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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2021 20:45:09 GMT
I really don't think you understand, to a degree, how weak in General the Saiyans were in the grand scheme of things. As individuals, most of them were irrelevant players. Raditz was considered an example of a low tier (Who were the majority of Saiyans) and Vegeta easily surpassed him as an 8 year old. Killing multiple Saibaman and being already ahead of Nappa who was considered a mid-class warrior. Compared to Cui, one of Frieza's Elites, they really were seen as nothing. It's only the threat of the collective race rising up against him that caused Frieza to take action, not the exploits of a special individual. So yes, an 8 year old Vegeta is meant to be stronger than the bulk of the Saiyans, it is what made him Vegeta (The Planet's)'s greatest prodigy not named Broly. This the first time I hear that the saiyans are as worthless as you describe. If they were this weak then they shouldn't be a problem to Freeza no matter how many they are. Not really, if anything losing out to Hanasia is the issue here. Vegeta's power and relation to other Saiyans is more or less accurate, and OC coming in to beat and put him "in his place" already shoots Vegeta's story before it can even begin. Why would he even believe in the Class system at all if Hanasia already shattered it? Maybe this was the moment were she shattered his believe just like her son did in another universe? Which doesn't make sense given how strong Bardock and Hanasia were when they had Kakarot. Which is why they were consider a "disappointment". He should've been stronger, as he is actually more privlaged than Vegeta with his parent's genes. And Hanasia makes what any Goku achieves (Even U-16/18) feel more like thanks to her for his "prodigy" skill than his own efforts. It just doesn't need to be so extreme to make her the supreme Saiyan. You can have a Saiyan want to break the Class System and prove people wrong without making her the strongest around before Goku says a word. It doesn't endear me to Hanasia, just makes it feel like a Creator Pet and takes me out of the story. ...You know? I think this a discussion that is worth to discuss with Salagir. Write for me a couple of Q's or statements about this subject in the Twitch thread & let's see what Salagir opinion on the matter. I really need to learn how to isolate quote block replies lol this is just a mess. I mean the Saiyans were dismissed largely as a weak race by others in Frieza's army, even the worthless grunts. This isn't a new attitude I pulled out of thin air, the fact that 10,000 was considered this unreachable high tier reserved for the King of the people and yet wouldn't even make someone like Cui flinch should show this. Frieza's concern was the collective race (Millions of Saiyans) rising against him, and that one day a possible Super Saiyan of legend would rise to overthrow him. Frieza's casual destruction of Vegeta (Done in his weakest form, with a single finger) was a means to ensure that would never happen. Ah great, so steal Goku's entire purpose and make it so Vegeta has his life altering humbling before he even hits puberty. That doesn't make me like her even more lol Being called a disappointment is not good enough lol. Goku, in canon born to a weak Bardock and Gine a non-fighter, showed more "natural talent" than Kakarot did when it should be far the other way around. And again, this doesn't count the other universes where Goku isn't a joke and his gains are now in a way tainted in my eyes. Hum, I might for the next one, but who knows. I am not sure how to frame the question, I guess "Why is the son of Bardock and Hanasia, the strongest Saiyans of their era by a long shot, so weak compared to other Gokus?"
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 21:01:04 GMT
I really need to learn how to isolate quote block replies lol this is just a mess. Like this: Being called a disappointment is not good enough lol. Goku, in canon born to a weak Bardock and Gine a non-fighter, showed more "natural talent" than Kakarot did when it should be far the other way around. And again, this doesn't count the other universes where Goku isn't a joke and his gains are now in a way tainted in my eyes. I could say the same thing about his parents that Goku wasn't special. That he was a good guy just like his parents. Hum, I might for the next one, but who knows. I am not sure how to frame the question, I guess "Why is the son of Bardock and Hanasia, the strongest Saiyans of their era by a long shot, so weak compared to other Gokus?" Think about what piss you off about Hanasia & turn them into questions. XD
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2021 21:05:16 GMT
I really need to learn how to isolate quote block replies lol this is just a mess. Like this: Being called a disappointment is not good enough lol. Goku, in canon born to a weak Bardock and Gine a non-fighter, showed more "natural talent" than Kakarot did when it should be far the other way around. And again, this doesn't count the other universes where Goku isn't a joke and his gains are now in a way tainted in my eyes. I could say the same thing about his parents that Goku wasn't special. That he was a good guy just like his parents. Hum, I might for the next one, but who knows. I am not sure how to frame the question, I guess "Why is the son of Bardock and Hanasia, the strongest Saiyans of their era by a long shot, so weak compared to other Gokus?" Think about what piss you off about Hanasia & turn them into questions. XD Thanks man, will practice this in the future and (hopefully) I get a hang of it. Appreciate the attitude even if we disagree about Hanasia.
