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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Mar 26, 2018 2:33:09 GMT
MMMMM!!! YESSSSS!!! FEED MY EGO MORE!!
That attachment name though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 3:40:56 GMT
MMMMM!!! YESSSSS!!! FEED MY EGO MORE!!
LOL....wanker. Don't worry mate, I didn't like all of your posts. Some were literally filler barely worth the space in the fuckbox. MMMMM!!! YESSSSS!!! FEED MY EGO MORE!!
That attachment name though. Aww man, I can't see the name, it just says download/694 edit: apparently it took me over 30 mins to type this post out...
Oh Namikaze even though it ended up being handled rather well, you don't have to defend yourself for having a negative opinion on a plot point that was and as far as I'm concerned still is, bad. I know for a fact I have left the most caustic posts in this thread and they are nothing compared to what other places have to offer and if someone can't handle what we say in here then their opinion isn't worth a pinch of shit to me. Still lowkey salty I wasn't mentioned in the cancerous posts discussion...... Ok on topic. I had to start movin shit minutes after super ended and had no chance to make a proper post and now that I am a day late everyone has pretty much covered everything I think other than I wasn't as impressed as Xeno Black was with the animation but I have nothing negative to say about it either other than the start felt a tad rough but greatly improved. I am over that fucking theme song, can't remember which one it is but I'm over it. Felt like it was on repeat throughout the whole bloody episode and it didn't suit being used as Freeza fought but fuck it, the episode was hype enough that I don't give a shit. I thought I'd don my shiniest set of white armour and defend my fair maiden by officially debunking Axalon 's incorrect claim that Bra was flying around and that naysayers need to brace for the storm. I mean what is she, a week old at this point? I know Pan flew relatively young at what, a month or two old but yea, meh. Speakin of, I would not be surprised if the next DB series focuses on the girls (and maybe Uub), with Trunks and Goten being their "protagonists" well at least at first because no matter how good it will be the masses will demand HIGH OCTANE ACTION and 69xKAMEHAMEHA'S from our overrated MC. The fact DBS' SoL episodes are some of the best imo (I mean DBS actually made me like Satan ffs, my No.1 hated DB character) I reckon they can focus on the kids without needing to have as much EPIC STAKES while still being able to deliver on the action. Let's face it, we can't go from the ToP into something else equally as "epic" straight away can we? That shit gets stale quick smart. It's a shame Freeza is SSB level. Nothin would be funnier than having Goten n Trunks taking Pan and Bra along to watch them sort out Freezas asshatery when he gets out of line. Hmm, I wonder if the next series will actually focus on the PTO for a bit to start things off, I would be ok with this. Anyway, aside from a few niggling details I honestly couldn't have asked/expected Super to have such a fantastic send off. It's been a hell of a ride fellas and couldn't have spent it with a finer bunch of arseholes, err, I mean mostly like minded intellectuals, yea, that.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Mar 26, 2018 3:47:44 GMT
That attachment name though. I'm not gonna lie, when I made it I had a completely different message in mind. When it came time to actually write the message, I completely forgot about it and went with the "feed my ego" thing and didn't bother creating another screenshot or changing the name for it. Honestly didn't think anyone would check you fucker lmfao.
Speaking of which, how did you find the name? Looked through the post and ended up having to look at my screenshots to figure out what you were talking about because I couldn't find it lol.Couldn't see what it was at first, so I had to click on the attachment. Noticed the tab name and here we are. Redo Edit: That last one was a good laugh @thatguy but I still stand by what I said, I'm able to see the attachment name on the tab. Edit 2 bc this shit ain't worth another post. lolz. Different browser? Probably.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 4:07:15 GMT
Couldn't see what it was at first, so I had to click on the attachment. Noticed the tab name and here we are. I just get this.
Edit: The Retro Kakarotto Well obviously you can lmfao. Also the attachment is easier to see since you can click it, no need for the redo :P
The only time I have ever noticed the attachments name is when it isn't "inserted" into the post and defaulted to the bottom of it. I starting using funny and/or less than savory names for my attachments but when I stared 'inserting" them into the posts it only showed download/xxx, leaving me rather dejected. edit: LMFAO!!! Nice catch The Retro Kakarotto. Anything you would like to share with us @thatguy??
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 4:11:50 GMT
The only time I have ever noticed the attachments name is when it isn't "inserted" into the post and defaulted to the bottom of it. I starting using funny and/or less than savory names for my attachments but when I stared 'inserting" them into the posts it only showed download/xxx, leaving me rather dejected. I do it so it's easier to find in my folder. Wasn't aware Firefox or whatever other TRASH BROWSER THAT ISN'T CHROME (CHROME MASTER RACE PUSSIES!) that he's using lets you see file names.
I'm using chrome atm and still can't see it. Please for the love of all that is holy TELL ME WHAT IT SAYZZ. Wait, the name isn't really that dating thing is it? I thought you were just on some seedy love site. edit: on FF now and can see it. I misread your post. Fun fact: You can be logged into the forum on multiple browsers at the same time.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Mar 26, 2018 4:14:44 GMT
The only time I have ever noticed the attachments name is when it isn't "inserted" into the post and defaulted to the bottom of it. I starting using funny and/or less than savory names for my attachments but when I stared 'inserting" them into the posts it only showed download/xxx, leaving me rather dejected. I do it so it's easier to find in my folder. Wasn't aware Firefox or whatever other TRASH BROWSER THAT ISN'T CHROME (CHROME MASTER RACE PUSSIES!) that he's using lets you see file names.
Edit: Wait, it's not what it looks like I swear.
