Axalon:
Good point. It is simply different compared to human understanding. Still ugly since it appears barbaric, backwards, emotional, illogical, and insensitive on many scales to our eyes, but hey Zeno answers to no one.
As much as I hate to admit it, but it seems like this is the case. DB Wikia, Xenoverse (mainly Chronoa), most of the fandom in Youtube, and others agree on this. I still cannot personally fault Trunks, Bulma, or the usage of the time machine since it was used for noble purposes. Without it Dr. Gero will likely win with the whole Z-Fighters dead and gone, with Trunks MAYBE getting a break and achieving victory. And if he does somehow come out on top, the threat of Cell from a sudden ambush nearly guarantees the end of Earth's warriors at any timelines starting point, since Cell's timeline is the original version (unless you subscribe to the DBZ's logic that another Trunks comes to kill that version of Frieza and Cold, which is something I don't like). This is a sad fate for the Earth, and would make dragon ball end on a dark and tragic note with adventures only happening in Otherworld forever more. No matter what it is a lose/lose situation for the future timeline. Either have the Androids/Cell win, or have Zamasu run amok with Zeno destroying the whole multiverse and afterlife. The time machine is in fact the underlying variable, but I cannot help but blame Dr. Gero and Zamasu that resulted in Zeno to undergo such drastic measures, as melodramatic the erasure was. Especially Gero, the man that inspired Future Bulma to create the time machine in the first place. If his creations never showed up, the time machine might have never happened which would roll down to Zamasu's craziness.
True.
Honestly this question alone is what took me so long to reply back to you. I was doing some research thanks to Mangastream. Down below I will answer in full detail on how I perceive this question, so stay tuned for that.
After doing some research, I begrudgingly agree now. The time machine did started it all, though Gero is the variable that gave birth to the machines development. Seriously Gero, the androids, Cell, Zamasu, and Zeno are just as guilty in many ways for this timelines entire destruction, but Trunks and Bulma also had a hand in it too, as noble their reasons were to travel back in time. Then again if it wasn't for Shin opening his fat mouth or the usage of Godtube, Zaamsu would be in the dark about Goku's entire being. I will explain more down below....
Cloud Zamasu was a threat indeed to the space and time continuum, but I cannot knock off Multi Zamasu either. If allowed to run his course, Fused Zamasu in the manga is not only intelligent and retains his powers, but can use universe 12's time machine at his whim. In effect with the time ring and plausible more uses of Super Shenron, he could become a greater force to be reckoned with that might even become a true threat to Beerus down the line. And in addition with immortality, only the sealing powers of Beerus or someone else greater could stop him. But since there is
so many of him now, akin to Meta-Cooler, he can perform many tasks as the original Black and Future Zamasu variants grow stronger by god knows what. Since he is a permanent Super Saiyan Rose, perhaps he will figure out Goku's usage of kaioken or take the Vegeta path to achieve Rose Evolution. Or just simply sustain his aura inside to have Mastered Rose. And if by some divine circumstances he achieves Ultra Instinct on top of his buffs, Multi Zamasu could theoretically wipe out all life throughout most timeline's multiverses besides the absolute strongest. He will still lose to Zeno, but at that point he could be everywhere, thus making Zeno destroying everything in the entire omniverse (my name for all timeline's multiverse's interacting with each other). So yeah the potential of Multi Zamasu is in fact greater than Cloud Zamasu's threats by far in my eyes because of his clout and retained smarts.
Cloud Zamasu however was a psychotic maniac with little to no sanity left. Even with all of that power I doubt he could control it all since his mind is basically gone. Another Kid Buu in a sense, which makes him unappealing in my eyes nowadays. I love sophisticated villains dammit lol. Zen Buu FTW!!!!!
Agree, but the possibility is there.
Glad you agree with me on this.
Sadly that his only way, less he dies himself in the meantime.
