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Post by R I P I R I U S on Oct 22, 2017 12:15:53 GMT
Was it stated or hinted that "normal" ki isnt superior to "god" ki? Or they just two very different types of ki? God ki lets you higher levels of destructive power compared to a mere mortal's capacity. So shouldn't Jiren and Toppo be able to use God ki?
Well for the anime where Goku couldn't sense U9 ki could be that different universes have slightly different frequencies?
Since a mortal to be stronger than its own GoD, you gotta be compared in terms of "god" ki and skill you got.
From the manga, it did hint at Toppo also having the god ki. But then they should have shown us a panel where other GoDs are able to sense the same ki from Toppo/Goku.(Sorry for my memory but - did the GoDs sensed Goku's ki in god form?)
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 22, 2017 17:31:23 GMT
From the manga, it did hint at Toppo also having the god ki. But then they should have shown us a panel where other GoDs are able to sense the same ki from Toppo/Goku.(Sorry for my memory but - did the GoDs sensed Goku's ki in god form?) Fair point, I'm not sure if they meant "God Ki Level" or "Destructive Level for a Mortal." I still think it's "God Ki Level" as I explained my reasoning, two posts up
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Post by Namikaze on Oct 23, 2017 6:25:19 GMT
I really like how grounded Toppo comes across in the manga. He's respectful and more polite towards Goku (granted since Goku isn't portrayed as the "villain" here) and overall just comes off as more of an interesting character because of it. You can tell he's likely the hero of his own tale, as it's a bit of a relief to not hear "JUSTICE YAAAHHHHH!" in almost every other sentence he makes. I sincerely hope the other universe fighters are more like this as well.
Chapter itself was good. GoD's are more or less equals, but it's a delight to know what they're capable of, and how it establishes how Goku relates to him in power - which is nowhere close. It's interesting that Goku will likely never give up his desire to always get stronger; unless he somehow becomes immortal, he'll never ever fully get what he's reaching for. It makes for such a subtle character arc that really delves into the inner complexity of Goku's character. I also thought Helles (or Heles now?) having a bow & arrows of "LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" and Liquir's nine tails reference were quite cool as well.
The only downsides were the lack of the Trio De Dangers, and the obnoxiously reinforced reminder: Goku. Always. Lets. His. Guard. Down. Please stop, Toriyama. We get it. Moreover, it's just ridiculous that a marital artist of Goku's caliber always seems to make this seemingly rookie mistake in the most pressing of times. It does, however, really reinforce Toppo as the disciplined fighter (going back to what I talked about earlier) which is pretty neat in itself.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 23, 2017 6:45:12 GMT
I really like how grounded Toppo comes across in the manga. He's respectful and more polite towards Goku (granted since Goku isn't portrayed as the "villain" here) and overall just comes off as more of an interesting character because of it. You can tell he's likely the hero of his own tale, as it's a bit of a relief to not hear "JUSTICE YAAAHHHHH!" in almost every other sentence he makes. I sincerely hope the other universe fighters are more like this as well. Chapter itself was good. GoD's are more or less equals, but it's a delight to know what they're capable of, and how it establishes how Goku relates to him in power - which is nowhere close. It's interesting that Goku will likely never give up his desire to always get stronger; unless he somehow becomes immortal, he'll never ever fully get what he's reaching for. It makes for such a subtle character arc that really delves into the inner complexity of Goku's character. I also thought Helles (or Heles now?) having a bow & arrows of "LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" and Liquir's nine tails reference were quite cool as well. The only downsides were the lack of the Trio De Dangers, and the obnoxiously reinforced reminder: Goku. Always. Lets. His. Guard. Down. Please stop, Toriyama. We get it. Moreover, it's just ridiculous that a marital artist of Goku's caliber always seems to make this seemingly rookie mistake in the most pressing of times. It does, however, really reinforce Toppo as the disciplined fighter (going back to what I talked about earlier) which is pretty neat in itself. I am actually wondering how these dudes will be introduced. I hope Basil gets some bad-ass kicks anyway. This also means someone is actually getting poisoned by Lavenda, and that we're likely to see a giant Bergamo in the tournament.
