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Post by Son Pan on Oct 5, 2017 2:40:32 GMT
Since the manga is speeding things up to get the tournament going sooner I think it will just be simpler to say everyone has been training of screen all this time, especially Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Roshi, and Tien. It easy to write around by saying when Freeza attacked they all thought it was a good idea to train again just in case. I'm curious to see how the manga handles Goku's behavior with the whole universe gets erased if they lose aspect. I remember a lot of people were upset by how nonchalant about it. Goku in DBS manga seems even less empathetic toward people. I fear Goku will be even worse here and that Dragon Ball might actually turn its main character into one of the most hated characters in the franchise.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 5, 2017 2:49:19 GMT
Since the manga is speeding things up to get the tournament going sooner I think it will just be simpler to say everyone has been training of screen all this time, especially Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Roshi, and Tien. It easy to write around by saying when Freeza attacked they all thought it was a good idea to train again just in case. I'm curious to see how the manga handles Goku's behavior with the whole universe gets erased if they lose aspect. I remember a lot of people were upset by how nonchalant about it. Goku in DBS manga seems even less empathetic toward people. I fear Goku will be even worse here and that Dragon Ball might actually turn its main character into one of the most hated characters in the franchise. It is actually quite the contrary. From the very beginning of the previous episode, Goku has been carrying less of the blame on the shoulders. It is even implied Beerus (of all people) has some guilt due to his U6vs.U7 tournament (which caused Goku to meet Zeno, which incidentally, brings us to the next point). The fact that had it not been for Goku, all participating 8 universes would have been erased on the spot, is being made even more obvious in the manga. In fact, Goku still doesn't even know the universes are going to be erased. This "everybody thinks Goku is evil" thing does not exist in the manga, in fact U7 is disliked more because of Beerus than because of Goku. The Goku = Last chance of survival thing is really a very blatant plot point in the previous manga chapter, unlike in the Anime.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 5, 2017 2:55:34 GMT
Since the manga is speeding things up to get the tournament going sooner I think it will just be simpler to say everyone has been training of screen all this time, especially Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Roshi, and Tien. It easy to write around by saying when Freeza attacked they all thought it was a good idea to train again just in case. I'm curious to see how the manga handles Goku's behavior with the whole universe gets erased if they lose aspect. I remember a lot of people were upset by how nonchalant about it. Goku in DBS manga seems even less empathetic toward people. I fear Goku will be even worse here and that Dragon Ball might actually turn its main character into one of the most hated characters in the franchise. It is actually quite the contrary. From the very beginning of the previous episode, Goku has been carrying less of the blame on the shoulders. It is even implied Beerus (of all people) has some guilt due to his U6vs.U7 tournament (which caused Goku to meet Zeno, which incidentally, brings us to the next point). The fact that had it not been for Goku, all participating 8 universes would have been erased on the spot, is being made even more obvious in the manga. In fact, Goku still doesn't even know the universes are going to be erased. This "everybody thinks Goku is evil" thing does not exist in the manga, in fact U7 is disliked more because of Beerus than because of Goku. The Goku = Last chance of survival thing is really a very blatant plot point in the previous manga chapter, unlike in the Anime. I was thinking more of the lines of during the tournament and Goku gathering people. Like if he downplays how if they lose U7 gets destroyed or him being callous to the warriors he defeats. I seeing people complain how Goku fucks around in the tournament at times and seems kind of uncaring over the fact that if they lose U7 is bye-bye, especially after the episode where Gohan eliminated the last warrior in U10 and people seemed to respond positively for Gohan showing sorrow over having to beat him to save U7 and take shots at how Goku is fucking around. I have only seen a few episodes every now and again, so I could be very off here. I'm not a fan of this uncaring Goku we sometimes get. I mean I get being unheroic, but sometimes he seems uncaring.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 12, 2017 0:33:24 GMT
Since the manga is speeding things up to get the tournament going sooner I think it will just be simpler to say everyone has been training of screen all this time, especially Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Roshi, and Tien. It easy to write around by saying when Freeza attacked they all thought it was a good idea to train again just in case. I'm curious to see how the manga handles Goku's behavior with the whole universe gets erased if they lose aspect. I remember a lot of people were upset by how nonchalant about it. Goku in DBS manga seems even less empathetic toward people. I fear Goku will be even worse here and that Dragon Ball might actually turn its main character into one of the most hated characters in the franchise. Manga Goku does feel a bit less empathetic at times. When Gohan couldn't go to the U6 vs U7 tournament for a job interview or something I recall Goku almost cursing at him (still let him go, just the reaction) compared to anime Goku just taking it in stride.
