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Post by Son Pan on Jun 2, 2021 1:11:31 GMT
That is valid to feel I just think it is too much to say Goku having strong parents completely invalidates his choices and achievements. Goku being underdog was really only used for one arc when before Goku was pretty much shown to just be a prodigy who was just naturally strong and grew so fast and was hardly a underdog at all. Arguably those traits never left since the big reason Goku is so strong is because he is a Saiyan. Other characters trained just as hard but never made half his gains because they didn’t have zenkai boosts and later transformations until Toriayama drop pretense that human characters mattered in a fight. I get not liking the idea of Goku having famous or important parents. I can see your point on it feeling like takes away from Goku a bit. I hope I didn’t sound like I was completely crapping on your opinion. In terms of Shonen that botched the idea of underdog rags to riches story that Dragon Ball hasn’t committed that sin compared to another series like Naruro where the appeal of his character was he was a loser and nobody who trained hard to surpass the elites, only to find out later he came from an elite blood line himself and was destined to save the world. And this is also valid, and no I got no sense you were crapping on my opinion, but you seem to focus on the idea that Goku HAS to be an underdog, he isn't past the Saiyan Saga. I disagree that he is some natural prodigy, only Vegeta ever made that claim in his Majin state and his words are to be taken shakily at best given it is more or less implied he was venting and lying to himself during that speech. Everything Goku ever did, in DB, DBZ and DBS/DBGT beyond is cause Goku has a passion for fighting and trains his ass off. He hated the SSG form at first cause it was the first thing he couldn't achieve off his own efforts. Goku worked harder, worked smarter than others like Vegeta and was never afraid to ask for help be it human or divine. Gohan is the natural prodigy in the Son family, where as Goku was a freak of hard work. The most egregious case of natural talent was his zenkai boosts which compared to Vegeta were absurd (And still BS) but were never mentioned for Goku past that arc. Not saying Goku was as offensive to old themes as Naruto, but the idea that Goku's parents going from low level nobodies whose one defining act was giving Goku a chance to grow up on Earth to being the top Saiyans around does have undertones I simply am not a fan of. It does nothing but glorify his genes when that is not the point of Goku's character, and it also cheapens Vegeta & Frieza as now Frieza's motive shifts from "worried the Saiyans collectively will rise against him" to "oh these specific Saiyans are so OP I HAVE to do something to them" and Vegeta no longer is a standout Saiyan given Hanasia spanked his butt and Vegeta was supposed to be the greatest prodigy of his race not named Broly. It literally makes everyone but the parents look worse. What I meant is in old DB before we knew Goku was an alien he seemed to be naturally more gifted than others. For example Goku picked up learning the Kamehamaha by seeing Roshi do it once and it was noted to be very odd and showed how special Goku was. Goku undoubtedly trains hard and agree that is a big reason he is as strong as he is, but as a child there were some signs of Goku having the Shonen main character prodigy traits. Even training for three days to catch Korin was enough to let Goku from getting soundly beaten by Tao to throughly trounce him next time they fought. I felt the underdog elements of Goku being a low born warrior trying to best elite warrior were late additions that didn’t really hold a lot of water given past events. To me Vegeta and Goku rivalry never felt like had working underdog vs. the privileged genius, at least not as much Naruto and Sasuke was built as.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 2, 2021 1:21:22 GMT
And this is also valid, and no I got no sense you were crapping on my opinion, but you seem to focus on the idea that Goku HAS to be an underdog, he isn't past the Saiyan Saga. I disagree that he is some natural prodigy, only Vegeta ever made that claim in his Majin state and his words are to be taken shakily at best given it is more or less implied he was venting and lying to himself during that speech. Everything Goku ever did, in DB, DBZ and DBS/DBGT beyond is cause Goku has a passion for fighting and trains his ass off. He hated the SSG form at first cause it was the first thing he couldn't achieve off his own efforts. Goku worked harder, worked smarter than others like Vegeta and was never afraid to ask for help be it human or divine. Gohan is the natural prodigy in the Son family, where as Goku was a freak of hard work. The most egregious case of natural talent was his zenkai boosts which compared to Vegeta were absurd (And still BS) but were never mentioned for Goku past that arc. Not saying Goku was as offensive to old themes as Naruto, but the idea that Goku's parents going from low level nobodies whose one defining act was giving Goku a chance to grow up on Earth to being the top Saiyans around does have undertones I simply am not a fan of. It does nothing but glorify his genes when that is not the point of Goku's character, and it also cheapens Vegeta & Frieza as now Frieza's motive shifts from "worried the Saiyans collectively will rise against him" to "oh these specific Saiyans are so OP I HAVE to do something to them" and Vegeta no longer is a standout Saiyan given Hanasia spanked his