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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 18, 2016 21:47:30 GMT
@archon Android 13That's Hit. @skar Looks like its Yamcha's time to shine after so many years. |
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 18, 2016 22:02:36 GMT
As I understand it, there are several forms, and several ki signatures:
You have mortal ki, and then godly ki. Mortal ki is what Saiyans, Nameks, Humans and everyone else can manipulate for several uses: flying, blasts, enery, whatever. And then, you have godly ki, which is what Beerus has and cannot be detected nor sensed by normal means.
Super Saiyan states use mortal ki, and can be accesed by rage or training. Once unlocked, it can be trained for better access and better ki manipulation. It uses the user's ki pool.
Super Saiyan God (the red form) is a form running only on godly ki, achieved by five pure-hearted saiyans pouring their power into a sixth saiyan, therefore granting his access to god ki.
Saiyan Beyond God (the base-form looking one) (Kami wo koeta Saiya-jin) is a Saiyan who has managed to control and absorbed god ki, therefore having access to a different pool of ki. It looks like the user's base form, but with a white aura, pretty much the same look Gohan has when he accesses his Mystic form. I think we must make the distinction: This is NOT the user's BASE form. Goku was NOT in base form when he fought Frieza in DBS. He was using his godly-ki-empowered form.
Super Saiyan Blue is a whole different animal. Super Saiyan Blue is NOT a Super Saiyan form ON TOP of a Super Saiyan God. That's the reason I always disliked the term Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, because it is inaccurate. Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan Beyond God who learned to control his godly ki, and then, turn Super Saiyan on top of that.
Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are different forms, but both using god ki. Super Saiyan Blue is not 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan God, as it is not stacked. If the 50x multiplier applies, Super Saiyan Blue is 50 times stronger than the Saiyan Beyond God form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a lousy term for it. I think a more precise description would be "God-ki infused Super Saiyan".
That's the reason Goku and Vegeta can access all of those forms. They can go Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 using mortal ki, or turn it up a notch: Saiyan beyond God, Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue, using godly ki. Vastly different results.
Saiyan beyond God is not their base form either. It looks similar, but it uses different ki, and has vastly different powers. Vegeta in his SBG form would've anhiliated Cabba, as it is vastly more powerful than his Super Saiyan 2 form. But of course, it's also way weaker than his Super Saiyan Blue form.
Blue seems stronger than Red, but not by an enourmous margin. If the manga explanation is to be believed, it is only between twice and ten times stronger (Super Saiyan God Goku against Hit is stronger than Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue against Hit, as he could only use 10% of his power because he used it against Cabba.
Quoting because I can't hit 'like' it twice. The thing is, god ki is a great concept. Unfortunately Toriyama/Toei haven't gotten writers good at worldbuilding to really flesh it out and think it through. Back when I first saw Battle of Gods, my initial impression was that god ki didn't necessarily make you stronger, it just made you immune to regular energy. No amount of training could ever let you beat a god; a guy could be U4 Buu levels and not be able to scratch Beerus merely because the god ki would ignore his energy. My original idea was that Beerus was only about Perfect Cell level if you took away his god ki, because Goku, once he went through the God ritual, could give him a fight as a mastered Super Saiyan. This was just my headcanon for a few years. Once RoF came out and we saw that Frieza could beat up SSB Saiyans, it seems like god ki became just another generic power-up. If you can hit hard enough, god ki is really no different to fight than regular ki. I'd much rather Frieza have gone through a god ritual himself, because it would've preserved the mystique of god ki. As it is, god ki is now an excuse for "we can have whoever we want be able to fight whomever we want and not have to explain why." The creators don't really want to explain anything because god ki is a plot device to them, not worldbuilding. I agree with @thatguy . I wish they'd named the red-haired form Saiyan God, and the blue-haired form Super Saiyan God. I was the opposite. I thought god ki just made someone absurdly powerful regardless of their level. It's why I was annoyed how Super Saiyan God had this massive power up regardless of the level of the participants. It felt odd to try to paint gods are on this whole other level that mortals can't surpass when the series had mortals surpassing gods casually. Now I get the feeling that it is like regular ki in that depending on the users level regular ki user can surpass it or not. In my head canon all the Kais and other gods have god ki, but they are on different levels. King Kai has god ki, but since he is a lesser god it is possible for mortal to surpass him. I like the idea of god ki being a power up for the heroes, but wish it was achieved through a form of enlightenment and spirituality. We had a thread on here that explained how ki is mind, body, and spirit or mind, energy, and courage. God ki could have been used as a great way to explore these different concepts and adding more disciplines/teachings/virtues or whatever to explore to gain some cosmic awareness to ascend to godhood. It is less about just physical training and building up the body and more about training everything. In my mind anyone has the potential to do it, not just Saiyans. Like if Piccolo underwent training like this and succeeded he would achieve his own god form (maybe it wouldn't be as strong as Goku or Vegeta's), but it would take him to a new level and probably allow him to surpass his limits. |
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Post by Archon on Nov 18, 2016 22:11:02 GMT
The silouette reminds me of either Cell or Hit. But who knows if it is one of them. It's clearly Hit. It's got the collar and head shape. The thing that interests me most is who's paid Hit to kill Goku. I hope we get some good intrigue and that it isn't something stupid like Champa. Also, this is building off a foreshadowing given earlier. Goku forfeited against Hit once he learned that Hit can't fight at his best unless he's fighting to kill. We should at least get a good fight out of this upcoming saga. Ah I forgot about that. (The unable to fight at full power) Also I have a theory about who paid for the assassination. Who hates Goku more intensely and for a longer period of time than anyone else in the series? Dr Gero.
