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Post by Griffith on Jul 25, 2020 5:28:57 GMT
I didn't know Moro was Cell's secret brother.
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Post by Solus on Aug 1, 2020 21:43:49 GMT
In hindsight I find it odd that Moro is such a capable fighter. Wasn't he introduced as a magician? I'd be ok, if he had some basic combat skills, but how is he as capable as a fighter as those martial artists from earth? Even if he absorbs all the energy of the entire universe that doesn't justify why he is able to fight that well. He should be more of a Broly type fighter with enormous power and ki reserves, maybe a lot of secondary abilities (like he has already shown). But why has he to be on par with the fighters even in the only field, they are good at?
Also I don't like the new design. It looks too arcosian to me. Moro was unique before he absorbed 73, now he looks like any other fan made concept. And why doesn't he have time limits for copying abilities? He did say, that he didn't have them, but he did not explain why.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 21, 2020 3:02:02 GMT
Can't say I can hop on the bandwagon here. I found Ch 62 and Ch 63 a slog to get through. 62 was violent, yes, but was essentially just the "And now Moro beats everyone" chapter thanks to his new powerup. While this is standard fare for DB in general, this gives us... Ch 63. Most of the chapter is Merus vs. Moro and boils down to Merus holding off Moro without using his full strength so as to not vanish himself because "Angel Rules" long enough for Dende to heal Goku. Beerus is there, but as expected he's only there for food as his excuse to have Whis save everyone. So Dende heals Goku first (and he has a cool scar on his chest where Moro punched through him, not gonna lie) and he rushes off to save Merus from himself and activates UI Sign again...  And that's #15! 15 attacks that Ultra Instinct has failed to dodge! Moro is simply faster than Goku is at this point I'll grant, but it'd be wrong to stop the count now. So then Merus just hops in again and just starts breaking Moro's copying ability so he can't use it anymore. It kinda feels like Toyotaro didn't want to even deal with such a pesky ability, threw his hands up in the air and then said "screw it, I'll just have an Angel get rid of the problem so the others have a fighting chance". What this *does* do is curiously open up the realms of possibility again. Just last chapter things like fusion were immediately ruled out because Moro copied Vegeta and had his new Spirit Fission technique. But now all that's been sealed off soooo...Gogeta could totally come in and just whoop him. Theoretically anyway. If Vegeta gets some hits in on him then Spirit Fission would work just as well as it did last time. But I doubt those are going to happen because... Merus reveals that Goku just needs one more push to achieve full UI (y'know, again, since he "perfected" it last arc)  and uses his last attack before fading into oblivion to fully break Moro's copying ability. He gives his parting words to motivate Goku whom he has grown to admire and the chapter ends with an angry looking Goku presumably about to transform to full UI. It all seems so familiar...wait I've got it.  The entire thing just feels like the final motivational push from #16 to Gohan to unleash his full power...repeated again with Merus sacrificing himself to give Goku that motivational last push to get full UI.  Even despite what feels like more copy-pasting from Cell's story beats it feels like a blatant contradiction from how Goku got UI last time...in the Tournament of Power. Here Goku looks angry that Merus sacrificed himself and this will be the key to trigger UI, in a SS2 Gohan-style transformation. In the ToP? It was literally the opposite.   I dunno, this entire thing seems like Goku has to re-learn something he's already "perfected". It'd be like if right after Frieza, Goku had *no idea* how to go SS1 and still had no idea all the way up to Cell before he figured it out again, but this time he gets SS1 the opposite way he did with Frieza. This mind you, after he was able to just achieve it merely by watching Roshi dodge a couple of attacks from a Jiren who was barely trying, but then had to train with a literal Angel to pull it off again...because reasons. It's not all bad though. The concept of an Angel refusing his orders simply because he can't stand idly by and wants to actually help people is a nice one...and probably would've had more impact if he had been introduced earlier. As it is it's like "here's this character just introduced in this arc sacrificing himself to get rid of one of the villain's most OP techniques". It would be like if in DBM, I'K'L was suddenly born and teleported over to Majin Bra and took away her ability to use IM by sacrificing himself and then giving a sad remark about how he could feel the goodness of those fighting against her (not counting Cell) and this inspired him to give his life for them or something. Touching on paper, probably could've used a bit more work on the execution IMO. Goku's wicked Moro-fist-shaped scar that he's got on his chest and back is also pretty cool. |
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Post by Saudade on Aug 21, 2020 6:07:47 GMT
In the panel before Meerus is gone he says that Goku just needs to calm down to master UI, it is a obvious throwback to Freeza and the first time he became a Super Sayajin, even the pose is the same, but he will put his feelings of rage aside and control the form, one last push and all that, Goku couldn't achieve UI because he was using rage or taking his body to the limit, now he knows exactly what he needs to get to the next step.