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Post by Namikaze on Oct 20, 2017 6:00:33 GMT
Here's a link to the raw version of Chapter 29 for any that are curious. Things to note: - Belmod can levitate and entrap others in balls of Ki; kind of like what Frieza did to Goku back at Namek - Liquir can shoot Ki blasts out of his NINE tails - Helles can conjure up bow & arrows; apparently are strong enough to effortlessly pierce through even Liquir's skin - Rumoosh is a tank! - Beerus and Quitela are the last two standing - Belmod appears to be faking being down and out (He even refuses Marcarita's help in the next panel) - Goku goes on to fight Toppo like the Preliminary rounds in the Anime (likely ordered by the GP) - Toppo tanks every form Goku throws at him (including SS3 which makes a neat cameo!)
I'm really liking how different the manga is turning out compared to the anime - it's almost like a retelling if that makes sense. I particularly like how chaotic the entire GoD fight was, which makes sense given that they likely go for centuries without any challengers or any means to really show off their strength. This is also the most we've ever really seen Beerus hurt. It's quite unsettling if I'll be honest. Toppo also seems much stronger here seeing as how he seemingly managed to knock SSB Goku with just a kick! O h man if he's this strong just imagine how Buddha based Grey Alien is gonna be!? But seriously, it just ended there so there's obviously more to it. Overall, looks pretty great!
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 20, 2017 6:57:14 GMT
Now, this still hasn't been translated yet, so I may have missed something. But it looks like since U9 wasn't at the exhibition match, Goku being a heartless sociopath who laughs at multiversal xenocide was an anime-only thing! Yay!
-- Belmod was faking being hurt--he didn't have a scratch on him--which implies he's the strongest GoD. And Toppo beat SSB Goku. And Jiren is supposed to be stronger than both Belmod and Toppo. Uh-oh.
-- Beerus is given tons of cred in the manga: he and Jerry were the last ones standing, which means Beerus is either one of the stronger GoDs or else one of the sneakiest. Either is a good thing! It's also nice to see some actual payoff on the rivalry the cat has with the rat--I don't think the anime has focused on that.
-- I wish I knew what Whis and his short-haired bro were talking about.
-- Toppo's more menacing and less corny. And there's the fact he flat-out kicked Goku in the nads.
-- How is it all these GoDs look like crappy fanfic characters in the anime, but actual Dragon Ball characters in the manga? Toyotaro is such a great artist.
-- Goku losing to Toppo sure ramps up the stakes for the tournament, since Toppo isn't even the strongest of his universe!
-- Lastly, I also like how Goku worked his way up from Super Saiyan to SSB, testing Toppo. If nothing else, it shows that Toyotaro at least remembers the different forms and that he's got a more concrete idea of power levels than the anime, which tends to just slap Goku into SSB and call it good regardless of who he's fighting (like Krillin or 17.)