He was around since Dragonball. Somehow survived Android saga and his lab being blown up. (Maybe had a backup of himself somewhere else)
Also a genius like Bulma so it would be too hard to find a way to communicate with other universes if he'd been monitoring Goku since Frieza returned. Hit is probably just a final check on Goku's power (I must see if he has progressed beyond my calculations when he was in the future etc) and if he goes a similar route as last time with Cell, use Hit's dna and Goku's god ki etc or maybe he's taking it another direction who knows. Anyways that's my theory. Plus it would explain the reason why Arale is in the series since she was also somewhat involved during DB. Plus this will be the 2nd Major arc in Super and just like Z the Androids will be 2nd. Lol |
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Post by The Masterman on Nov 18, 2016 22:13:59 GMT
The silouette reminds me of either Cell or Hit. But who knows if it is one of them. It's clearly Hit. It's got the collar and head shape. The thing that interests me most is who's paid Hit to kill Goku. I hope we get some good intrigue and that it isn't something stupid like Champa. Also, this is building off a foreshadowing given earlier. Goku forfeited against Hit once he learned that Hit can't fight at his best unless he's fighting to kill. We should at least get a good fight out of this upcoming saga. Sweet, more sagas! Anyways I'm betting it's Frost! Though it'd be interesting if it was Champa trying to not get in trouble with the Omni King by trying to get Goku killed before the major tournament starts(if thats happening) because he is friends with Goku. |
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Post by Archon on Nov 18, 2016 22:20:49 GMT
It's clearly Hit. It's got the collar and head shape. The thing that interests me most is who's paid Hit to kill Goku. I hope we get some good intrigue and that it isn't something stupid like Champa. Also, this is building off a foreshadowing given earlier. Goku forfeited against Hit once he learned that Hit can't fight at his best unless he's fighting to kill. We should at least get a good fight out of this upcoming saga. Sweet, more sagas! Anyways I'm betting it's Frost! Though it'd be interesting if it was Champa trying to not get in trouble with the Omni King by trying to get Goku killed before the major tournament starts(if thats happening) because he is friends with Goku. I don't think Champa is behind it since Beerus' wish on the Super Dragonballs was directly helping Champa with Earth being brought back in his universe. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 22:35:13 GMT
Guys, if no one has yet posted it: Apperently there's a new arc comingAnd I though it had ended for good.  I guess as long as there is money to be made, they will always do it.Can't wait to see what that "Dragon Ball Room" will do for the series. Those episodes are for a filler mini-saga before the next canon one. The actual next saga is supposed to be announced on December 18th and start sometime in January like the U6 saga. I think Hit's appearance is kinda like Giran's filler appearance in Dragonball after the 21st Tournament. He might only appear for an episode or two and it won't have anything to do with the next saga. |
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Nov 19, 2016 7:51:27 GMT
Guys, if no one has yet posted it: Apperently there's a new arc comingAnd I though it had ended for good. I guess as long as there is money to be made, they will always do it.Can't wait to see what that "Dragon Ball Room" will do for the series. Either it's Hit ordered by someone with a grudge or has benefits of having Goku out of the way (Wonder how they send him to Universe 7) or else it would be some "assassin" from Hit's race. That explains the similarity. Just like how "some" Namekians look similar, we can have an assassin related to Hit! Apparently there was no Hit-like assassin in Universe 7 that is why someone from other universe is being sent here. The Translation“Goku is in danger!? The strongest assassin comes to the 7th universe to kill Goku!! The assassin is ordered by an unknown individual.” Also on another topicWhat other Anime handled transformations well? I haven't watched/read a lot Naruto didn't mess up with its transformations and power levels imo. And for God transformations, wouldn't it be better to empty your body of all mortal ki and replace it with god ki? That way the god ki can get a vessel all for itself. |
