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Post by عمار on Sept 21, 2021 11:15:25 GMT
Not sure forcing Granolah to use a suicide move to win cause he couldn't beat him straight up counts as an "L" a lah Perfect Cell or Frieza smacking him down in Z. But he did beat him, twice! And Goku had to save him, twice! So, that count as an "L". The last part really confused me tbh. Granolah was more than capable of killing Vegeta. That suicide move was unnecessary as hell. Like you defeated Vegeta in his strongest form, twice! yet you're incapable of killing him in his base form? Yeah, I call BS on this one. The Bardock thing is just tying into the new canon of Saiyans as of Minus/DBS: Broly, where some of them were not evil (Broly, Gine, Tarble etc.) and Bardock being a more "noble" fighter. Yeah, that's the thing I hate about DBS. Making Goku's parent "good" saiyans.
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Post by supergojita3 on Sept 21, 2021 18:13:58 GMT
I'd say it counts. freeza has been shown to be more durable than he was. his golden form drained his ki before, and now it doesn't. and if freeza stalled and fought defensively he could have dodged until the end. it's not like he's gohan. I mean his race by default is more durable. Any saiyan would bled out by being bisected no matter if SSJBlue or higher. Freeza could survive that on top of a planet explosion just fine in his 4th form in z. exactly. so its not much of a stretch at all to say freeza could face off against brolly defensively. now, it does kind of get more of a stretch if you take into account fusion rules such as resting for 1 hour before fusing again, which makes it like what, 3 hours if you add up all the failed fusins and the rest time.
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Post by godjacob on Sept 22, 2021 3:04:04 GMT
Not sure forcing Granolah to use a suicide move to win cause he couldn't beat him straight up counts as an "L" a lah Perfect Cell or Frieza smacking him down in Z. But he did beat him, twice! And Goku had to save him, twice! So, that count as an "L". The last part really confused me tbh. Granolah was more than capable of killing Vegeta. That suicide move was unnecessary as hell. Like you defeated Vegeta in his strongest form, twice! yet you're incapable of killing him in his base form? Yeah, I call BS on this one. Neither of those fights had a conclusion, not sure where you are getting him "beaten" from, Goku just interrupted the first one which Vegeta rather violently objected to before forcing himself back in. Nothing Granolah did was keeping Vegeta down, and he was burning up energy and taking shots himself, not too out there he'd believe he'd have to put everything to put Vegeta down cause he kept failing to. The Bardock thing is just tying into the new canon of Saiyans as of Minus/DBS: Broly, where some of them were not evil (Broly, Gine, Tarble etc.) and Bardock being a more "noble" fighter. Yeah, that's the thing I hate about DBS. Making Goku's parent "good" saiyans. And you are free to dislike it, but it is trying to be consistent with the new characterization introduced in Minus. I'd least say wait till we see the Bardock flashback before judging this moment harshly but to each their own.
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Post by Blaze on Sept 22, 2021 4:54:30 GMT
Perhaps I'm judging prematurely, but the focus on Bardock as a saiyan who did something good is frustrating. Honestly think Bardock shouldn't even matter as a character. At most, he should be an example of the average saiyan, like Raditz. Related, Goku's apathy to his father in DBM is great imo.
Anyway, aside from that reveal I enjoyed the rest of the chapter. The fight was intense, and I absolutely love Vegeta properly characterising the fight. It's not a battle to save the universe or anything, so he doesn't want to team up with Goku. That's awesome and it makes the times he does team up with Goku more significant.
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Post by عمار on Sept 22, 2021 12:23:15 GMT
Neither of those fights had a conclusion, not sure where you are getting him "beaten" from, He kicked ass to point that he went back to his base form? & Goku has to interfere (twice) to save him? If that's doesn't count as a lose then I don't what is... Goku just interrupted the first one which Vegeta rather violently objected to before forcing himself back in. Nothing Granolah did was keeping Vegeta down, and he was burning up energy and taking shots himself, not too out there he'd believe he'd have to put everything to put Vegeta down cause he kept failing to. Which is bullshit because he was more capable of putting him down easily, but suddenly he need to use all his power to kill a weaken Vegeta in his base form? Oh sure, whatever...
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Post by godjacob on Sept 22, 2021 16:18:49 GMT
Neither of those fights had a conclusion, not sure where you are getting him "beaten" from, He kicked ass to point that he went back to his base form? & Goku has to interfere (twice) to save him? If that's doesn't count as a lose then I don't what is... Goku just interrupted the first one which Vegeta rather violently objected to before forcing himself back in. Nothing Granolah did was keeping Vegeta down, and he was burning up energy and taking shots himself, not too out there he'd believe he'd have to put everything to put Vegeta down cause he kept failing to. Which is bullshit because he was more capable of putting him down easily, but suddenly he need to use all his power to kill a weaken Vegeta in his base form? Oh sure, whatever... Being knocked to hise base form doesn't mean much when Vegeta was able to will himself back to Ultra Ego putting the piss in Granolah's pants and beat on him back. If Granolah was actually capable of putting him down "easily" he would have, but consistently proved he could not. That was the point, Granolah tried everything (Even revealing his second eye) to beat Vegeta and Vegeta kept coming at him like he was Rocky Balboa. So Granolah rightly became desperate and decided the only option for him was a suicide move cause he could not accept the possibility of losing.
