Dragon Ball Super Manga Thread (SPOILERS)

I'd imagine this is just Toriyama overruling things. We know in the past editors have made suggestions on how to improve the story (notably the Android/Cell Sagas), but hearing about the development process of DBS it seems to flow from the top (Toriyama, writer/creator of DB) down (Toei, Toyotaro, etc). We've all heard it a million times by now, Toriyama has his "outline" that Toei and Toyotaro have to figure out to interpret and fill in the blanks with. That's not to say the latter parties can't have any influence on what Toriyama's doing--after all Vegito fanservice was Toyotaro's idea as was Kale's blatant Broly fanservice from Toei--but that's all it is, just some influence.

Ultimately, Toriyama really likes Goku. It's always been the Goku Story. He dabbled a bit with Gohan and making him a little different, but we all know how that turned out. After his moment of glory against Cell you could tell he was already pining for Goku again since Goten is for all intents and purposes Kid Goku redone. Hell, Goku becoming Kid Goku again for GT was Toriyama's idea since the more child-like the Goku, the better as far as he's concerned. He's not alone either, as Goku is by far the most popular DB character (with Vegeta furiously sitting at #2), so as long as Toriyama continues his Goku-centric stories most fans will just gobble it right up.


Comic books also have the benefit of decades more material than DB does, as well as all kinds of continuities and different authors all pitching ideas in. This doesn't mean comics is better by any means mind you, just that they have more materials to reference.


EHHHH. Perhaps not in the mainstream, but the Avengers has always been the biggest team of superheroes in the Marvel franchise. Not financially as a book per se, but narratively they've always been a heavy hitter. It is Marvel's Justice League (literally since Marvel didn't want to be left behind by DC so they got their own big superhero team together). They were eclipsed at times by the X-Men in terms of popularity, but the Avengers quite simply had far more series than the X-Men ever did. 40-odd series to the X-Men's 30 overall, that's without counting the individual superheroes who comprise the Avengers (Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc) who were often used to promote Avengers things, and also not counting all the X-Men members who are pulling double duty and also are Avengers (like Wolverine) kinda like the MCU does now with it's individual movies leading up to the Avengers.

@skar Ah, you're right. I mixed that up with Toriyama creating GT Kid Goku's first design and MOOstache Vegeta.



I like this idea, but there's no way of really making Goku stay dead. Not when there's already a way back via Porunga. But since we're on the subject of GT imagine the Namekian DBs were abused too much by the Z Fighters to cheat death and we get Omega Porunga eh?

Sorry for the off-topic rant but I just caught up with DBS manga and have had some thoughts bubbling up for a while now which echos Ashanark’s thoughts on Jiren and honestly didn’t know where else put this:

Honestly, as much as I rag on Jiren for being an extremely one-dimensional character whose only defining trait is being super strong, the premise of his character and his relationship with his fellow Pride-Troopers is fairly solid and could even be extremely interesting if written correctly.

There’s a common misconception with Jiren’s backstory and lore. The biggest critique being that it’s something we’ve all seen before retold time and time again. Don’t get me wrong, the presentation of the entire backstory is bad, but that’s not the problem. These stories that are constantly being retold are retold based on the virtue that they work incredibly well. Just because an idea is simplistic doesn’t mean it cannot be good. Any concept can be good if the writer is talented enough to put the appropriate amount of though into it.

That’s why Manga Jiren is so much better received character-wise compared to his anime counterpart. The placement of his world, his character is shown to us early on to give us a glimpse into his life. The anime spends so much time building him up as the SHIT that ANY backstory given to us was going to be disappointing. You cannot hook your audience on the prospect that something MIGHT happen. You need to show-or at least apply subtle depth to make characters more interesting.

Jiren as a character concept is pretty unique in the fact that there’s not really a villain like him. He’s not really a villain when we break him down. He isn’t particularly villainous like Frieza or Cell. He generally does his job for justice and not monetary or materialistic gains. He’s not overzealous or preachy like Zamasu or completely amoral like Buu or Broly. His an antagonist force like Beerus. I’ve said before in the past, that his more of an obstacle than a character. And while that’s still legitimate criticism, I think it can work if you write it in a certain way.