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Post by Archon on Nov 19, 2016 21:21:27 GMT
Guys, if no one has yet posted it: Apperently there's a new arc comingAnd I though it had ended for good. I guess as long as there is money to be made, they will always do it.Can't wait to see what that "Dragon Ball Room" will do for the series. Either it's Hit ordered by someone with a grudge or has benefits of having Goku out of the way (Wonder how they send him to Universe 7) or else it would be some "assassin" from Hit's race. That explains the similarity. Just like how "some" Namekians look similar, we can have an assassin related to Hit! Apparently there was no Hit-like assassin in Universe 7 that is why someone from other universe is being sent here. The Translation“Goku is in danger!? The strongest assassin comes to the 7th universe to kill Goku!! The assassin is ordered by an unknown individual.” Also on another topicWhat other Anime handled transformations well? I haven't watched/read a lot Naruto didn't mess up with its transformations and power levels imo. And for God transformations, wouldn't it be better to empty your body of all mortal ki and replace it with god ki? That way the god ki can get a vessel all for itself. I don't neccesarily know if that is even possible. (Referring to the ki) unless a character was born a god and so only ever had god ki I don't think it would be possible to remove mortal ki entirely (sans dragonballs anyways) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 1:17:45 GMT
According to Herms, Goku presses the Zeno button and Future Zeno shows up. Future Zeno gets upset over something and wipes out the entire future timeline. Not just the future Earth or future U7 but the entire future multiverse so the timeline ceases to exist. Trunks and Mai are the only ones to survive from that timeline and I think they're given a Time Ring to go to a different timeline. Well that's an interesting ending to this saga!
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Post by kinnikuman on Nov 21, 2016 7:39:29 GMT
According to Herms, Goku presses the Zeno button and Future Zeno shows up. Future Zeno gets upset over something and wipes out the entire future timeline. Not just the future Earth or future U7 but the entire future multiverse so the timeline ceases to exist. Trunks and Mai are the only ones to survive from that timeline and I think they're given a Time Ring to go to a different timeline. Well that's an interesting ending to this saga! Zeno gets mad that Zamasu faces are laughing at him. Universe Zamasu had already spread to all the multiverse so Zeno had no choice but kill it all. Afterwards Trunks, Mai and the gang return to there time, Goku and trunks goes back to pick up Zeno, then let Z1 play with Z2. Whis makes a promise that his other self in the past can help Trunks, however it should be noted present Whis didn't help that much so he might be lying. We learn Trunks can exist before the multiverse reboot and change things.... then they go back... to the future... MY TAKE, THE FRIDGE. Mia and Trunks can't save the future timeline. Mai asked Trunks to return to the future to create a stable time loop. Past Future trunks needed someone to teach him the spirit sword, and Future/future Mai will have to die to convince trunks to go to the future. I judge this on no new timerings (But Beerus's) being created. If Trunks could fix the timeline there would be a new ring. Sadly Trunks will die trying to save a impossible future. |
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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 21, 2016 10:04:28 GMT
Screw time loops, they should send Trunks to Cell's future. That's an Earth that still needs fixing, and Trunks could fit in if they still don't try to find god damned New Namek.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 21, 2016 23:20:39 GMT
Screw time loops, they should send Trunks to Cell's future. That's an Earth that still needs fixing, and Trunks could fit in if they still don't try to find god damned New Namek. Even worse is that GoCo (Goku and Company. Lol) used Namek's dragon balls to wish piccolo back after that Frieza shit... so why not tell Trunks where is Namek? Dick move Goku. |
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 22, 2016 4:55:37 GMT
How awesome would it have been had Trunks and Mai just stayed in the main universe. Super is already changing so much they might as well just not even try to make things line up with the manga anymore.