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Post by عمار on Sept 22, 2021 18:36:09 GMT
Being knocked to hise base form doesn't mean much when Vegeta was able to will himself back to Ultra Ego putting the piss in Granolah's pants and beat on him back. If Granolah was actually capable of putting him down "easily" he would have, but consistently proved he could not. That was the point, Granolah tried everything (Even revealing his second eye) to beat Vegeta and Vegeta kept coming at him like he was Rocky Balboa. You make it sound as if he deliver the finishing blow & Vegeta comes right up everytime, but that wasn't the case. Granolah failed to finish him off because Goku stoped him & saved Vegeta's ass. TWICE! And as you can see, he was unconscious after it. And just like Goku implied here. Vegeta would have been dead if it wasn't for him. So Granolah rightly became desperate and decided the only option for him was a suicide move cause he could not accept the possibility of losing. He literally beaten Vegeta again after he used his "ultra ego" (And he right after he kicked Goku's ass) & he wanted to be absolutely sure Vegeta will not survive after this blast, & that's why he was willing to put everything in that last attack even if it killed him. Which is absurd, because he was more than capable of killing him without going this far, but I guess Toriyama was trying to save a face for Vegeta after these two crushing Ls...
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Post by godjacob on Sept 22, 2021 20:21:39 GMT
Being knocked to hise base form doesn't mean much when Vegeta was able to will himself back to Ultra Ego putting the piss in Granolah's pants and beat on him back. If Granolah was actually capable of putting him down "easily" he would have, but consistently proved he could not. That was the point, Granolah tried everything (Even revealing his second eye) to beat Vegeta and Vegeta kept coming at him like he was Rocky Balboa. You make it sound as if he deliver the finishing blow & Vegeta comes right up everytime, but that wasn't the case. Granolah failed to finish him off because Goku stoped him & saved Vegeta's ass. TWICE! And as you can see, he was unconscious after it. And just like Goku implied here. Vegeta would have been dead if it wasn't for him. So Granolah rightly became desperate and decided the only option for him was a suicide move cause he could not accept the possibility of losing. He literally beaten Vegeta again after he used his "ultra ego" (And he right after he kicked Goku's ass) & he wanted to be absolutely sure Vegeta will not survive after this blast, & that's why he was willing to put everything in that last attack even if it killed him. Which is absurd, because he was more than capable of killing him without going this far, but I guess Toriyama was trying to save a face for Vegeta after these two crushing Ls... Ignoring the fact the second example only was a "near death" moment for Vegeta because Goku butted in and distracted him giving Granolah his opening, the first example of Goku saving Vegeta was Granolah just hitting him a bunch in the head with regular punches which in now way was gonna be enough to put down Vegeta. Made quite evident in how moments after Goku saved Vegeta from that, Vegeta got up to kick Goku away from "his" fight. Is it absurd? Granolah just landed a point blank shot to VEGETA'S FACE during the fight in the city, blasting him with something he was sure would kill him, but Vegeta got right back up still defiant making Granolah shit himself. It seems entirely plausible that Granolah was losing belief he could straight up beat Vegeta given everything Vegeta had endured him from that point. Combined with both Vegeta's blows to Granolah after reentering Ultra Ego and the shocked revelation he was becoming more like the Saiyans it seems believable he'd leave nothing to chance since everything else failed to kill either Goku or Vegeta to this point. Stop and go moments in a fight does not count as "two Ls" in any event.
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Post by عمار on Sept 22, 2021 20:48:00 GMT
Ignoring the fact the second example only was a "near death" moment for Vegeta because Goku butted in and distracted him giving Granolah his opening, That's beside the point, the point is he was capable of killing him without the need to use his "suicide" attack. the first example of Goku saving Vegeta was Granolah just hitting him a bunch in the head with regular punches which in now way was gonna be enough to put down Vegeta. Made quite evident in how moments after Goku saved Vegeta from that, Vegeta got up to kick Goku away from "his" fight. Just because he still could stand, doesn't mean Granolah can't kill him. Is it absurd? Granolah just landed a point blank shot to VEGETA'S FACE during the fight in the city, blasting him with something he was sure would kill him, but Vegeta got right back up still defiant making Granolah shit himself. You make it sound as if got right back & fought, but he didn't he barley was standing & Granolah not shitting himself especially after kicking Vegeta's ass twice. Stop and go moments in a fight does not count as "two Ls" in any event. It is when you need someone to save you twice from dying & letting someone fight instead while you're unconscious.