Again, the manga continues to be far superior to the anime, in my opinion, and an enjoyable read.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 20, 2017 17:34:30 GMT
-- Toppo's more menacing and less corny. And there's the fact he flat-out kicked Goku in the nads. -- How is it all these GoDs look like crappy fanfic characters in the anime, but actual Dragon Ball characters in the manga? Toyotaro is such a great artist. -- Goku losing to Toppo sure ramps up the stakes for the tournament, since Toppo isn't even the strongest of his universe! -- Lastly, I also like how Goku worked his way up from Super Saiyan to SSB, testing Toppo. If nothing else, it shows that Toyotaro at least remembers the different forms and that he's got a more concrete idea of power levels than the anime, which tends to just slap Goku into SSB and call it good regardless of who he's fighting (like Krillin or 17.) Again, the manga continues to be far superior to the anime, in my opinion, and an enjoyable read. Wait a minute, wasn't Toppo the original "cloaked" figure from the preview and the accidental spoilers made the Anime change to "Jiren the new hyped warrior?" I had a question about this somewhere else regarding whether Toyotaro was planning on accommodating this change and introducing Jiren as the Big Brute, or if he's planning to keep Toppo as the original "Mysterious warrior" as the outline should have been before the mixup?
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Post by Kirasha on Oct 20, 2017 21:07:53 GMT
-- Toppo's more menacing and less corny. And there's the fact he flat-out kicked Goku in the nads. -- How is it all these GoDs look like crappy fanfic characters in the anime, but actual Dragon Ball characters in the manga? Toyotaro is such a great artist. -- Goku losing to Toppo sure ramps up the stakes for the tournament, since Toppo isn't even the strongest of his universe! -- Lastly, I also like how Goku worked his way up from Super Saiyan to SSB, testing Toppo. If nothing else, it shows that Toyotaro at least remembers the different forms and that he's got a more concrete idea of power levels than the anime, which tends to just slap Goku into SSB and call it good regardless of who he's fighting (like Krillin or 17.) Again, the manga continues to be far superior to the anime, in my opinion, and an enjoyable read. Wait a minute, wasn't Toppo the original "cloaked" figure from the preview and the accidental spoilers made the Anime change to "Jiren the new hyped warrior?" I had a question about this somewhere else regarding whether Toyotaro was planning on accommodating this change and introducing Jiren as the Big Brute, or if he's planning to keep Toppo as the original "Mysterious warrior" as the outline should have been before the mixup? Other way around actually, the cloaked figure was originally Jiren, as hinted by the brief shot of half a face which was gray, then the actual episode went about and changed it into Toppo instead.
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Post by Kirasha on Oct 21, 2017 10:30:36 GMT
Welp, I've read the latest translated manga chapter.
The fight between the Gods continue as Belmod attacks them all with a lethal move, from there on out the battle grows more and more intense, God vs God at their peak of powers. Alas, it is all too much for the two Zenos and they consider that due to how intense the battle is, and that they cannot see anything because of it, that this is thus boring. Grand Priest halts the fight, few Gods remain standing, we see several Gods laying down, though two in particular that are standing are Beerus and Quitella. The Grand Priests claims that all the Gods are disqualified from entering the tournament.
The Zenos consider trashing the tournament and just blowing the universes up as intended, Goku however hears only two words apparently, no tournament, and thus pleads with the Zenos to continue with the tournament, claiming that the fights in the actual tournament wont be like that because most mortals don't match up to Gods (Goku got a good realization he's still far off from beating a God). The Zenos wish to see Goku fight, Goku says he can't match up to a God but it's pointed out that Toppo is a mortal as well.
Grand Priest plays down the rules that will eventually be the actual tournament rules, no flying, no weapons, no killing, etc. Toppo and Goku face off, Goku starting out in SSJ1 as usual. Future Zeno is surprised by the transformation, Present Zeno explains Goku has several transformations, but when asked how many, he has difficulty recounting them. The Grand Priest asks Whis how many transformations Goku has, tho which Whis replies that there are five in total. The Zenos wish to see them all, so Whis tells Goku to showcase all the transformations during the fight.
Goku pops SSJ2 but the Zenos seem unimpressed, questioning if there is any difference (feels like a jab to how Toriyama forgot SSJ2 was a thing), Beerus yells out to Goku to go into SSJ3 which he does. The Zenos are pleased, Goku's face is "scary" now in their words. The fight continues but Toppo still has the clear upperhand in the fight and isn't all too impressed if tis is all U7 has to offer. Goku pulls out SSJ God and similarly to the anime, the Gods are shocked by the feeling of a mortal having God Ki. Toppo comments he needs to respond to this in kind and boosts up as well, the fight briefly continues before Goku pulls out Blue and readies a similar attack he used against Zamasu (though vs Zamasu, he tried to Hakai him), Toppo responds in kind by kicking Goku in the nads and out of the ring.