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Post by Android 13 on Nov 22, 2016 15:41:28 GMT
How awesome would it have been had Trunks and Mai just stayed in the main universe. Super is already changing so much they might as well just not even try to make things line up with the manga anymore. Considering how much at this point Super contradicts Z and the manga, it should not be considered canon anymore.I don't care if Toriyama is making the story directly, although seeing that manga and anime differ from each other and all Dragon Ball Youtubers's understanding for canon is different, this is making fun of the story to a huge extend already.Super should be (and is already) what GT was, a non-canon continuation of Z, nothing more, nothing less.Changing core things that were explicitly stated in the manga/Z just to make a few extra dollars/yens is simply wrong, and should never be allowed.I guess this is what makes finished anime masterpieces, the effort put in them was a one time only, and they don't plan extending the story until the very existence of mankind ends.Things should have ended with GT, or at least they could have had Toriyama stay out of this one, like they are going to do with the Dragon Ball Room. |
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Nov 22, 2016 16:46:39 GMT
How awesome would it have been had Trunks and Mai just stayed in the main universe. Super is already changing so much they might as well just not even try to make things line up with the manga anymore. Considering how much at this point Super contradicts Z and the manga, it should not be considered canon anymore.I don't care if Toriyama is making the story directly, although seeing that manga and anime differ from each other and all Dragon Ball Youtubers's understanding for canon is different, this is making fun of the story to a huge extend already.Super should be (and is already) what GT was, a non-canon continuation of Z, nothing more, nothing less.Changing core things that were explicitly stated in the manga/Z just to make a few extra dollars/yens is simply wrong, and should never be allowed.I guess this is what makes finished anime masterpieces, the effort put in them was a one time only, and they don't plan extending the story until the very existence of mankind ends.Things should have ended with GT, or at least they could have had Toriyama stay out of this one, like they are going to do with the Dragon Ball Room. Agreed. What's with the Dragon Ball Room? If they wanted to make money, they should have just simply picked up some popular fanfiction that made more sense than their story. I don't think with the new age animes that keep their stories short, without fillers in 12 episode seasons or 24 if popular could compete with such bs. Well, as long as they are milking money out of it, they are all game. In my opinion, some other animation company buying the rights to do it would have been great justice. TOEI is just not upto the mark for DB anymore. Others seem to be doing a better job. |
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Post by kinnikuman on Nov 22, 2016 16:54:37 GMT
How awesome would it have been had Trunks and Mai just stayed in the main universe. Super is already changing so much they might as well just not even try to make things line up with the manga anymore. Considering how much at this point Super contradicts Z and the manga, it should not be considered canon anymore.I don't care if Toriyama is making the story directly, although seeing that manga and anime differ from each other and all Dragon Ball Youtubers's understanding for canon is different, this is making fun of the story to a huge extend already.Super should be (and is already) what GT was, a non-canon continuation of Z, nothing more, nothing less.Changing core things that were explicitly stated in the manga/Z just to make a few extra dollars/yens is simply wrong, and should never be allowed.I guess this is what makes finished anime masterpieces, the effort put in them was a one time only, and they don't plan extending the story until the very existence of mankind ends.Things should have ended with GT, or at least they could have had Toriyama stay out of this one, like they are going to do with the Dragon Ball Room. And to be fair you could say the same about Z to dragon ball. Piccolo is a Demon not some slug person, Dr Flappe was the inventor of the androids, Goku is a monkey boy not a Alien. Bulma and Yamcha are one true Pair... WTF in dropping Launch... Akira does this all the time, just enjoy the ride is my best advice. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 22, 2016 16:59:44 GMT
This is different though. DBS is basically a huge filler, unlike GT. GT at least parted some years after the ACTUAL ENDING OF DBZ. Some people keep forgetting DBS is inbetween Buu saga and the actual epilogue, therefore being reduced to a huge filler, Garlick Jr-like saga.
Red SSJ, Blue SSJ, Pink SSJ, Half Blue SSJ... all filler transformations which would make the end of Z basically meaningless if they were to be considered as serious canon. But it is not. Otherwise, why would they be so happy to see Kid Buu's reincarnation when they have seen 4 new multicolored transformations on top of that, and also know multiple gods of destruction?
