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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 1, 2017 22:01:52 GMT
YES, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE MORE GOHAN FIGHTING CELL IN GLORIOUS COMBA-- *sees Piccolo and Frieza about to square off instead* ...Realistically I don't expect much from that particular fight either--UNLESS Salagir's intention here is to show that Majinization bumps you up more than just a single tier--because otherwise Piccolo should still clean Frieza's clock, Majin spell or no Majin spell, given that Frieza isn't even able to defeat a raw SS1 and Piccolo has long since transcended that level of power. So in essence my reaction can be summed up as: Well I think it's very well possible that the Majin spell can bump people up 2+ tiers seeing as Spopovich seemed to be around Saiyan Saga Raditz level. The reason I'd say he was around Saiyan Saga Raditz level is because Videl is probably around King Piccolo's level of power during DB just with less knowledge of Ki manipulation and Ki control.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 1, 2017 22:22:31 GMT
YES, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE MORE GOHAN FIGHTING CELL IN GLORIOUS COMBA-- *sees Piccolo and Frieza about to square off instead* ...Realistically I don't expect much from that particular fight either--UNLESS Salagir's intention here is to show that Majinization bumps you up more than just a single tier--because otherwise Piccolo should still clean Frieza's clock, Majin spell or no Majin spell, given that Frieza isn't even able to defeat a raw SS1 and Piccolo has long since transcended that level of power. So in essence my reaction can be summed up as: Well I think it's very well possible that the Majin spell can bump people up 2+ tiers seeing as Spopovich seemed to be around Saiyan Saga Raditz level. The reason I'd say he was around Saiyan Saga Raditz level is because Videl is probably around King Piccolo's level of power during DB just with less knowledge of Ki manipulation and Ki control. ...I highly doubt Videl is equal to King Piccolo in any way. Spopovich's only feats are that he can fly and has ki blasts, with nothing really placing him definitively at Roshi-level, let alone Raditz-level. His Majin powers of recovering from mortal injuries might have made him an interesting opponent for Kid Goku at some point in pre-Piccolo DB, but that's it. I'd say Videl sits squarely beneath both Roshi and Yajirobe on the human scale and even with how DB hands out powerups like candy on Halloween I just don't see the logic in any capacity for placing her any higher.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 1, 2017 22:59:33 GMT
Well I think it's very well possible that the Majin spell can bump people up 2+ tiers seeing as Spopovich seemed to be around Saiyan Saga Raditz level. The reason I'd say he was around Saiyan Saga Raditz level is because Videl is probably around King Piccolo's level of power during DB just with less knowledge of Ki manipulation and Ki control. ...I highly doubt Videl is equal to King Piccolo in any way. Spopovich's only feats are that he can fly and has ki blasts, with nothing really placing him definitively at Roshi-level, let alone Raditz-level. His Majin powers of recovering from mortal injuries might have made him an interesting opponent for Kid Goku at some point in pre-Piccolo DB, but that's it. I'd say Videl sits squarely beneath both Roshi and Yajirobe on the human scale and even with how DB hands out powerups like candy on Halloween I just don't see the logic in any capacity for placing her any higher. Maybe her skills in using Ki aren't there, but I'd say her PL is around there. Of course having a high power level doesn't really amount to much if you can't manipulate your Ki properly to take advantage of it. I'd say that Mr. Satan probably has a PL on par with Master Roshi's, but just doesn't know how to use his Ki so that is why it only really manifests itself in remarkable feats of strength like being able to punch a whole thru a bus without fucking up your hand. Seeing as Videl is obviously far stronger than her father, I'd definitely say her PL is around King Piccolo's from DB, but she just doesn't have the proper Ki manipulation training to be able to use it properly.