Unlikely, yes, but not impossible either. In real life if I met you and told you eight years ago that not only Angels exist in Dragon Ball that can resurrect the dead, but Frieza can become immeasurably stronger than Buuhan by training in four months, would you believe me? Otherworld is a vast place with both the ancients, primordial's, and vastly powered but deceased foes
living inside its borders. Future Goku and Vegeta is bound to meet someone like them and gain something significant as a result. And if Otherworld allows a universe combatant to travel to another universe's Otherworld, the likes of a deceased Jiren or Hit might show up and challenge our heroes in a contest of strength. And this is not counting deceased gods of destruction as well. For instance the moment Shin died, Future Goku and Vegeta meets Future Beerus and train with him in a special location inside of Otherworld. Granted we do not
exactly know what happens to a destroyer upon death, but if we can use Shin and Elder Kai as a example, the possibility of them going to Otherworld upon death is very likely instead of simply just ceasing to exist.
Side question - In the manga when Shin dies in Future Trunks timeline, where does he go? Both present Shin and Gowasu go to the Sacred World of the Kai's to shelter Trunks and Mai, yet he is nowhere to be found. Strange...
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Deep Analytical Period~
Okay so for the longest the main question that has been bugging me about the entire Future Arc was this:
How did such a confrontation happen in the Black's original timeline, and why? After the Universe 6 tournament, it should be highly unlikely such a scenario ever takes place. To be fair I will give you my interpretation how this event likely went down, but in the manga's continuity since I am doing more research on the anime's version. The anime counterpart will be released some time in the future, but no release date is made for that post yet.
Also as a heads up I will be using MangaStream's translations since the official provider, Viz Media, I have yet to acquire access to on the internet. The Viz Media site doesn't work for me and I am not sure if Funimation provides scans that I can view in perfect detail. So since I am using MangaStream, copies will be posted on this post, but I have noticed in the past they magically disappear at times. So be beware they will be in spoilers with the appropriate chapter number and page attached in case they disappear once again for reference reasoning.
Plus the page numbers may be slightly off a a number or two. MangaStream is known for changing their chapters based on fanart at the beginning and end, so please bare with me.
With all of that being said, in the manga it is true that Goku and Present day Zamasu has never fought. Instead Present Zamasu only fights Kibito, Barbarians, and dies against Beerus. So Goku only fights against Future Zamasu, twice actually, followed by Fused Zamasu in multiple single instances. Fighting interactions with Goku Black also never occur, so the main timeline in universe 7 lacks the action this gif above shows.
And the manga proves it -
Chapter 18, Page 25But what about in Black's timeline, the main question you've already clearly stated?
Well to be fair I wanted to say that to avoid any confusion about which timeline Zamasu I am referring to and what actually goes down in the manga.
Okay so in the main timeline post the Universe 6 tournament, most likely in Black's original world events carried out exactly how they did in the main timeline. Goku, hot from befriending Zeno with both Vegeta, Monaka, and Hit getting their shine on, have dispersed back to their own worlds. And as for Universe 7, Goku and Vegeta are sparring against each other in Capsule Corp as Beerus and Whis dine near each other. How much time that exactly past between the tournament to now is unknown.
Chapter 14, Page 19:And nothing is out of the ordinary besides the interesting point for plot convenience that Trunks is learning about time travel antics from a private teacher. And thanks to the events of the Golden Frieza arc, Whis for good reason can no longer perform his temporal do-over ability, less he risks throwing the time stream axis off.
Chapter 14, Page 24:Eventually Goku and Vegeta take a lunch break as Jaco leaves the scene. Jaco is thus gone for the rest of the entire arc.
Chapter 14, Page 29:Goku and Vegeta eventually resume their training as Beerus comments on their sparring. And then another lunch break commences.
Chapter 15, Page 16:Chapter 15, Page 17:Now in the main timeline, Future Trunks appears just when the second lunch break gets underway.
Since we are talking about Black's original timeline, it s safe to say that the lunch goes uninterrupted before Goku once again spars with Vegeta.
Chapter 15, Page 18:And thanks to no Future Trunks intervention, Goku does not go to Korin's to get any senzu beans, train with Future Trunks briefly, seeing the time machine getting refueled for a whole day, deal with Goku Black's antics, and much more. Beerus, likely still watching Goku spar against Vegeta, simply chills instead of worrying about Zamasu or any funny future business. Same is applied to Vegeta.
