Hanasia in DBM (Gokus mom)

Look it was years ago I wish I could tell you more but I can't XD I think it on the main comic itself but I cannot tell you with confidence. All I know was I used that chart once to try and draft up my own custom DBM roster on Word but that computer and info was lost years ago.

I mean Vegeta wants to be the strongest of the Saiyans. Having someone, at one point considered "low class" be above him would be a perpetual salt in the wound. Having someone above him among his people in general would be a sore spot. Not something he'd just "lol okay" accept. 

I think it was more an official thing rather than a fan comment, but do recall things like "in-between tier" so might be it. Only it had more names on it. 

Which is dumb, for a number of reasons, first being Hanasia (Given her whole "excuse" for being so strong was her point to prove story) would like hide her "past" as a low class Saiyan. Or Vegeta not being able to know of them, I think he'd be interested to know how this random woman outside his family is above him in power. 

It ends up making the whole thing more of a mess than if, say, they decided not to make Goku's parents the two most special and awesome Saiyans ever. 

Look I can't remember it was like a full chart kinda thing. But I cannot tell more than that. Sorry, but appreciate the effort you've done all the same, don't give yourself a headache over this lol

You know, upon reflection, while I still think Hanasia is a giant Mary Sue (Bra comparable) and her power is an overall mistake in DBM, I think she might've been more tolerable not as Goku's mother or even Vegeta's mother (Even if power wise it'd make the most sense) but Turles mother.

She'd still retain her low class origin, her strength wouldn't affect Turles story compared to Goku/Kakarot, and it would actually allow Turles to be part of DBM proper. And could possibly expand on why Turles looks similar to Goku when "low class Saiyans look alike" clearly does not cut it.

Again whether Hanasia started off as an elite or not is never the point, the point is not only is she and elite when Kakarot is born but the strongest Saiyan of her era. Even more than Bardock or King Vegeta.



Second saying Goku "destroyed" all his enemies in DB manga would be a major exaggeration. Goku was comically stronger than the Pilaf Gang and first arc villains, but Krillin (An earthing given the same training he had been) was able to somewhat keep up with him in the 21st Budokai, and he lost to Roshi in the finals with Roshi even managing to stop his Oozaru rampage. General Blue, a Red Ribbon Army guy, was able to present a physical challenge to Goku and Tao effortlessly destroyed him leading Goku the need to seek out Korin's aid. Tien (Another earthling) beat Goku in the 22nd Budokai. Tambourine, one of King Piccolo's servants (WIth even prime King Piccolo being on the weak side of the Namekian scale), was able to beat upon Kid Goku who again needed training to overcome. Then King Piccolo nearly killed him as an old man, requiring the Ultra Divine Water to close the gap on him. He and Piccolo Jr. were dead even with Goku winning by the skin of his teeth, and either of those two were fodder to Raditz who was among the low end of the Saiyan race.



Even if you ignore how they compare to Saiyans were Goku very much was a weakling and a joke, Goku was never presented as the be all to end all in Dragon Ball especially when the story began to get serious with the King Piccolo Arc. Goku struggled, Goku lost to foes the Saiyans would've written off as nobodies and Goku needed to train and sometimes get power ups just to compete and overcome them. Even if there was no overt underdog element in the original DB Goku still was someone who had to better himself and improve to meet rising challenges.



It's Dragon Ball's principle lesson. Roshi flat out spells it out.


Does that fit a character who was just "born a winner in life"? Goku was a strong boy in the woods, but he was far from the best on Earth and needed training, near death experiences, struggles and some divine intervention in order to rise to become that by the end of the original DB.

It's not so much a question of genetics, but it is more how just giving Goku the two strongest Saiyans ever as his parents does cheapen this story. And of course utterly tanks Vegeta's but I don't think Salagir has much respect for Vegeta to begin with so that is expected. 

I’m happy to hear his rationale for why he made Hanasia as strong as he did. I can see the whole Bardock mating with someone strong to produce strong children. I’m in middle between Salagir’s Goku’s always been a born winner and godjacob’s Goku’s being a low level warrior who got strong is essential to his character beliefs. In earlier posts on here I explained how I felt it was sort of added too late in Goku’s development to truly ring as essential to me. At the same time I don’t think Goku defeated everyone with as much ease Salagir described either. I do think Goku needed to train hard and needed certain circumstances to be as strong he was. I just don’t think Goku being a low level Saiyan who surpassed an elite was all that special. To me Goku did what he always did trained hard to surpass his limits.

I do believe Salagir when he said he wasn’t trying to make this a genes thing. Nothing is wrong with Hanasia’s personality. It just feels weird Goku had to have two parents that were the among the strongest of the race. My complaints more stemmed from it felt like Hanasia had too many hats to wear for us to properly get to know her and I don’t think being the queen and strongest Saiyan really added much to hear character. It felt like that trait could have gone to say Vegeta’s mom to me. That is just me.

And that is fine, I don't personally care how anyone sees it it is simply how I see it and my disagreement with Salagir's view of things.