Lmao, like I said, the original plan was to make a relevant joke to the file name, but I lost it and went with the ego thing. Damn Kakarotto, I can't believe you would doxx me like this! D;
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Post by Xeno Black on Mar 27, 2018 4:34:51 GMT
A popular theory is going around that when Android 17 wished to have all erased universes restored, he meant both the destroyed 7 and the previous 6 universe so many years back. Whether this interpretation is correct or not, it would be dope if it was true and we could have the opportunity to see six additional previous gods, angels, kaioshin, and powerful warriors on deck. It will ultimately add more to the lore that Super is trying to create. But now that the hype is over and my logical mind has once again resurfaced, why is Zeno so happy and dead set on seeing this specific wish made? Has he forgotten that he himself has destroyed six previous universes on a tantrum and not once decided to bring them back? Or the fact Future Zeno erased uncountable number of good lives over the simple fact of Zamasu being a punk ass? And by uncountable I mean the entire multiverse, Grand Priest, afterlife and all. It kinda weird and contrived how both Zeno's sense of morality works. You want mortals to evolve and change by stop being selfish, yet fail to realize your own fallacies. Contradiction at its finest folks. Now that I think about it, if Whis ability to resurrect dead people can be abused, this could allow the z-fighters to have another unfair advantage over everyone per Beerus acceptance. For example if Goku dies, Whis can bring him back just like that. Or if Goku wants to fight against Broly or Cell in Hell, he could have them resurrected to see if they can survive against his SSJB powers. Makes you wonder what else Whis can do. I think he is shy away from being able to grant immortality or resurrect multiple people simultaneously at this rate. I think the thing we're missing here is context. Exactly WHY did he wipe out those previous 6 universes? He threw a tantrum, yes, but what caused it? Did someone take his pudding a la Beerus? Did someone actually try to attack him? Were those 6 universes plotting to overthrow him? Had all 6 universes lost their way and each created their own genocidal Zamasus trying to wipe out all mortal existence? I doubt they'll explore this lore they set up so I doubt we'll ever know because it isn't Goku-related. As for Whis, Goku doesn't actually need him to fight people in Hell. He's able to visit Hell just fine as shown when he stopped by to recruit Frieza. I'm just hoping Cell is also there and hasn't been reincarnated, though given that Toriyama (I think it was Toriyama?) didn't like drawing Cell because of his complicated design I'm pretty sure, sadly, that the Perfect Being is no more. You bring up good points man, but it still doesn't excuse Future Zeno's blatant disregard of creation in the future (Future Bulma, Gohan, GOKU!?!, pride troopers, etc) and the fact that both Zeno's have stated that there are "too many" universes in existence. While that last part can be interpreted in many ways, the context it was placed in makes one believe that there just shouldn't be this many people alive in the multiverse. One's actions and both statements makes me question them. I mean seriously if the time machine was not in place, virtually the strongest in the entire z-fighters, Bulma, Gowasu, Shin, Future Trunks, and Future Mai would have been erased along with Zamasu and literally everyone else. Future Zeno most likely would forever swim in the glittery vacuum full of ashes before using some unforeseen power to create new life...I think. Back in the regular timeline Beerus would immediately die from a heart attack and Whis goes asleep as everyone mourns the lost of their best heroes. A sad fate that was close to becoming realized. Would you still think the same about Future Zeno then? I sure wouldn't. I wonder if our boy trapped in the Dead Zone is still alive in the dead future timeline? Maybe HE becomes infected by Zamasu's will to one day assert his Zero Mortal's Plan with the power of two immoralities! Hehe I am a genius when it comes to crack theories. Wizard master indeed in this game son. True for not needing Whis's help to fight people in Hell, but that was probably a weak example on my part. Lets say that Goku or Co. kills somebody, but instead of fighting them in Hell where their powers are either restrained or they themselves are imprisoned, Goku wishes to see them alive so that they have the chance to properly grow and advance in abilities. So upon visiting in Hell, Goku realizes that Broly can become much stronger in life since his LSSJ powers makes him far more powerful by just existing. In death he lost that mutated attribute. Now imagine if he trains? The chance for such a foe would be insane to pass up on in Goku's mind if presented the chance. Same is applied to anyone that Goku wants back such as Dende (if unable to use Porunga, Super Shenron, or even Ultimate Shenron). Or the fact Goku himself wants to come back to life after dying in a unfair fight. The possibilities are truly endless for this series now. Side Idea: You know, why hasn't the idea that the Z-Fighters gather the super dragon balls to resurrect the deceased future timeline ever occurred to them? It would have been much better plot-wise than sending Future Trunks and Mai to a identical but alternative timeline. Future Bulma and Gohan could return along with the added interest of seeing a differently evolved Goku and Vegeta. Would be kinda nice to see SSJ4 Future Goku and Vegeta battling against SSJB Goku and Vegeta in a duel.