butt and Vegeta was supposed to be the greatest prodigy of his race not named Broly. It literally makes everyone but the parents look worse. What I meant is in old DB before we knew Goku was an alien he seemed to be naturally more gifted than others. For example Goku picked up learning the Kamehamaha by seeing Roshi do it once and it was noted to be very odd and showed how special Goku was. Goku undoubtedly trains hard and agree that is a big reason he is as strong as he is, but as a child there were some signs of Goku having the Shonen main character prodigy traits. Even training for three days to catch Korin was enough to let Goku from getting soundly beaten by Tao to throughly trounce him next time they fought. I felt the underdog elements of Goku being a low born warrior trying to best elite warrior were late additions that didn’t really hold a lot of water given past events. To me Vegeta and Goku rivalry never felt like had working underdog vs. the privileged genius, at least not as much Naruto and Sasuke was built as. That's actually more of the gag side of the plot than anything rather than Shonen cliches of the OG Dragon Ball, Goku learning the Kamehameha after seeing Roshi do it once was a set up and punch line given Roshi just said it would take 50 years for Goku to do it. When the story got serious with the introduction of King Piccolo is when Goku began to need to train (Or in a piece of BS, the Ultra Divine Water) to compete with threats, and this is before we find out he is an alien.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 2, 2021 1:57:44 GMT
What I meant is in old DB before we knew Goku was an alien he seemed to be naturally more gifted than others. For example Goku picked up learning the Kamehamaha by seeing Roshi do it once and it was noted to be very odd and showed how special Goku was. Goku undoubtedly trains hard and agree that is a big reason he is as strong as he is, but as a child there were some signs of Goku having the Shonen main character prodigy traits. Even training for three days to catch Korin was enough to let Goku from getting soundly beaten by Tao to throughly trounce him next time they fought. I felt the underdog elements of Goku being a low born warrior trying to best elite warrior were late additions that didn’t really hold a lot of water given past events. To me Vegeta and Goku rivalry never felt like had working underdog vs. the privileged genius, at least not as much Naruto and Sasuke was built as. That's actually more of the gag side of the plot than anything rather than Shonen cliches of the OG Dragon Ball, Goku learning the Kamehameha after seeing Roshi do it once was a set up and punch line given Roshi just said it would take 50 years for Goku to do it. When the story got serious with the introduction of King Piccolo is when Goku began to need to train (Or in a piece of BS, the Ultra Divine Water) to compete with threats, and this is before we find out he is an alien. I always took it as both a gag and a serious story element since seeing Goku learn the move so fast is what inspired Roshi to offer Goku training in the first place. I do want to make it clear I’m not saying Goku was only strong because he was the main character of was a prodigy. I just meant Goku seemed something akin to a prodigy, but still needed to train hard as well, before the alien reveal. When DB became more sci-fi oriented it felt like trying to add the whole Goku was born weak and was at a disadvantage to the rest of his race felt a bit of a late addition for me to as it being a defining part of Goku’s story. Goku love of challenges and training to test himself are absolutely part of his character. The class system was always more of Vegeta’s character and how he viewed things. Goku could have strong parents, but as we saw with Gohan unless he has the drive to train it doesn’t mean much in the end.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 2, 2021 2:08:44 GMT
That's actually more of the gag side of the plot than anything rather than Shonen cliches of the OG Dragon Ball, Goku learning the Kamehameha after seeing Roshi do it once was a set up and punch line given Roshi just said it would take 50 years for Goku to do it. When the story got serious with the introduction of King Piccolo is when Goku began to need to train (Or in a piece of BS, the Ultra Divine Water) to compete with threats, and this is before we find out he is an alien. I always took it as both a gag and a serious story element since seeing Goku learn the move so fast is what inspired Roshi to offer Goku training in the first place. I do want to make it clear I’m not saying Goku was only strong because he was the main character of was a prodigy. I just meant Goku seemed something akin to a prodigy, but still needed to train hard as well, before the alien reveal. When DB became more sci-fi oriented it felt like trying to add the whole Goku was born weak and was at a disadvantage to the rest of his race felt a bit of a late addition for me to as it being a defining part of Goku’s story. Goku love of challenges and training to test himself are absolutely part of his character. The class system was always more of Vegeta’s character and how he viewed things. Goku could have strong parents, but as we saw with Gohan unless he has the drive to train it doesn’t mean much in the end. I mean Roshi only agreed to train Goku if he found a hot woman to bring back to the island with him, Krillin needed to bribe Roshi with porn to get him to teach him. I feel the story leaned more heavily on the gag side than the serious side when it came to this. Hell I would argue Goku