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 21:25:46 GMT
Thanks man, will practice this in the future and (hopefully) I get a hang of it. It's not really hard. Just copying & pasting the "quote". Appreciate the attitude even if we disagree about Hanasia. Why of course! This should be the norm actually. And what is the point of this "discussion" forum if all of us agreed on everything. That will be boring actually. I always enjoy having discussions or debate on the shows that I like. The problem is that most of the times I can't put my thoughts into words.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 8, 2021 13:20:01 GMT
Why do we assume that 6 year old Vegeta should be so strong? Like, all we have in the original manga is that Vegeta surpassed his father as a kid. But that would most reasonably be when he was older than just 6.
Salagir's given 6 year old Vegeta a power level of 6,500, which is quite high. But that's entirely his decision. I don't see why there should be an issue with an 8 year old Vegeta being less than 12,000. Which is what Hanasia's power level was 2 years earlier.
Also, power levels of even 1,000 are super high. The Saiyans are a very strong race, where even the lower class is incredibly strong compared to most species. And they can transform into Oozaru at that. The strongest of Freeza's forces are mutants of their own people. And personally, I like to think that Broly is sort of the mutant of his race. And, well... Broly is way stronger than Jeice.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 8, 2021 17:14:09 GMT
Why do we assume that 6 year old Vegeta should be so strong? Like, all we have in the original manga is that Vegeta surpassed his father as a kid. But that would most reasonably be when he was older than just 6. Salagir's given 6 year old Vegeta a power level of 6,500, which is quite high. But that's entirely his decision. I don't see why there should be an issue with an 8 year old Vegeta being less than 12,000. Which is what Hanasia's power level was 2 years earlier. Also, power levels of even 1,000 are super high. The Saiyans are a very strong race, where even the lower class is incredibly strong compared to most species. And they can transform into Oozaru at that. The strongest of Freeza's forces are mutants of their own people. And personally, I like to think that Broly is sort of the mutant of his race. And, well... Broly is way stronger than Jeice. I mean, you said it yourself. He surpasses his father (The strongest Saiyan of his era, according to canon) as a child, we see him crush Saibamen in extended scenes to reinforce his power, and even without that scene he is placed as Nappa's superior as a child with Nappa way beyond the 1,000 some power that seemed impressive to the average Saiyan. But this is an old fight, I've said what I said on my views of her, if you like her more power to you.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 9, 2021 19:40:57 GMT
I wasn’t sure if Hanasia was born an elite or not. I think if working on the concept of the character of Hanasia being the strongest Saiyan of the era and she and to be someone’s mom I think it would have made more sense to have her being born an elite Saiyan and make her Vegeta’s mother. I think the idea of Goku’s mother just being an average Saiyan warrior who doesn’t believe in the caste system works better on its own, because than those elements can be focused more on in the story I felt. If Raditz and Goku’s mom was someone else than when we had a scene where Kid Kakarot visits his brother when he comes back we could have gotten their mother too. We could have gotten a scene where the three of them could interact with each other and that would have been a good time to dive into how Kakarot is being trained by his mother and the progress he has. From there we could discuss how the caste system is impacting the newly fledged Saiyan Empire and the merits to it or if it is all just