Goku has lost and is impressed by Toppo's strength, Toppo himself comments he was not too sure if he would have one, had Goku not dropped his guard. Toppo also comments how he is only the second strongest in their universe, and explains that Jiren is stronger than Belmod himself.
I liked this chapter, I like how it is a stark contrast against the anime which was making Goku look like more of a villain. Toppo has more respect for Goku in the manga, and the universal destruction fact hasn't really been made all that aware as no one seemed to react when the two Zenos talked about trashing the tournament and just destroy the universes, and Goku seems to only have heard the part about trashing the tournament. This means that the blame has not been shifted on Goku at all like it has in the anime.
However, I do have to point out an apparent mistake. The anime had Whis say that there exist a mortal stronger than a God, and that the God from the universe where this mortal resides, beat Beerus in an armwrestling match. It is pretty obvious in the anime that Jiren is the mortal spoken about, but that would suggest that Beerus lost from Belmod. In the manga however, it's shown that Beerus lost from Quitella, and Jiren is flatout stated to be the mortal stronger than a God. I mean, I know the manga and anime have their differences, but they work from the same general storyline, so who made the mistake here then? The anime for implying Beerus lost to Belmod, or the manga claiming that Beerus lost to Quitella. It's a bit weird honestly.
I do like that several of the Gods that were beaten down, were from the universes that are exempt from the tournament, implying that though they have the best universes, they aren't also the strongest Gods out there.
EDIT: I do have to note that, when Goku pulls SSJ God, Toppo boosts up too, I do not know if this implies he has God Ki, or if he has something else. Similarly to U9, Goku would not sense Toppo's ki.
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Post by Symbiotic on Oct 21, 2017 11:10:06 GMT
The fight between the Gods continue as Belmod attacks them all with a lethal move, from there on out the battle grows more and more intense, God vs God at their peak of powers. Alas, it is all too much for the two Zenos and they consider that due to how intense the battle is, and that they cannot see anything because of it, that this is thus boring. Grand Priest halts the fight, few Gods remain standing, we see several Gods laying down, though two in particular that are standing are Beerus and Quitella. The Grand Priests claims that all the Gods are disqualified from entering the tournament. Ah, so the Zenos aren't all powerful after all. If GoDs are too fast for them to see, then I can't imagine they'd handle an angellic rebellion well at all. Xeno Black might have a chance to say I told you so at the end of all this.
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Post by Kirasha on Oct 21, 2017 12:35:22 GMT
Ah, so the Zenos aren't all powerful after all. If GoDs are too fast for them to see, then I can't imagine they'd handle an angellic rebellion well at all. Xeno Black might have a chance to say I told you so at the end of all this. Well, I think it was more so due to it being chaotic, there was a lot of dust clouds going on, and with 12 Gods in a battle royale...it can get pretty disorientating. I don't think this is a sign of that they aren't that powerful, cause they are, why else would the GoDs fear them after all? Personally I think the "Angel rebellion" is hogwash and wont happen, but that's me.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 21, 2017 13:17:14 GMT
VIZ translationIt's nice to see the GoDs fight, rather than just stand around shocked.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 21, 2017 15:15:58 GMT
I still think that it's more for the convenience of the Zen-Ohs than anything else. To borrow something from the anime: Now imagine you're at a movie and every 1-2 seconds the screen teleports to a different wall and you're trying your best to keep your eyes on the screen. You're constantly shifting your head to the point where you're lucky if you even comprehend half of what's going on because you're too busy just trying to keep up with the screen moving. Cool action scenes? Significant plot points? Those might get lost in the constant shuffle. Bringing this back to the manga, the GoDs were zipping around everywhere and kicking up one hell of a dust storm (thus making things even more difficult to see), which soured the Zen-Ohs on the whole experience. Not only do they have to try and keep track of a bunch of fighters flying around in random directions, but now there's clouds of dust in the way too! Since the GP only limited flight specifically (among other things like no killing, etc), this confined the action to the perimeters of the ring itself. So our analogical movie screen is now stationary. No need to be turning around in your seat every 4 seconds. If it were an issue of people literally moving too fast for them to see he would've told Goku something like how he could only fight at a certain speed or something on top of not flying, since we've all seen how lesser fighters can't even comprehend stronger ones fighting in the past. TL;DR: Zen-Ohs got bored because they couldn't see all the cool action all at once. No-flying rule gets implemented. On another note... Zen-Oh #1: I don't get it. Zen-Oh #2: So what do we do then? Zen-Oh #1: Meh. Let's just destroy the unnecessary universes. Grand Priest: Oh, so we're going to cancel the tournament? *Goku selectively hears only the tournament cancelling and only tries to intervene then*Goku: Nuuuuuu, don't cancel muh fighting!! Just...goddammit Goku. I get Toriyama's intentions towards your character but come on.