wasn't even the most talented fighter in DB to begin with, Tien seemed to one up Goku (Even using the Kamehameha the first time to mock Roshi for how easy it was) and beat him in their first battle. The most you could say was Goku was a freakishly strong boy out of the gate for unclear reasons (Sun Wukong homage to begin with, Saiyan revealation later). I mean Gohan is a reason on his own Bardock but especially Hanasia being as strong as they are is a mistake. With such strong parents Goku shoud've been stronger out of the gate (Like how Gohan could injure Raditz as an untrained child) given both were much much stronger than Chi-Chi and Goku were. Hell Hanasia ruins Vegeta's early arc of learning the class system was a shame, as he already got beat by a low level nobody years before he ever met Goku. So it cheapens his arc right out of the gate.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 2, 2021 3:01:28 GMT
I always took it as both a gag and a serious story element since seeing Goku learn the move so fast is what inspired Roshi to offer Goku training in the first place. I do want to make it clear I’m not saying Goku was only strong because he was the main character of was a prodigy. I just meant Goku seemed something akin to a prodigy, but still needed to train hard as well, before the alien reveal. When DB became more sci-fi oriented it felt like trying to add the whole Goku was born weak and was at a disadvantage to the rest of his race felt a bit of a late addition for me to as it being a defining part of Goku’s story. Goku love of challenges and training to test himself are absolutely part of his character. The class system was always more of Vegeta’s character and how he viewed things. Goku could have strong parents, but as we saw with Gohan unless he has the drive to train it doesn’t mean much in the end. I mean Roshi only agreed to train Goku if he found a hot woman to bring back to the island with him, Krillin needed to bribe Roshi with porn to get him to teach him. I feel the story leaned more heavily on the gag side than the serious side when it came to this. Hell I would argue Goku wasn't even the most talented fighter in DB to begin with, Tien seemed to one up Goku (Even using the Kamehameha the first time to mock Roshi for how easy it was) and beat him in their first battle. The most you could say was Goku was a freakishly strong boy out of the gate for unclear reasons (Sun Wukong homage to begin with, Saiyan revealation later). I mean Gohan is a reason on his own Bardock but especially Hanasia being as strong as they are is a mistake. With such strong parents Goku shoud've been stronger out of the gate (Like how Gohan could injure Raditz as an untrained child) given both were much much stronger than Chi-Chi and Goku were. Hell Hanasia ruins Vegeta's early arc of learning the class system was a shame, as he already got beat by a low level nobody years before he ever met Goku. So it cheapens his arc right out of the gate. I agree to disagree. I agree with DBM didn’t need to have Hanasia being Bardock’s mate. I felt like she should have been King Vegeta’s mate and feel like she would have added more to Vegeta’s story. Goku and Raditz mom could have been low class or average warrior.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 2, 2021 3:12:34 GMT
I mean Roshi only agreed to train Goku if he found a hot woman to bring back to the island with him, Krillin needed to bribe Roshi with porn to get him to teach him. I feel the story leaned more heavily on the gag side than the serious side when it came to this. Hell I would argue Goku wasn't even the most talented fighter in DB to begin with, Tien seemed to one up Goku (Even using the Kamehameha the first time to mock Roshi for how easy it was) and beat him in their first battle. The most you could say was Goku was a freakishly strong boy out of the gate for unclear reasons (Sun Wukong homage to begin with, Saiyan revealation later). I mean Gohan is a reason on his own Bardock but especially Hanasia being as strong as they are is a mistake. With such strong parents Goku shoud've been stronger out of the gate (Like how Gohan could injure Raditz as an untrained child) given both were much much stronger than Chi-Chi and Goku were. Hell Hanasia ruins Vegeta's early arc of learning the class system was a shame, as he already got beat by a low level nobody years before he ever met Goku. So it cheapens his arc right out of the gate. I agree to disagree. I agree with DBM didn’t need to have Hanasia being Bardock’s mate. I felt like she should have been King Vegeta’s mate and feel like she would have added more to Vegeta’s story. Goku and Raditz mom could have been low class or average warrior. Holy shit if Hanasia had been Vegeta's mom then all my complaints would've gone out the window, and dare say I might praise her. While still being above King Vegeta would be somewhat questionable, her power would actually serve a point and advance Vegeta's story. Damn now I wish they had gone that direction lol
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Post by Blaze on Jun 4, 2021 12:56:20 GMT
Randomly gonna chime in to say I do think it'd be better if Hanasia wasn't Goku's mum. And that Goku's mum should be a nothing warrior of average strength. And absolutely not kindhearted.
Goku being unbelievably strong and talented was a whole thing in the original series, but the Saiyan Arc reveal was meant to be a twist on why that was. And at the same time it gave us the idea of Goku being low class. It was mostly just a saiyan arc thing, except for Vegeta spouting shit, but I'd still prefer if it was kept.
