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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 10:39:29 GMT
Cmon Conqueror Geng, those were some pretty damn impressive statues mate and that kid was no push over. Not to mention you compared her to someone that hasn't even been a leader yet and used potential scenarios to make him seem competent/worthy.... Either way she is obviously the Mary'est(ist?)of Sues and one HELL of a fetish plate. Sir Sal should be ashamed of himself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 17:34:24 GMT
Conqueror GengI also wasn't a fan of Hanasia being an elite. I can accept that Bardock was close to the king's power after so many missions but I think it's a stretch that both Goku's parents were elites by the time he was born. The fact that she didn't achieve much makes me wonder what was the point of Salagir making her that strong in the first place. She could've been a low class Saiyan and replaced with Gerkin as the new ruler after Bardock and nothing really changes. I think the only reason someone else took over after Bardock was so they could sacrificed against Broly and Bardock could survive .
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 27, 2018 18:18:32 GMT
The Hanasia as a character makes more sense as Vegeta’s mother than Goku’s. Think about it who is likely to have the strongest mate a low level nobody or the king of all Saiyans? Vegeta Sr. having a wife who was born an elite that eventually surpasses him due to being on the frontlines all the time is easier to swallow and would explain why we never saw much of her in DBZ flashbacks. It would be hilarious to her rubbing her husband’s nose in getting beaten by a low class warrior, but then take the crown for herself and shitting on her son to motivate him into training harder so he doesn’t end up like his father. It would make her seem less Mary Sue to people and probably endear them to her more, since Vegeta having a super power couple parents with mom being even more bad ass makes sense story wise but also gives a bit more to Vegeta’s history. Whereas Goku’s mom could been orfinally born aeverage class Saiyan who neither too weak (like her sons) or too strong (like the elites) and still had Hanasia’s general personality without losing anything in the story. Her not buying into caste system and have her train Kakarot and Raditz could have been explored more if she isn’t queen in these specials. I could easily see her with Kakarot greeting Raditz back and taking shots at both her sons to give us an idea on how the family dynamic goes.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 27, 2018 23:38:12 GMT
Conqueror Geng I also wasn't a fan of Hanasia being an elite. I can accept that Bardock was close to the king's power after so many missions but I think it's a stretch that both Goku's parents were elites by the time he was born. The fact that she didn't achieve much makes me wonder what was the point of Salagir making her that strong in the first place. She could've been a low class Saiyan and replaced with Gerkin as the new ruler after Bardock and nothing really changes. I think the only reason someone else took over after Bardock was so they could sacrificed against Broly and Bardock could survive . I think we have a winner!
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 27, 2018 23:56:12 GMT
Conqueror GengOh, I don't think Hanasia's a Mary Sue. I just said once that people could make a better argument for Hanasia being a Mary Sue than they could with Bra. I am bugged by her strength, though: -- It subverts the theme of Goku and Vegeta's first fight, as well as their relationship afterward. Goku vs. Vegeta was supposed to show hard work trumping natural ability; for the next ten years Vegeta is certain that, as long as he applies himself, he should be able to surpass Kakarot simply because of his royal blood/better genes. In DBM Vegeta is ironically proven right: Goku came from the stronger parents, so it's only natural he won. I'm surprised Salagir, who's put so much thought into Dragon Ball and come up with such great insights, missed this. -- It subverts her own opening scene of "Numbers mean nothing"--easy for her to say, she's the strongest! -- It seems unrealistic in-setting. Like Skar said, the odds of both of Goku's parents being crazy-strong elites are small. -- It didn't serve that much of a purpose in the long run. Again, like Skar said, apparently the main reason for Hanasia's strength was to have her fight Dodoria and to become queen so Broly would kill her instead of Bardock, but Gerkin could've easily done both things. We never even got to see how being royalty affected Raditz and Kakarot, so it's not like Hanasia being queen had all that much impact on the story. I think Son Pan's entirely right to say Hanasia makes more sense as Vegeta Sr.'s wife/Vegeta Jr.'s mom than as Goku's. On the whole I like Hanasia's appearance and how she's still a Saiyan in personality, not a cream puff like Gine, so I prefer her as Goku's mom. Still, I would've liked her to be a bit more goofy and to keep that "numbers mean nothing" mindset, since those are both traits of Goku's and he clearly didn't get them from Bardock. (Bardock is very different from Goku in personality.) Her character would've been better served, I think, if she was a low-class but motivated Saiyan, not the most elite of the elite.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 28, 2018 0:00:00 GMT