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Post by Kirasha on Oct 21, 2017 16:00:58 GMT
I'm starting to believe that the Zenos talked a bit hush hush, murmuring among each other, though when the Grand Priest spoke up, his voice was more normal, hence why Goku only caught on the "Muh tournament" part of it all.
I believe this because, only Goku reacted, no one else reacted to the Zenos talking about universal destruction and we know from the anime's exhibition match how much of a shock that was to everyone. It would be odd that the GoD's take such news lightly in the manga. So it must be that the Zenos simply did not speak loudly enough for anyone other than the Grand Priest to hear what they were talking about.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 21, 2017 16:10:46 GMT
That's certainly possible. But then again I don't put anything past DBS Goku these days.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 21, 2017 17:13:01 GMT
The criticism toward Manga Goku being less empathetic and equally idiotic as the anime are pure non-sense. Manga Goku doesn't even know the universes are being crapped yet, and the Manga is actually going out of its way to make a point Goku is unknowingly giving a chance to one more universe to survive.
There is no "LOLING @ mass genocide Goku" in the Manga. Even Toppo was really respectful and talked really courteously towards Goku. By the way, Toppo also seems like a far more serious, grounded person in the Manga too! No cringey poses, no justis shit, no "EVIL SON GOKU!!!".
As for the GoD Battle, pretty good. I think it more or less sells us the idea GoDs are all kinda in the same level. I also observed some things: -Beerus and Quitela were the last ones standing due to pure luck -Belmod may possibly be the weakest god. True, he was not harmed at all at the end, yet he was out of the fight playing possum since Liquir released his tail attack, while everyone was crapping the shit out of each other. -Jin lamentably, and sadly, is the only character who seems less interesting in the manga. He's not the cold, über strong, über intelligent bad-ass as the anime.
I really hope Belmod is truly the weakest with a difference for narrative purposes. I truly do not want Jiren to be stronger than most of the GoDs, which would be a reality if Belmod were to be at a close level to the others.