The most interesting aspects about him to me is his reputation, interactions with his men and his philosophy. Jiren’s entire character is essentially the “Knight in Sour Armor” trope with a few sprinkles of “Knight Templar” “Jade-Colored Glasses” and the “Ineffectual Loner” to boot. When he was just a boy he witnessed the death of his family by an unknown evil. While the dead parents trope is a bit eye-roll inducing, it help paves the way for more interesting development later. His finds new friends and family to fill the hole that was left behind. If we cut out some of the prior recruitment episodes or filler TOP moments we could have had a few episodes to really flesh this moment out. Maybe Jiren genuinely bonded and cared for these comrades to point he was even going to give up on the evil that slain his family a decade ago. It would then be much more impactful that his new family ditched him the moment things got tough and help cermet his viewpoint.

After forming a new family and friends, they’re once again taken away by the same evil from before. I know people think it’s really lazy that the big baddy was some anonymous thing we never see, but I think it’s a good choice. This isn’t the god of destruction or emperor of the universe, it’s a complete rando who we never see again. This help create the feel that jiren’s world is a cruel place in which anyone or everyone is out for themselves. It could even help serve as a metaphor that it isn’t one person, but the corruption and villainy that plagues Universe 11 as a whole.

I also think it’s a good concept to have what remains of Jiren’s friends turn their back on him once things get tough. It’s a true event despair horizon and is a good defining moment for his character which carries a lot of interesting narrative weight into the future. That the universe is a cruel, brutal place that isn’t fair and that you can never reply on others to support you when you really need it.

Slightly off-topic but I think it’s a valid reference. In the 3rd series of Jojo’s bizzare Adventure, the main character Jotaro comes face to face with his first real opponent called Kakyoin. Jotaro lays into him for his underhanded tactics and calls him an evil bastard. Kakyoin responds that the concepts of good and evil don’t really matter because in you think about it, whoever wins is truly the victor because winning by the virtue of winning is righteous. You proved you were the were in the right because you claimed victory. I think Jiren applies to this style of thinking quite well. It’s especially enhanced when you realize that only when he adopts this stance that he gains fame, power and people who flock to his banner. It reinforces his morals because only through winning was he able to achieve real results.

This muddies the water between definite justice and Jiren’s own brand. That in his mind, Justice doesn’t exactly mean the most righteous but who is the strongest. The strongest having the strength to actually change things. It’s a very fatalism style of thinking, Jiren rejects comrades and attachments: Viewing them as weaknesses for people to exploit which would render him vulnerable. Being vulnerable would allow him to become capable of losing, which in his mind, is the same as being wrong. He’s terrified of becoming a helpless nobody again who cannot change anything. There’s some really solid character stuff in his concept that isn’t explored. It’s only implied and never shown. The last couple of DBS episodes we really get more insight to his character which is really good, but it’s TOO little TOO late by then.

You can even still have the Superman comparisons if you wanted to work that angle. But this time, it would have hidden layers to it. People look up to him as Universe 11’s symbol of peace and his projected as its greatest heroic champion by all the pride troopers and even the god of destruction. But he doesn’t really believe in that but at the same time has to. Being a symbol means he has presence and can change things. He’s somebody with narrative weight. He NEEDs to be this indestructible force that everyone looks up to. Yet, he can never indulge or enjoy that. Because that would open him up to other people. He wants to be the strongest which is the most righteous. Being the most righteous means he’s the center of attention and somebody to look up to. Yet he doesn’t value any of that because it directly contradicts his way of thinking, which would mean he would have to be wrong. It’s these real flaws that make his the idea of his character so interesting. Becoming the symbol of peace because he HAS to be while at the same time deeply lamenting it but unable to throw it away.

That’s why I enjoy his interactions with Toppo. He doesn’t think highly of him because he doesn’t align with Jiren’s way of thinking WHILE at the same time projecting himself onto Toppo and is unable to see it. Toppo, who in his mind is somebody who threw away his ideals for the sake of getting stronger, only to lose without achieving anything. Yet, they’re both incredibly similar when you break them down. Somebody who realizes that ideals cannot win battles and that only raw strength can. Jiren is projecting his own flaws onto Toppo while maintaining his superman façade at the same time. With this You could even expand Toppo’s character as being one of Jiren’s friends who previously left him, deeming him too unstable in his pursuit on revenge only to come running back when he started racking up the wins. Would really add an interesting dynamic and would explain their respect and indifference at the same time.

