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Post by Axalon on Aug 25, 2018 0:46:11 GMT
-So Master Roshi has some kind of incomplete version of Ultra Instinct. Where was this during his battles as Jackie Chun against Goku and Tien? If he could dodge anything from Jiren, those two shouldn’t have been able to land a hit on him! He didn’t seem to have it against those Freeza soldiers in RoF so he would’ve had to learn this between RoF and the Universe Survival saga. For the Goku example: - Assuming he's always had it, he didn't need to use it. He was better than Goku at the time. Traditional power scaling and all that. For Tien: - It wouldn't have helped him. Tien was stronger and faster than he was. It doesn't work when the opponent is simply better than you are. Look at when he fought Frost. He wasn't going crazy UI on Frost at all, just holding his arms up and blocking everything--and the only reason THAT even worked was because Frost hadn't started going all out and was playing around with them. This of course is another separate issue entirely, since one finger flick from Frost should've been enough to break Roshi's arms, but I'll not get into that too much here. Suffice to say, I firmly believe Roshi was able to demonstrate his "Move Well" technique simply because Jiren didn't care a single iota and allowed it to happen, similar to Frost not just breaking Roshi's arms in the above example. I'll also not beat the dead horse too much and complain about Jiren not just winning the entire ToP since I beat that horse pretty hard during the anime ToP and the same issue is happening here. Is it plot armor? Oh absolutely. Not quite Goku levels of plot armor, but plot armor nonetheless. Lots of people were wondering why Roshi was even still in and the reveal was...quite jarring. It's not an anti-feat for Jiren, because he's just messing around. Calling this an anti-feat for Jiren would be like saying Nail is super duper strong when Frieza was tele-backhanding him. Both cases were just a far superior opponent playing with their food. It's not a feat for Roshi either, since all this shows is that he can dodge an opponent merciful enough to be moving at the same speed as him, and when Jiren started moving slightly faster "Move Well" stopped doing so well and Jiren started hitting him. The only thing this is an anti-feat for is Goku's goddamned intelligence since apparently he needed to see it in extreme slow motion with Roshi and Jiren when Whis has literally been demonstrating UI to him every single goddamn time he's trained with him! Plus every time he saw Vegeta fighting Whis! He even saw Beerus do it to all the other GoDs and it didn't click! I would assume that it's another transformation for Saiyans because...reasons. Going off of how Beerus was unchanged when he briefly did it and how they briefly thought Roshi was doing it despite no change in physical appearance I'd say it's more a state of being than a transformation. Unless you're Goku. Man, I don't know if I can even blame Toyotaro anymore. I think at this point we can truly say manga ToP is inferior to the Anime. But Anime wasn't particularly good either. I think we can chalk it up to ToP's Arc structure being so fundamentally wrong it can't stand on its own in any way. Don't worry, I can still blame him. Both ToP versions have their ups and downs and their similarities, but now that we're this far in for the manga version we can clearly see what differences Toei and Toyotaro have chosen to make to craft the narrative for this story arc, just as we can see the differences between them in previous sagas. Or--as was the case, when random elements get introduced like Vegito being thrown in purely for fanservice when it wasn't even IN Toriyama's draft at all. I think it's fair to call out issues in the manga, just as it's fair to call out Toei when they make some boneheaded move in the anime. *Incoming Vegeta Rant* I'm just wondering how Vegeta isn't blatantly superior to Goku now that both of them have MSSB in the manga. He was ludicrously more powerful than Goku was in the Black Saga if we don't count the MSSB transformation that Goku pulled out of nowhere. Black required SS2 to wage a losing battle against SS2 Vegeta, and he hasn't even needed to go SS1 against Trunks, who was equal to SS3 Goku as a SS2! Then Vegeta went and trained EVEN MORE while Goku putzed around with the Mafuba, then Vegeta trained, wait for it, EVEN MOAR and got MSSB and even tagged Beerus while Goku seemingly "got rusty" because he's been farming or something and gets scratched by bullets. MSSB Vegeta should logically be the most powerful fighter on the U7 team short of UI Goku himself! The most powerful by a long shot, followed by Goku and Frieza! Vague equality shouldn't even be a thing! That one panel where Vegeta