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Post by kinnikuman on Nov 22, 2016 17:09:04 GMT
This is different though. DBS is basically a huge filler, unlike GT. GT at least parted some years after the ACTUAL ENDING OF DBZ. Some people keep forgetting DBS is inbetween Buu saga and the actual epilogue, therefore being reduced to a huge filler, Garlick Jr-like saga. Red SSJ, Blue SSJ, Pink SSJ, Half Blue SSJ... all filler transformations which would make the end of Z basically meaningless if they were to be considered as serious canon. But it is not. Otherwise, why would they be so happy to see Kid Buu's reincarnation when they have seen 4 new multicolored transformations on top of that, and also know multiple gods of destruction? It's possible the powers are removed or that this is the ending from Z will be retconned away. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 22, 2016 17:16:39 GMT
Official retcons to crucial things such as an epilogue shouldn't be altered just to appease extended fillers like DBSuper. And if all the powers and developments of DBS are removed, it would only reinforce its status as a mega-filler. It would mean absolutely all that happened in the series, had zero transcendence in the future.
There's simply no easy way out. They've written themselves into a corner for coins.
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Post by Android 13 on Nov 22, 2016 17:34:03 GMT
Considering how much at this point Super contradicts Z and the manga, it should not be considered canon anymore.I don't care if Toriyama is making the story directly, although seeing that manga and anime differ from each other and all Dragon Ball Youtubers's understanding for canon is different, this is making fun of the story to a huge extend already.Super should be (and is already) what GT was, a non-canon continuation of Z, nothing more, nothing less.Changing core things that were explicitly stated in the manga/Z just to make a few extra dollars/yens is simply wrong, and should never be allowed.I guess this is what makes finished anime masterpieces, the effort put in them was a one time only, and they don't plan extending the story until the very existence of mankind ends.Things should have ended with GT, or at least they could have had Toriyama stay out of this one, like they are going to do with the Dragon Ball Room. Agreed. What's with the Dragon Ball Room? If they wanted to make money, they should have just simply picked up some popular fanfiction that made more sense than their story. I don't think with the new age animes that keep their stories short, without fillers in 12 episode seasons or 24 if popular could compete with such bs. Well, as long as they are milking money out of it, they are all game. In my opinion, some other animation company buying the rights to do it would have been great justice. TOEI is just not upto the mark for DB anymore. Others seem to be doing a better job. I don't want to be offensive, but Toei are a piece of shit already.They ruined Toriko, and even though I loved Toriko, after I started reading the manga I found out just how much has been taken away from us.But forget about Toriko, the freaking continuation of Dragon Ball, one of the most successful and influential manga in the world, got destroyed with animation level of a 3 year old kid and plot that makes no sense at all.My only hope is now for what Toei have decided to do, form a team who are going to work only on Dragon Ball in the future, known as Dragon Ball Room.If that fails then I call Dragon Ball dead and in the past, and Toriyama can safely retire.I sure hope by some weird chance he sees these posts in this forum and other forums as well and realize not everything is money. kinnikuman I guess you could say that, but at least Z is an official part of the Dragon Ball manga, and in my canon, since Super is an entirely separate manga, is not canon at all.Also, every decision in Dragon Ball Z didn't contradict the series before to a such an extend as Super is doing it now to Z.Dragon Ball didn't have an ending, which Z fucked up in it's first episode, or at all.This is also based on the fact that I grew up with Dragon Ball Z, but still, the only thing that is kinda like Super is indeed King Piccolo being a Demon, rather than an alien, known as Namekian.But that did indeed explain the existence of the Dragon Balls, so I don't mind it.The only thing that was supposed to be wrong is whenever King Piccolo kills a human, their soul is destroyed (if I am not mistaken), which doesn't allow them to come back to life.And no, I cannot enjoy a ride that makes no sense and makes fun of characters and plots as if it's a parody.But I will continue watching Super next summer just to confirm to myself. Conqueror GengI agree with you, they are playing with fire currently - they want to stick an entire story that hasn't even been hinted before in Z into the Z timeframe, without consequences to the story before that or the ending whatsoever.But the further they dwell into this "God Realm", the further they get away from what is the ending.I don't like where this is going at all, and if they remake the ending of Z just to fit Super and make for example Super Saiyan Blue fight Uub, I will be more than mad. |
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I guess as long as there is money to be made, they will always do it.Can't wait to see what that "Dragon Ball Room" will do for the series.
