:21 GMT
I haven't read much of the thread. So maybe I am missing some points, but I'll put my two cents out regardless.
1. Because the Spirit Bomb is specifically made to combat negative souls/presences, isn't it? I imagine it was such a powerful ki bomb that it destroyed Buu on a molecular level far too quickly for him to reform, and kept going after that, leaving virtually nothing left to reform him from.
2. Super Saiyan 2. If I recall correctly, Kibito knew of and beckoned Gohan to go Super Saiyan, and wasn't too bothered by his power. But Super Saiyan 2 surprised him greatly. Likewise, the presence of Dabura made both Kai's uneasy. If he were only a level for an experienced Super Saiyan like Gohan to fight, it wouldn't make that much sense for Kibito or The Supreme Kai to be worried. They witnessed Gohan go beyond that already and presumably knew of others (Goku and Vegeta) who could use that skill. So, Super Saiyan 2, but as we all know, weaker then his "teenage" self that fought and destroyed Super Cell.
3. I'd begrudgingly say that each level has a certain point where it caps off at. This is my own understanding of it, but IIRC, Toriyama said all the forms past the regular Super Saiyan wasted energy or something. It was an obvious retcon for the new series, starting from Battle of Gods. Once a person gets to a certain cap, different for everyone, they may find it increasingly hard to get stronger in that form until they unlock the next level/augmented state.
4. Elder Kai brings a persons greatest potential out and then some, I believe. Gohan was likely at his greatest point through natural skill and talent, complimented by the years of training. Is this his limit? No, he can always improve. But, as with a Super Saiyan skill cap, it gets increasingly hard. I see it as, for an apt comparison, farming in a RPG. Killing a level 5 Bandit in The Witcher 3 will only give you so much experience for so long. Eventually, Mystic Gohan would "gain a level" by grinding these guys out. But it'd be an arduous task.
5. SSJ3 Gotenks, is in my mind, generally superior to Super Buu. Raw power wise, he's throwing the guy around. They have a handful of quick clashes, if I'm not wrong, but Gotenks is the obvious victor. The only reason he'd ever lose a fight to Super Buu would be to general inexperience and immaturity. Buu apparently doesn't lose energy, much like an android, he can keep going with no signs of stopping. Gotenks has what, five-ten minutes in that state to finish Buu? I'm sure that, replacing his mindset with Piccolo's, Buu might lose. But Buu's a tough enemy to fully put down and Gotenks has some stipulations limiting him.
At full power, yes, Gotenks is stronger. But it's not by the widest margin and I'd still fancy Buu more times than not, when factoring everything in.
6. Plot. Only way a Zenkai can make Vegeta go from < Transformed Zarbon level to 500,000~ish by the time he clashes with Frieza. That was one zenkai? Two? It doesn't make sense to me, the Saiyans should be a whole hell lot stronger just by in fighting, like, Ginyu-Force level should be the norm for their elites. Yet there were a handful of elites at 10,000. Not even Nappa was considered one, in the databooks. I don't think Zenkai have any strong reason for existing other than to give the Saiyans a good reason to not be horribly outclassed in the Namek and Frieza Sagas.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 26, 2016 13:57:25 GMT
2. Super Saiyan 2. If I recall correctly, Kibito knew of and beckoned Gohan to go Super Saiyan, and wasn't too bothered by his power. But Super Saiyan 2 surprised him greatly. Likewise, the presence of Dabura made both Kai's uneasy. If he were only a level for an experienced Super Saiyan like Gohan to fight, it wouldn't make that much sense for Kibito or The Supreme Kai to be worried. They witnessed Gohan go beyond that already and presumably knew of others (Goku and Vegeta) who could use that skill. So, Super Saiyan 2, but as we all know, weaker then his "teenage" self that fought and destroyed Super Cell. I'm in the camp that says he was SS1. Using Supreme Kai as a judge of strength is, well, silly. Incoming Supreme Kai rant (not really aimed at you TheAncientCenturion , just had to rant since this topic was brought up): Supreme Kai is an idiot. Babadi too. As everyone knows, he horribly misjudged how strong the Saiyans were. He was uneasy with Dabura, but then again he was uneasy with every fighter Babadi threw their way. First he uses