Here where the real changes begin, minus the lack of Future Trunks of course.Now for some weird reason, both Shin and Kibito for unknown reasons travel to the Sacred World of the Kai's in Universe 10. Zamasu, the recent supreme kai apprentice, battles and defeats Kibito in fair combat.
Chapter 16, Page 29:Chapter 16, Page 34:Believed by Shin to be able to defeat any current supreme kai, Kibito praises Zamasu's capabilities though Gowasu is concerned with his strict mindset. While talking about the Majin Buu epidemic, Shin states Goku's name, which marks the first time ever Zamasu ever hears his name. Unable to believe the news, Zamasu slightly shows off his disdain for mortals in front of the three kais, which prompts Gowasu to teach him inner self control the moment the universe 7 kais left.
Chapter 16, Page 35:Chapter 16, Page 36:Chapter 16, Page 37:Chapter 16, Page 38:Zamasu then goes to planet Babari, and becomes disgusted by the mortals. But here is where he learns about the time rings.
Chapter 16, Page 39:Chapter 16, Page 40:Chapter 16, Page 41:After getting a thorough presentation of the time ring, becoming a temporary supreme kai, and learning about potara fusion, Zamasu sees both the present day and future Babari. Zamasu, sick of it all, becomes hardened with his extremist beliefs and vows to change the ways of the world.
[Note]: Interesting four parallel rings exist besides the actual time ring. And as far as we know, the main timeline, Future Trunks, Cell, and the unknown timeline Future Trunks from Cell's timeline all that exist. Yet a unknown human from universe 12 also went back in time, which means there should be a extra parallel ring in the set, unless the real time ring represents that world. Weird time travel antics all over again.
Chapter 17, Page 8:Chapter 17, Page 9:Chapter 17, Page 10:Chapter 17, Page 14:Chapter 17, Page 19:Chapter 17, Page 20:Chapter 17, Page 21:Back in his own quarters, Zamasu watches Godtube and witnesses the fight between Goku and Hit. Having typed in "Son Goku", Zamasu becomes amazed that not only Zeno appeared, but said mortals caught the attention of even gods of destruction. Witnessing Monaka's easy victory against Hit, Zamasu learns of the Super Dragon Balls and the ability to grant any wish. His resolve becomes a vow as his heart darkens even further.
Chapter 17, Page 30:Chapter 17, Page 31:Chapter 17, Page 32:Back in universe 7 for the next morning, most likely Goku is training against Vegeta instead of Vegeta training with Future Trunks like in the main timeline. Beerus probably stayed behind to watch them again. Not being aware of Zamasu, Beerus did not call Shin to question him about any suspicious kai's, but Whis most likely will still get a call from the Grand Priest for Zeno to have a audience with Goku. Most likely this occurs in Black's timeline. And since Shin most likely will not be there, it will take Goku, Whis, and Beerus two whole days to get to the Palace of Zeno, much to Goku's chagrin.
Chapter 17, Page 37:Chapter 17, Page 38:Chapter 17, Page 39:After meeting both the Grand Priest and Zeno (with Goku possibly promising him a friend or straight up play with him via Black's non-involvement), Goku probably talked about the Tournament of Powers creation before likely receiving the Zeno button. Goku then departs with Beerus and Whis, likely right back to Earth.
Chapter 17, Page 42:Chapter 18, Page 5:Zamasu however is in universe 7, speaking to Zuno on not only being able to use and gather the super dragon balls, but if it is possible to switch bodies with a mortal. With his plan ready, Zamasu embarks on his "Zero Mortals Plan" at full swing.
Chapter 18, Page 12Chapter 18, Page 13As for the heroes, somehow Kibito catches wind from a unknown supreme kai that Zamasu has sought after Zuno for specific information about the Super Dragon Balls. Most likely in Black's timeline Kibito solely tells it to Shin on the Sacred World of the Kai's, and informs him of Zaamsu's apparent questioning of the mortal named Son Goku. So in my headcanon, it is possible that instead of Shin going over to universe 10 by himself to deal with this, he passes the information to Goku at capsule corp. Intrigued by these revelations, Goku along with Beerus and Whis travel to Gowasu's planet to question him themselves.