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Post by Axalon on Mar 28, 2018 2:15:32 GMT
You bring up good points man, but it still doesn't excuse Future Zeno's blatant disregard of creation in the future (Future Bulma, Gohan, GOKU!?!, pride troopers, etc) and the fact that both Zeno's have stated that there are "too many" universes in existence. Debatable now, given that the entire ToP was intended to see how selfish or not the mortals could be. If say Frieza had made the wish he would've doomed the multiverse, but the Zen-Ohs had no problem whatsoever at having the universes restored despite the fact that there were "too many". If we're getting really technical about it if the time machine wasn't in place Trunks would eventually either get killed by or deactivate the Androids and then subsequently get killed by Cell, who would then suck up the rest of humanity with no androids to absorb and no time machine to go back and get them, Zamasu would thus never happen since Goku died long ago and would never meet him, meaning he never gets triggered by SS2 Goku kicking his ass and thus continues to serve tea to Gowasu and watching Godtube. ...Goku really does attract evil, doesn't he? Goku already has someone stronger than him to spar with, Vegeta. If he needs someone evil to fight, Frieza's out there as well, albeit weaker than Goku but that's only because Frieza just needs another 4 months to train to catch up again. Gohan has for now decided to maintain his training, Hit still has a contract out to kill him and is still quite capable of doing so despite being outclassed by Goku, and then of course Jiren himself isn't averse to fighting Goku again either. That's not even counting being a punching bag for Beerus or getting trained by Whis or any other potential fighters out there in the universe. GoD Toppo would give Goku a good fight as well. Maybe it's just me, and I think that Super should focus on the newer stuff introduced and not retread old foes. Because they stopped caring about Future Trunks right about the time Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro stopped caring to include him in the plot. ...That and SS4 Goku/Vegeta would get mauled by SSG Goku singlehandedly.
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Post by Jason9000 on Mar 28, 2018 3:39:06 GMT
Okay here are my thoughts on the final episode. I'll separate them in bold.
The Good:
-The animation was quite good this week. Golden Frieza look great as always. I feel like the animation department realized they needed to make Frieza look as pretty as possible so the fans wouldn't be pissed that he's back for the third time throughout the ToP. Although I feel like they sometimes make things too bright. Like the glow from 17 and Frieza trying to hold Jiren's attack back with the Ki shield. The edges of the shot hurt my eyes, but that could just be me. -Frieza mocking and taunting Jiren was just awesome. I found it hilarious that Frieza was saying his sense of justice was beyond stupid and that he would gladly finish what the 'evil doer' did to Jiren all those years ago. Then Frieza got his tail stomped on and some of it cut off I think. Frieza really needs to learn to mock people WHILE they're dying so they don't get up and beat the tar out of him again. -Android 17 winning the tournament. Seriously I know we got a hint that someone unexpected would win the tournament a while back. But, I expected the likes of Frieza or even Jiren to win the tournament and just end on a cliffhanger till the movie or when Super starts up again after the movie. His character has come quite far since we saw him and his future counterpart back in Dragon Ball Z. I went from seeing him as just a 'meh' character that had one great fight with Piccolo before Cell showed up to greatly liking him. -Champa grumbling about not thanking Beerus. I liked that small callback to the U6 arc. -Also enjoyed Super Shenron. Although he looked way smaller than in the past. Was this an artistic choice or just to save time and animation so they don't have to repeat getting the massive galaxy sized dragon and then entering his nucleus? -Jiren's character development with Toppo was great as well. Jiren finally opening up to his fellow pride troopers is great. Learning to trust them is going to help them protect their Universe than Jiren just flying from place to the next. Now they can shoulder the burden without Jiren going "It's my burden to bare alone, to be the strongest. So no one else has to. Ugh I'm so edgy." Now we have Jiren going from Batman when he first started his career where he didn't trust anyone, to Batman founding the Justice League and accepting that he needs help every now and then. All we need is to find out the name of Jiren's butler.......
The Bad:
-I'm starting to think the people at Toei do not understand what it means when someone runs out of stamina. Goku was in worse shape than when he went Kaio Ken times 10 against Hit as he spat up 'blood' from the stress of Ultra Instinct and was on the ground. Yet he got up and and somehow had the strength to help Frieza and 17 shield themselves from Jiren's attack. Then went Super Saiyan, granted it was for like a second or two before grabbing onto Jiren and trying to force him off the arena. Since his first battle with Jiren, he's been exhausted and back to full strength all in the span of twenty minutes. I get that it's fictional, but none of the Saiyans have ever shown this ability before hand where fighting alone makes them stronger before Goku Black showed up in the anime. The only exception I can think of is when Goku first became a Super Saiyan and as I've said in the past I still call bullshit on that as well. Where was this stamina recovering ability when Goku fought Cell, Majin Vegeta, Fat Buu, or Kid Buu? If someone has a scan where the Saiyans get stronger by just fighting alone and not through Zenkais, please show me. I feel lost the more I think about it. -The freaking Zeno's going "Oh we were going to erase everything so it'd be an empty nothingness like what happened in the future timeline if anyone didn't wish all of the Universes back." ................That really angered me, the whole tournament was just a 'test' to see if Zamasu was right all along? Seriously? This is ridiculous, Future Zeno erased an entire timeline without a second thought and was lucky Goku came back for him. Otherwise he'd floating in the weird white space for eternity until he finally erased himself to end his boredom. What was the point of introducing the 'mortal level' system if they were going to nuke everything anyway if someone made a wish they didn't agree with? This is why I hate god characters in fiction as they act all superior to mortals and tend to be the biggest hypocrites out there. It's one of the reasons why I despise the Greek gods as they kept backstabbing each other and throwing tantrums and punishing mortals over the dumbest things. Zeno is literally the Greek gods, but in a modern setting. -As said earlier by other people the ending shot of Goku and Vegeta looked stiff. Like it was just a still of their stances just put over a flat rocky scenery. I guess they had to spend all of the budget on the first half of the episode. -Finally we seriously didn't get to see Android 17's family? Why couldn't they add them in the shot of Seveteen talking to Bulma at the end, thanking her for the cruise? It's like Super wants to add character backstory to old characters, but stumbles at the very end and just falls short.