was irritated that the Pride Troopers didn't recognize him as #1? Yeah. I get it. Because HE GODDAMN IS #1 (in U7, but not in existence) right now! For once it isn't JUST his ego talking here, whispering promises of attaining the legend! He really is the strongest right now! Sorry Conqueror Geng , that wasn't really related to the quote I referenced, it was just the most logical place I could put this. Ignore me. LOL I forgot completely about that thread! I think a saga of this magnitude requires more planning. ... I don't think Toriyama considered how much work such a huge tournament would be. ... Based on all the differences between the two versions, it seems like he left a lot of the story up to Toei and Toyotaro. ... If Toyotaro is able to include everything in Toriyama's outline while also incorporating his own ideas and some from the anime and still barely a third as long as the anime version, that shows little overall contribution Toriyama had. ... It doesn't feel like there's a head writer or much supervision and more like several writers adding their ideas with little concern how it fits together. It's like if an author has a team of writers working with him on a novel and says "Alright, here are the major plot points you need to cover. Each one of you works on a few chapters and add in your own details. We don't have a lot of time to look over them so we'll put them all together and hope for the best". A lot of it ended up being filler and you could probably reduce it down to 25-30 episodes without losing any relevant scenes. Another issue is that I don't think there was a lot of thought put into the premise. It's like Toriyama thought that having the characters question Zeno would be too much work so he'll have the winner assume it's okay and have it as Zeno's plan all along. I've cut bits and pieces out of your quote @skar , but this is DBS in a nutshell. No really. It's a vague Toriyama outline and then Toei and Toyotaro just take it and run with it. IMO, Goku vs Hit is still THE quintessential example of how a vague Toriyama outline can be interpreted in two completely valid yet separate ways. Regardless of how you feel about either version, both of them adhered to the vague outline. Goku was 10x stronger than Vegeta was. The anime plugged Kaioken back into the mix, the manga gave SSB a major crippling flaw. Both Toei and Toyotaro later just handwaved it away with Goku initially having Ki Onset Whatever Illness in the anime until he learned better control and Goku/Vegeta just "training harder" and getting rid of the flaw (somehow, it just happens) in time for the Black Saga in the manga. I was under the assumption that "all universes" meant "all universes participating". So there'd still be 4 universes remaining since they were always exempt from any erasure consequences. So if #18 had wished for all the wealth in the multiverse U7 would've been summarily erased, so "all the universes" had been erased in the ToP. Not... really the first time. - Red Ribbon Army (DB) - Pilaf (DB) - King Piccolo (DB) - Nappa/Vegeta (DBZ) - Frieza (DBZ) - The Frieza Force (Both DBZ and DBS for RoF) -- And they get away with it because no one even bothers to guard the original DBs!- Champa (DBS) - Zamasu (DBS) - Jiren (DBS) Even if we're including JUST Super antagonists then Champa and Zamasu have both sought after the Super DBs for their own selfish reasons that led them to clashing with the Z Fighters in one capacity or another, with Zamasu just being the only one to actually get to use them. In fact, more antagonists have sought after DBs in Super than any other entry, assuming we don't count non-canon things like the DBZ movies and DBGT. It probably was last minute, given the Toei development shenanigans with Toriyama that you aptly described. Jiren being for all intents and purposes Superman would've been too much. It'd have been great for the audience I mean, but like you say then the Z Fighters wouldn't have the moral high ground, and we just can't have that now can we?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2018 2:37:38 GMT