Obviously I’m WAY over-thinking it but I cannot help but feel that there’s so much potential in this universe and its characters yet they do nothing with them. It’s a shame really and again, sorry for the incredibly long out of nowhere rant.

I found this interesting! This is the spineart for the DBS manga up to volume 5:


Volume 6 and 7 already came out but I couldn't find spineart for those. It's estimated that the overall image will be completed after volume 9 or 10 which gives enough time to finish the Universe Survival saga and the manga's version of the Broly movie. This could be a sign that the manga either goes into a hiatus or ends after the Broly movie. If the DBS anime is going to continue, it won't be until the fall of 2018 or next year depending how long Kitaro is supposed to last for. If Kitaro going to be over 100 episodes like its last three iterations then it will continue until summer or fall of 2019. I honestly hope by then they decide to continue with only movies.

WAIT WAIT WAIT

So it isn't quite the same as SSBE, but Vegeta DID get a new form! Vegeta now has this flame-like aura which Beerus commented on but it looks so goddamn similar to regular SSB aside from the aura change I didn't even realize it at first. Plus MSSB's defining characteristic is no aura at all because you're keeping the power of SSB from leaking out so you don't burn out. But...if MSSB is about keeping it from leaking out and BSSB (I'm calling it Burning Super Saiyan Blue for now) is stronger than MSSB but the aura is leaking again shouldn't it be wearing out and...oh to hell with this.

Soooo...Vegeta getting a new form also in the outline then? As well as defeating Toppo with an explosion-type attack which the anime just took as Final Explosion while the manga took as just powering up with an explosion?

EDIT: Pics for comparison.

SSB:



MSSB:



BSSB:

Not only that, but I have to beat the dead horse again and go back to lack of epic paneling on top of lack of epic fights/story. 

Take this latest fight between Jiren and BSSB Vegeta. We don't even see the initial blow that completely kills Vegeta's momentum as Jiren starts to dominate. We see the aftermath of the blow. 




There's seldom, if ever, any truly gut-wrenching "DAMN THAT MUSTA HURT" feel to any of these fights. At best we typically get more of a "OW! That hurt!" which in text I know is difficult to convey across so let me just add something as a comparison to the above image to hopefully get the point across.



Take #17's explosion for instance. The explosion took up about 25% of the page it was on. A measly 25%. There's no epic feel to it. Spoiler'd for size.



Here we have a character literally committing suicide (I know he doesn't, but I'm speaking from a presentation purpose) in a grand sacrifice for the safety of his family and his entire universe...and it's not even a noble spectacle of awesome. If Toriyama were at the helm we'd more likely see something more akin to, oh I dunno, this:



Literally the exact same scenario is happening in DBZ and DBS, a character sacrifices themselves in an attempt to defeat the antagonist, yet oddly enough the one with characters vastly weaker looks WAY MORE EPIC than the one with the universe busters simply because of the way it was drawn.

Disappointing that Toppo got written off in such a lazy way. I felt manga introduced him in a awesome way. He was not only fighting Goku off easily, but defeated SSB Goku as well. I expected a battle between him and Vegeta would have been a grand epic in the manga. Sad to see how Toyotaro’s critics were right in the end of him being overhyped and not doing any better than the anime writers. He could have done so much more with this arc, but he acts like he barely cares and is just trying to rush through it. This series has no real future.

It just seems like a big middle finger to Whis since without him Vegeta would barely be above his BoG power level. Vegeta might be able to obtain SSJ3 or a SSJ3 tier-SSJ2 like Future Trunks but I don't see him getting anywhere near SSJG without Whis training him to use God ki.

Since the anime and manga gave Vegeta different forms, it's either Toriyama didn't specify or it's something Toyotaro borrowed from the anime and will get ignored by Toriyama when working on his next storyline. I wouldn't be surprised if this never brought up again and we see Vegeta trying to obtain UI in the Broly movie.