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Post by baconfam on Jun 5, 2021 16:23:48 GMT
She's another overly hyped character with too much attention imho. I use to think she was a Mary Sue too. Like Bra.
Not anymore, but I still don't care for her and think they tryhard to make her badass all the time.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 5, 2021 21:32:16 GMT
Randomly gonna chime in to say I do think it'd be better if Hanasia wasn't Goku's mum. And that Goku's mum should be a nothing warrior of average strength. And absolutely not kindhearted. Goku being unbelievably strong and talented was a whole thing in the original series, but the Saiyan Arc reveal was meant to be a twist on why that was. And at the same time it gave us the idea of Goku being low class. It was mostly just a saiyan arc thing, except for Vegeta spouting shit, but I'd still prefer if it was kept. Hanasia as a character works better not being Raditz and Kakarot’s mother. I just feel like I’m f the character was split into two with one being Hanasia elite warrior who became the future Queen of Saiyans and a female Saiyan that was Bardock’s mate that it might have worked better in the long run. It would have been cool to see Bardock family interact more in the specials. With Hanasia being the mother too kind of made it so we didn’t get to see her interact a lot with her family. I like the idea of Goku’s mom not buying into the caste system and wanting to train her children because she believes they can be strong Saiyans. It would have been cool to see her train Raditz or little Kakarot while Bardock blew them off and considered them a lost cause despite his own origins of being a low class warrior.
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 9:18:36 GMT
So, I guess I'm the only one who has no problem with Hanasia being Goku's mother. To me, Goku's was never viewed as an "underdog" who has to prove himself to others. It was the complete opposite actually. Goku was always viewed as the "special" one from the beginning of DB until the end of DBZ. And I don't understand what Vegeta's view has to do with Hanasia? & I don't understand what's with the hate on Hanasia? Like she didn't appeared that much, so I don't know why people are bashing her...
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2021 17:39:24 GMT
So, I guess I'm the only one who has no problem with Hanasia being Goku's mother. To me, Goku's was never viewed as an "underdog" who have to prove himself to others. It was the complete opposite actually. Goku was always viewed as the "special" one from the beginning of DB until the end of DBZ. And I don't understand what Vegeta's view has to do with Hanasia? & I don't understand what's with the hate on Hanasia? Like she didn't appeared that much, so I don't know why people are bashing her... Even ignoring the lack of underdog nature Goku had (Which was an element in the Saiyan Saga, and the basis of Goku/Vegeta's rivalry and an element of the story I liked) the issue is Salagir did not merely make Goku's mother a badass warrior. Not, it had to be the extreme of Hanasia being the strongest, the most badass, the coolest Saiyan of her generation making every other Saiyan character minus Broly (Another creator's pet in DBM) look worse off. Plus it adds an element of unquestioned eugenics to Goku's success now which detracts from his achievements making his power more a product who his parents were than who he was. Goku at his core is someone with a freakish love and aptitude for martial arts, but only got as far as he ever did based on the people and teachers in his life lending their wisdom and aid to allow Goku to climb to a new level after the last. The reason Goku always is one step ahead of Vegeta is not just because of some "natural talent" Vegeta whined about as a Majin, but because Goku knew how to train hard and smart. Knew when to accept help, knew when to rest and not mindlessly torture his body without break. All aspects Vegeta had to learn by the end of the Buu Saga and beyond. Goku being just naturally more privileged than Vegeta with even stronger & cooler parents just to be cheapens who Goku is even beyond the Saiyan Saga.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 6, 2021 19:29:00 GMT
So, I guess I'm the only one who has no problem with Hanasia being Goku's mother. To me, Goku's was never viewed as an "underdog" who have to prove himself to others. It was the complete opposite actually. Goku was always viewed as the "special" one from the beginning of DB until the end of DBZ. And I don't understand what Vegeta's view has to do with Hanasia? & I don't understand what's with the hate on Hanasia? Like she didn't appeared that much, so I don't know why people are bashing her... For me it is not that I dislike Hanasia as a character. I don’t even think her and Bardock really undermine Goku’s character as much, U3 showed its Kakarot not going to Earth and staying Saiyan society made him fairly weak and the unfavorite to his bad ass parents, just that I personally felt her character just had a lot of elements to it that the one I would have liked exploring was kind of glossed over. In some of the earlier U3 specials I really liked Hanasia didn’t buy into the caste system and wanted to train Kakarot to be stronger despite Bardock all, but giving up on him. I was looking forward to seeing more of that in the later specials, but instead I felt like her later story just focused her being the strongest Saiyan and eventually becoming the queen that lead her people in a new era before Broly killed her and became king himself. In hindsight for me I think the character of Goku’s mom could have been removed from Hanasia, who has enough going on with her character to be a separate entity that worked the same way U3 specials went while the character of Goku’s mother could have been someone else and I could have seen story elements that I wanted to see, Hanasia not giving up on her sons, supporting them, and her feeling the caste system is flawed. I don’t think Hanasia is a bad character at all. If she had to be anyone’s mother I just think it would have made more sense for Vegeta’s. King Vegeta mating with the strongest female Saiyan makes more sense story wise, since the Saiyans believe in bloodlines, the king mating with the strongest female to produce a strong heir would fit the story. Vegeta is always proud of his bloodline and a strong belief in his people’s caste system Hanasia being his mother would help further that belief in his mind IMO.