AshanarkBut there are more layers of irony of this: -Goku, low class warrior, became the most accomplished Saiyan of all time -Hanasia, high class warrior, became royalty, accomplished nothing At the end, even if it's not in the way we expected, she was proven right that numbers mean nothing. Her power and royalty did not make her an accomplished individual.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 28, 2018 0:06:22 GMT
Ashanark But there are more layers of irony of this: -Goku, low class warrior, became the most accomplished Saiyan of all time -Hanasia, high class warrior, became royalty, accomplished nothing At the end, even if it's not in the way we expected, she was proven right that numbers mean nothing. Her power and royalty did not make her an accomplished individual. How so? Broly just had a waaaaaayyyyy bigger number than she did, especially since this is DBM Broly whose number naturally just gets bigger over time. His number is MAXIMUM.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 28, 2018 0:46:59 GMT
Ashanark But there are more layers of irony of this: -Goku, low class warrior, became the most accomplished Saiyan of all time -Hanasia, high class warrior, became royalty, accomplished nothing At the end, even if it's not in the way we expected, she was proven right that numbers mean nothing. Her power and royalty did not make her an accomplished individual. How so? Broly just had a waaaaaayyyyy bigger number than she did, especially since this is DBM Broly whose number naturally just gets bigger over time. His number is MAXIMUM. Even if she was killed by an individual with a MAXIMUMER number, she could still have died as an individual with multiple accomplishments. Alas, she did not. MAXIMUM Broly (in other universes) also got destroyed and untransformed by a Genkidama by Goku. I'm speaking from a political/PR/plot point of view. Vegeta Sr was far weaker but had important accomplishments. Same for Bardock. Hanasia was probably as powerful as both of them combined, but did not even do even a fraction of the accomplishments of either one individually.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 1:13:59 GMT
DBS Broly: I hear your power is maximum. DBM U20 Broly: Why yes it is. In fact, my power grew so much over the years that I eventually killed all life in my universe! DBS Broly: You can do it in one blast? DBM Broly: Nah that's too much even for me. I might be able to after a few more decades...or maybe I die before that. I guess we'll have to wait and find out. DBS Broly: Hmm I was strong enough after fighting for a few hours. Not so maximum anymore...I guess you're merely a product of fan wankery. I, on the other hand, have official wankery on my side! DBM Broly: Nani?!
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Post by Axalon on Sept 28, 2018 1:31:38 GMT
How so? Broly just had a waaaaaayyyyy bigger number than she did, especially since this is DBM Broly whose number naturally just gets bigger over time. His number is MAXIMUM. Even if she was killed by an individual with a MAXIMUMER number, she could still have died as an individual with multiple accomplishments. Alas, she did not. MAXIMUM Broly (in other universes) also got destroyed and untransformed by a Genkidama by Goku. I'm speaking from a political/PR/plot point of view. Vegeta Sr was far weaker but had important accomplishments. Same for Bardock. Hanasia was probably as powerful as both of them combined, but did not even do even a fraction of the accomplishments of either one individually. To be fair, what could Hanasia have done? Even just potentially? Vegeta Sr. defeated the Tuffles, enslavers of his race! Bardock then got some future sight and made the Saiyans defeat Frieza, the next enslaver of his race! Then he started conquering the galaxy! Hanasia...kept conquering the galaxy! Then she built some statues! Vegeta Sr's and Bardock's accomplishments are all very much of a military nature and Hanasia simply continued the trend--except she doesn't have any big "wow" moments to capitalize on like Vegeta and Bardock did. She could've killed Cooler/Cold but only Broly was capable of defeating Cooler and Cold anyway. I feel like she's simply in a situation similar to later rulers of the Roman Empire. All the cool stuff was done by Julius and Augustus Caesar, now she just manages it, except the Saiyans have far less culture beyond fighting so we can't even go into a philosophical direction like some Romans did either.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 28, 2018 2:10:24 GMT
See I don’t think Salagir destroyed the Goku and Vegeta dynamic at all with Hanasia, because he very intentionally kept Goku’s counterparts varying in power throughout different universes depending on circumstances while Vegeta’s counterparts are usually shown to be more consistently stronger despite Goku supposedly coming from better stock, which in itself is called into question since Bardock started off a low class born Saiyan as well who just became as strong as an elite class born Saiyan (mostly thanks to zenkai boost). Vegeta Sr. was born the strongest and likely just got surpassed by others due to his administration handle of things took him off the frontlines.