I was under the assumption that "all universes" meant "all universes participating". So there'd still be 4 universes remaining since they were always exempt from any erasure consequences. So if #18 had wished for all the wealth in the multiverse U7 would've been summarily erased, so "all the universes" had been erased in the ToP. That makes sense. I've always wondered what happens after Zeno reduces the number of universes. When he destroyed those six universes before, will a higher god eventually create new ones or do new universes come about naturally? We know the Kaioshin were retconned to be Gods of Creation but someone may have created them or planted the tree they're born from. In this case, Zeno might be considered the highest ranking God of Destruction since he watches over the multiverse but he seems to only be capable of destroying things. I meant that it was the first time an antagonist was after the Dragonball *and* we never found out their wish was going to be. The rest either obtained their wish or at least stated what they were going to wish for . The most likely wish would be to resurrect his master and/or family but we don't know for sure. I forgot about Champa so technically Jiren is the second since we never found out what Champa was originally planning to wish for. Since the U6 saga was pretty light-hearted, Champa's wish probably wasn't anything serious though.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 25, 2018 2:44:02 GMT
I was under the assumption that "all universes" meant "all universes participating". So there'd still be 4 universes remaining since they were always exempt from any erasure consequences. So if #18 had wished for all the wealth in the multiverse U7 would've been summarily erased, so "all the universes" had been erased in the ToP. That makes sense. I've always wondered what happens after Zeno reduces the number of universes. When he destroyed those six universes before, will a higher god eventually create new ones or do new universes come about naturally? We know the Kaioshin were retconned to be Gods of Creation but someone may have created them or planted the tree they're born from. In this case, Zeno might be considered the highest ranking God of Destruction since he watches over the multiverse but he seems to only be capable of destroying things. There's actually a theory about that! Essentially, it goes that Zen-Oh pretty much IS the Supreme God of Destruction. He even has El Grande Padre who guides and counsels him in a role much like how Whis or Vados do to Beerus and Champa. The theory also suggests that Zen-Oh's Creation God counterpart is Zalama, who as we know is the creator of the Super DBs and going off of internal universe logic must still be alive somewhere since the Super DBs are active, much like how Dende is to Earth's DBs. I dunno about the Zalama part, but it does make sense since Kami originally WAS the God back in DB and he created Shenron's DBs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2018 4:24:07 GMT
There's actually a theory about that! Essentially, it goes that Zen-Oh pretty much IS the Supreme God of Destruction. He even has El Grande Padre who guides and counsels him in a role much like how Whis or Vados do to Beerus and Champa. The theory also suggests that Zen-Oh's Creation God counterpart is Zalama, who as we know is the creator of the Super DBs and going off of internal universe logic must still be alive somewhere since the Super DBs are active, much like how Dende is to Earth's DBs. I dunno about the Zalama part, but it does make sense since Kami originally WAS the God back in DB and he created Shenron's DBs. That's an interesting theory! I've always assumed Zalama would be the closest to an omnipotent being we'll see in Dragonball. If he create the Super Dragonballs that can grant any wish, who knows how powerful Zalama is. If we ever do see him, I hope he kinda looks like a Namek...but a badass Namek and not use the same gag as with Zeno by having him look like a young Dende!
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Post by Axalon on Aug 25, 2018 4:29:41 GMT
There's actually a theory about that! Essentially, it goes that Zen-Oh pretty much IS the Supreme God of Destruction. He even has El Grande Padre who guides and counsels him in a role much like how Whis or Vados do to Beerus and Champa. The theory also suggests that Zen-Oh's Creation God counterpart is Zalama, who as we know is the creator of the Super DBs and going off of internal universe logic must still be alive somewhere since the Super DBs are active, much like how Dende is to Earth's DBs. I dunno about the Zalama part, but it does make sense since Kami originally WAS the God back in DB and he created Shenron's DBs. That's an interesting theory! I've always assumed Zalama would be the closest to an omnipotent being we'll see in Dragonball. If he create the Super Dragonballs that can grant any wish, who knows how powerful Zalama is. If we ever do see him, I hope he kinda looks like a Namek...but a badass Namek and not use the same gag as with Zeno by having him look like a young Dende! We need a badass Namekian again. Poor Piccolo just can't keep up anymore. Knowing Toriyama I bet Zalama will end up being some weakling.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 25, 2018 20:28:43 GMT
Something funny I thought I would share. This chapter gets sillier the more I think about it and I don't wanna think about it anymore. Hmmmm. Who taught him that indeed Roshi? It was that fiend Jackie Chun!