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Post by Namikaze on Oct 23, 2017 7:22:15 GMT
I really like how grounded Toppo comes across in the manga. He's respectful and more polite towards Goku (granted since Goku isn't portrayed as the "villain" here) and overall just comes off as more of an interesting character because of it. You can tell he's likely the hero of his own tale, as it's a bit of a relief to not hear "JUSTICE YAAAHHHHH!" in almost every other sentence he makes. I sincerely hope the other universe fighters are more like this as well. Chapter itself was good. GoD's are more or less equals, but it's a delight to know what they're capable of, and how it establishes how Goku relates to him in power - which is nowhere close. It's interesting that Goku will likely never give up his desire to always get stronger; unless he somehow becomes immortal, he'll never ever fully get what he's reaching for. It makes for such a subtle character arc that really delves into the inner complexity of Goku's character. I also thought Helles (or Heles now?) having a bow & arrows of "LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" and Liquir's nine tails reference were quite cool as well. The only downsides were the lack of the Trio De Dangers, and the obnoxiously reinforced reminder: Goku. Always. Lets. His. Guard. Down. Please stop, Toriyama. We get it. Moreover, it's just ridiculous that a marital artist of Goku's caliber always seems to make this seemingly rookie mistake in the most pressing of times. It does, however, really reinforce Toppo as the disciplined fighter (going back to what I talked about earlier) which is pretty neat in itself. I am actually wondering how these dudes will be introduced. I hope Basil gets some bad-ass kicks anyway. This also means someone is actually getting poisoned by Lavenda, and that we're likely to see a giant Bergamo in the tournament. I'm hoping we'll learn about them like we did in the anime, though, I fear we might not with the list of other stuff to cover. Poor guys will likely be forgettable (key wording on that) fodder like many fighters in the anime.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 24, 2017 4:58:07 GMT
Was it stated or hinted that "normal" ki isnt superior to "god" ki? Or they just two very different types of ki? God ki lets you higher levels of destructive power compared to a mere mortal's capacity. So shouldn't Jiren and Toppo be able to use God ki? Well for the anime where Goku couldn't sense U9 ki could be that different universes have slightly different frequencies? Since a mortal to be stronger than its own GoD, you gotta be compared in terms of "god" ki and skill you got. From the manga, it did hint at Toppo also having the god ki. But then they should have shown us a panel where other GoDs are able to sense the same ki from Toppo/Goku.(Sorry for my memory but - did the GoDs sensed Goku's ki in god form?) God ki was never properly explained to my knowledge in either Battle of Gods movie or the anime equivalent arc. It was never described as superior or inferior to moral/normal ki. We're probably lead to believe god ki was inherently stronger and was the reason for why Beerus was so much stronger than everyone else (of course that didn't really explain why the Kais weren't as strong even though they should possess god ki). The Saiyan god ritual was needed to give Goku the same god ki to match him. It was just never properly fleshed out. Golden Freeza story mucked that up by having Freeza become just as strong without god ki. Later opponents like Hit and Jiren are never described as having god ki either, so it seems the only difference is that it gives people better ki control, at least in the anime. God ki seemed like a cool concept, but it really hasn't gone anywhere storywise. I don't really think it matters in the grand scheme of things.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Oct 24, 2017 17:38:51 GMT
Was it stated or hinted that "normal" ki isnt superior to "god" ki? Or they just two very different types of ki? God ki lets you higher levels of destructive power compared to a mere mortal's capacity. So shouldn't Jiren and Toppo be able to use God ki? Well for the anime where Goku couldn't sense U9 ki could be that different universes have slightly different frequencies? Since a mortal to be stronger than its own GoD, you gotta be compared in terms of "god" ki and skill you got. From the manga, it did hint at Toppo also having the god ki. But then they should have shown us a panel where other GoDs are able to sense the same ki from Toppo/Goku.