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Post by lordofbeefdip on Nov 1, 2017 23:58:54 GMT
...I highly doubt Videl is equal to King Piccolo in any way. Spopovich's only feats are that he can fly and has ki blasts, with nothing really placing him definitively at Roshi-level, let alone Raditz-level. His Majin powers of recovering from mortal injuries might have made him an interesting opponent for Kid Goku at some point in pre-Piccolo DB, but that's it. I'd say Videl sits squarely beneath both Roshi and Yajirobe on the human scale and even with how DB hands out powerups like candy on Halloween I just don't see the logic in any capacity for placing her any higher. Maybe her skills in using Ki aren't there, but I'd say her PL is around there. Of course having a high power level doesn't really amount to much if you can't manipulate your Ki properly to take advantage of it. I'd say that Mr. Satan probably has a PL on par with Master Roshi's, but just doesn't know how to use his Ki so that is why it only really manifests itself in remarkable feats of strength like being able to punch a whole thru a bus without fucking up your hand. Seeing as Videl is obviously far stronger than her father, I'd definitely say her PL is around King Piccolo's from DB, but she just doesn't have the proper Ki manipulation training to be able to use it properly. There is really nothing putting Mr. Satan above beginning of DB Goku, much less anything later. Beginning of DB Goku survived a near point blank gun shot to the head with only minor annoyance. Mr. Satan nearly died from a body shot. Beginning of DB Goku easily man handled a giant bear monster. Mr. Satan took several blows to beat up average humans. In both strength and durability Mr. Satan seems to fall far short of Goku at the start of Dragonball. Nothing exists to really rate him any higher. At most he seems to be just an above average human, but nothing approaching the realm of superhuman. Roshi at the 21st Budokai could nuke the moon, and was stronger than any of the other superhuman combatants. And he was fodder to someone like King Piccolo. Videl also has shown nothing putting her above beginning of DB Goku. She couldn't speed blitz normal humans, and aside from flying didn't show any superhuman abilities. Master Roshi could catch machine gun bullets, whereas Videl had to actively avoid being shot.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 2, 2017 0:11:03 GMT
Not sure if the last panel is some Namekian other than Piccolo, or I'm just over-thinking and it's just Piccolo's dramatic entrance.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 2, 2017 0:14:52 GMT
...I highly doubt Videl is equal to King Piccolo in any way. Spopovich's only feats are that he can fly and has ki blasts, with nothing really placing him definitively at Roshi-level, let alone Raditz-level. His Majin powers of recovering from mortal injuries might have made him an interesting opponent for Kid Goku at some point in pre-Piccolo DB, but that's it. I'd say Videl sits squarely beneath both Roshi and Yajirobe on the human scale and even with how DB hands out powerups like candy on Halloween I just don't see the logic in any capacity for placing her any higher. Maybe her skills in using Ki aren't there, but I'd say her PL is around there. Of course having a high power level doesn't really amount to much if you can't manipulate your Ki properly to take advantage of it. I'd say that Mr. Satan probably has a PL on par with Master Roshi's, but just doesn't know how to use his Ki so that is why it only really manifests itself in remarkable feats of strength like being able to punch a whole thru a bus without fucking up your hand. Seeing as Videl is obviously far stronger than her father, I'd definitely say her PL is around King Piccolo's from DB, but she just doesn't have the proper Ki manipulation training to be able to use it properly. lordofbeefdip just did a good post on why Satan doesn't even compare to early Goku, let along King Piccolo. Frankly I just don't see the comparisons. Maybe Videl has even higher potential than Gohan+Goku+Frieza combined, but until something actually comes along and gives us proof of that...she just isn't that powerful or potentially powerful. Her feats aren't impressive even by early DB standards and she's shown no growth at all that would place her at even early Kid Goku levels (who also didn't know much about ki), let alone Roshi or King Piccolo. She's stronger than the average human, but really that's it. Where are you getting that her PL must be equal to King Piccolo? I know DB has awful power creep and Bargain Bin Sales, but I've seen nothing of the sort that shows Videl is anywhere close to this. Early Yajirobe is a better comparison as a human who doesn't really use ki manipulation. He's lazy, untrained, yet naturally strong and from everything shown he'd beat the tar out of Videl despite Gohan's training.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 2, 2017 0:18:44 GMT
Maybe her skills in using Ki aren't there, but I'd say her PL is around there. Of course having a high power level doesn't really amount to much if you can't manipulate your Ki properly to take advantage of it. I'd say that Mr. Satan probably has a PL on par with Master Roshi's, but just doesn't know how to use his Ki so that is why it only really manifests itself in remarkable feats of strength like being able to punch a whole thru a bus without fucking up your hand. Seeing as Videl is obviously far stronger than her father, I'd definitely say her PL is around King Piccolo's from DB, but she just doesn't have the proper Ki manipulation training to be able to use it properly. There is really nothing putting Mr. Satan above beginning of DB Goku, much less anything later. Beginning of DB Goku survived a near point blank gun shot to the head with only minor annoyance. Mr. Satan nearly died from a body shot. Beginning of DB Goku easily man handled a giant bear monster. Mr. Satan took several blows to beat up average humans. In both strength and durability Mr. Satan seems to fall far short of Goku at the start of Dragonball. Nothing exists to really rate him any higher. At most he seems to be just an above average human, but nothing approaching the realm of superhuman. Roshi at the 21st Budokai could nuke the moon, and was stronger than any of the other superhuman combatants. And he was fodder to someone like King Piccolo. Videl also has shown nothing putting her above beginning of DB Goku. She couldn't speed blitz normal humans, and aside from flying didn't show any superhuman abilities. Master Roshi could catch machine gun bullets, whereas Videl had to actively avoid being shot. Again we're talking about PLs, not whether or not they can manipulate their Ki to the point where they can use their PL to maximum efficiency. Goku could take a point blank gunshot to the head like that because he could manipulate his Ki to a limited extent even if he didn't necessarily even know he was doing it at that point. Mr. Satan probably has around Roshi's PL, but can't do anything extraordinary because he doesn't know how to manipulate his Ki. Someone could be at Majin Buu PLs, but if they didn't have the ability to manipulate Ki then they'd never surpass the natural limits of their body. Videl definitely has a PL at least around Roshi's PL, but I say around King Piccolo's because she can maintain flight for at least a few hours straight puts her there. Flight actually drains a lot of Ki if you recall events from late DB and early DBZ. Remember there are instances when characters were low on Ki that flight was extremely difficult or downright impossible.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 2, 2017 0:28:29 GMT