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Post by godjacob on Sept 22, 2021 21:19:20 GMT
Ignoring the fact the second example only was a "near death" moment for Vegeta because Goku butted in and distracted him giving Granolah his opening, That's beside the point, the point is he was capable of killing him without the need to use his "suicide" attack. Based on what exactly? None of Granolah's moves killed Vegeta, even ones he thought for sure would like the point blank face blast. There is nothing to suggest Granolah had Vegeta dead to rights before the super move given his own injuries and what he had exhausted to that point. the first example of Goku saving Vegeta was Granolah just hitting him a bunch in the head with regular punches which in now way was gonna be enough to put down Vegeta. Made quite evident in how moments after Goku saved Vegeta from that, Vegeta got up to kick Goku away from "his" fight. Just because he still could stand, doesn't mean Granolah can't kill him. It's more than standing, it's having endured everything Granolah threw at him and asking for more. Granolah's expressions sell this much as anything. Is it absurd? Granolah just landed a point blank shot to VEGETA'S FACE during the fight in the city, blasting him with something he was sure would kill him, but Vegeta got right back up still defiant making Granolah shit himself. You make it sound as if got right back & fought, but he didn't he barley was standing & Granolah not shitting himself especially after kicking Vegeta's ass twice. I mean, Granolah was clearly in a "how can this be!?" expression and you make it sound like Granolah just has bitch slapped Vegeta with no effort, which isn't telling an accurate story either. Stop and go moments in a fight does not count as "two Ls" in any event. It is when you need someone to save you twice from dying & letting someone fight instead while you're unconscious. Vegeta quite vocally dismisses he needed to be saved twice, and if anything Goku interfering caused Vegeta as much grief as anything since it opened up Granolah for a vital shot attempt in their argument. Also Vegeta wasn't knocked out, just knocked through a building momentarily as he got up shortly to insert himself back in his fight.
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Post by Blaze on Oct 20, 2021 15:48:41 GMT
Lmao at comparatively good Bardock. God I hate it.
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Post by iron leaf on Oct 20, 2021 19:58:03 GMT
Lmao at comparatively good Bardock. God I hate it. I speculated years ago that Modern DB had an agenda. SoftSaiyans. What one already laid the foundation for in DB Minus. For some reason, people think Goku's biological parents need a good core to have to explain Goku's personality? I wonder who from Toeiyama had the stroke that led to this idea. We've always had an explanation for that, but that can't continue after 30+ years because otherwise it would get in the way of the new agenda, I guess. So there has to be a new retcon. Bardock is in fact a good person at heart .... wait a minute ... Saiyan. And Broly is now a good one at heart. And who's next, Raditz maybe? Wouldn't surprise me if he gets dug up again and turns out deep down he didn't mean any harm to his brother because goodness is apparently hereditary in family .... lol.
What Modern DB does to Future Trunks or DBZ Bardock, etc. makes you just as speechless as what Disney does to OG SW characters. Simply disgusting.
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Post by Blaze on Oct 21, 2021 0:54:11 GMT
I'm hating a lot of the reactions people are having to this Bardock tbh. Like, I don't really care if they like it. But don't shit on those who dislike it. It is a massive change, and it's entirely reasonable for people to hate it.
I wish Bardock just stayed dead. There was no reason for him to be involved in this story. It's pretty contrived that the one saiyan that saved Granolah just so happened to be Goku's dad.
This is such a shame, cause I really like Granolah as a character.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 21, 2021 2:04:50 GMT
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Post by godjacob on Oct 21, 2021 6:20:40 GMT
Honestly I know people here hate "good" Bardock (Which seems suggestive here given he seemed cool with killing these people until he saw the kid which reminded him of Kakarot) but I personally really enjoyed this chapter. Action was pretty solid, loved the Nappa cameo and the head Heeter is growing on me.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 21, 2021 19:55:05 GMT
Tbh, I'm lukewarm on this chapter. It's more Bardock being the One Nice Saiyan, which falls a little flat when he just got done participating in a genocide. Maybe this is the moment he started turning into Nice Saiyan.
I do always look forward to more Heeters, though. Looks like Bardock whooped Gas at the time, but how remains a mystery we'll hopefully see solved soon.
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Post by Blaze on Oct 27, 2021 8:36:06 GMT
You know, something I realised. We're watching a genocide which Bardock is taking part in. But we don't even see him kill anyone. All we actually see him do is not kill, and protect people.
Bardock probably killed a lot of people, including women and children, during the genocide. The story purposefully decided to not show that. Not a fan.
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Post by Azoth on Nov 19, 2021 21:03:19 GMT
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Post by Jason9000 on Nov 19, 2021 22:23:02 GMT
I got to admit, I do like Vegeta’s decision at the end of the chapter. Granted him still jumping on the ‘get revenge’ train seems like pre Majin Buu Vegeta. Also interested in how Gas getting…older…taller not quite sure what to call it makes him stronger. I guess the Heaters species have a long life span is Gas hasn’t physically changed in decades. Either way I am looking forward to Granolah vs Gas.
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Post by godjacob on Nov 22, 2021 5:19:32 GMT
"Freaky face mode"
That is classic Goku dialogue got a chuckle from me.
Far as the chapter goes, pretty enjoyable. Made Gas out to be a big thread behind an actually clever plan, and liked Vegeta's little motivation to Granolah at the end. Should be an interesting fight.
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