I quite liked this chapter, I find Meerus very captivating and his motivations very compelling. I also don't care at all about Beerus being a tsundere cat, he's a cat and he will keep hitting his head on the door even if it's wrong because he wants to, he's also deeply incompetent since a better God would have killed Moro a millenia ago, if he was competent Goku would either not exist or be living in Planet Sadala instead of Earth for example.
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Post by Solus on Aug 21, 2020 17:11:51 GMT
In the panel before Meerus is gone he says that Goku just needs to calm down to master UI, it is a obvious throwback to Freeza and the first time he became a Super Sayajin, even the pose is the same, but he will put his feelings of rage aside and control the form, one last push and all that, Goku couldn't achieve UI because he was using rage or taking his body to the limit, now he knows exactly what he needs to get to the next step. I quite liked this chapter, I find Meerus very captivating and his motivations very compelling. I also don't care at all about Beerus being a tsundere cat, he's a cat and he will keep hitting his head on the door even if it's wrong because he wants to, he's also deeply incompetent since a better God would have killed Moro a millenia ago, if he was competent Goku would either not exist or be living in Planet Sadala instead of Earth for example. Do you care to explain why Goku wouldn't exist, if Beerus was more competent?
Also I wonder: If Merus undid Moro's copy ability - does that mean that Moro should lose his recent form and revert back to being goat Moro? He should lose at least all the abilities he gained from copying Piccolo, which means no regeneration for Moro any more. That also means that by now Vegeta alone should be able to handle Moro, no? But I bet, he won't play a greater role now that Goku has to unlock UI. I really liked the idea of making Vegeta relevant in this way, but I really hate, that they are going to throw that away in the trash again.
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Post by Saudade on Aug 21, 2020 18:46:29 GMT
In the panel before Meerus is gone he says that Goku just needs to calm down to master UI, it is a obvious throwback to Freeza and the first time he became a Super Sayajin, even the pose is the same, but he will put his feelings of rage aside and control the form, one last push and all that, Goku couldn't achieve UI because he was using rage or taking his body to the limit, now he knows exactly what he needs to get to the next step. I quite liked this chapter, I find Meerus very captivating and his motivations very compelling. I also don't care at all about Beerus being a tsundere cat, he's a cat and he will keep hitting his head on the door even if it's wrong because he wants to, he's also deeply incompetent since a better God would have killed Moro a millenia ago, if he was competent Goku would either not exist or be living in Planet Sadala instead of Earth for example. Do you care to explain why Goku wouldn't exist, if Beerus was more competent?
Also I wonder: If Merus undid Moro's copy ability - does that mean that Moro should lose his recent form and revert back to being goat Moro? He should lose at least all the abilities he gained from copying Piccolo, which means no regeneration for Moro any more. That also means that by now Vegeta alone should be able to handle Moro, no? But I bet, he won't play a greater role now that Goku has to unlock UI. I really liked the idea of making Vegeta relevant in this way, but I really hate, that they are going to throw that away in the trash again.