The Questions:
-Whis can revive people now? Can he only revive people one at at time or can he mass revive people as well? Now Dragon Ball has even less consequences as we have three sets of Dragon Balls and Whis to bring people back from the dead. Do the other angles also have this ability? If they do, then what can't these angels do? Because now it seems like they're the Silver Age Superman where they just get powers and abilities on the fly based on the episode writer's wishes. -So if the Super Dragon Balls can override Zeno's erasing powers.......why was Fused Zamasu erased? Was it because he wasn't full immortal anymore and became a bunch of laughing clouds? Hell some of him escaped through Goku Black's time rift into the present. Why didn't he just hide out in the present timeline at some corner of the Universe? If this happens in the manga this'll make it even more confusing as I don't think Zamasu lost his immortality and began splitting himself into multiple copies. Why didn't Zamsu try to wish for Zeno's powers? Or switch his soul with Zeno's. This makes Skar's parody even more awesome, yet makes Super even more confusing. At this point why doesn't any of the Supreme Kais or gods of destruction use the balls to get rid of Zeno since they really are limitless and can override Zeno's powers. I'm getting more confused by this. -Did Vegeta also lose his 'bluer' form or whatever it's called as well? Because on the one I saw he asked Goku why he doesn't go Ultra Instinct and Goku responded that he can't seem to trigger it at will. I'm sorry I thought the white haired version of it was supposed to be the 'mastered version'. It can't be 'Mastered Ultra Instinct' if he can't enter the form at will. They should have just kept the original look of it and kept the white haired form down the road after training with it and really mastering it. Does this mean Goku and Vegeta still aren't at Beerus' level since they lost their new forms? -Will Ultra Instinct return for the movie? -Why would Beerus let Frieza run around enslaving and destroying planets when he was told that his Universe was second from the bottom? I don't know why he order Whis to revive Frieza if he's going to continue the PTO. I thought there were only 29 planets with habitable life? Letting Frieza run around doing what he wants is detrimental to Beerus. Or is that going to be retconned down the road? Not to mention why don't Goku and Vegeta stop Frieza asap? They're seriously going to let a mass genocidal loan shark loose? I thought they were good guys. Any chance Beerus can hire Jiren or Hit?
Final Thoughts: I greatly enjoyed this episode and thought it was pretty good despite the things I mentioned above. I just wish the fighting had finished last episode and this was a full wrap up. But they did a good job with what they have. Now I'm just going to wait patiently for the movie. Can't wait to see it eventually.
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Post by Kirasha on Mar 28, 2018 4:40:24 GMT
You know...I see people still bringing up the stamina issue but....when was this new to Dragon Ball at all? Does no one remember how Vegeta kept tanking through everything in the Saiyan Saga? From taking a full hit from a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha to a Spirit Bomb and he still kept going until he was finally crushed by giant naked monkey. Or both Vegeta and Goku during the end of the Buu Saga, at the very brink of their powers, still kept fighting Kid Buu? Vegeta could barely fight anymore yet he was still going on, buying time for Goku to get that Spirit Bomb done. Heck even in Super it has happened before, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks have all been pretty broken down by Zamasu and yet they still were capable of going full power despite struggling to even stand moments before.
Honestly, it's nothing new really, it's just made more blatantly obvious in Super by constantly referring to it, but it's nothing we've not seen before.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Mar 28, 2018 4:48:48 GMT
You know...I see people still bringing up the stamina issue but....when was this new to Dragon Ball at all? Does no one remember how Vegeta kept tanking through everything in the Saiyan Saga? From taking a full hit from a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha to a Spirit Bomb and he still kept going until he was finally crushed by giant naked monkey. Or both Vegeta and Goku during the end of the Buu Saga, at the very brink of their powers, still kept fighting Kid Buu? Vegeta could barely fight anymore yet he was still going on, buying time for Goku to get that Spirit Bomb done. Heck even in Super it has happened before, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks have all been pretty broken down by Zamasu and yet they still were capable of going full power despite struggling to even stand moments before. Honestly, it's nothing new really, it's just made more blatantly obvious in Super by constantly referring to it, but it's nothing we've not seen before. Like you mentioned, it's the magnitude and non-chalance what is bothering. One could dismiss someone complaining about 0ºC (freezing temperature) being too cold as mere bitching, provided it's within the range where he lives. But someone complaining about -30ºC, where if you pee it will freeze immediately, is totally understandable. Super (both Anime and Manga) have this issue where they randomly turn off their transformations when they receive a hard punch, but on seconds later they power up again. In DBZ you needed to be really beaten hard into near unconsciousness before you powered down. Of course, it would have been out of the question to power up again after such beating. If you get knocked out of your transformations you're basically done, not getting up again (unless senzus). This is an issue that always bothered me, specially during Zamasu saga. They explicitly stated in manga that transforming into SSJBlue alone damages your fuse (and this was used to rationalize in the plot itself why Vegeta was so beaten against Hit) but in the Zamasu saga they appear transforming back and forth, knocked out the SSJBLUE and going back. And not only that but Vegeta transformed multiple times to "optimize" it in combination with SSJred. Yes, we can say that SSJRed is some sort of buffer that lessens the strain between going from base to the max transformation. But this is us fans filling the gaps and not the franchise itself stating it. Notwithstanding that every shock-cushioning effect it could have, would be negated by the fact he had to transform up to 50-100 times (depending on how many times you consider Goku Black got punched by Vegeta that time). Complaining about this does indeed have a valid point, which can't be merely dismissed with saying "it happened in Z too". It never happened to this same shameless extent in the first place. Goku had to be away in a liquid pod during the Namek saga. Once he was broken by Ozaru Vegeta he was basically done. He was almost immobilized the whole fight afterwards. He also did not recover in the infamous situation he donated his Senzu bean to Cell. It does not bother me that much personally, only the shamelessness and laziness going about it, to the point they are not even trying to depict it tangibly. Jiren recovering (part) of his stamina to make a last final stand, by Toppo cheering him and finally forming a bond with his comrades was decent for me. This was the only time this happened to him. This is an entirely excusable and even anticipated plot device. What happened with Goku during the whole tournament of power was not ok. Go all out against Jiren, get blasted the fuck up. Freeza barely saves you. Go fight Kaleifla by showcasing all your forms (even the so called draining and unstable SSJ3) and then access your "godly forms as well". Get beaten the fuck up again. Get "ui omen" again. You're tired again. You comment your stamina issues. A short time passes, some crazy robots appear and they fuse into a third rate Hatchiyack. You access your god forms again and you beat it with your friends. After this, you go to fight Jiren in SSJBLUE KAIOKEN again (despite you've been drained of your stamina twice). Get beaten to near death again. Get ultra instinct again. This time Jiren adapted and managed to start beating it somehow. Get the full ultra instinct. Beat the shit out of Jiren. Lose it again, together with anal bleeding supposed to represent severe internal damage. Stand up once more again, in your base form, managing to somehow even the odds against a big-fuck blast Jiren did as a last stand, which A17 (SSJBlue level, infinite stamina) and Freeza (also near SSJBlue level) could not stop. This is fucking 7 times (or so, I may be having a slight miscalculation) of recovering your stamina after explicitly stating you've had all of it, and I am not even taking into account he never fucking stopped fighting (with included use and abuse of taxing forms) the whole time!.Yeah, I think nothing can convince me those two cases are comparable.