(Sorry for my memory but - did the GoDs sensed Goku's ki in god form?) God ki was never properly explained to my knowledge in either Battle of Gods movie or the anime equivalent arc. It was never described as superior or inferior to moral/normal ki. We're probably lead to believe god ki was inherently stronger and was the reason for why Beerus was so much stronger than everyone else (of course that didn't really explain why the Kais weren't as strong even though they should possess god ki). The Saiyan god ritual was needed to give Goku the same god ki to match him. It was just never properly fleshed out. Golden Freeza story mucked that up by having Freeza become just as strong without god ki. Later opponents like Hit and Jiren are never described as having god ki either, so it seems the only difference is that it gives people better ki control, at least in the anime. God ki seemed like a cool concept, but it really hasn't gone anywhere storywise. I don't really think it matters in the grand scheme of things. Like each ki should have had their respective limit to till where one could reach in terms of raw power alone.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 24, 2017 22:35:15 GMT
The criticism toward Manga Goku being less empathetic and equally idiotic as the anime are pure non-sense. Manga Goku doesn't even know the universes are being crapped yet, and the Manga is actually going out of its way to make a point Goku is unknowingly giving a chance to one more universe to survive. I wonder if this delay is to the manga's benefit sometimes. With the anime so far ahead but still following the same general outline (even if the specifics change) I wonder if the manga is able to benefit from this to try and tell a better tale and maybe even address some fan concerns. Can't patch everything though. The only downsides were the lack of the Trio De Dangers, and the obnoxiously reinforced reminder: Goku. Always. Lets. His. Guard. Down. Please stop, Toriyama. We get it. Moreover, it's just ridiculous that a marital artist of Goku's caliber always seems to make this seemingly rookie mistake in the most pressing of times. It does, however, really reinforce Toppo as the disciplined fighter (going back to what I talked about earlier) which is pretty neat in itself. Lack of Trio de Dangers means that I think the manga isn't even going to entertain the possibility of Buu being a fighter. He'll likely just be asleep from the get-go and they'll move on to Frieza. It also means less development for U9 completely meaning they'll likely just be fodderized that much more quickly in the upcoming tournament. As for Goku and his lack of guard. ...Yeah. It really has gotten old. This latest one was especially bad. Previous incidents were hit or miss. - Getting caught off guard by Ginyu's body swap technique? Completely understandable. Goku had never seen a technique like this before and was bewildered at why Ginyu was stabbing himself and smiling about it. - When Majin Vegeta clocked him over the head this was AFTER a fight had been finished and they had agreed to go fight Buu. He's lucky Majin Vegeta decided to not just murder him on the spot. - When DBS re-did the awful laser scene they had Goku power down after already crushing Frieza and get hit from behind. - This battle with Toppo? LITERALLY IN A FIGHT. It's times like these that I miss this version of Goku.
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Post by Jason9000 on Oct 25, 2017 0:51:40 GMT
I got to say each new chapter that comes out makes me smile. I’m more impressed with the manga than I ever will be with the anime. The character interactions are superb, Beerus and Whis aren’t solely obsessed with food porn, and I even tolerate the Omni-kings. Hell I loathe anime Beerus with a passion, but I actually tolerate his manga counterpart. -Having the gods of destruction have unique abilities that could easily take each other down was great. Helles with her arrows and Rumshi with his yell was interesting. -The fact that the Omni-Kings can't really keep up with the gods fighting shows that he really isn’t a fighter. Although now that I think about it how is he able to just keep up with Goku and Toppo, but can’t even track the gods before they start flying all over the place and kicking up so much dust? -The fact that the Zeno’s were bored and were still gonna erase the Universes really shows how Goku accidentally saved the Universes from erasure than in the anime where he started the whole thing as both Zeno’s forgot about both the tournament and wanting to erase the Universes in the first place. -I like Toppo’s more serious and grounded personality. While I wouldn’t have minded a single pose and him describing himself as a warrior of justice, as stated by others it’s refreshing then hearing “Son Goku is evil! Justice will prevail! Pride troopers do a pose!” -The fact that Goku knows Jiren is this strong going in certainly changes things. Makes me wonder how he’ll approach Jiren more in the tournament.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 25, 2017 1:15:32 GMT