Again we're talking about PLs, not whether or not they can manipulate their Ki to the point where they can use their PL to maximum efficiency. Goku could take a point blank gunshot to the head like that because he could manipulate his Ki to a limited extent even if he didn't necessarily even know he was doing it at that point. And yet Goku not knowing much about ki is still able to out-perform a Videl who actively uses her limited ki manipulation. If in their resting state someone is as powerful as Majin Buu without knowing a thing about ki manipulation, then the "natural limits of their body" are going to be equivalent to Majin Buu. If Satan's PL is equal to not-buff Roshi, bullets would also bounce off of his head as they did to the weaker Kid Goku. They do not bounce off of him. They nearly kill him. Ergo Satan cannot have a PL as high as Roshi. Puar and Chiaotzu fly around all the time. I don't see how Videl also flying puts her at King Piccolo's levels.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 2, 2017 0:51:16 GMT
Axalon, you are actually wrong about a few things. Videl while she does actively use Ki manipulation, she only does it to fly and wasn't actually properly trained in how to manipulate Ki. She was given a shortcut course by Gohan that only really let's her know how to use it to fly and maybe use basic Ki blasts (I forget if she can use basic Ki blasts or not). Also Ki manipulation is what allows people like Master Roshi to be immune to bullets. Goku in early DB had already received at the very least bare minimum Ki manipulation training from Grandpa Gohan before Oozaru Goku killed Grandpa Gohan. Not enough to know how to use Ki blasts, but enough to be immune to bullets and to be able to attempt to mimic Ki blasts/beam attacks and succeed to a very limited extent. It might even be possible that he was born with the means to instinctively manipulate Ki since he survived a fall down a cliff as a baby, but that might just be part of the natural durability of the Saiyan race. Puar flies using an innate ability she poses that allows herself to do so. Chiaotzu's Saiyan Saga PL of 610 is almost 2.5x that of King Piccolo's 260. That is why he has no trouble with flying pretty much indefinitely as long as he hasn't overexerted his Ki reserves.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 2, 2017 1:49:30 GMT
Axalon , you are actually wrong about a few things. Videl while she does actively use Ki manipulation, she only does it to fly and wasn't actually properly trained in how to manipulate Ki. She was given a shortcut course by Gohan that only really let's her know how to use it to fly and maybe use basic Ki blasts (I forget if she can use basic Ki blasts or not). Videl kicked Spopovich so hard his head was facing the wrong direction. Given that Spopovich has better ki manipulation than Videl does and is stronger than her (thanks to Majinization) I don't see how Videl doesn't have more ki manipulation than you're claiming if "all she can do is fly" and that's it given her performance against a superior foe who admittedly was LETTING it happen in the first place. Not to mention that he WAS getting injured in that whole fight, injuries were just meaningless thanks to the Majin spell. To use a comparison, if Spopo = Raditz and Videl = King Piccolo then we'd have a scene where Piccolo Jr. is able to snap Raditz's neck instead of the roflstomp that was Raditz vs Goku/Piccolo combined. As it was Spopo was not only bleeding, but literally had his neck snapped. Such injuries from a weaker foe against someone 5x stronger are practically unheard of in DB. Regardless, her best feats (flying and the neck snapping) still pale in comparison to rudimentary Kid Goku feats. You're claiming that Videl is naturally just stronger than Kid Goku was and the evidence just doesn't match up. At all. It's speculative at best. If her raw, untrained power meant she was on par with King Piccolo she'd have more going for her, but she doesn't display anything close to it on her best day. I'm not even talking about ki techniques here. Physically it just doesn't match up. Spopovich had to use an extremely weak ki blast just to ensure he didn't accidentally kill Videl and even then it shook her up quite a bit. But what does this have to do with Videl? My point is that where are you even getting that she's anywhere close to King Piccolo? Or Roshi? Or Yajirobe? You can't claim she's stronger than Roshi and then fall back and go "But oh she can't manipulate ki that well but her PL is still stronger than Roshi and on par with King Piccolo." Where is this coming from? Because feat-wise she's completely unimpressive even by early DB standards. The only "cool" thing she has by those ancient standards is flight, which means nothing if she's unable to even harm Kid Goku which King Piccolo could most certainly do. I figured Puar's ability would come in, which is why I also threw Chiaotzu in there. Specifically, I was referring to DB Chiaotzu, who also flew, just as I keep referring to DB Yajirobe and comparing him to Videl. DBZ really has no place in this discussion thanks to power creep aside from anything concerning Videl herself since for some reason we're trying to compare her to King Piccolo, who was a DB opponent. I feel like Roshi and King Piccolo are being vastly underestimated here compared to Videl's overly generous estimations. Early and untrained Yajirobe is again the best comparison to Videl's situation and she doesn't measure up to the guy, let alone Roshi or Piccolo. Do you think Videl could honestly take on Yajirobe? Or Tambourine who killed Krillin? How about Mercenary Tao? Or Desert Bandit Yamcha who knocked (starving) Kid Goku through several pillars of solid rock? If the answer is no, then how do you figure her PL is at King Piccolo levels?