Because if Beerus did his job he would have either destroyed Goku Homeworld early on and give no chance to Bardock's plan of saving his son by sending him far away or he would hone the Sayajins to make them space police like Champa. Freeza and Cold also wouldn't exist so the Sayajins wouldn't have space capabilities. So Goku either wouldn't exist or wouldn't leave his home planet to earth without the threat of Freeza, the state of Beerus universe is his fault and he won't change because he's a cat. Also don't count Vegeta out just yet, people were saying he would be useless and he forced Moro to absorb his ally, he can still do things. |
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Post by Axalon on Aug 22, 2020 0:51:25 GMT
In the panel before Meerus is gone he says that Goku just needs to calm down to master UI, it is a obvious throwback to Freeza and the first time he became a Super Sayajin, even the pose is the same, but he will put his feelings of rage aside and control the form, one last push and all that, Goku couldn't achieve UI because he was using rage or taking his body to the limit, now he knows exactly what he needs to get to the next step. The problem is he's already perfected it. Whis couldn't be any less ambiguous about it. Goku KNOWS how to do it. He even calmly explains to Jiren exactly what he's doing before he kicks it up a notch and goes complete UI from just UI Sign. It'd work much better if Goku had never gone full UI at all in the ToP and just stumbled into Sign and only used Sign, and then progressed fully to mastering UI under Merus and his tutelage with his sacrifice being the final "push" needed to unlock the the full UI transformation as opposed to Goku going from perfecting it to not knowing how to do it at all is all I'm saying. |
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Post by Saudade on Aug 22, 2020 1:48:22 GMT
In the panel before Meerus is gone he says that Goku just needs to calm down to master UI, it is a obvious throwback to Freeza and the first time he became a Super Sayajin, even the pose is the same, but he will put his feelings of rage aside and control the form, one last push and all that, Goku couldn't achieve UI because he was using rage or taking his body to the limit, now he knows exactly what he needs to get to the next step. The problem is he's already perfected it. Whis couldn't be any less ambiguous about it. Goku KNOWS how to do it. He even calmly explains to Jiren exactly what he's doing before he kicks it up a notch and goes complete UI from just UI Sign. It'd work much better if Goku had never gone full UI at all in the ToP and just stumbled into Sign and only used Sign, and then progressed fully to mastering UI under Merus and his tutelage with his sacrifice being the final "push" needed to unlock the the full UI transformation as opposed to Goku going from perfecting it to not knowing how to do it at all is all I'm saying. You must be right, because I found ToP manga atrocious so I didn't finish, in the anime it's clear Goku reaches UI by just forcing himself to it and pushing himself to the limit, he doesn't even knocks Jiren out with UI because he didn't know how to do it, and the early Moro arc leads us to think that Goku can't reach UI(Broly movie also tells us this) so it must be a fuck up by Toyotaro in the ToP arc biting him in the ass now. Ps: continuity problems like this make me appreciate Murata in One Punch Man, the man is doing rewrites and redraws to make the webcomic and manga fit perfectly, God bless that man |
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Post by Azoth on Sept 19, 2020 1:30:12 GMT
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Post by Axalon on Sept 19, 2020 3:22:51 GMT
New chapter was acceptable. Very straightforward, not much wrong with it. Actual Perfected UI so far has avoided getting hit by Moro, which is a good thing. Action was nice to look at, even has some good paneling! Only issue I really have is that once again we get this kind of statement from Whis when we already got it once before: ToP: Moro:  With no explanation as to how he was able to just do it before in the ToP and then re-perfect it here. Other than that Moro continues to do his Cell impression by bulking up when faced with an overwhelmingly superior opponent to no avail and then getting gut-punched.  Oh, and then there was that moment where Goku just froze Moro with telekinesis from out of nowhere. I suppose it's better than pulling a HAKAI out of nowhere I guess. Oh yeah, and that ending with Goku ripping off his shirt and his declaration and Beerus looking worried. I honestly don't know where we can even go after this point. |
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Post by Saudade on Sept 19, 2020 17:08:43 GMT
Seems like Ultra Instinct hates shirts unconsciously, every single depiction has him evaporating or ripping his shirt off, also the action was very well done in the chapter, Toyo clearly put a lot of effort in making a very good action chapter tying things up.
People are complaining about Goku not wanting to kill Moro but for me this is the same thing that Goku always does, just expect to be a subversion and Moro tries to do something and fails miserably anyways, next chapter will be fun.
Also the telekinesis is the same used in the Broly movie, it fits Goku so much. Its kinda of a Roshi move
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Post by Solus on Sept 22, 2020 9:03:26 GMT
I really liked the chapter over all, but I am one of the people who complains that Goku is not willing to kill Moro. Moro is by nature more dangerous than most of the enemies, they faced before. Not only because he is stronger than everyone else, but because of his ability to absorb energy without his opponents having a chance to do something against it. It's just stupid to leave him alive.
Also Goku beating him with just being stronger because of UI defeats the whole purpose of Vegeta's training on yardrat That's really sad.
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Post by Andres on Sept 22, 2020 15:42:11 GMT
I think Goku not outright killing Moro may have a bit to do with what Merus said in the Sort-Of-Hyperbolic-Time-Chamber about the Galactic Patrol taking the approach of reforming villains instead of ending their lives, despite their wicked deeds.
Merus could've killed Moro several times while on Galactic Patrol duties, when Moro was old and weak, and without using his angelic powers.
