Dragon Ball Super General (WARNING: Massive spoilers inside)

I'm in the "they'll retcon DBZ" camp. Undoing all the powerups in Super as kinnikuman suggested might happen would I think be the worst of the two options. I'm not a fan of retcons, but I'd rather the end of DBZ be changed than everything in Super return to DBZ status quo for some arbitrary reason when they've already gone off the beaten path with Gods of Destruction and blue-haired Super Saiyans. The irony is not lost on me, given that every arc has a magical dragon reset things to the status quo at the end.

Besides, Vegeta has already figured out that Kid Buu has been reincarnated in DBS, while in DBZ he was positively clueless about the whole thing so it's already been slightly retconned as it is.

What do you mean DB didn't have a ending? Goku saved earth and grew up, marrying Chichi... Everyone knows all series end with a wedding episode And actually it really messed up Piccolo's kids. Did the "demon" king birth them over the TMNT sewer or something. It didn't explain the dragonballs but moved the goalpost. Now alien snails can make it but they don't explain how they made them. Z is just as bad as super, just more awesome... If you want a none plot holed series watch my show. Kinnikuman (And Ultimate muscle) Are much better in keeping there story lines straight. 

I think what kinnikuman is saying is that Piccolo was meant to be demon and Kami a god. Their alien heritage was later information Toriyama came up with, which does change what was established in DB and it not too long ago from when both characters were introduced as well and took the series into crazy heavy sci-fic orientated series. Kami's alien appearance was mostly likely intended to cast him apart from the other characters to emphasis he was a god. Piccolo being born from the evil he cast off from himself and taking his appearance is what made him a demon. The origin alone sounds like something you would hear from folklore. In a way Kami himself technically wouldn't be seen as a demon at all and Piccolo being a corrupted version of himself is what would make him a demon or at least that was probably the original intention. Even god making magical items like Dragon Balls fits with Kami's original god like origins. Gods making talismans or treasure that humans search for fits. It fits with DB's roots, which was based of Chinese folklore Journey West.

Kami/Piccolo being made into aliens fits with us now I think most of us grew up watching Z before DB. Had when been older and as critical was we are now when that happened we may have been just as hard on Z as we are on Super or at least that is where I think kinnikuman is going. If so it is a fair argument, because DB and Z eras have very different tones. Z may really only get a free pass because most of the world outside of Japan were introduced to Z anime before the original or the original didn't do so hot first, but when Z came it became immensely popular. Veya is arguing that Super feels more like a fan fiction because people writing it are long time fans and I can see where Veya is coming from, but I think the real reason Super is bothering many of us is because it hasn't changed.

Super is basically doing everything Toriayam did, which was fly off the seat of his pants, no long term plan in sight, and doing whatever they think is entertaining. I read an interview where Toriyama said that was how he wrote. It worked well back in the day with DB, but people grew up, tastes changed other Shonen writers started making more long term plans, put more attention into their stories, set more hard pressed rules for their universe. The tropes and elements DB popularized have become so main stream people are seeing flaws in them more and have become more critical. That's the thing. Most of us want DB to have changed or adapted to us like more modern Shonen. I think the people who are enjoying Super realize this has been DB's purpose and are more forgiving of it and accept it for what it is, while the people who can't are the ones who want or was expecting DB to change with the times. Neither is bad or wrong, but it is coming down to tastes. DB is hugely successful franchise there is no incentive to change since the large DB resurgence happened after Kai anime came out and proved DB was still a money maker. If it ain't broke why fix it/ Unless DB Super starts to tank I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon.

I think the main problem of DBS is something that many sequels suffer from. I don't mean the usual sequel but the revival of old franchise many years after its completion. A studio is desperate or wants to take the easy route so they decide to resurrect a successful old franchise instead of risking a new one. For example, last year Toei brought back Dragonball, Sailor Moon, and Digimon (continuation of the first season). Is it a coincidence that the studio just happened to come up with great ideas for sequels for three classic franchises in the same year? No, their main motivation was because their newer series weren't doing so well so they needed something that had a better chance at being successful.

Every story has a beginning, middle, and the end. The reason it ends is because the characters have been developed, are comfortable with their lives, overcome their struggles, etc and there's not really anything left to tell. The problem is when there's not much of a story left to tell and the studio is "forcing" a continuation then usually all they have to rely on is mainly fan service. That's not necessarily a bad thing because it's fun to see your favorite characters again but it doesn't make for a worthwhile or memorable continuation. Hollywood has been doing that a lot recently. I liked in the new Vacation how one of the characters said "You just want to redo your vacation from 30 years ago?" and the dad replied "The new vacation will stand on its own". It was a fun movie but like many other recent sequels, the best parts were the cameos of the original cast members and fan service. There wasn’t really anything memorable or that stood out about them other than that.