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Post by Son Pan on Mar 28, 2018 14:54:21 GMT
You know...I see people still bringing up the stamina issue but....when was this new to Dragon Ball at all? Does no one remember how Vegeta kept tanking through everything in the Saiyan Saga? From taking a full hit from a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha to a Spirit Bomb and he still kept going until he was finally crushed by giant naked monkey. Or both Vegeta and Goku during the end of the Buu Saga, at the very brink of their powers, still kept fighting Kid Buu? Vegeta could barely fight anymore yet he was still going on, buying time for Goku to get that Spirit Bomb done. Heck even in Super it has happened before, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks have all been pretty broken down by Zamasu and yet they still were capable of going full power despite struggling to even stand moments before. Honestly, it's nothing new really, it's just made more blatantly obvious in Super by constantly referring to it, but it's nothing we've not seen before. I actually think those moments prove the stamina and injury issues are worse in Super and not the same. Those instances you mentioned showed us the effects of long battles and heavy injuries chip away at all the fighters involved and how much and impacted them. Nappa alone was much stronger than every Z-fighter at the time except for Goku and Vegeta was much stronger than Goku who needed to over his original Kaioken limit to exceed Vegeta. All the damage Vegeta took from Goku was not only mentioned, but even exploited by Krillin and Gohan to fight an enemy that much stronger than themselves at the time. They were banking on Goku having weakened Vegeta enough for them to stand a chance. Both Goku and Vegeat even mention how their moves took their tool on them. Kaioken times 3 overworking both Goku’s body and ki. Rewatch the fight Goku mentions even though he is hammering Vegeta that he is taking a lot of damage himself. Goku even tells Yajirobe after he blasted Vegeta away with Kaioken/Kamehamaha combo that he pushed his body too far and in relation to Vegeta he was in worse shape (though not out of power). He needed to use Spirit Bomb to win rather rely on Kaioken. Vegeta’s artificial moon took a big amount of his ki that Goku took note of it. Those things carried over. Goku exhausted most of his remaining ki creating a Spirit Bomb and was injuried beyond being able to move a muscle. Vegeta is weak enoug that Gohan can get a few clean hits on him that surprised Vegeta. The weakened Spirit Bomb did so much damage that Vegeta was limping and his huge ki attack couldn’t even kill weakened Goku, Krillin, and Gohan to show while he was still standing that he was still feeling the effects of the battle. If anything Vegeta’s HP was so ridiculously high that even being low still made him strong enough to keep fighting against the heroes who were much weaker than him until Great Gohan fell on him and crushed his body (Vegeta even mentioned he didn’t have the energy to move out of the way). Everyone was either out of ki, or it was very low, and their bodies to damaged to move. It wasn’t really anyone ignoring loss of stamina or ki, but that we saw the effects of those things play out in the fight, especially in relation to Goku and Vegeta. It is probably one of the few times this is heavily mentioned in DB and plays a big part in the battle. Even the Buu arc you mentioned mattered. Goku couldn’t turn SS1 again until the dragon restored him. Vegeta took heavy hits and kept going, but it is not like he ingored them and was fine. He mostly kept moving, but it was taking his toll on him. There wasn’t ever really a point where he was completely out of ki and recovered without being healed. I don’t even think Vegeta transformed into a basic Super Saiyan when he had to fight Kid Buu a third time until Goku finished his Spirit Bomb. Stamina issue was around in Z era, but I don’t think the examples you chose highlighted that, but did the opposite and showed it did have a bigger cost in Z than Super.