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 19:29:02 GMT
Even ignoring the lack of underdog nature Goku had (Which was an element in the Saiyan Saga, and the basis of Goku/Vegeta's rivalry and an element of the story I liked) the issue is Salagir did not merely make Goku's mother a badass warrior. Not, it had to be the extreme of Hanasia being the strongest, the most badass, the coolest Saiyan of her generation making every other Saiyan character minus Broly (Another creator's pet in DBM) look worse off.That's maybe because he didn't have time to develop her. And don't see her as the most "badass" because she didn't do anything worth mentioning, other than becoming queen of the saiyans (Which only happen in U3) by beating a 8 years old Vegeta. Which is probably why there's a lot of people didn't like her. I still remember a lot of readers were butthurt in the comment section because she kicked Vegeta's ass. Like they really wanted a 8 years old Vegeta to be the king of the saiyins, like it wasn't insulting enough that he made it to the final. Plus it adds an element of unquestioned eugenics to Goku's success now which detracts from his achievements making his power more a product who his parents were than who he was.Goku at his core is someone with a freakish love and aptitude for martial arts, but only got as far as he ever did based on the people and teachers in his life lending their wisdom and aid to allow Goku to climb to a new level after the last. The reason Goku always is one step ahead of Vegeta is not just because of some "natural talent" Vegeta whined about as a Majin, but because Goku knew how to train hard and smart. Knew when to accept help, knew when to rest and not mindlessly torture his body without break. All aspects Vegeta had to learn by the end of the Buu Saga and beyond. Goku being just naturally more privileged than Vegeta with even stronger & cooler parents just to be cheapens who Goku is even beyond the Saiyan Saga. But Goku's success has nothing to do with his parents "genes", it was all thanks to his hard work & the teaching that he got on earth. Goku was only "naturally privileged" compare to the humans but to the saiyans he was worthless! He was even a lot weaker than Raditz who's consider a weak & a disgrace. That's why they send him on earth which was supposed to be weak planet. If Goku was "naturally gifted" like you said then all versions of Goku would have reached SSJ. But that's not the case. Other than the "Gokus" only U13 Kakarotto reach SSJ & it was only thanks to his immortality that he made it this far. U3 Kakarotto didn't reach SSJ & I believe he was still consider weaker than Raditz, & don't let me get started on U1 & U10 Kakarotto. Goku's achievements has nothing to do with his parents "genes" or whatever. It was all thanks to his hard work.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2021 19:34:47 GMT
Even ignoring the lack of underdog nature Goku had (Which was an element in the Saiyan Saga, and the basis of Goku/Vegeta's rivalry and an element of the story I liked) the issue is Salagir did not merely make Goku's mother a badass warrior. Not, it had to be the extreme of Hanasia being the strongest, the most badass, the coolest Saiyan of her generation making every other Saiyan character minus Broly (Another creator's pet in DBM) look worse off.That's maybe because he didn't have time to develop her. And don't see her as the most "badass" because she didn't do anything worth mentioning, other than becoming queen of the saiyans (Which only happen in U3) by beating a 8 years old Vegeta. Which is probably why there's a lot of people didn't like her. I still remember a lot of readers were butthurt in the comment section because she kicked Vegeta's ass. Like they really wanted a 8 years old Vegeta to be the king of the saiyins, like it wasn't insulting enough that he made it to the final. Plus it adds an element of unquestioned eugenics to Goku's success now which detracts from his achievements making his power more a product who his parents were than who he was.Goku at his core is someone with a freakish love and aptitude for martial arts, but only got as far as he ever did based on the people and teachers in his life lending their wisdom and aid to allow Goku to climb to a new level after the last. The reason Goku always is one step ahead of Vegeta is not just because of some "natural talent" Vegeta whined about as a Majin, but because Goku knew how to train hard and smart. Knew when to accept help, knew when to rest and not mindlessly torture his body without break. All aspects Vegeta had to learn by the end of the Buu Saga and beyond. Goku being just naturally more privileged than Vegeta with even stronger & cooler parents just to be cheapens who Goku is even beyond the Saiyan Saga. But Goku's success has nothing to do with his parents "genes", it was all thanks to his hard work & the teaching that he got on earth. Goku was only "naturally privileged" compare to the humans but to the saiyans he was worthless! He was even a lot weaker than Raditz who's consider a weak & a disgrace. That's why they send him on earth which was supposed to be weak planet. If Goku was "naturally gifted" like you said then all versions of Goku would have reached SSJ. But that's not the case. Other than the "Gokus" only U13 Kakarotto reach SSJ & it was only thanks to his immortality that he made it this far. U3 Kakarotto didn't reach SSJ & I believe he was still consider weaker than Raditz, & don't let me get started on U1 & U10 Kakarotto. Goku's achievements has nothing to do with his parents "genes" or whatever. It was all thanks to his hard work. I mean, beating Vegeta (The most talented of the Saiyans and the greatest