By the end of Dragonball, everyone had already been developed and there wasn’t really anywhere to go with the characters.
Goku: Dragonball was his coming of age story and showing how he grew up to become a great hero. He continued that in DBZ and eventually become more of a teacher wanting to pass the torch to the next generation.
Gohan: One of the working titles for DBZ was Dragonball: Gohan’s Great Adventure because it was his coming of age story. Sometime during the Buu saga Toriyama decided that Gohan’s wasn’t fit for the role of successor but he still had him overcome his fears and eventually settle down.
Goten/Trunks: Unfortunately they were introduced during the last saga so that didn’t give them a lot of time to develop. During EoZ, we saw that they weren’t interested in fighting or freely joining the tournament so it seems that Toriyama also decided that they weren’t fit for the role.
Humans: Krillin settled down and raised a family and the others also retired from fighting by the Cell saga.
Piccolo & Vegeta: One of the best things about DBZ was their development throughout the series. Both characters were at peace and comfortable with their lives by the end.

I honestly don’t know what DBS could do with the characters unless they start making up new character flaws or forgetting their development and re-teaching them old lessons. They tried that in RoF and that didn't work out too well. That’s also a problem that GT and many fan sequels had in my opinion. Besides the lazy storylines and plotholes, the worst part of GT for me was that it felt more like filler than an actual sequel. There wasn’t any character development that I recall and it felt like a few one-off movie ideas strung together.

I think that might’ve been why Toriyama decided to have DBS take place within a timeskip instead of making it a full-fledged sequel. In a way, DBS feels more like an epilogue. Everyone is retired and enjoying their lives while Goku and Vegeta continue their friendly rivalry as they grow stronger together. Even if Gohan becomes a SSJB or Piccolo gets his own Namek God form, I don’t think it would lead to any new development and it would just be fan service. It would just be cool to see them fight again but that’s it. That’s something I’ve accepted about DBS and pretty much all sequels to old franchises. I don’t expect them to ever live up to the originals but I can enjoy the fan service they have to offer.


I don’t think fans would’ve had a problem with it since the reveal was for a good reason and helped move the story forward. At the time, King Piccolo was the biggest threat the Earth had faced and his reincarnation/son was even more powerful than the God of the Earth. Revealing that Goku and Piccolo were aliens was a way to up the scale and introduce more powerful opponents from other planets. The alternative would’ve been to have random humans or other Earthlings turn out to be more powerful than Kami without anyone noticing before. DBS follows this trend by making the world bigger after declaring someone as the strongest. Buu was the strongest villain in the universe so they introduced Gods and characters from other universes.

The problem with DBS is that several of the retcons serve no purpose and feel like they’ve been changed for the sake of it. The reason is likely because Toriyama has forgotten so much of the manga. Toriyama has said in interviews that he does his best to keep the story consistent but he admits that he has bad memory so as a result he might overlook or forget details. He’s definitely going to forget more as time went on. In a recent interview with the author of One Piece, Mercenary Tao was brought up and Toriyama didn’t even remember who that character was. There are many other examples in recent interviews.

It’s understandable that he wouldn’t remember everything but what bothers me to be honest is when it’s treated like that’s how it’s always been. Sure he has always had trouble remembering every detail but anything having to do with recollection will usually by default be worse and less consistent as more time passes. For example, let’s say I get an 80% on my test at the end of this semester. In 20 years, I decide to take the same test again and get 50%. Sure, someone could claim that my performance was basically the same because I didn’t remember everything 100% but it’s clear I remembered more back then since it was still fresh on my mind.

I would quote a line I heard. (i guess Supernatural)

"Endings are hard. Any chapped-ass monkey with a keyboard can poop out a beginning, but endings are impossible. You try to tie up every loose end, but you never can. The fans are always gonna bitch. There's always gonna be holes. And since it's the ending, it's all supposed to add up to something. I'm telling you, they're a raging pain in the ass."

To be fair, we can apply a Schrodinger's cat here. We can consider Zeno's power to be both able to destroy a multiverse and not able to destroy a multiverse... at least till AT says otherwise. My two cents. Feel free to disagree and have an opinion (I say that with smart-assery, not sarcasm )

Herms is a DBZ/S translator I believe.

I don't know if it would've worked to introduce more threats from the Earth to be honest. In other series like One Piece for example the world still isn't fully explored so there could be stronger characters in other parts of the world. In Dragonball, they already established world-renowned martial artists and King Piccolo was the biggest threat the Earth had faced. He was so powerful that no one was able to defeat him and one of the most strongest martial artists at the time has to sacrifice his life just to seal him. If there was someone out there more powerful than Kami and King Piccolo then there would have to be a good explanation how they got that strong and why they decided to threaten the world now. That's a common problem that fanfics run into it. It's not impossible to introduce stronger villains from Earth but I don't think it would've been as successful as upping the scale and introducing threats from other planets.