Goku still proves he can either be a unremarkable Saiyan despite his parents being awesome in U3, he strong, but not able to surpass Vegeta in U13, or be far greater than his parents and of Vegeta with enough hardwork. If anything Hanasia being so strong and hot just feels like more shilling Bardock out even more since of course he gets the hot and strongest Saiyan ever who is named after a legendary figure in their culture. Not that I have any real issues with it.
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Post by QuentinShuai on Sept 28, 2018 15:04:19 GMT
The greatest thing Hanasia has ever achieved in all universes is: Being a terrible nightmare in kid Kakarotto’s mind, and drove him mad.
[slash]Hanasia Killed Kirilin, death to her.[/slash]
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Post by bk81 on Sept 28, 2018 15:50:22 GMT
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Post by bk81 on Sept 28, 2018 15:53:10 GMT
I see that this OC of DBM has some impact on the discussions.. so let's try to keep them collected here. What do you wanna say about her? her pres, her cons? Issues? Did Salagir do a good job at creating her, much before Gine was even a concept? (is it possible to move some post over here?)
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Post by Axalon on Sept 28, 2018 17:53:17 GMT
I'd say she's better than Gine by default because I can't stand Gine (or for that matter, literally anything DB Minus did). Hanasia is much more of a barbarian than Gine, which fits with the older Saiyan archetype as opposed to the new DBS-era milksop Saiyans with noodle arms and nicer personalities. But comparing anything to DB Minus isn't fair since it's a freebie. Hanasia just...exists. At least for me. She doesn't really stand out despite being Goku's mother and later queen of the Saiyans. It isn't just a political thing like Conqueror Geng and I were talking about above either. She just isn't all that memorable. Physically she doesn't stand out from other characters design-wise, her accomplishments are pretty nil even with Vegeta Sr AND Bardock both advising her, and honestly the only reason she seems to be as important as she was is because she was also Goku's mother/Bardock's husband AND was also one of the strongest members of her race. Honestly her most standout moment was getting chopped in half by Broly, probably to avoid having Bardock suffer the same fate. She's unremarkable.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 28, 2018 18:06:04 GMT
I'd say she's better than Gine by default because I can't stand Gine (or for that matter, literally anything DB Minus did). Hanasia is much more of a barbarian than Gine, which fits with the older Saiyan archetype as opposed to the new DBS-era milksop Saiyans with noodle arms and nicer personalities. But comparing anything to DB Minus isn't fair since it's a freebie. Hanasia just...exists. At least for me. She doesn't really stand out despite being Goku's mother and later queen of the Saiyans. It isn't just a political thing like Conqueror Geng and I were talking about above either. She just isn't all that memorable. Physically she doesn't stand out from other characters design-wise, her accomplishments are pretty nil even with Vegeta Sr AND Bardock both advising her, and honestly the only reason she seems to be as important as she was is because she was also Goku's mother/Bardock's husband AND was also one of the strongest members of her race. Honestly her most standout moment was getting chopped in half by Broly, probably to avoid having Bardock suffer the same fate. She's unremarkable. And destroying Freeza ship's shield. Wtf was even that? So the collective Ozarus just blasted Freeza into oblivion, couldn't they have blasted the shield too? The shield couldn't possibly have been stronger than Freeza, could it?