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Post by Kirasha on Oct 21, 2017 17:33:11 GMT
That's certainly possible. But then again I don't put anything past DBS Goku these days. Oh absolutely, but in this case, due to lack of reaction of everyone else, I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 21, 2017 17:55:16 GMT
Sorry to double-post, but the translation brings up a few more things: -- Jiren is stronger than Belmod "in combat skill alone." The distinction's important. I hope we get confirmation on if GoDs have any special abilities that make them a threat regardless of PL. -- Toppo assumes Goku's a GoD-in-training, implying Toppo himself is one. So why is Jiren not there if Toppo is? Is Jiren also a GoD-in-training? Did Jiren refuse the position like Goku, so Toppo got it? Why would Jiren refuse? I swear, if Jiren ends up being an utterly one-note character ("I'm so strong, everything is boring to me") I'll be disappointed. There are so many options here. I'd love for Toppo/Jiren to have their own Vegeta/Goku thing going on. -- Toppo has god ki. THANK YOU, Toyotaro, for trying to justify things and not having yet another character who can fight god Goku just because "he's really strong." Makes me wonder how Toppo got it. Seeing how this Toppo is more serious, more gracious to Goku and less of a posturing buffoon, I'm hoping the manga Pride Troopers are legitimately good people and have a "hero of another story" vibe. -- Zeno didn't notice any change between SS1 and SS2. So he's at least strong enough to not notice THAT jump. But GoDs are too fast for him. -- Beerus and Champa really should've teamed up during the battle royale--surely they don't hate each other THAT much? Seeing the two fight together is one of my dream scenes for DBS. -- This panel: I just wanted to point out Ms. Harley-Quinn's pose here is very well-drawn. Lots of flowing motion. -- Last thing: the biggest mystery of all is, why did Toei change the "mysterious robed figure" from Jiren to Toppo? Did they misunderstand Toriyama's outline? Did Jiren get a major buff during the planning phase and they had to get someone weaker to fight Goku?
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Post by Kirasha on Oct 22, 2017 0:57:03 GMT
Gonna pick out a few things here to share my thoughts on. -- Toppo assumes Goku's a GoD-in-training, implying Toppo himself is one. So why is Jiren not there if Toppo is? Is Jiren also a GoD-in-training? Did Jiren refuse the position like Goku, so Toppo got it? Why would Jiren refuse? I swear, if Jiren ends up being an utterly one-note character ("I'm so strong, everything is boring to me") I'll be disappointed. There are so many options here. I'd love for Toppo/Jiren to have their own Vegeta/Goku thing going on. Actually, Belmod introduced Toppo as his protege/successor in the last chapter, so it's not implied, it's been stated. As for Jiren, it may well be that, similarly to Goku, he has no desire to become a God of Destruction. I think it's too early to say if Toppo actually has God Ki, yes he boosted up and got serious, but neither Goku or the other GoDs reacted about it, where as the GoDs did react to Goku powering up to God Ki. It may well be that Toppo has a power that boosts him up to that level, we don't really know. Like U9, his ki is undetectable. I still say that the Zenos didn't have issues following the speed of the GoDs, but rather that it was just too chaotic with the 12 GoDs being everywhere and fighting too intensely with flying, flyshy attacks, building up dust clouds, that it became too much to focus on the whole fight. It was why the Grand Priest disallowed flying as well. It's not so much that they couldn't see, there was just too much happening for them to see.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 22, 2017 1:15:40 GMT
Gonna pick out a few things here to share my thoughts on. -- Toppo assumes Goku's a GoD-in-training, implying Toppo himself is one. So why is Jiren not there if Toppo is? Is Jiren also a GoD-in-training? Did Jiren refuse the position like Goku, so Toppo got it? Why would Jiren refuse? I swear, if Jiren ends up being an utterly one-note character ("I'm so strong, everything is boring to me") I'll be disappointed. There are so many options here. I'd love for Toppo/Jiren to have their own Vegeta/Goku thing going on. Actually, Belmod introduced Toppo as his protege/successor in the last chapter, so it's not implied, it's been stated. As for Jiren, it may well be that, similarly to Goku, he has no desire to become a God of Destruction. I think it's too early to say if Toppo actually has God Ki, yes he boosted up and got serious, but neither Goku or the other GoDs reacted about it, where as the GoDs did react to Goku powering up to God Ki. It may well be that Toppo has a power that boosts him up to that level, we don't really know. Like U9, his ki is undetectable. Idk, Toopo's wording was "You finally cast the aura of a God. Then I shall respond in the same way." I'll be fair and admit Toppo could've noted how Goku's energy disappeared bc God Ki can't be sensed by mortals, but I read the line more towards the idea "ah, so you've turned into a God? Time for me to go God as well!" rather than "I can't sense your Ki now? Hm... gonna assume you've become a God, Imma do the same and hide my energy now!" For sure we'll get more explicit info later on, but I'm just stating what I saw that line as is all.
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