So I guess Merus' "will" does live on in Goku.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 20, 2020 19:34:05 GMT
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Post by Blaze on Oct 21, 2020 1:06:37 GMT
Anyone else feel like Goku's insistence on not killing Moro is a regression from his character after the Namek arc? Like, he killed Freeza and Cold straight up in the future timeline, didn't give Cell a chance to redeem himself (even though Gohan was way stronger, he told him to kill Cell), killed Yakon and had no issue with the idea of killing Dabura.
Moro is one of the most evil characters in the series as far as I can see it. Goku seemed to have learn that there are some people that just can't be redeemed. Moro isn't a Yamcha, Tenshinhan, or even a Vegeta (who still took fucking ages to redeem). He's much more like Freeza and Cell.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 21, 2020 10:55:18 GMT
I think Goku has become aware that there are no consequences, for himself or anyone else, so he can just do whatever he wants. There's three sets of dragonballs now, and an angel who has bailed them out once before.
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Post by Blaze on Oct 22, 2020 4:43:58 GMT
Except there have been consequences, and some near consequences. Going through the arcs, Beerus could've destroyed Earth and I doubt he'd be fine with it being wished back. Golden Freeza was of no consequence, and the next arc was just a tournament arc. But Zamasu led to the destruction of an entire timeline (12 whole universes of life). And if they hadn't played things just as the Zenos wanted with the final wish, that'd be kaput for Goku's timeline too.
He also reacted pretty strongly to the idea of the galaxy going off.
Also, have to laugh a little bit at the senzu bean growing Moro's arm back.
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Post by Solus on Oct 22, 2020 15:59:38 GMT
That's Goku for you: The greatest idiot to ever roam. People always criticize Vegeta for letting Cell absorb C18, when he could have ended it there. Never before I've heard someone say: "Oh, well, that's just how Vegeta is. Also it would have been boring, if the arc ended there." At this point I'm really tired of ranting about Goku. I've had an argument with another user a few days ago, why I don't think Goku is a good protagonist and why I'm actually glad, that we don't see him that often in DBM nowadays. And that was before this chapter of DBS was released. The only good thing that came from this abomination of a plot is, that now Vegeta's training might come back into being relevant.
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Post by Azoth on Nov 21, 2020 22:36:31 GMT
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 22, 2020 23:51:24 GMT
I only read chapters 65 and 66 and am probably missing a lot of vital story details and plot, but did it feel like the story was straining to keep itself going to anyone? In the two chapters I read Moro was pretty much defeated, but felt like the writer had stop the story to give him a few outs to keep it going. I can tell they were trying to make it feel natural, hence why they had Goku spare him and give him enough info to copy Goku's technique, but it came off as clunky. Goku having mercy on someone isn't out of place, I'm so glad Toriyama is no longer in denial about how he had merciful Goku in the manga and its not all just an anime thing like he was claiming a few years ago, but the way it was done here didn't even try to fit Goku's usual m.o.
Freeza was in the verge of death when Goku gave him some of his energy. Even then Goku only gave him enough to save his life. Moro here just seemed beat up and nothing to really pull on Goku's heart string like with Freeza begging for his life. Even the senzu incident with Cell is different because that was Goku stupidly trying to adhere to spirit of fight that he thought Gohan cared about. The story itself could have created a similar situation to justify Goku giving Moro a senzu bean, but failed to realize why those situations in the manga/anime happened and just was bare bones explanation of Goku helped villains before so of course he would spare Moro that I expect from a fan work over an official manga. I know DB isn't big on character driven stories, but still a little disappointing neither Toriyama or Toyotaro could create a better scenario to get them to Moro gets Goku's new ability.
I feel like last chapter should have had Moro make Earth his new body and stole everyone's energy right away and nothing would change. If we gotten that we could have gotten two chapters of them trying to fight Moro Planet. The fix was kind of easy. Thankfully Vegeta's new technique let him steal enough ki to keep the orb exposed. It felt like the story needed to get to the ending where Uub's god power was needed to save the day that it had Goku keep powering through the body of a guy he knows absorb energy rather than try to avoid it and land his blow. Again it would have made more sense of Moro could move his orb and forcing everyone to look for it to create natural tension nd Grand Supreme Kai helped Uub use the god power to help them locate it just in the nick of time.
I might be wrong, since I haven't been reading this arc, but this felt like one of the weaker DBM special where are author had a certain endpoint in mind and forced the plot to twist itself to get there rather than take stock on how best to reach that point.
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