-The fact that the Omni-Kings can't really keep up with the gods fighting shows that he really isn’t a fighter. Although now that I think about it how is he able to just keep up with Goku and Toppo, but can’t even track the gods before they start flying all over the place and kicking up so much dust? The GoDs were fighting in the air and there was 12 of them, and used more energy attacks that caused some debris to arise. Goku and Toppo were limited to the ground, easier to pinpoint the fight for the Omni-Kings, and they used more of their fists than blast attacks, therefore no dust clouds... or at least not as much.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 25, 2017 4:58:41 GMT
I prefer if they don't even tease Majin Buu as a possibility. If they had done that from the start and just been upfront about Freeza being part of the team they could have avoided a lot of hassle. A few panels dedicated to explaining why Buu can't compete would suffice. I suppose with Pride Troopers stronger than before it would make sense for Goku dismiss Majin Buu off hand for not being "smart" enough to fight in this tournament and see the need for Freeza to compete with them, since he is as powerful as SSB forms. The others would reluctantly have to accept it if Goku tells them a fighter from U11 was able to overpower him as SSB and that they had a much stronger warrior waiting in the wings.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 27, 2017 9:08:46 GMT
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Post by iron leaf on Oct 27, 2017 11:33:26 GMT
Thanks for the link. I have to admit. If the Anime would be like the Manga the whole show could improve very, very much. We can be all glad that Toyotaro might have the freedom to draw the manga his way with little restriction from Toei + AT, I guess. Showing off all transformation makes total sense in the chapter, man, people on the internet were bitching because he was way too long in SSJ3. Idiot people are dumb, I guess. Funny how Goku and the others themselves call the transformations by numbers. Toyotaro sees them apparently as 1-2-3-4-5. Very funny, how Toppo "tells" Goku to stop letting his guard down every second Looks like Toyotaro gets sick of it in the Anime as everyone else in the Fandom. Toyotaro's Goku SSJ3 is gorgeous. But I think, Eiki did a slightly better job. Mhm, that is rather subjective. I want more SSJ3. I don't care if this transformation has big issues.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 27, 2017 18:00:37 GMT
I prefer if they don't even tease Majin Buu as a possibility. If they had done that from the start and just been upfront about Freeza being part of the team they could have avoided a lot of hassle. A few panels dedicated to explaining why Buu can't compete would suffice. I suppose with Pride Troopers stronger than before it would make sense for Goku dismiss Majin Buu off hand for not being "smart" enough to fight in this tournament and see the need for Freeza to compete with them, since he is as powerful as SSB forms. The others would reluctantly have to accept it if Goku tells them a fighter from U11 was able to overpower him as SSB and that they had a much stronger warrior waiting in the wings. I do wonder what the manga is going to do with Golden Frieza, since they've never actually used him at all in the past. Hit was stronger than SSB foes in the anime, but weaker than SSB Goku in the manga. Frieza was stronger than SSB originally in the anime, but lost stamina. The manga also has SSB with a stamina drain (which the anime later adapted to a degree) which wasn't negated until the end of the Zamasu arc. I wonder if now Toyotaro is going to do flashbacks or something to show Golden Frieza. Or for the hilarity of it all, watch him actually just use Buu instead.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 27, 2017 18:13:47 GMT