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Post by Archon on Mar 28, 2018 18:56:23 GMT
You know...I see people still bringing up the stamina issue but....when was this new to Dragon Ball at all? Does no one remember how Vegeta kept tanking through everything in the Saiyan Saga? From taking a full hit from a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha to a Spirit Bomb and he still kept going until he was finally crushed by giant naked monkey. Or both Vegeta and Goku during the end of the Buu Saga, at the very brink of their powers, still kept fighting Kid Buu? Vegeta could barely fight anymore yet he was still going on, buying time for Goku to get that Spirit Bomb done. Heck even in Super it has happened before, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks have all been pretty broken down by Zamasu and yet they still were capable of going full power despite struggling to even stand moments before. Honestly, it's nothing new really, it's just made more blatantly obvious in Super by constantly referring to it, but it's nothing we've not seen before. Like you mentioned, it's the magnitude and non-chalance what is bothering. One could dismiss someone complaining about 0ºC (freezing temperature) being too cold as mere bitching, provided it's within the range where he lives. But someone complaining about -30ºC, where if you pee it will freeze immediately, is totally understandable. Super (both Anime and Manga) have this issue where they randomly turn off their transformations when they receive a hard punch, but on seconds later they power up again. In DBZ you needed to be really beaten hard into near unconsciousness before you powered down. Of course, it would have been out of the question to power up again after such beating. If you get knocked out of your transformations you're basically done, not getting up again (unless senzus). This is an issue that always bothered me, specially during Zamasu saga. They explicitly stated in manga that transforming into SSJBlue alone damages your fuse (and this was used to rationalize in the plot itself why Vegeta was so beaten against Hit) but in the Zamasu saga they appear transforming back and forth, knocked out the SSJBLUE and going back. And not only that but Vegeta transformed multiple times to "optimize" it in combination with SSJred. Yes, we can say that SSJRed is some sort of buffer that lessens the strain between going from base to the max transformation. But this is us fans filling the gaps and not the franchise itself stating it. Notwithstanding that every shock-cushioning effect it could have, would be negated by the fact he had to transform up to 50-100 times (depending on how many times you consider Goku Black got punched by Vegeta that time). Complaining about this does indeed have a valid point, which can't be merely dismissed with saying "it happened in Z too". It never happened to this same shameless extent in the first place. Goku had to be away in a liquid pod during the Namek saga. Once he was broken by Ozaru Vegeta he was basically done. He was almost immobilized the whole fight afterwards. He also did not recover in the infamous situation he donated his Senzu bean to Cell. It does not bother me that much personally, only the shamelessness and laziness going about it, to the point they are not even trying to depict it tangibly. Jiren recovering (part) of his stamina to make a last final stand, by Toppo cheering him and finally forming a bond with his comrades was decent for me. What happened with Goku during the whole tournament of power was not ok. Go all out against Jiren, get blasted the fuck up. Freeza barely saves you. Go fight Kaleifla by showcasing all your forms (even the so called draining and unstable SSJ3) and then access your "godly forms as well". Get beaten the fuck up again. Get "ui omen" again. You're tired again. You comment your stamina issues. A short time passes, some crazy robots appear and they fuse into a third rate Hatchiyack. You access your god forms again and you beat it with your friends. After this, you go to fight Jiren in SSJBLUE KAIOKEN again (despite you've been drained of your stamina twice). Get beaten to near death again. Get ultra instinct again. This time Jiren adapted and managed to start beating it somehow. Get the full ultra instinct. Beat the shit out of Jiren. Lose it again, together with anal bleeding supposed to represent severe internal damage. Stand up once more again, in your base form, managing to somehow even the odds against a big-fuck blast Jiren did as a last stand, which A17 (SSJBlue level, infinite stamina) and Freeza (also near SSJBlue level) could not stop. Yeah, I think nothing can convince me those two cases are comparable. Don’t forget how long they drew out the scenes where Jiren was beating the snot out of Goku. It was ludicrous. Almost 5 minutes of just kicking a dead horse and then all of a sudden “UI HURR DURR” I cant think of a single instance in DBZ where it was THIS pronounced. Goku got beat down hard against the Cell Jrs and against Kid Buu. Sure he got back up and could fight but he didn’t get up and go all out full power and annihilate them. He needed an energy refresh from Shenron for Kid Buu. It really does seem to be the failings of a series that needs to keep going bigger and badder to be better. Sometimes that just doesn’t work. And with all the retcons and poor writing throughout the whole thing it just compounds the issue.
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Post by Axalon on Mar 28, 2018 23:11:11 GMT
-The freaking Zeno's going "Oh we were going to erase everything so it'd be an empty nothingness like what happened in the future timeline if anyone didn't wish all of the Universes back." ................That really angered me, the whole tournament was just a 'test' to see if Zamasu was right all along? Seriously? This is ridiculous, Future Zeno erased an entire timeline without a second thought and was lucky Goku came back for him. That timeline was done though. I feel that in the manga Zen-Oh definitely overracted since it's just a bunch of Merged Zamasu clones who couldn't even do anything without the time machine, but the anime made the erasure much more justifiable given that he'd somehow begun fusing with the universe itself and was reaching into different timelines altogether. THAT is something you get the Omni-King to fix immediately. Zamasu had become a threat to literally time and space itself, unlike the manga. Immortality means you can't die. Zen-Oh's erase functions more like a game developer just deleting his presence from the game files, as opposed to being killed by in-game systems that deplete Zamasu's health bar. Zen-Oh doesn't deplete your health bar with a big ki attack or anything, he just erases you from the game. Super Shenron just restored all the deleted files. We don't know. I'd assume he didn't, but maybe they'll make it function in a similar fashion and he can only access it under duress. This would be incredibly lame, but possible. Possibly if the new antagonist pushes Goku hard enough, or if Goku has trained more since then offscreen and can access UI at will. Otherwise probably not. Frieza was always detrimental to Beerus/Shin and they both don't seem to care about it. So him going back to the status quo is likely nothing to them and Beerus gets to sleep more and Shin can continue doing nothing, so it's a win-win for everyone except U7 as a whole. Beerus can smugly note that his method produces some of the greatest fighters in the multiverse and then doze off for another year. Yes, Goku and Vegeta are seemingly going to just let Frieza do whatever the hell he wants so long as he leaves Earth alone. Hit probably wouldn't mind at all at being hired to assassinate Frieza, and Jiren would probably do it just to crush Frieza for the lulz, but I doubt they'd ever be contacted for such a thing. Because plot.