bullshit, which could lead naturally into Broly, who was born with amazing power and talent despite not being from an elite bloodline. With the mother being Hanasia who is the queen of just doesn’t make sense to have her spend time with her sons or focusing on being Raditz and Kakarot’s mother as much. I think an argument of Hanasia being Vegeta’s mother could be made, especially if she won rulership and became the queen and not the queen consort (queen by marriage to the king) as a desire to be seen as the strongest but to make sure Vegeta doesn’t end up like his father who rested on his laurels and stopped going into the field, which allowed for other Saiyans to surpass him and lose the throne. It makes the Hanasia and Vegeta fight more meaningful to the story I think and would be a nice homage to Roshi entering world martial arts tournament as Jackie Chun to be the someone is always better person for Goku so he didn’t become complacent and stagger his development. At least those are just my thoughts on the matter. Let's not forget that only in U3, Hanasia become a queen. In others, she died as an elite but not the strongest one. & it was her what pushed U13 Kakarotto to fulfil his mission. I get what you are saying, but I think DBM has always intended for Hanasia to be the strongest Saiyan in some shape or form. Hanasia even said she was the strongest Saiyan in one of the first U3 specials. Sure one guy disputed it, but the fact Hanasia said that and only one person can claim to have beaten her really gives weight to her claim being true. It is even more telling that when the Saiyan Empire is stable that Hanasia wins the tournament and the guy who beat her last time they fought didn’t. The idea Hanasia being the strongest and being the queen were likely always tied to her character in some shape or form. Going with that line of thinking I’m surprised this traits were not given to Vegeta’s mom. Vegeta’s mother being an elite warrior wouldn’t be surprising considering much emphasis is put on status and class in Saiyan society from what little we have seen. King Vegeta mating with the strongest female Saiyan also makes sense. A way to explain why we never saw the queen in anime fillers like we did the father didn’t need to be she died a long time ago, but rather she still went on missions and fought on the frontlines unlike her mate. The idea that she became the strongest Saiyan and surpassed the king could be because she went out on dangerous missions and got a zenkai or two same way with Bardock and the others did. I do think if Goku’s mom was made an average Saiyan warrior we could explore that class of Saiyan more. Low class must mean Saiyans who were below what Saiyans consider is average strength for their race. Elite class must mean Saiyans who exceed what is considered average. Logically speaking there has to be an average Saiyan class that aren’t to weak or too strong. If Hanasia was in that class it could be a cool way to see a character in that class get explored. She could still be a bad ass even if she isn’t an elite warrior and still find the caste system dumb. Her choosing Bardock as her mate while he was still a low class warrior could have even shown that. It would mean she mated with someone below her class and probably seen as shameful because she thought Bardock had qualities she admired like ambition and drive to prove others wrong about him being worthless just because he was born a low class. She could be more cautious than Bardock and doesn’t take missions where she nearly ends up dead all the time like he did and doesn’t receive as many zenkai as Bardock did, which his movie all but said was the reason Bardock was getting so strong not through training. Plus we could have gotten two bad ass female Saiyans if Vegeta’s mom was the strongest female Saiyan who would become queen and Hanasia was average class who went out on missions and trained her kids. I think that would be great!