I prefer if they don't even tease Majin Buu as a possibility. If they had done that from the start and just been upfront about Freeza being part of the team they could have avoided a lot of hassle. A few panels dedicated to explaining why Buu can't compete would suffice. I suppose with Pride Troopers stronger than before it would make sense for Goku dismiss Majin Buu off hand for not being "smart" enough to fight in this tournament and see the need for Freeza to compete with them, since he is as powerful as SSB forms. The others would reluctantly have to accept it if Goku tells them a fighter from U11 was able to overpower him as SSB and that they had a much stronger warrior waiting in the wings. I do wonder what the manga is going to do with Golden Frieza, since they've never actually used him at all in the past. Hit was stronger than SSB foes in the anime, but weaker than SSB Goku in the manga. Frieza was stronger than SSB originally in the anime, but lost stamina. The manga also has SSB with a stamina drain (which the anime later adapted to a degree) which wasn't negated until the end of the Zamasu arc. I wonder if now Toyotaro is going to do flashbacks or something to show Golden Frieza. Or for the hilarity of it all, watch him actually just use Buu instead. Manga Frieza will probably stay in Golden form just for strength consistency but dismiss the idea he used it in the appropriate RoF Manga "arc." Instead, I suggest that he was revived and had trained endlessly (not 4 months, as far as I know, no shots of him in Hell was shown in the Manga) in Hell to the point his Final Form "Base" could stand up to Goku who went through some training with Whis. Training that didn't involve Letting his Guard Down. So for Frieza, either SSJ3 or the Manga equivalent of Saiyan Beyond God (I know, it's not in the Manga, but I meant as a bar for Frieza to reach in terms of power). Now his reintroduction to the ToP, he can say he "refined" himself and managed to unlock a new form he never knew existed (basically his Manga's intro to the Gold Form, kinda like SS). And then same events play as normal, only snarkier, like Gohan that little Shi... (I still laugh every time I come across that page.) Toyotaro really has liberty in this arc since he can take the mistakes that were in the anime and (possibly) improve them, given how he's behind the Anime's schedule.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 27, 2017 20:40:50 GMT
Training that didn't involve Letting his Guard Down. Asking for a lot from Super here.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 28, 2017 0:05:23 GMT
Training that didn't involve Letting his Guard Down. Asking for a lot from Super Toei here , asking very little from Toyotaro.
FTFY. Jokes aside, just how much can each medium deviate from the given storyline? Will Toyotaro keep the same "weakness" Anime!Goku had during his fights, not using a non-God Ki Super Saiyan form, letting his guard down (the one against Toppo felt more of a "overconfident moment" and jab at the anime than an actual flaw Goku has tbh), taking his sweet time fighting Ribrianne? (Foam appears out of my mouth for the last one. Lol)
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Post by Axalon on Oct 28, 2017 3:44:12 GMT
Asking for a lot from Super Toei here , asking very little from Toyotaro.
FTFY. Jokes aside, just how much can each medium deviate from the given storyline? Will Toyotaro keep the same "weakness" Anime!Goku had during his fights, not using a non-God Ki Super Saiyan form, letting his guard down (the one against Toppo felt more of a "overconfident moment" and jab at the anime than an actual flaw Goku has tbh), taking his sweet time fighting Ribrianne? (Foam appears out of my mouth for the last one. Lol) I think it really depends on how much detail Toriyama puts into the outline. Now that both manga/anime are a few story arcs in, we can see some of these differences--as well as the similarities. - For instance, Vegeta was roughly ~9-10x weaker than Goku when facing Hit in both, but how Goku was stronger drastically changed from manga to anime (SSB debuff to Vegeta as opposed to Kaioken boost for Goku). - The ToP in both has an exhibition match before the actual tournament itself. Both versions feature Goku fighting Toppo, but the anime added Gohan, Buu and the Trio de Dangers while the manga had the GoDs whomp each other instead. - Both versions had Goku and Beerus about to destroy the universe just by punching each other. (Still rolling my eyes at that one). - The Zamasu arc both had a point where a bunch of evil clones appeared. Black's rage clones and Fusion Zamasu's potara self-replication. Both had a point where Zamasu was threatening all of time, with Clomasu and the time machine (still have no idea how the time machine was supposed to work). - Goku messed up on the Mafuba in both story arcs, with only minor changes to how he messed it up. Just from these few examples, we can see where Toeitaro was allowed to deviate and where they were not. Short answer--we can expect the same major plot points to happen in the manga to more or less the same degree, but how it gets there may differ drastically or not at all from the anime.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 30, 2017 22:14:53 GMT