But "human" POV? Most of my reply focused on the original DB which is human POV, but you cannot ignore the series does expand to a much larger scope for the second half+ of its run which that human POV is quite small in comparison to the larger universe. Focus on how DB presented Goku is fine (And what I felt I did most of my reply) but ignoring what later DB introduced to claim Goku was always this super strong OP guy is only looking at half the story to. The point of Goku's Saiyan background was to recontextualize how we see the original DB events, how those "amazing" feats he did as a child. I mean, it has to be given the main subject we're talking about is Goku's SAIYAN background and his parents, the main topic of this page.

But let's focus on that human POV since that is all that matters it seems. The same human POV that paints Goku as strong, comically strong, but not something beyond everyone else. The same human POV that had Goku lose to a human twice in consecutive Budokai, the same human POV that had Goku left for dead on 3 occasions (One by a human), the same human POV that had Goku grow not because he was just naturally superior to his peers, but because he trained even harder than them (And even got to train with God in Kami to cross to the top spot at the end of DB). I can go on but my point isn't that Goku was actually this chump this whole time even in the original DB, my point was Goku was considered strong in DB but not the strongest and the Earth always provided someone Goku struggled with or needed help or special aid in order to overcome even in the earlier story arcs. Those losses and struggles are not to show Goku is a chump, or anything to that effect but that Goku in spite of what people lile Bulma believed was not the strongest guy around and still had people comfortably above him.

That is why Roshi entered the tournament, his joke comment of being in pain doesn't negate the original premise of wanting to avoid Goku getting big headed for thinking he was the top of the world already when there was stronger foes waiting out there. People stronger than Roshi himself (And the fight was only barley a win because Bulma saved Goku from being hypnotized, the full moon came out to trigger Oozaru to break out of Roshi's paralyzing technique and Roshi wasting most of his power blowing up the moon but that semantics). The overt underdog thing was a Saiyan Saga invention, but Goku not being the strongest around and having others even other Earthlings above him even in the OG Dragon Ball was not. 

And the point is, if you don't want Goku's parents to matter to Goku's power, if you don't want to make it a genetics thing than going out of your way to show Hanasia was not merely a strong Saiyan but THE STRONGEST Saiyan around, giving her cool aciton moment and feat over and over again and talking up how badass she is doesn't help. It only draws attention back to Goku's parents and does suggest Goku got as strong as he is in part because of them. It brings attention back to itself, even if the story does turn around and try to argue "Well yes Hanasia is cool but i-ignore her she has nothing to do with Goku's power." And that just feels like wanting your cake and eating it to.

Good points here. What I meant about Goku being a slight underdog is that he was quite the weakling compared to Vegeta and even the rest of the Saiyan race at the start of Z when Raditz first arrived. I know he rose past this goal and surpassed Vegeta before long but even then he had his ass beat on more than one occasion in DB. If you look at his power level before the Vegeta fight and his god training, he was a chump in comparison to anyone not from Earth. Let alone that Freezas mid to low tier soldiers should have been able to murder him without much effort.

I’ll admit that during Dragon Ball and even later/most parts of Z he came off as more of a prodigy than an underdog but even then he did have to train his ass off on a few occasions and even only discovered SSJ3 for example because of being in the afterlife and having the benefit of an undead body. Not to mention what ever other advantages that he may of been granted for training while dead. Compared to say Vegeta who was stuck on Earth, training in a gravity room.

Bit off topic but i’v always sorta thought that Goku being able to train with the gods/other worlds best basically non stop while he was dead wasn’t all that fair compared to what most other characters in DBZ had to work with for training. Not that Goku didn’t earn it and only bringing it up for comparison but no other top tier Saiyan/fighter got this same privilege as him to do this sort of training. Other than the Humans a little bit in filler I guess (should have gave them Kaioken).
My point was more about how weak he was when Raditz first arrived and how he had to train his ass off to get past even basic Freeza soldier levels at first.

That’s why I thought his mother being a supreme elite seemingly even though he was originally thought to be born from weaklings is weird. His parents being low class nobody’s fits better with Vegetas OG analysis of Goku imo is all I’m saying. Bardock or his mother shooting up to elite levels could work alright I think if they’ve been beat near to death in many missions/wounded heavily quite a bit as Bardock was shown to be in his movie special. Not just no real explanation of her being stronger than King Vegeta all of the sudden for some reason.
As I said before not saying that her or Bardock that obviously raised his power through near death Zenkais couldn’t be a thing. Just that Goku coming from op parents that surpassed even King Vegeta in this comic was a little much.
I know Vegeta is an arrogant SOB but if Gokus mom was that strong he shouldn’t have been that surprised about Goku being able to increase in power that much compared to him originally.

To be blunt honest with you people:

I never liked Hanasia.

She is the perfect embodiment of the phrase "Tryhard"

And by that I mean the creators try so hard to make her cool/edgy/badass and it just makes me cringe.
She's about as irritating as Bra tbchwy.

I'm not a fan and dislike her beings pushed as some badass all the time.