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Post by Archon on Mar 29, 2018 4:58:01 GMT
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Mar 29, 2018 5:34:47 GMT
(From the wiki) So how do we abridge this name? SS Blue Evolution? SS Bluevolution? SS Evolbluetion? ... I'm keeping that last one.
Looks like the blasted "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" title was never really leaving us, just waiting to make a comeback. Why not just mimic Z's original naming and stick with "Ascended Super Saiyan Blue?" Makes it unique to Vegeta's style of naming the forms. Jeez, I really wish we stopped at Super Saiyan God. Would've saved everyone the trouble.
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Post by Xeno Black on Mar 29, 2018 6:51:01 GMT
Axalon: True that it is debatable, but one cannot deny the fact that Zeno is a living contradiction. Says one thing but does the complete opposite is not a good quality to have, especially a good god-king in comic world. From now on we can never take his words at face value and must constantly interpret them to see which one is actually the correct one. Also why erase everyone over a simple selfish wish? Did said winner not deserve his prize when everything said before allows this wish to be? Is it truly morally right to kill everyone in universe 7 if 17 literally wished for a yacht? Baby Pan, Bra, children, elderly, mentally handicapped, sick, and other innocents are all erased on the spot just because of the actions of one guy and his wish? People who had nothing to do with this yet get victimized all the same. Such childish simplicity over handling complicated matters dealing with billions of lives is not how a omni-king should do things. Especially at the last second you suddenly have this standard of not accepting selfish desires and magically stated that the entire tournament was to test mortals. Zeno is the very epitome of a hypocrite since he fails to realize his own fallacies or live by his own words. If it comes down to it just erase the winner, not the entire universe as a whole over some failed test. Zeno has a long way to go in maturing since he actually thinks like this. Goku definitely attracts evil all over the world. Poor guy. But no need to get technical since the time machine does more good than bad. If history ran its course than all life on Earth would have been destroyed by the androids. A sad fate no matter how you try to justify it. The heroes story will just continue in Otherworld, though Vegeta being locked in Hell is a real possibility. And without the z-fighters who would stop Majin Buu in universe 7 if resurrected? And for the canon movies what about Broly or Hirudegarn (if resurrected too)? If anything, the time rings are to be blamed far more than the time machine itself. They are the reasons why Goku Black was birthed and maintained in the present as Future Zamasu attains immortality and destroys Super Shenron. And as for Imperfect Cell, what is to stop him from trying to venture to New Namek somehow and achieve powers from Porunga? With three wishes, I can see immortality, resurrection of both androids (Porunga should be upgraded by this point), and their immediate transport to his location being his ideal choices. And as the perfect android, we all know what Cell would do next, right? Virtually unchallenged, Cell will systematically wipe out all life in universe 7 until Beerus wakes up. But it might be too late, especially if Shin intervenes and gets killed. And if Zeno does gets notified, it might not make a difference since mostly everyone is already deceased. Now Cell's lack of instant transmission will hamper him, but I am confident Cell will find a alternative method of transportation akin to his counterpart in Bringer of Death. And to make matters worse... Training. If Frieza can become stronger than SSJB Goku starting from his namek level days within four months, what do you think will happen to Cell if he undergoes the same thing? Now why he would train is up in the air, but Mr. Perfect Cell in addition to the potential of Golden Frieza and SSJB Goku and Vegeta cells would create a absolute beast of a monster. Zamasu will have nothing on Cell as the bio-android slowly but surely works his way up the food chain. And if this ideal scenario carries on with Cell learning about the Super Dragon Balls as well, god help us all. Truth be told Future Bulma creating the time machine might have spared her timeline from a much more darker reality. Unfortunately thanks to Xenoverse, this scenario might have became true to a certain capacity. Those examples were all hypothetical scenarios to show just how broken Dragon Ball has become. On a whim these scenario's can happen if Goku prays for them, pun intended. Whis's newfound hack ability can be abused just as badly as the dragon balls, thus making death even more trivial with no lasting consequences. So many options exist now to get out of death is simply mind boggling. To give another example, Hit successfully kills Goku, but Whis brings him back to life since Beerus needs a saiyan warrior to fight some baddies in his stead. This right here can make Hit's mission of truly killing off Goku nigh impossible, and the fool is not even immortal. But I agree with the trend of focusing on newer foes than the old ones. But again for clarification reasons, all of those examples are there to showcase how broken Whis is and his ability to further strength the Z Gang. Need Frieza back alive? I got you! You want to see what it like for Broly to take a dump in a living body? Boy I am your man for this job! You want Dende back alive after he fell to his death staring at faraway boobs? Shit I am on it son! The list goes on and on and on..... Sounds plausible lamentably. At least give the man a happy ending in his original timeline. But still, seeing Future Goku and Vegeta using a different line of transformations against the present versions still sounds badass, regardless of the power differences. Fans and Xenoverse 2 players have wondered since 2013 which line is better, so what better way to prove it than having it happen in the actual anime. Plus Future Goku and Vegeta having their spotlights on them would be neat since they did absolutely nothing in the original storyline besides dying to a heart virus or by Android 17. Plus seeing SSJ4 Vegeta's reaction that Android 17 saved the entire universe would mess with his mind severely since 17 not only killed him, but destroyed more than half of the Earth's population. Little scenes like this makes me wish all the more this came true. And to give the future counterparts a little more cred, they have at least 20 years of unique training in Otherworld. The chances of acquiring unique techniques, strategies, and upgrades (higher SSJ4 tiers, SSJ5?!?) is plausible. I mean Future Goku somehow combining kaioken, god ki (if achieved), and the ultra instinct technique (not the form) to SSJ4 could give him a major edge if done correctly. Granted the present counterparts have every means of winning, but a Goku and Vegeta will never go down without putting up some kind of resistance, even against themselves.