I prefer if they don't even tease Majin Buu as a possibility. If they had done that from the start and just been upfront about Freeza being part of the team they could have avoided a lot of hassle. A few panels dedicated to explaining why Buu can't compete would suffice. I suppose with Pride Troopers stronger than before it would make sense for Goku dismiss Majin Buu off hand for not being "smart" enough to fight in this tournament and see the need for Freeza to compete with them, since he is as powerful as SSB forms. The others would reluctantly have to accept it if Goku tells them a fighter from U11 was able to overpower him as SSB and that they had a much stronger warrior waiting in the wings. I do wonder what the manga is going to do with Golden Frieza, since they've never actually used him at all in the past. Hit was stronger than SSB foes in the anime, but weaker than SSB Goku in the manga. Frieza was stronger than SSB originally in the anime, but lost stamina. The manga also has SSB with a stamina drain (which the anime later adapted to a degree) which wasn't negated until the end of the Zamasu arc. I wonder if now Toyotaro is going to do flashbacks or something to show Golden Frieza. Or for the hilarity of it all, watch him actually just use Buu instead. Perhaps he will simply have Golden Freeza be Freeza's god form. Toppo has god ki in the manga and is at least as strong as SSSB Goku. It might be Toyotaro's plan to make god ki more prominent and it being the reason the characters are going beyond their Buu arc limits, unlike the anime which seems to be going on unlimited potential and everyone can get as strong as SSB forms with just regular ki. You brought up how Hit isn't stronger than SSB Goku or SSB Vegeta, just that Vegeta overuse of it burned off too much power for him to actually win. It could easily be that instead of Freeza training for three months to suddenly put him on par with Goku and Vegeta's god forms with normal ki that Freeza's training allowed him to tap into god ki and that is what gave him the massive power up and to match the god forms. Freeza's stamina issue could be similar to SSB, but maybe worse. Where he just works around it by learning to contain the god ki within his body as a way for him to have mentally overcome the issue. I know some people had an issue with that in the anime, but the manga did at least leave a little ground work with that being possible in Black arc.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 30, 2017 22:42:45 GMT
I do wonder what the manga is going to do with Golden Frieza, since they've never actually used him at all in the past. Hit was stronger than SSB foes in the anime, but weaker than SSB Goku in the manga. Frieza was stronger than SSB originally in the anime, but lost stamina. The manga also has SSB with a stamina drain (which the anime later adapted to a degree) which wasn't negated until the end of the Zamasu arc. I wonder if now Toyotaro is going to do flashbacks or something to show Golden Frieza. Or for the hilarity of it all, watch him actually just use Buu instead. Perhaps he will simply have Golden Freeza be Freeza's god form. Toppo has god ki in the manga and is at least as strong as SSSB Goku. It might be Toyotaro's plan to make god ki more prominent and it being the reason the characters are going beyond their Buu arc limits, unlike the anime which seems to be going on unlimited potential and everyone can get as strong as SSB forms with just regular ki. You brought up how Hit isn't stronger than SSB Goku or SSB Vegeta, just that Vegeta overuse of it burned off too much power for him to actually win. It could easily be that instead of Freeza training for three months to suddenly put him on par with Goku and Vegeta's god forms with normal ki that Freeza's training allowed him to tap into god ki and that is what gave him the massive power up and to match the god forms. Freeza's stamina issue could be similar to SSB, but maybe worse. Where he just works around it by learning to contain the god ki within his body as a way for him to have mentally overcome the issue. I know some people had an issue with that in the anime, but the manga did at least leave a little ground work with that being possible in Black arc. I honestly think I'd prefer the anime's version of how Frieza got so strong, and I thought I'd never say anything positive about that particular powerup. I'd much prefer Frieza be a mutant freak of nature with godly amounts (pun intended) of normal ki than training for 3 months beating up a Zarbon-level foe and attaining god ki that way. Either way the powerup is still absurd I think, and neither Toei nor Toyotaro can really fix that particular instance.
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