prodigy not named Broly) is worth taking issue with. Even as an 8 year old, Vegeta was considered among the elite of his people, he already showed he was Nappa's superior in command and even descimated the Saibamen (Raditz-tier opponents) for casual training. But having your OC come in to kick its butt just to prove a point of how awesome she is is gonna ruffle some feathers, and to pretend is a non-issue seems to oversimplify the situation. And you are right, Goku's genetics should not tie to his success, but the fact his two parents become the strongest Saiyans of their generation above the elites even seem to clash with this. Realistically, with Hanasia being a thing, in DBM Goku/Kakarot would be much stronger out of the gate than he was. See the likes of Gohan here who was born to the consequentially weaker Chi-Chi but deemed a greater prodigy anyway. The situation is already questionable enough for me to be "tainted" by the situation for the added layer to it.
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 19:45:51 GMT
In hindsight for me I think the character of Goku’s mom could have been removed from Hanasia, who has enough going on with her character to be a separate entity that worked the same way U3 specials went while the character of Goku’s mother could have been someone else and I could have seen story elements that I wanted to see, Hanasia not giving up on her sons, supporting them, and her feeling the caste system is flawed. I don’t think Hanasia is a bad character at all. If she had to be anyone’s mother I just think it would have made more sense for Vegeta’s. King Vegeta mating with the strongest female Saiyan makes more sense story wise, since the Saiyans believe in bloodlines, the king mating with the strongest female to produce a strong heir would fit the story. Vegeta is always proud of his bloodline and a strong belief in his people’s caste system Hanasia being his mother would help further that belief in his mind IMO. But that's the thing. She wasn't born elite (Or at least that's what I think was said about her in the novel). She & Bardock worked their assess to reach the top. So, why would King Vegeta mate with a low class warrior? And since Hanasia does not believe in the system- which was clear in ch.20: Why would her supposedly son Vegeta believe in it? It just wouldn't make sense.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 6, 2021 20:10:37 GMT
In hindsight for me I think the character of Goku’s mom could have been removed from Hanasia, who has enough going on with her character to be a separate entity that worked the same way U3 specials went while the character of Goku’s mother could have been someone else and I could have seen story elements that I wanted to see, Hanasia not giving up on her sons, supporting them, and her feeling the caste system is flawed. I don’t think Hanasia is a bad character at all. If she had to be anyone’s mother I just think it would have made more sense for Vegeta’s. King Vegeta mating with the strongest female Saiyan makes more sense story wise, since the Saiyans believe in bloodlines, the king mating with the strongest female to produce a strong heir would fit the story. Vegeta is always proud of his bloodline and a strong belief in his people’s caste system Hanasia being his mother would help further that belief in his mind IMO. But that's the thing. She wasn't born elite (Or at least that's what I think was said about her in the novel). She & Bardock worked their assess to reach the top. So, why would King Vegeta mate with a low class warrior? And since Hanasia does not believe in the system- which was clear in ch.20: Why would her supposedly son Vegeta believe in it? It just wouldn't make sense. I wasn’t sure if Hanasia was born an elite or not. I think if working on the concept of the character of Hanasia being the strongest Saiyan of the era and she and to be someone’s mom I think it would have made more sense to have her being born an elite Saiyan and make her Vegeta’s mother. I think the idea of Goku’s mother just being an average Saiyan warrior who doesn’t believe in the caste system works better on its own, because than those elements can be focused more on in the story I felt. If Raditz and Goku’s mom was someone else than when we had a scene where Kid Kakarot visits his brother when he comes back we could have gotten their mother too. We could have gotten a scene where the three of them could interact with each other and that would have been a good time to dive into how Kakarot is being trained by his mother and the progress he has. From there we could discuss how the caste system is impacting the newly fledged Saiyan Empire and the merits to it or if it is all just bullshit, which could lead naturally into Broly, who was born with amazing power and talent despite not being from an elite bloodline. With the mother being Hanasia who is the queen of just doesn’t make sense to have her spend time with her sons or focusing on being Raditz and Kakarot’s mother as much. I think an argument of Hanasia being Vegeta’s mother could be made, especially if she won rulership and became the queen and not the queen consort (queen by marriage to the king) as a desire to be seen as the strongest but to make sure Vegeta doesn’t end up like his father who rested on his laurels and stopped going into the field, which allowed for other Saiyans to surpass him and lose the throne. It makes the Hanasia and Vegeta fight more meaningful to the story I think and would be a nice homage to Roshi entering world martial arts tournament as Jackie Chun to be the someone is always better person for Goku so he didn’t become complacent and stagger his development. At least those are just my thoughts on the matter.