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Post by عمار on Jun 9, 2021 20:02:00 GMT
I get what you are saying, but I think DBM has always intended for Hanasia to be the strongest Saiyan in some shape or form. Hanasia even said she was the strongest Saiyan in one of the first U3 specials. Sure one guy disputed it, but the fact Hanasia said that and only one person can claim to have beaten her really gives weight to her claim being true. It is even more telling that when the Saiyan Empire is stable that Hanasia wins the tournament and the guy who beat her last time they fought didn’t. The idea Hanasia being the strongest and being the queen were likely always tied to her character in some shape or form. Going with that line of thinking I’m surprised this traits were not given to Vegeta’s mom. Vegeta’s mother being an elite warrior wouldn’t be surprising considering much emphasis is put on status and class in Saiyan society from what little we have seen. King Vegeta mating with the strongest female Saiyan also makes sense. A way to explain why we never saw the queen in anime fillers like we did the father didn’t need to be she died a long time ago, but rather she still went on missions and fought on the frontlines unlike her mate. The idea that she became the strongest Saiyan and surpassed the king could be because she went out on dangerous missions and got a zenkai or two same way with Bardock and the others did. I do think if Goku’s mom was made an average Saiyan warrior we could explore that class of Saiyan more. Low class must mean Saiyans who were below what Saiyans consider is average strength for their race. Elite class must mean Saiyans who exceed what is considered average. Logically speaking there has to be an average Saiyan class that aren’t to weak or too strong. If Hanasia was in that class it could be a cool way to see a character in that class get explored. She could still be a bad ass even if she isn’t an elite warrior and still find the caste system dumb. Her choosing Bardock as her mate while he was still a low class warrior could have even shown that. It would mean she mated with someone below her class and probably seen as shameful because she thought Bardock had qualities she admired like ambition and drive to prove others wrong about him being worthless just because he was born a low class. She could be more cautious than Bardock and doesn’t take missions where she nearly ends up dead all the time like he did and doesn’t receive as many zenkai as Bardock did, which his movie all but said was the reason Bardock was getting so strong not through training. Plus we could have gotten two bad ass female Saiyans if Vegeta’s mom was the strongest female Saiyan who would become queen and Hanasia was average class who went out on missions and trained her kids. I think that would be great! I still don't see the problem of Hanasia being strong & not being Vegeta's mother. Paragus wasn't shit & yet he's the father of the legendary saiyan. Goku who was still weaker than Raditz, mate with Chichi who's human had Gohan who is strong. It's not always "genes" that make a saiyan strong.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 9, 2021 20:12:33 GMT
I get what you are saying, but I think DBM has always intended for Hanasia to be the strongest Saiyan in some shape or form. Hanasia even said she was the strongest Saiyan in one of the first U3 specials. Sure one guy disputed it, but the fact Hanasia said that and only one person can claim to have beaten her really gives weight to her claim being true. It is even more telling that when the Saiyan Empire is stable that Hanasia wins the tournament and the guy who beat her last time they fought didn’t. The idea Hanasia being the strongest and being the queen were likely always tied to her character in some shape or form. Going with that line of thinking I’m surprised this traits were not given to Vegeta’s mom. Vegeta’s mother being an elite warrior wouldn’t be surprising considering much emphasis is put on status and class in Saiyan society from what little we have seen. King Vegeta mating with the strongest female Saiyan also makes sense. A way to explain why we never saw the queen in anime fillers like we did the father didn’t need to be she died a long time ago, but rather she still went on missions and fought on the frontlines unlike her mate. The idea that she became the strongest Saiyan and surpassed the king could be because she went out on dangerous missions and got a zenkai or two same way with Bardock and the others did. I do think if Goku’s mom was made an average Saiyan warrior we could explore that class of Saiyan more. Low class must mean Saiyans who were below what Saiyans consider is average strength for their race. Elite class must mean Saiyans who exceed what is considered average. Logically speaking there has to be an average Saiyan class that aren’t to weak or too strong. If Hanasia was in that class it could be a cool way to see a character in that class get explored. She could still be a bad ass even if she isn’t an elite warrior and still find the caste system dumb. Her choosing Bardock as her mate while he was still a low class warrior could have even shown that. It would mean she mated with someone below her class and probably seen as shameful because she thought Bardock had qualities she admired like ambition and drive to prove others wrong about him being worthless just because he was born a low class. She could be more cautious than Bardock and doesn’t take missions where she nearly ends up dead all the time like he did and doesn’t receive as many zenkai as Bardock did, which his movie all but said was the reason Bardock was getting so strong not through training. Plus we could have gotten two bad ass female Saiyans if Vegeta’s mom was the strongest female Saiyan who would become queen and Hanasia was average class who went out on missions and trained her kids. I think that would be great! I still don't see the problem of Hanasia being strong & not being Vegeta's mother. Paragus wasn't shit & yet he's the father of the legendary saiyan. Goku who was still weaker than Raditz mate with Chichi who's human had Gohan who is strong. It's not always "genes" that make a saiyan strong. I mean I think we got that with Bardock though. What is wrong with Vegeta having a strong mom who is in the story and eclipses his father to become the queen in her own right and Goku’s mom still being equally bad ass strong, just not the strongest and we see her spend time with her kids and not abandon them as lost cause like Bardock? Does both of Goku’s parents have to be the strongest and super special to matter?