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Post by Axalon on Mar 29, 2018 13:16:13 GMT
True that it is debatable, but one cannot deny the fact that Zeno is a living contradiction. Says one thing but does the complete opposite is not a good quality to have, especially a good god-king in comic world. From now on we can never take his words at face value and must constantly interpret them to see which one is actually the correct one. Also why erase everyone over a simple selfish wish? Did said winner not deserve his prize when everything said before allows this wish to be? Is it truly morally right to kill everyone in universe 7 if 17 literally wished for a yacht? Baby Pan, Bra, children, elderly, mentally handicapped, sick, and other innocents are all erased on the spot just because of the actions of one guy and his wish? People who had nothing to do with this yet get victimized all the same. Such childish simplicity over handling complicated matters dealing with billions of lives is not how a omni-king should do things. Especially at the last second you suddenly have this standard of not accepting selfish desires and magically stated that the entire tournament was to test mortals. Zeno is the very epitome of a hypocrite since he fails to realize his own fallacies or live by his own words. If it comes down to it just erase the winner, not the entire universe as a whole over some failed test. Zeno has a long way to go in maturing since he actually thinks like this. I chalk this up to more Blue and Orange Morality. It isn't Black and White in the sense we view it. The winner of the tournament is being granted a gift to literally do ANYTHING, so much like Zamasu became a threat to literally time and space itself, the potential exists that the winner could've also selfishly wished for something similar, like the popular fan theory that Frieza would win and wish to rule the multiverse over everyone. In a sense...yes. But in other ways no. It does more good for the current timeline, but for the timeline it actually originated from it ended up in utter annihilation. If the time machine never existed there'd just be 27 planets with life on them as opposed to the current 28. Beerus most likely since Shin wouldn't have anyone else to turn to. Though realistically Beerus SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE BEEN HIS FIRST CHOICE, NOT GOHAN.Broly and Hirudegarn aren't canon. In fact, I think the only canon movie was Bardock - Father of Goku, but Toriyama retconned even that with that stupid Dragon Ball Minus crap. I think Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return! might also be canon, but I'd need to rewatch the BoG part of DBS again since I can't recall if Tarble was referenced in the movie or the anime. If it was referenced in the movie only, this means there are literally zero canon DBZ movies now. No, that's the fault of the time machine. The rings made it worse, but the core of the issue stems from the machine. If Trunks had never gone back there'd never be a Goku who visits Zamasu, kicks his ass, and forever triggers his fragile Kai mind to murder all the mortals. We know this because when Black visits Future Zamasu he's still contentedly serving tea to Gowasu before he too gets corrupted (granted it wasn't a big push) and joins the Zero Mortal Plan. No Goku means Gowasu doesn't watch Goku vs Hit on Godtube, meaning Zamasu never knows anything about Saiyans. It's all the time machine. Lack of a spaceship probably. Lack of knowing where New Namek even is would be another obstacle. Probably doesn't even have a DB radar either, so if the Namekians even hide one he'd never summon Porunga even if he could find a ship and get there, since the only person shown to actually FLY from one planet to another is freaking Jiren of all people. Even if he got there I highly doubt he'd know Namekian to summon Porunga in the first place, on top of all the other things. I love Perfect Cell, but he's not gonna train. We know this because he literally stood in one spot for a week straight for the Cell Games instead of also preparing for it as the Z Fighters did. He has too much of Vegeta and Frieza's combined ego to do that just off the bat. If Goku had made the Goku Games you can bet he'd train up until the day of the tournament, but Cell did not, despite having Goku's genes. Now Cell after his defeat would have such motivation and the potential, but in this scenario he wouldn't have any fighters to push him that far unless Babadi shows up with Dabura in tow, though if that happened it's likely that at most Cell would get Majinned, resist it similar to Vegeta, and then get murdered by Buu. Nonsense! Hit was contracted to kill Goku in this scenario and he did! Not just a "quick" death like in the anime but an actual death with no resuscitation. The fact that divine intervention happened later simply means that Goku is around again, not that Hit failed in his contract. I highly doubt their GT future counterparts would have god ki or UI since they'd need access to Whis training them (Vegeta) or at the very least get the SSG ritual going (Goku) to kickstart them into god ki. Higher Super Saiyan forms I think are the best thing they might have, or at the very least a more stable SS3.
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Post by Archon on Mar 29, 2018 15:45:44 GMT
(From the wiki) So how do we abridge this name? SS Blue Evolution? SS Bluevolution? SS Evolbluetion? ... I'm keeping that last one.
Looks like the blasted "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" title was never really leaving us, just waiting to make a comeback. Why not just mimic Z's original naming and stick with "Ascended Super Saiyan Blue?" Makes it unique to Vegeta's style of naming the forms. Jeez, I really wish we stopped at Super Saiyan God. Would've saved everyone the trouble. Am I to understand that because it is from the wiki it is incorrect? Shinka means evolution. Also Japanese Digimon digivolution scenes “Shinka” “Chou Shinka” “warp Shinka” etc
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Post by Axalon on Mar 29, 2018 20:47:19 GMT
EDIT: Now with video!
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