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Post by iron leaf on Nov 2, 2017 1:56:28 GMT
Oh, how sweet. Somehow I never realized that females in manga never have freckles. Japanese culture, I guess. The female Zamasu has freckles as well. Nice work on the details, Asura.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 2:03:48 GMT
Oh, how sweet. Somehow I never realized that females in manga never have freckles. Japanese culture, I guess. The female Zamasu has freckles as well. Nice work on the details, Asura. Pretty sure Asura drew the Heloïte red head chick with freckles too. On closer inspection it seems her arms have freckles too... Space aids perhaps?
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Post by iron leaf on Nov 2, 2017 2:22:08 GMT
Pretty sure Asura drew the Heloïte red head chick with freckles too. On closer inspection it seems her arms have freckles too... Space aids perhaps?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 2, 2017 2:23:50 GMT
Pretty sure Asura drew the Heloïte red head chick with freckles too. On closer inspection it seems her arms have freckles too... Space aids perhaps?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 2:30:49 GMT
Pretty sure Asura drew the Heloïte red head chick with freckles too. On closer inspection it seems her arms have freckles too... Space aids perhaps? TFW you get COXXED Yea, her. I don't know what made me think Asura drew that special. My brain is on the fritz bad today....
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Post by iron leaf on Nov 2, 2017 2:37:19 GMT
Funny thing how Feyn is a badass in the special and a cutie in the fanfic.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 2:44:06 GMT
Funny thing how Feyn is a badass in the special and a cutie in the fanfic. ::) Are you implying baddass' can't be cuties or that cuties can't be badass'?
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Post by iron leaf on Nov 2, 2017 2:55:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 3:00:29 GMT
Are you implying baddass' can't be cuties or that cuties can't be badass'? I like my cuties ready to be rescued by the tough guy and my badass ready to show me who the real boss is The roll gods have spoken!
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 2, 2017 3:10:55 GMT
YES, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE MORE GOHAN FIGHTING CELL IN GLORIOUS COMBA-- *sees Piccolo and Frieza about to square off instead* ...Realistically I don't expect much from that particular fight either--UNLESS Salagir's intention here is to show that Majinization bumps you up more than just a single tier--because otherwise Piccolo should still clean Frieza's clock, Majin spell or no Majin spell, given that Frieza isn't even able to defeat a raw SS1 and Piccolo has long since transcended that level of power. So in essence my reaction can be summed up as: I don't really expect Freeza or Cooler doing much, but getting one shot by Piccolo either. I get it since he finally lets Piccolo get the chance for sweet revenge over the brothers for how badly they beat him down on Namek and Earth. I'm possibly getting my hopes for nothing, but I'm hoping to see a good showing with Piccolo against Ginyu-Cold. He is probably still nowhere near Perfect Cell's level, but I'm hoping he won't give Ginyu-Cold the chance to transform and fight him in his true form. That could be a entertaining battle to me. Of course I wouldn't oppose Piccolo revealing he knows Kaioken suddenly and using it to close the gap between him and Ginyu-Cold augmented form. Piccolo needs more love in the comic. I'm curious at how strong he actually is in the comic. Is he at least somewhat close to Perfect Cell's power after 2 decades or did he stop training too and had his power degrade as a result? I wish he had competed in the tournament in the first place though for sport if nothing else.
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