the "destroyed hundreds of planets in a few years!" as a measuring stick for Buu's strength, only for Vegeta to scoff at such a pitiful way to measure legendary strength. He then uses Frieza as a measuring stick and says the Kais of old could've defeated him in one blow. Unfortunately he must not have kept up with his Godtube videos, otherwise he would've seen this and realized his Frieza measuring stick was useless thanks to DBZ power creep: Of course, we know for a fact he wasn't aware of Super Saiyan 2 at all given how both he and Kibito were caught off guard.Plus this is the guy who thought Vegeta couldn't take on Pui Pui alone despite having just seen Gohan power up to SS2. Hell, Kibito was sweating with the effort it took him to heal Gohan. Having just been told who Dabura is and having seen Krillin and Piccolo get turned to stone, Supreme Kai then says the only way to change them back is for Dabura to die. Goku's response to having to kill the Demon Lord? "That's Easy!!" In fact, it's highly likely that the Supreme Kai has done about as much homework on Earth history as Dabura. Dabura last checked on humanity 300 years ago. Going off this assumption, it makes sense that he freaks out when Vegeta goes up to solo Pui Pui while Goku calmly assures him he's worried over nothing. If Vegeta were replaced by say, Roshi, his concern would be far more legitimate. An opposing point might be that Kibito knew about Super Saiyans, but given that the Supreme Kai can read minds this may just be him scanning the surface of Gohan or Vegeta. Vegeta later goes on to mock Dabura's strength yet again, (calling Kibito incompetent in the process) with Goku chiming in that even he shouldn't be a problem and that he was only at about Cell's strength, who has at this point been surpassed by the three Saiyans. Supreme Kai still has trouble accepting the strength of Super Saiyans. He does it again when Yakon fights Goku, having just been told that they didn't even think Dabura was a problem, only to be told again to calm down. I'd go so far as to say that Supreme Kai can't even sense power levels given how awfully wrong he was about every single fight up until Buu himself. Using Babadi's kiri scale, Goku (3000) was almost 4x stronger than Yakon (800) as a simple SS1. It isn't until after Yakon OMNOMNOMs too much light and explodes from SS2 Goku that Babadi just STARTS to think to himself that perhaps these three aren't typical Earthlings. Really??! YOU THINK?! It finally takes Vegeta saying that he and Goku were flat out STRONGER than Gohan due to him slacking off for Supreme Kai to finally realize how wrong he is, despite just seeing Pui Pui and Yakon dispatched so easily, and with Goku even powering up to SS2 in the process. To sum up, Supreme Kai is a horrible judge of power. The only thing he was correct about was Buu being stronger than them, but he was so terrible with descriptions and crying wolf on clearly inferior opponents that the Saiyans didn't even take him seriously. Babadi likewise was an ill-prepared fool who didn't do his homework before picking on a planet that had the most powerful Saiyans in history living on it. It was only thanks to Vegeta being a colossal prick that Buu even woke up at all. As for the actual fight between Gohan and Dabura, I'd say SS1. He had none of the distinguishing sparks in the aura that SS2 gives off, (fast forward to Majin Vegeta fighting SS2 Goku and it's a spark festival) and was having a hard time (visibly sweating and panting) with someone around Cell's level, who Goku, now a SS2 himself, declared would be an "easy" kill. Given Vegeta's earlier comment about Gohan being weaker but "anything could happen if he gets angry" it's possible that Gohan can only go SS2 if he's really pissed off. Heck, Trunks would later go on in DBS to fight his own timeline's version of Dabura and defeat him as a SS1 with some help from Supreme Kai: Then again Trunks doesn't slack off like Gohan so I'd say he was vastly stronger than when Gohan fought Dabura.
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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 26, 2016 16:38:41 GMT
AxalonI will pay you in awesome fanart to make a thread to expose just how stupid the Supreme Kai -and Babidi- were.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 27, 2016 15:19:59 GMT
SymbioticDidn't I just do that in the post above? lol
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Nov 27, 2016 16:04:13 GMT
Okay I throw in some question.