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Post by godjacob on Jun 9, 2021 20:18:32 GMT
I get what you are saying, but I think DBM has always intended for Hanasia to be the strongest Saiyan in some shape or form. Hanasia even said she was the strongest Saiyan in one of the first U3 specials. Sure one guy disputed it, but the fact Hanasia said that and only one person can claim to have beaten her really gives weight to her claim being true. It is even more telling that when the Saiyan Empire is stable that Hanasia wins the tournament and the guy who beat her last time they fought didn’t. The idea Hanasia being the strongest and being the queen were likely always tied to her character in some shape or form. Going with that line of thinking I’m surprised this traits were not given to Vegeta’s mom. Vegeta’s mother being an elite warrior wouldn’t be surprising considering much emphasis is put on status and class in Saiyan society from what little we have seen. King Vegeta mating with the strongest female Saiyan also makes sense. A way to explain why we never saw the queen in anime fillers like we did the father didn’t need to be she died a long time ago, but rather she still went on missions and fought on the frontlines unlike her mate. The idea that she became the strongest Saiyan and surpassed the king could be because she went out on dangerous missions and got a zenkai or two same way with Bardock and the others did. I do think if Goku’s mom was made an average Saiyan warrior we could explore that class of Saiyan more. Low class must mean Saiyans who were below what Saiyans consider is average strength for their race. Elite class must mean Saiyans who exceed what is considered average. Logically speaking there has to be an average Saiyan class that aren’t to weak or too strong. If Hanasia was in that class it could be a cool way to see a character in that class get explored. She could still be a bad ass even if she isn’t an elite warrior and still find the caste system dumb. Her choosing Bardock as her mate while he was still a low class warrior could have even shown that. It would mean she mated with someone below her class and probably seen as shameful because she thought Bardock had qualities she admired like ambition and drive to prove others wrong about him being worthless just because he was born a low class. She could be more cautious than Bardock and doesn’t take missions where she nearly ends up dead all the time like he did and doesn’t receive as many zenkai as Bardock did, which his movie all but said was the reason Bardock was getting so strong not through training. Plus we could have gotten two bad ass female Saiyans if Vegeta’s mom was the strongest female Saiyan who would become queen and Hanasia was average class who went out on missions and trained her kids. I think that would be great! I still don't see the problem of Hanasia being strong & not being Vegeta's mother. Paragus wasn't shit & yet he's the father of the legendary saiyan. Goku who was still weaker than Raditz mate with Chichi who's human had Gohan who is strong. It's not always "genes" that make a saiyan strong. I mean I outlined several reasons to take issue with Hanasia being strong despite being Goku's mother, we disagree on if they are problems or not. Also I don't think you can count Broly given he is a literal one of a kind mutant of his people and being freakishly strong despite being born a low class nothing is his entire story and why King Vegeta takes such actions against him.
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Post by عمار on Jun 9, 2021 20:48:20 GMT
I mean I think we got that with Bardock though. What is wrong with Vegeta having a strong mom who is in the story and eclipses his father to become the queen in her own right and Goku’s mom still being equally bad ass strong, just not the strongestAnd what's wrong with Hanasia being the strongest while being Goku's mom & not Vegeta's? I still don't see the issue. She's not even a SSJ! And I remembered Salagir saying she won't become a SSJ no matter what. So, we should have an issue with Goku's father not his mother. and we see her spend time with her kids and not abandon them as lost cause like Bardock? She didn't abandon him! She did train him (in her own fucked up way). Does both of Goku’s parents have to be the strongest and super special to matter? No, But there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't see Hanasia as "special". She's just a saiyan who basted her ass to get where she is. I would say Vegeta, Broly, & Bardock are the special ones.
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Post by عمار on Jun 9, 2021 20:56:23 GMT
I mean I outlined several reasons to take issue with Hanasia being strong despite being Goku's mother, we disagree on if they are problems or not. Which I failed to see the issue in it, because Goku's achievement has nothing to do with her. You maybe should have problem with his father. Also I don't think you can count Broly given he is a literal one of a kind mutant of his people and being freakishly strong despite being born a low class nothing is his entire story and why King Vegeta takes such actions against him. Why not? He's the LSSJ! Yet his father is nobody. And speaking of which, Ancient Hanasia is the first ordinary saiyan who became a SSJ, & her parents? yeah...