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 25, 2018 20:38:38 GMT
Axalon LMFAO, if anything that was the best part of the chapter for me. One of the few good things that happened. Roshi going for the lolz and saying "HAH, screaming to get stronger? Who taught you that, FREEZA, VEGETA?!". Dunno man, this was one of the best burns/snide comments inside DB series for me. In his defense.... "Clashing with body alone (and not thoughts interfering)" is indeed close to Ultra Instinct in theory.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 25, 2018 20:56:11 GMT
Axalon LMFAO, if anything that was the best part of the chapter for me. One of the few good things that happened. Roshi going for the lolz and saying "HAH, screaming to get stronger? Who taught you that, FREEZA, VEGETA?!". Dunno man, this was one of the best burns/snide comments inside DB series for me. In his defense.... "Clashing with body alone (and not thoughts interfering)" is indeed close to Ultra Instinct in theory. See, I don't think it was meant as some kind of self-burn though, going off of his monologue afterwards. I honestly think Goku just plain forgot that Roshi has always said it isn't about winning, it's about not losing. On the surface it sounds the same, but the further down you go you get more out of it. This is why he reiterates it afterwards. Because, Goku/Jackie Chun aren't exactly wrong. At least not completely. Strength IS the only thing that matters in DB in the end, which is why when Goku gets UI not only will he have mastered moving independently without thought, but it also inexplicably comes with a massive power boost that turns Goku's hair another color yet again since otherwise Jiren would just thrash UI Goku anyway due to being stronger and faster and we can't have that can we? As for theoretical UI yeah, Toriyama has been saying stuff like that for decades now in DB. This is just the latest version of it to rear its ugly head.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 25, 2018 21:20:53 GMT
Axalon LMFAO, if anything that was the best part of the chapter for me. One of the few good things that happened. Roshi going for the lolz and saying "HAH, screaming to get stronger? Who taught you that, FREEZA, VEGETA?!". Dunno man, this was one of the best burns/snide comments inside DB series for me. In his defense.... "Clashing with body alone (and not thoughts interfering)" is indeed close to Ultra Instinct in theory. See, I don't think it was meant as some kind of self-burn though, going off of his monologue afterwards. I honestly think Goku just plain forgot that Roshi has always said it isn't about winning, it's about not losing. On the surface it sounds the same, but the further down you go you get more out of it. This is why he reiterates it afterwards. Because, Goku/Jackie Chun aren't exactly wrong. At least not completely. Strength IS the only thing that matters in DB in the end, which is why when Goku gets UI not only will he have mastered moving independently without thought, but it also inexplicably comes with a massive power boost that turns Goku's hair another color yet again since otherwise Jiren would just thrash UI Goku anyway due to being stronger and faster and we can't have that can we? As for theoretical UI yeah, Toriyama has been saying stuff like that for decades now in DB. This is just the latest version of it to rear its ugly head. I'll rephrase: It's not as much of a burn to Goku (as much as it was a funny lesson, as he clearly meant no harm to him) as it is to Freeza and Vegeta by being used as completely raging meathead examples. Nonetheless, I think this was still a (minor) jab for Goku not continuing to hang out with him and preferring to be hanging and admiring brute dudes like Freeza and Vegeta. As a teacher reprimanding a student, ofc.
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Post by Kirasha on Aug 26, 2018 11:41:40 GMT
I'm just going to leave this gem here for Roshi's bullshit asspull > Can't see First Form Frost's hands moving > Able to block Final Form Frost's hands
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Post by Axalon on Aug 26, 2018 16:42:09 GMT
KirashaYup. This just goes with what I've been saying. Roshi has only survived this long because his opponents have been incredibly lenient on him. Both Frost and Jiren are clowning around when they fight him and anything "badass" that he does needs to marked with a bunch of asterisks since in an actual serious fight he wouldn't last a tenth of a tenth of a second against either of them.
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Post by Kirasha on Aug 26, 2018 16:48:49 GMT
Kirasha Yup. This just goes with what I've been saying. Roshi has only survived this long because his opponents have been incredibly lenient on him. Both Frost and Jiren are clowning around when they fight him and anything "badass" that he does needs to marked with a bunch of asterisks since in an actual serious fight he wouldn't last a tenth of a tenth of a second against either of them. I honestly do not believe Frost was clowning around, especially considering it was him that kicked out practically all of universe 9. Frost just doesn't seem to be the type to clown around and be lenient on anyone. As for Jiren, don't care how much he holds back and how much he pulls his punches, that one single strike to Roshi's jaw should've been it. This is just really bad writing.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 26, 2018 16:54:04 GMT