1. Are Super Saiyan transformations just pure augmentations or they are the real forms of Saiyans. I thought why note SS transformations be similar to the true powerful forms of the Frost demons? While the SS3 be an augmented form. (I know they would revert back to normal on being knocked out but still)
2. After that, could SS3 be the ancient forms of saiyans? OR SS3 is just a Kaioken counterpart for SS transformation?
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Post by Axalon on Nov 27, 2016 16:13:38 GMT
Okay I throw in some question. 1. Are Super Saiyan transformations just pure augmentations or they are the real forms of Saiyans. I thought why note SS transformations be similar to the true powerful forms of the Frost demons? While the SS3 be an augmented form. (I know they would revert back to normal on being knocked out but still) 2. After that, could SS3 be the ancient forms of saiyans? OR SS3 is just a Kaioken counterpart for SS transformation? Personally I think the ancient form of the Saiyans is a bunch of giant monkeys who evolved to a more human appearance. Their general nature seems to hearken to a sort of primal might makes right instinct. Super Saiyan is to go even...further...beyond. Jokes aside I think its just the next step in Saiyan evolution. The overall number of Saiyans has gone down, but the remaining few now can't turn into giant monkeys (they aren't even born with tails anymore) but it doesn't matter since they've learned to tap into new forms and power. I agree that SS3 is the closest SS gets to being like the Kaioken. It pushes strength beyond the normal limitations but at a cost. Not as damaging as Kaioken, but similar.
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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 27, 2016 18:48:02 GMT
AxalonOh, you could go deeper. You can always go deeper with those two. And regarding SS, sort of like how there are more tuskless African elephants now because of poachers? Oozaru is a great form for beings with low power levels to quickly grow stronger, and the SS form needs a base power to use that's nigh impossible for a Saiyan to get naturally. But once unlocked it beats everything Oozaru can do, besides construction work I guess.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 27, 2016 19:22:51 GMT
Axalon Oh, you could go deeper. You can always go deeper with those two. Very true. I suppose I might try to do that at some point in the future, though I'd have to find time to brush up on these things. Hey now, they can always be reliable stunt doubles for King Kong while they're at it.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 27, 2016 21:27:38 GMT
I think all SS forms are augmented forms. Even SS1 puts a strain on the body. Goku told Gohan that when he first transformed. Each transformation puts more of a strain on the body. Goku and Gohan just trained to minimize the strain in SS1 to where it was almost non-existent. SS3 is the extreme cause of where augmentation gets too much for the body to handle it burns ki and physical stamina faster than the other forms.
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 28, 2016 4:54:22 GMT
I'm sorry if someone came up with this already, but I was wondering today: How exactly does the Potara earrings combine 2 people?Exactly how strong and fast is their pulling force?Do the fusees need to be in close proximity to one another, or maybe they can be in different corners in the universe and it will still work?And how fast are they pulled towards one another, is it at light speed, slower or maybe even FTL?I guess a lot hasn't been explained in Dragon Ball about them, and Super made matters even worse, yet again stealing ideas from Salagir. In my personal opinion, ancient kaioshin magic is what allows two beings to become one. Heck, for all we know the creators of the potara earrings may have viewed the metamorese style of fusion, and made a few "tweaks" here and there to create a godly version of fusion, hence the potara. As for the pulling force, I think it happens relatively fast, but not a light speeds. For example, when Kibito and Supreme Kai were fusing in the anime, we can clearly see the dragging force being quite pitiful in speed, thus suggesting that the users may still have time to pull off the earrings mid-pull. As for proximity, I do not know, but I believe it has to be somewhat close (at tops, 30 yards). Nonetheless, the new "one hour" rule instead of it being permanent is still a dumb way to power down the potara earrings. At this point, the Fusion Dance is about the same to the potara earrings, with 30 minutes being the only difference upon fusing. SMH... VeyaAs for Cell staying evil despite achieving his perfect form, I see it as Cell staying true to his programming he has received from Dr. Gero. Due to some "components" having more dominance compared to others (Frieza, King Cold, and Vegeta respectively), Cell is swayed by their lust for power and will do anything to achieve it, even if it means slaughtering everybody to do so. Personally, I believe that American Vigor's Honor Trip fanfic does a wonderful job at showcasing this dilemma. Source: [scroll to the 2:45 mark for the explanation]
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Nov 29, 2016 10:05:31 GMT
Okay so another question!
I don't remember the technique name(Final Buster?) but why does Future Trunks perform hand formations like a Ninja Technique? Is there some logic behind that?
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