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Post by godjacob on Jun 9, 2021 21:08:23 GMT
I mean I outlined several reasons to take issue with Hanasia being strong despite being Goku's mother, we disagree on if they are problems or not. Which I failed to see the issue in it, because Goku's achievement has nothing to do with her. You maybe should have problem with his father. Also I don't think you can count Broly given he is a literal one of a kind mutant of his people and being freakishly strong despite being born a low class nothing is his entire story and why King Vegeta takes such actions against him. Why not? He's the LSSJ! Yet his father is nobody. And speaking of which, Ancient Hanasia is the first ordinary who become a SSJ, & her parent? yeah... First off, I do have issues with Bardock, mentioned it earlier actually XD. I think I made it clear the story cheapened Goku in the Bardock Special by making his father this super cool badass who reaches the level of King Vegeta and gets an uber epic showdown with Frieza's army before going down to Frieza personally. Hanasia is just worse cause she becomes EVEN STRONGER as if Goku's family was not already exceptional enough. It spits in Goku's, Vegeta's and the Saiyan Saga's faces and feel it takes away from the story rather than adds to it. Broly became the LSSJ because he himself is a mutant, it isn't a trait passed down from anyone and unique only to him. The story makes this pretty clear, him being so strong despite Paragus being a weakling is an anomaly which is why King Vegeta takes action feeling threatened by it.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 9, 2021 21:14:48 GMT
I mean I think we got that with Bardock though. What is wrong with Vegeta having a strong mom who is in the story and eclipses his father to become the queen in her own right and Goku’s mom still being equally bad ass strong, just not the strongestAnd what's wrong with Hanasia being the strongest while being Goku's mom & not Vegeta's? I still don't see the issue. She's not even a SSJ! And I remembered Salagir saying she won't become a SSJ no matter what. So, we should have an issue with Goku's father not his mother. and we see her spend time with her kids and not abandon them as lost cause like Bardock? She didn't abandon him! She did train him (in her own fucked up way). Does both of Goku’s parents have to be the strongest and super special to matter? No, But there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't see Hanasia as "special". She's just a saiyan who basted her ass to get where she is. I would say Vegeta, Broly, & Bardock are the special ones. I don’t think she abandoned them, but what I’m saying is that it would have been nice to see that on screen or see her interacting with them more. I’m surprised you got that out of my sentence when I said it was Bardock who abandoned them as weak and what I liked about the mom is she said screw that and trained Kakarot. My issue is I wished we had seen her interact with kids more since it seemed unlike Bardock that she gave a fuck about them. I personally felt Hanasia had too many hats to wear and that the story ended up focusing on her being the strongest Saiyan who ended up becoming queen instead of the stuff I wished to see like her interact with her children on screen more got left by the waste side of her character. That is why I think maybe if she wasn’t an elite warrior Salagir would have thought of another Saiyan to succeed Bardock as ruler so we could have gotten to see Hanasia interact with her family more like I wished. I just personally feel Salagir fell into the trap that both of Goku’s parents had to be special to justify why we are following them. That is common trope in fiction and probably a large reason why the original Bardock movie had the idea that Bardock was on the verge of surpassing King Vegeta. I don’t think it inherently a bad idea, but I think parent can be nobodies and still matter. I do understand you personally do not see Hanasia as special and just another Saiyan who busted her ass off, but that might not be the case with Salagir. I am really trying to get your position here and so can you please explain your reasons for liking Hanasia so much and feel there should be no changes. I feel like we are just getting in well why does she need to change exchange and that isn’t discussion. Please tell me why you love Hanasia as she is and why you oppose people changing her character in anyway? I’m curious what you would think a character Vegeta’s mom should be. Or why you felt Salagir ignored her, but felt the need to make Goku’s mom. That might also bridge are misunderstanding here.