I honestly do not believe Frost was clowning around, especially considering it was him that kicked out practically all of universe 9. Frost just doesn't seem to be the type to clown around and be lenient on anyone. Universe 9 was after Frieza convinced him to go all-out, which was after Frieza told him to pull away from the weakling U7 humans. I mean, that's just Jiren holding back. I agree that Jiren should be one-shotting the entire goddamn touranment, but for whatever reason Toriyama decided that Jiren fights to see the maximum from his opponents first, then one-shots them. Hit and Roshi are prime examples of this and Goku in this chapter is a further demonstration, since after Jiren believed that Goku had finally shown him every trick up his sleeve he declared he was going to just end Goku. Jiren and Frost holding back to the extent they are is bad writing yes, but it's a reasonable explanation for why Roshi isn't immediately eliminated. It's stupid, yes, but the alternative is far dumber and implies Roshi has improved that much doing nothing but reading his pornos.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 26, 2018 18:21:31 GMT
Kirasha Yup. This just goes with what I've been saying. Roshi has only survived this long because his opponents have been incredibly lenient on him. Both Frost and Jiren are clowning around when they fight him and anything "badass" that he does needs to marked with a bunch of asterisks since in an actual serious fight he wouldn't last a tenth of a tenth of a second against either of them. Nope, he was actually beating them up. I know this is the most logic conclusion for everyone, but we also know that logically, logic can't work in DBS. Roshi actually squared them up. So, would you say Caseral (the cyborg dude) who managed to almost knock Berserker Kale out was clowning Roshi too? He got eliminated by Roshi. How would you explain that? There was clearly no clowning involved there. Kaseral even said "what!!! My detector says he's so weak, how can he beat me up?" so he clearly was using some plot BS that allows him to strike opponents millions of times stronger than he is. He only failed against Jiren because he drained his stamina. Jiren beating Roshi wasn't him getting tired of "clowning" but taking advantage of his last second power-down much like he managed to win after Goku White after powering down. As for Frost, he managed to out Tien and Krilin but not Roshi.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 26, 2018 22:18:05 GMT
Roshi actually squared them up. So, would you say Caseral (the cyborg dude) who managed to almost knock Berserker Kale out was clowning Roshi too? He got eliminated by Roshi. How would you explain that? There was clearly no clowning involved there. Kaseral even said "what!!! My detector says he's so weak, how can he beat me up?" so he clearly was using some plot BS that allows him to strike opponents millions of times stronger than he is. That's easy. 1) It wasn't just Caseral who took down Berserker Kale. It was literally every Pride Trooper not named Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo. 2) He barely did anything to Kale anyway. He hit her like one time from behind (literally, that we see on-panel at any rate) while the other PTs did most of the work and were getting strangled and stuff. 3) Kale herself was already so exhausted to the point that Vegeta, observing her only briefly, made the offhand comment that she was already losing power and she'd either get knocked off or get killed. This is clearly not the same Kale who made Golden Frieza her bitch. That Kale was sooooo last chapter. This is Exhausted Berserker Kale who can't handle the cannon fodder Pride Troopers. Kinda like how Goku by all rights could've been the one in the best shape fighting a Cell Jr at the Cell Games, but didn't eat a senzu bean so ended up getting his ass kicked by one instead. So yeah, I think its plausible Roshi could beat some guy who barely did anything and only hit Kale a grand total of one time while she was losing power dramatically and while she was distracted by his team. I know the meme is to just say logic doesn't even apply--and sometimes things really do make no sense--but it honestly isn't that hard of a leap to assume that Jiren is just messing around since his modus operandi is literally messing around and punking people. Roshi was protected by plot armor, plain and simple. Plot armor in the form of characters not being serious at all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 0:41:52 GMT
I'm just going to leave this gem here for Roshi's bullshit asspull > Can't see First Form Frost's hands moving > Able to block Final Form Frost's hands Looking back at the anime, Master Roshi did even better against Frost there. Frost said he had to pull his punches as to not kill Roshi but he took a few hits, getting stomped, some death beams, and survived an attempted Mafuba on Frost. It sucks a lot of comparisons between the manga and anime aren't necessarily which did it better but which had less of an asspull. Beerus was able to slap Bulma without killing her so I could kinda see Jiren assuming that Roshi was a frail old man and he had to hold back so he doesn't cause Roshi's head to explode. In both cases, it required a lot of asspullery for Roshi to last more than a few minutes into the tournament. I would've preferred if Yamcha had participated instead of Roshi and given a few joke fights before being eliminated. Yamcha's basically a gag character now so I find it easier to accept the stronger opponents holding back against him like how Cell and Kid Buu were able to hit Mr. Satan without killing him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 22:09:37 GMT
It's what the people want.