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 20:15:35 GMT
I mean, beating Vegeta (The most talented of the Saiyans and the greatest prodigy not named Broly) is worth taking issue with. Even as an 8 year old, Vegeta was considered among the elite of his people, he already showed he was Nappa's superior in command and even descimated the Saibamen (Raditz-tier opponents) for casual training. Yes, He was compare to the other saiyans that are or were in his age. But him being the strongest saiyan at age 8 is ridiculous! Like Saiyan saga Vegeta was as strong as Cui, & it is fair to assume he was stronger than his 8 years old self. And you're telling me that saiyans that is weaker than Cui is the strongest saiyan? Like I said him reaching the final was both laughable & ridiculous. But having your OC come in to kick its butt just to prove a point of how awesome she is is gonna ruffle some feathers, and to pretend is a non-issue seems to oversimplify the situation.No, the fact that Vegeta at age 8 made it to the final & give Hanasia some troubles & was consider the 3rd or the 2nd strongest saiyans (not counting Broly because he's a "cheat") is DBM Broly's level of wanking And you are right, Goku's genetics should not tie to his success, but the fact his two parents become the strongest Saiyans of their generation above the elites even seem to clash with this. Realistically, with Hanasia being a thing, in DBM Goku/Kakarot would be much stronger out of the gate than he was. See the likes of Gohan here who was born to the consequentially weaker Chi-Chi but deemed a greater prodigy anyway. The situation is already questionable enough for me to be "tainted" by the situation for the added layer to it. It doesn't because just like I said U3 Kakarotto achieved nothing & U1 & U10 Kakarotto died & was consider a weakling & a disgrace even by his brother Raditz.
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 20:22:07 GMT
I wasn’t sure if Hanasia was born an elite or not. I think if working on the concept of the character of Hanasia being the strongest Saiyan of the era and she and to be someone’s mom I think it would have made more sense to have her being born an elite Saiyan and make her Vegeta’s mother. I think the idea of Goku’s mother just being an average Saiyan warrior who doesn’t believe in the caste system works better on its own, because than those elements can be focused more on in the story I felt. If Raditz and Goku’s mom was someone else than when we had a scene where Kid Kakarot visits his brother when he comes back we could have gotten their mother too. We could have gotten a scene where the three of them could interact with each other and that would have been a good time to dive into how Kakarot is being trained by his mother and the progress he has. From there we could discuss how the caste system is impacting the newly fledged Saiyan Empire and the merits to it or if it is all just bullshit, which could lead naturally into Broly, who was born with amazing power and talent despite not being from an elite bloodline. With the mother being Hanasia who is the queen of just doesn’t make sense to have her spend time with her sons or focusing on being Raditz and Kakarot’s mother as much. I think an argument of Hanasia being Vegeta’s mother could be made, especially if she won rulership and became the queen and not the queen consort (queen by marriage to the king) as a desire to be seen as the strongest but to make sure Vegeta doesn’t end up like his father who rested on his laurels and stopped going into the field, which allowed for other Saiyans to surpass him and lose the throne. It makes the Hanasia and Vegeta fight more meaningful to the story I think and would be a nice homage to Roshi entering world martial arts tournament as Jackie Chun to be the someone is always better person for Goku so he didn’t become complacent and stagger his development. At least those are just my thoughts on the matter. Let's not forget that only in U3, Hanasia become a queen. In others, she died as an elite but not the strongest one. & it was her what pushed U13 Kakarotto to fulfil his mission.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2021 20:23:20 GMT
I mean, beating Vegeta (The most talented of the Saiyans and the greatest prodigy not named Broly) is worth taking issue with. Even as an 8 year old, Vegeta was considered among the elite of his people, he already showed he was Nappa's superior in command and even descimated the Saibamen (Raditz-tier opponents) for casual training. Yes, He was compare to the other saiyans that are or were in his age. But him being the strongest saiyan at age 8 is ridiculous! Like Saiyan saga Vegeta was as strong as Cui, & it is fair to assume he was stronger than his 8 years old self. And you're telling me that saiyans that is weaker than Cui is the strongest saiyan? Like I said him reaching the final was both laughable & ridiculous. But having your OC come in to kick its butt just to prove a point of how awesome she is is gonna ruffle some feathers, and to pretend is a non-issue seems to oversimplify the situation.No, the