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Post by عمار on Jun 10, 2021 15:53:28 GMT
I am really trying to get your position here and so can you please explain your reasons for liking Hanasia so much and feel there should be no changes. I feel like we are just getting in well why does she need to change exchange and that isn’t discussion. Please tell me why you love Hanasia as she is and why you oppose people changing her character in anyway? You're putting me on the spot! I suck at explaining stuff! XD Well, I'll try my best. Hopefully it will make sense to you. Let's start with the easier ones: The funny light hearted stuff. 1. She kicked Vegeta's ass! Yeah, to many, this was frustrating. To me? Satisfying! 🤣 2. She's the first "wife" ever that made her "husband" shit his pants & IT ACTUALLY MADE SENSE!I don't know about all of you, but I'm tired of this "joke" in Shonen that make the male character scared of his wife/girlified or whatever. I sigh & roll my eyes every time I see Chichi & Bulma yelling at Vegeta & Goku & they being scared of them. It's not funny, it never been funny, & it will never be funny. But this: Yeah! Now that's funny! XD Okay, enough about this crap. Let's get to the real reasons: 3. She's more than "Goku's mom".
Her character is not just "the mother of Goku". Her character is not 100% tied to this fact. She does care about her sons powers but she also has goals of her own. What I'm trying to say is: Her life doesn't surround around her children. 4. She's an elite, but doesn't believe in the system.Man! I get tried every time I hear Vegeta or any saiyans talking about this "low class" "elite" stuff bs. Like I get it! you're strong & he's weak, you don't have to see it every single time! It's nice to see that Hanasia doesn't has this mindset that most saiyans have. She thinks numbers means nothing, & that any saiyans who push himself to the limit can be an elite, that's why she didn't gave up on her kids. And that's make her character stand out from other saiyans, but at the same time: 5. She's not "different" from other saiyans. Yes, she's stronger than the average saiyan & she become a queen in U3, & she doesn't believe an the "system". But she's not different from other saiyans. She's no SSJ like the first Hanasia, she's no LSSJ, & she's no "prodigy". she's just a another saiyan who basted her ass to reach the top just like the other kings & queens that were before her. And the most important thing that doesn't make her different is:6. She's not one of those "soft" saiyans.My god! Nothing piss me off more than Toriyama retconning the story by making Goku's mom (Gine) a "good person" as in a way to explain why Goku was different from the other saiyans. Like Goku was not good because of his parents! Goku was good because he hit his head & was raised by Grandpa Gohan! If you want to talk about being "special" I would say that Gine was a special saiyan which made Goku a special child. But on the other hand, Hanasia is not like that. Sure, she cared about Goku's strength, but so was King Vegeta. So, Hanasia like any other normal saiyan does not have "empathy". Which is why she's not a SSJ like the first Hanasia or Goku. Goku & the first Hanasia were different, she was not. 7. She destroyed this whole "genes" thing.
Like why should Goku's parents be weak in order for him to be weak or vice versa? What's wrong with his mother being a queen & for him to be a weakling? Like I get it, "genes" do play a factor, but does it always has to be like this? And for you & godjacob saying that it "cheapened" Goku's story, it didn't (well, at least from his mother side). Goku's didn't get this strong because "genes". He was strong compare to the humans but to the saiyans he was weak. He needed to die & train under a god in order for him to reach the level of an "elite" & yet he still lost to Vegeta. What made Goku reach the level that he is today is because he was different from other saiyans. He had empathy. He become a SSJ because of these feelings, not because daddy & mommy are strong. He's the true successor of the first Hanasia. And what's prove my point that in U3, he was nothing. So, yes, Goku's powers has nothing to do with his parents. In U1,U10 & U3 he's not weak because of them. And in U18 he's not strong because of them either. And I like that a lot. And yeah! Let's not forget Raditz! The idea that he's always viewed as a disappointment add to his character & make his relationship with his brother in U13 more meaningful. And about Vegeta's mother: I’m curious what you would think a character Vegeta’s mom should be. Or why you felt Salagir ignored her, but felt the need to make Goku’s mom. That might also bridge are misunderstanding here. Honestly, if she will only exist as explanation of why Vegeta is this strong & be a queen because she's Vegeta's mother than I don't want her to exist. If she's not gonna stand out like Hanasia then what's the point of her. Vegeta is fine as his own. Like I said, Hanasia is more than "Goku's mom".