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Post by Namikaze on Aug 29, 2018 6:54:32 GMT
I'm not gonna waste time comparing them but the anime is the clear superior of the two. It's far from perfect, but outside Jiren's introduction and the GoD battle royale, everything else from the anime has severely outclassed the manga as far as spectacle and overall memorability go. Manga isn't over, obviously, but everything seems pretty wrapped up so far. Toyotaro is clearly rushing this so there's no telling how this would've been if he had time and actually gave a damn.
Anime:
-Jiren was treated like a force of nature in the anime; in the manga he's literally what people dragged on him being: a big strong guy -Goku and Frieza have an epic one-punch showdown in the anime. In the manga, this is off panel. - The universes all "get their turn" at Universe 7, but they at least show off what they can do like with U2's pretty black hole of love or U3's Anilaza. I'd honestly take it over KALE ALONE taking them all out. - Continuing on that note, who would give a damn about the universes going off this? The anime is no saint either, but there was investment to know more about them in the end. In the manga? I could see a reader caring even less. - #17 feels valuable. In the manga (at least so far) he's rather... there. - Kefla has a cool and introduction and highlighter fight against Goku. Manga... everything is so slammed together. - Goku gains UI in a completely unprecedented fashion. In the manga he just...watches...Roshi...do...it? - Roshi styling on U4 - Team-up beam against Anilaza. - Dyspo feels like a unique entity. In the manga he's just another pride trooper to play second fiddle. - Gin coming off more interesting
Tie:
- The humans are pretty much useless in both versions. - Pride Troppers are wasted in both. - Gohan. Both are pretty lackluster in hindsight. - Toppo. What's the deal, yo? - Frost. Who cares? - Preliminaries/Battle Royale - 18? I dunno, neither one really did anything. - Piccolo. Give him a power-up pleaaaase. - U6 Namekians. Like, who cares? - Cabba. - Hit. Neither fight really amounted to much.
Manga:
- Better introduction to the GoD's. - Better introduction to Jiren. - The Omni Kings coming off more intelligent, wise, and self-aware. - The ToP feeling like an actual battle royale in the beginning. - Universe 2 is more bearable (not that it bothered me) - Kale's character seems significantly better. - The backstory to the U6 girls is more compelling.
Oh no, I guess they have more in common than I thought.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 29, 2018 21:47:04 GMT
Frost was such a wasted character. There was a lot more potential for him to be a good counterpart of Freeza than just making him a smarter villain (who used good publicity to his advantage). He could have been more than just Freeza lite at least. That is what annoys me about the manga and anime of Super in general. There are so many good ideas here that if they were executed better or even tweaked a little that the quality of the series would shoot right up. Roshi knowing Ultra Instinct is just a bad idea. Hit showing off this ability in the manga IMO would make more sense. Hit's ability and technique require him to manipulate time on a small scale to get the edge on his enemies, but it involves him having good control of his body. Hit developing some form of Ultra Instinct along with his time abilities to overcome Jiren would have been awesome to see. It would give Hit of the manga more street credit, given Goku a look at what to do, and show case Hit as a strong rival, while giving Jiren a good battle.
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 30, 2018 2:51:58 GMT
Sometimes I want a look inside Toyotaro/Toei’s thought processes: -- Considering how incompetent Toriyama generally makes authority figures, it’s interesting how Toyotaro had Champa thank Vados for her service, thank Kale and Caulifla for doing their best, and on the whole die like a Champaon. -- Fusion’s only ever been a plot device to make people stronger. No one explores the possibilities of two potentially very different people getting smushed together, instead defaulting to “all fusees are Gotenks.” Kefla’s no exception, but Toyotaro still gave her some curious final words: “It just wasn’t enough. Guess it’s all fate.” That’s not very Kale- or Caulifla- OR Gotenks-like. What’s Toyotaro going for here? Some last-second attempt to give these shallow characters some depth? Some kind of fourth-wall joke? -- Roshi vs. Jiren passes up Sorbet’s laser as most ridiculous DB moment. Yet…I think it works. By this point the reader’s been conditioned to expect this kind of thing, so what’s left is Roshi getting a chance to shine and contribute to the final victory, which is more than most other characters can say. The mentor review was nice—especially seeing freaking Korin. -- Gohan tied against Yellow-Wolf in the anime exhibition match. I wonder if Toriyama’s outline said “Gohan ties against a multiverse opponent” and Toyotaro decided to have it be against Kefla