fact that Vegeta at age 8 made it to the final & give Hanasia some troubles & was consider the 3rd or the 2nd strongest saiyans (not counting Broly because he's a "cheat") is DBM Broly's level of wanking And you are right, Goku's genetics should not tie to his success, but the fact his two parents become the strongest Saiyans of their generation above the elites even seem to clash with this. Realistically, with Hanasia being a thing, in DBM Goku/Kakarot would be much stronger out of the gate than he was. See the likes of Gohan here who was born to the consequentially weaker Chi-Chi but deemed a greater prodigy anyway. The situation is already questionable enough for me to be "tainted" by the situation for the added layer to it. It doesn't because just like I said U3 Kakarotto achieved nothing & U1 & U10 Kakarotto died & was consider a weakling & a disgrace even by his brother Raditz. I really don't think you understand, to a degree, how weak in General the Saiyans were in the grand scheme of things. As individuals, most of them were irrelevant players. Raditz was considered an example of a low tier (Who were the majority of Saiyans) and Vegeta easily surpassed him as an 8 year old. Killing multiple Saibaman and being already ahead of Nappa who was considered a mid-class warrior. Compared to Cui, one of Frieza's Elites, they really were seen as nothing. Hell compared to Dodoria's random Frieza goons the majority are nothing. It's only the threat of the collective race rising up against him that caused Frieza to take action, not the exploits of a special individual. So yes, an 8 year old Vegeta is meant to be stronger than the bulk of the Saiyans, it is what made him Vegeta (The Planet's)'s greatest prodigy not named Broly. Not really, if anything losing out to Hanasia is the issue here. Vegeta's power and relation to other Saiyans is more or less accurate, and OC coming in to beat and put him "in his place" already shoots Vegeta's story before it can even begin. Why would he even believe in the Class system at all if Hanasia already shattered it? Which doesn't make sense given how strong Bardock and Hanasia were when they had Kakarot. He should've been stronger, as he is actually more privlaged than Vegeta with his parent's genes. And Hanasia makes what any Goku achieves (Even U-16/18) feel more like thanks to her for his "prodigy" skill than his own efforts. It just doesn't need to be so extreme to make her the supreme Saiyan. You can have a Saiyan want to break the Class System and prove people wrong without making her the strongest around before Goku says a word. It doesn't endear me to Hanasia, just makes it feel like a Creator Pet and takes me out of the story.
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Post by عمار on Jun 6, 2021 20:37:21 GMT
I really don't think you understand, to a degree, how weak in General the Saiyans were in the grand scheme of things. As individuals, most of them were irrelevant players. Raditz was considered an example of a low tier (Who were the majority of Saiyans) and Vegeta easily surpassed him as an 8 year old. Killing multiple Saibaman and being already ahead of Nappa who was considered a mid-class warrior. Compared to Cui, one of Frieza's Elites, they really were seen as nothing. It's only the threat of the collective race rising up against him that caused Frieza to take action, not the exploits of a special individual. So yes, an 8 year old Vegeta is meant to be stronger than the bulk of the Saiyans, it is what made him Vegeta (The Planet's)'s greatest prodigy not named Broly. This the first time I hear that the saiyans are as worthless as you describe. If they were this weak then they shouldn't be a problem to Freeza no matter how many they are. Not really, if anything losing out to Hanasia is the issue here. Vegeta's power and relation to other Saiyans is more or less accurate, and OC coming in to beat and put him "in his place" already shoots Vegeta's story before it can even begin. Why would he even believe in the Class system at all if Hanasia already shattered it? Maybe this was the moment were she shattered his believe just like her son did in another universe? Which doesn't make sense given how strong Bardock and Hanasia were when they had Kakarot. Which is why they were consider a "disappointment". He should've been stronger, as he is actually more privlaged than Vegeta with his parent's genes. And Hanasia makes what any Goku achieves (Even U-16/18) feel more like thanks to her for his "prodigy" skill than his own efforts. It just doesn't need to be so extreme to make her the supreme Saiyan. You can have a Saiyan want to break the Class System and prove people wrong without making her the strongest around before Goku says a word. It doesn't endear me to Hanasia, just makes it feel like a Creator Pet and takes me out of the story. ...You know? I think this a discussion that is worth to discuss with Salagir. Write for me a couple of Q's or statements about this subject in the Twitch thread & let's see what Salagir opinion on the matter.
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