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 10, 2021 17:20:31 GMT
Okay. See now I can understand where you coming from better lol. Before it felt like you just quoted me would say somethings you had a problem with what I said, which made me think I needed to explain more. Fundamentally we just wanted two different things from the character. I wanted to see her interact with her family more. That is why I felt her being made queen in U3 and being the strongest detracted from the family interactions on screen for me. I was excited for the character, but after the last U3 special I was just disappointed she was killed without seeing a whole lot interaction with Raditz or Kakarot. Ghost Hanasia sounded like she was disappointed in Ghost Kakarot but was more affectionate to Ghost Raditz. I would have liked to have seen those developments on screen instead of being left to the imagination.
I guess for me I just didn’t see need yet another Saiyan disproves the caste system yet again. I got that with Bardock and would have liked a Royal Saiyan who could actually do something beyond Vegeta. For me I wish we got his mom he that had ass Saiyan who won the throne back herself. I don’t mind Goku isn’t the only one sort of disproves it. It is just not something I feel like we to be told over and over again to the point I feel like it is the only story told about the Saiyans. Blood doesn’t matter anyone can be strong. I get it already.
I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on this though, which is cool. I am glad you liked Hanasia as a character. I just wanted to see more about her interactions with her family on screen. I didn’t find where he story went to be my cup of tea. I do like her more than Gine.
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Post by عمار on Jun 16, 2021 19:56:55 GMT
I finally found it: linkAnd according to Salagir, saiyans are not born elite: linkSo, Hanasia was not born elite. But it does not say if she was consider a low class warrior or not. 🤔 Vegeta was 6,500 units when he was 6 years old. We can assume that in 2 years he was above 9,000 units (since he said he surpass his father when he was a kid) but still weaker than Hanasia who was above 12,500 after two years. godjacob Son Pan Blaze
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Post by godjacob on Jun 16, 2021 20:38:25 GMT
I finally found it: linkAnd it according to Salagir, saiyans are not born elite: linkSo, Hanasia was not born elite. But it does not say if she was consider a low class warrior or not. 🤔 Vegeta was 6,500 units when he was 6 years old. We can assume that in 2 years he was above 9,000 units (since he said he surpass his father when he was a kid) but still weaker than Hanasia who was above 12,500 after two years. godjacob Son Pan Blaze First, appreciate this info. Can you also find that old power tier chart that was around in the early DBM days? XD Second I already said them being born low class means literally nothing when both broke the class system anyway and became elites by the time Goku and Raditz were born making that a moot point for me personally. Third, for crying out loud nobody is "born" an elite? Are you kidding me? THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT! Goku was considered a low class nobody as an infant and sent off to some no name world to conquer it given his low status. Vegeta, as contrast, was considered the elite of his people at birth and granted all the privileges that came with it. Does Salagir member nothing about the Saiyan Saga? Let's not even get to something like DBS Broly which reveals elites like Vegeta were segregated to their own section in the birth chambers with Vegeta in specific getting his own special spot in that section (Only joined by Broly due to his unusual power).
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Post by عمار on Jun 16, 2021 21:00:51 GMT
First, appreciate this info. You're welcome. Can you also find that old power tier chart that was around in the early DBM days? XD Old power tier chart? 🤔 Doesn't bring any bells. Can you tell me more about it, so maybe I can remember look for it for you? Second I already said them being born low class means literally nothing when both broke the class system anyway and became elites by the time Goku and Raditz were born making that a moot point for me personally. Maybe Vegeta wasn'y paying attention to them, he was only 6 after all. Third, for crying out loud nobody is "born" an elite? Are you kidding me? THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT! Goku was considered a low class nobody as an infant and sent off to some no name world to conquer it given his low status. Vegeta, as contrast, was considered the elite of his people at birth and granted all the privileges that came with it. Does Salagir member nothing about the Saiyan Saga? Lol! XD Do you want me to save this "question" for the next Twitch stream? 🤣
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