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Post by Axalon on Sept 28, 2018 18:12:27 GMT
I'd say she's better than Gine by default because I can't stand Gine (or for that matter, literally anything DB Minus did). Hanasia is much more of a barbarian than Gine, which fits with the older Saiyan archetype as opposed to the new DBS-era milksop Saiyans with noodle arms and nicer personalities. But comparing anything to DB Minus isn't fair since it's a freebie. Hanasia just...exists. At least for me. She doesn't really stand out despite being Goku's mother and later queen of the Saiyans. It isn't just a political thing like Conqueror Geng and I were talking about above either. She just isn't all that memorable. Physically she doesn't stand out from other characters design-wise, her accomplishments are pretty nil even with Vegeta Sr AND Bardock both advising her, and honestly the only reason she seems to be as important as she was is because she was also Goku's mother/Bardock's husband AND was also one of the strongest members of her race. Honestly her most standout moment was getting chopped in half by Broly, probably to avoid having Bardock suffer the same fate. She's unremarkable. And destroying Freeza ship's shield. Wtf was even that? So the collective Ozarus just blasted Freeza into oblivion, couldn't they have blasted the shield too? The shield couldn't possibly have been stronger than Freeza, could it? Logically there's no way it should've been stronger than Frieza, but clearly destroying the shield was necessary to make Hanasia's contribution important and not just downright silly so I'm just going to be equally silly and say yes, the shield was actually stronger. It's the only way to justify Hanasia's actions. But no seriously, the Oozarus could've just blown the ship up without Hanasia having to do anything.
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Post by Symbiotic on Sept 28, 2018 18:36:55 GMT
And destroying Freeza ship's shield. Wtf was even that? So the collective Ozarus just blasted Freeza into oblivion, couldn't they have blasted the shield too? The shield couldn't possibly have been stronger than Freeza, could it? Logically there's no way it should've been stronger than Frieza, but clearly destroying the shield was necessary to make Hanasia's contribution important and not just downright silly so I'm just going to be equally silly and say yes, the shield was actually stronger. It's the only way to justify Hanasia's actions. But no seriously, the Oozarus could've just blown the ship up without Hanasia having to do anything. Maybe the combined Ooozaru blast was at 560k and the shield was rated for 30k so if it was on Frieza would've survived? About Hanasia, I like that she kinda looks like Raditz, has a normal Saiyan personality and seemed to do her own thing separate from Bardock. However, making her literally the strongest Saiyan -hell putting her anywhere over 7k- was a huge let down. It diminishes Goku's appeal like DB Minus did, it makes Bardock less special for reaching his level (along with the rest of his squad) and possibly does the same to Nappa since he's supposed to be a general above the normal elites but who cares about him.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 28, 2018 18:42:13 GMT
Logically there's no way it should've been stronger than Frieza, but clearly destroying the shield was necessary to make Hanasia's contribution important and not just downright silly so I'm just going to be equally silly and say yes, the shield was actually stronger. It's the only way to justify Hanasia's actions. But no seriously, the Oozarus could've just blown the ship up without Hanasia having to do anything. Maybe the combined Ooozaru blast was at 560k and the shield was rated for 30k so if it was on Frieza would've survived? About Hanasia, I like that she kinda looks like Raditz, has a normal Saiyan personality and seemed to do her own thing separate from Bardock. However, making her literally the strongest Saiyan -hell putting her anywhere over 7k- was a huge let down. It diminishes Goku's appeal like DB Minus did, it makes Bardock less special for reaching his level (along with the rest of his squad) and possibly does the same to Nappa since he's supposed to be a general above the normal elites but who cares about him. Problem with this is that Frieza had already transformed once, meaning he was at 1 million. So that's a LOT of firepower the Oozarus are putting out to exterminate 2nd Form Frieza immediately. Not to mention that I don't think the Saiyans even knew he could transform? So they only expected his 530,000 BP and not 1 million? I don't think the shield would've made that much difference.
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Post by Symbiotic on Sept 28, 2018 18:45:25 GMT
Axalon Looks like he's between forms. Which is still above 530k... Well maybe the shield would've held just long enough for Frieza to finish transforming and tank the blast.
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