instead? *** So, Toyotaro has Gohan fight Kefla but realizes the two have literally never interacted before. He wisely decides the fight’ll go better with some ideological conflict and adds this “Saiyan vs. human” element. However: -- These characters have never brought up these themes before -- Gohan’s point (“My strength comes from being human”) is inherently stupid -- The fight is a tie, leaving the issue unresolved -- The fight isn’t given that much attention anyway -- The fight is inconsequential since neither Gohan or Kefla are strong enough to have any affect on the tournament Toyotaro tried his best, but he didn’t know where to take Gohan, probably because Toriyama doesn’t, either. Toriyama doesn't care about Gohan, or most anyone other than Goku. Toriyama’s not a good writer. Influential? Yes. Creative? Yes. But he makes decisions based on what’s easy or funny and doesn’t think about long-term effects or implications. He made Zeno a clueless child because it would subvert expectations. He made the GoDs incompetent because it would subvert expectations. He made Frost seem good then end up evil because it would double subvert expectations. In his heart of hearts I think every time Toriyama has Vegeta/Gohan/whoever utterly fail so Goku can save the day, he thinks it’s clever. Because his thinking’s so short-term, Toriyama doesn’t know how to use characters once their immediate purpose is over, so neither do Toei or Toyotaro. Yes, some character moments exist in the ToP but they don’t have much buildup, fallout, or consistency. Like Roshi going almost-Ultra Instinct, or the “Gohan is the team leader” thing. If you want to emphasize Gohan’s human side against Kefla, I wouldn’t go with “it makes me stronger.” Instead it could be Gohan’s human mindset is what gives him an advantage. So instead of messing around, he Future Trunkses it. Or instead of fighting one-on-one, he calls in 17 and Roshi and uses teamwork to win. (Y’know, teamwork? What the ToP said would be important?) Let’s go further. What arcs could Gohan have? You could have him realize he’s put EVERYONE at risk for not taking his training seriously. Or you could have him stick to his guns: it’s Gohan’s valuing of human life that makes him fight more intelligently/pragmatically than the strength-obsessed Goku and Vegeta. Or you could have him realize he couldn’t have beaten Jiren anyway even if he trained, so it was actually wise of him to enjoy life while it lasted. Or you could have him actually be the leader and show him struggling to get Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza to work together. You can do this thing with every U7 member, but the ToP didn’t. I have no clue why there’s not a single writer working on DB who comes up with these kinds of things. Jiren’s a problem for similar reasons. Good antagonists challenge the characters in some way. Raditz/Vegeta challenged Goku’s perception of himself; to beat Frieza, Goku had to embrace that new perception. Cell forced Goku to confront his past. Buu’s a bit trickier but I’d say he challenges the Saiyan’s ego: the whole saga is Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan underestimating him and paying for it. Jiren, though? He has overwhelming strength, meaning he hits all the same beats as Namek Frieza without any of the personality. The manga tries to get a trust vs. distrust thing going with Goku and Jiren, but that doesn’t work since Goku works alone. The anime gives Jiren a “tragic” backstory to make it “bitterness vs. optimism” but again, too little, too late. Having Jiren be an antagonist who wants a Dragon Ball wish for a good cause could’ve made him distinctive, since he’d be the first to have a legitimate reason to go up against Goku. Even Toriyama’s original idea to have Jiren be like Superman would’ve worked, since it would’ve made him and Goku tragic foils: the pure-hearted Big Goods of their respective universes who never would’ve been enemies under any other situation. To me, the best part of the manga is Vegeta vs. Toppo. Unlike Goku vs. Jiren, Vegeta vs. Toppo has meaning since both know they’re the second fiddles. I care about them wanting to beat their opposite number since they care. (Toppo is, in my opinion, a much more compelling antagonist than Jiren.) Unfortunately, Toyotaro’s never shown us the fight for very long since he’s always making sure Goku has the spotlight. In the end, all these character usage problems can’t be fixed until somebody takes the plunge and gets Goku out of the story. I don’t pretend to be a writing expert but if I’d written the ToP, I wouldn’t have had Goku there at all; it immediately increases tension and opens up the plot. (That is, unless U11 was the POV universe and U7 their overpowered antagonists.) Sadly Dragon Ball will continue to be Goku Time for the foreseeable future. Some of the best Superman/Batman stories came after the original creators stepped down and it may be similar with Dragon Ball once Toriyama’s out of the picture. Excellent post, Skar! I'd like it twice if I could.
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