Chapter 18, Page 18:Chapter 18, Page 19:Chapter 18, Page 20:And upon arrival, Zamasu would likely already be back depending how fast Shin delivers the news to Goku and beerus. Now since Goku is there along with the fact Shin won't use the time ring to see his future or Whis having no proof that Zamasu will even kill Gowasu (thus using his now forbidden time reversal), Zamasu would likely be able to lie through Beerus questions as he fights and loses against Goku. Gowasu will end the match and universe 7 will likely depart since nothing of outstanding suspicion can be made of Zamasu since he made no true crimes. But having first hand witnessing Goku's powers (and possibly seeing Blue based on Black's knowledge of the form), he becomes determined to have that body no matter what.
Chapter 19, Page 21:Thus when the time comes, Zamasu assassinates Gowasu, gathers the super dragon balls, and makes the wish to switch bodies with Goku. The first part of his plan has been achieved, including the fact he also has the potara earrings and the time ring.
Chapter 18, Page 24:
Upon becoming "Goku Black", Zamasu subsequently kills Goku while he was trapped in his original body. Everything beyond this as Black is left unsaid, but most likely just like in the anime he kills both Goten and Chi-Chi while possibly leaving the likes of Gohan, Piccolo, and Vegeta alive. Not wanting to stir the wrath of Beerus, Zamasu leaves via time ring to bring his plan to new heights.
Chapter 19, Page 4As "Goku Black", apparently Zamasu went through several timelines via Time Ring in the hopes of finding a future with a dead Beerus. Apparently he not only found him troublesome, but perhaps he feared his power since Zamasu has yet to master Goku's own body.
Chapter 16, Page 18:Chapter 16, Page 19:Being "Goku Black" for some time, eventually he wiped out whole civilizations in Trunks timeline before setting his sights on the Earth. It is likely the mortal killings happened across the entire multiverse, not just exclusively in universe 7. And despite Trunks being able to hold back Black for a whole year, most human beings are dead and gone by that point in time. Also he managed to kill all supreme kais in the other 11 universes, thus indirectly killing the destroyers and making the angels become inert, which leaves only insanely strong mortals (Hit, Jiren, etc), Grand Priest, and Zeno left to stop him in said timeline.
Chapter 15, Page 27:Chapter 16, Page 24:Chapter 16, Page 28:And during the year long heist, Black was known for letting Trunks live in the vain hope of testing his powers out on him.
Chapter 18, Page 23:Zamasu eventually finds and kills Future Bulma off-screen, though the anime adaptation shows it.
Chapter 14, Page 15:And after surviving his latest encounter with Black, Trunks brutally realizes that Zamasu has learned the ability to sense ki now. Why he didn't have this before is honestly quite weird.
Chapter 14, Page 26:And soon they have their fated match that results in Future Mai at not only nearly dying, but Trunks escaping in a time machine.
Chapter 14, Page 42:Chapter 15, Page 3:Chapter 15, Page 9:Chapter 25, Page 11:Chapter 15, Page 15:And despite wishing to kill Trunks this time around and being superior in base compared to Trunks being in SSJ2 (who equivalent to SSJ3 Goku), Black simply accepts things the way they are, albeit confused. But regaining his bearings, he flies away to presumably receive another zenkai from Future Zamasu.
Chapter 16, Page 25:
And after some time passes, he senses a new group of power levels, which officially starts off Blacks meeting with the heroes from the past.
Chapter 18, Page 32:Thus the story of Black's original storyline comes full circle via time travel.
Now I could go on further, but I have making this post for over 7 hours. Enough is enough. Even my perfectionist ways cannot handle it anymore. But with everything said, it is likely that in the manga Zamasu in Black's original time did fought and I did my best to make it flow based on details shown in the manga. Perhaps the anime went down the same path, though I need to study up on that. But it is also true that in Black's timeline they might have never fought at all. Godtube and word of mouth from both Shin and Zuno persuaded Zamasu to steal Goku's body. There is evidence to support that too begrudgingly. Plus a famous gag page from volume 3 is the strongest piece of evidence, though it was in the "extra's" column which makes its validity debatable.
So I guess the answer can be either or, but I will come back with a few days to finish up with the analysis based on said manga material. I need some sleep lol.
Ashanark said:
SO fucking true!!!!!!!