I don't think it would've been a problem for Western audiences if we had watched Dragonball first and then DBZ. We've seen this before in other franchises so we're probably more used to it than Japanese audiences. In Marvel and DC comics, the heroes started off protecting their own cities but the story expanded to include aliens, gods, magic, etc. I think the same happened with TMNT and GI Joe but it's been along time since I've watched those. What's interesting is that Toriyama was told that he would fail if he went into space in a shonen manga but he tried it anyway. From the Daizenshuu 4:

Speaking of Piccolo, did you think from the beginning of his background as a Namekian alien?
Of course, I didn’t think that at all (laughs). The Saiyans were like that as well. When I thought up Goku’s tail and the Ōzaru, I didn’t think Goku was an alien or anything. Piccolo either. Because I thought that up when God came out.

Mostly afterwards, I thought it through so that it would be consistent. For example, there’s the chair that Planet Namek’s Eldest sat in. That was mostly the same as the chair that Piccolo Daimaō had sat in when he first appeared. It was just missing the skulls.

I see! Come to think of it, it did have the same shape.
I thought since Piccolo Daimaō surely still had some memories of when he was on Planet Namek, wouldn’t he make that kind of chair? So I thought up the shapes of Planet Namek’s buildings and spaceships using the design of Piccolo Daimaō’s chair. When they went to Planet Namek, I was told that you’d fail if you went into space in a shōnen manga. So when thinking up the background for Planet Namek, I tried to make it precisely consistent.


To be fair, I don't think retconning Goku and Piccolo to be aliens was ignoring prior established facts. Neither one knew their original so it doesn't really contradict anything that they were revealed to be aliens. Those types of retcons are common in fiction and they're different than just forgetting facts or events. Some of the plotholes in DBS aren't because Toriyama is purposely trying to retcon or explain something but that he simply forgot the original details. That happened sometimes in the manga because it was a long story and he wasn't able to remember everything.


I hope it does but with each passing saga, I get the feeling it will end before they meet Uub. Toriyama decided to have BoG take place before EoZ and it still seems to hold true for the rest of DBS since there's barely any time between sagas. It's like they're trying to cram in as much story as possible by having each saga take place a few months apart.

This is another difference between DBS and DB/Z. A lot of shonen animes have the main characters remain the same age for hundreds of episodes. I read in an interview (still looking for it) that Toriyama was sort of a pioneer at the time because he wanted to have timeskips and show his characters growing up. Dragonball was a coming of age story for Goku and DBZ was for Gohan. It's five or six years since the Buu saga but Goten, Trunks, and Marron look the same. They're no feeling of anyone growing up which is why it seemed more like an epilogue than a sequel.

EDIT
Ya know the Goku Black saga would've been a good opportunity to have a timeskip after EoZ. At the end of the manga, Goten and Trunks have been slacking off and had to be forced to join the World Tournament. If the Goku Black saga took place after that then meeting Future Trunks would've been good motivation for them to start training again and take their roles as protectors of the Earth more seriously. Since it takes place before, the interaction between Present and Future Trunks is ultimately meaningless because Present Trunks grows up not caring about training anyway.


Herms is one of the main translators on Kanzenshuu. To be honest, I don't know if it's been confirmed how much Zeno destroyed in the timeline. I'm assuming it's at least the entire U7 since when it showed Zeno floating in space, there weren't any stars or "blackness" (dark matter?) in the background.

To be fair we only know Earth was fully explored now because of the route Toriayama chose. However, at the time the series came out Earth wasn't fully explored and it could have gone down different roads or fleshed out in ways that could have kept the story alive past Piccolo. The only real limitation was Toriyama's imagination. King Piccolo was the biggest threat that the world faced at the time. Piccolo having the Earth on its knees and being so strong that Roshi's master had to contain him was impressive, but that was centuries ago as well. Newer warriors like Goku and Tien had emerged. They proved to have the potential to reach Piccolo's level. As we know from the World Tournaments that newer fighters can just appear out of nowhere and prove to be just as strong. For example there was no hint of Tien at all until he showed up. Goku and Krillin were nobodies who just showed up and took the world by storm with their skills. That is not to say every warrior on Earth will be a prodigy like they were, but it does show there are amazing people out there who could rise.

There could have been ways introducing stronger enemies than Piccolo born from Earth could have gone wrong, but I don't think it would require a lot of work either. Not everyone enters the World Tournaments. Tien is a perfect example of how powerful fighter could miss a past tournament and show up in the next one to upset the status quo. Just as Tien missed the 21st tournament it is equally possible that a warrior who proved to be as strong or stronger than Piccolo could have shown up out of nowhere with a explanation that they just hadn't shown up yet. The world is huge. I for one wouldn't find it odd if some martial artist or power never entered the tournaments showed up later and proved stronger than Piccolo or Goku. Someone might ask why didn't he help out against Piccolo, but Piccolo was only in power for a few days before he was stopped. Who is to say the new guy wasn't on his way, but Goku beat Piccolo first. If he or she didn't enter the 23rd tournament it would explain why they didn't fight Piccolo then either. How could Kami not know about this person? The answer is also simple Kami isn't omniscience. He had no idea Goku was an alien or even knew an alien ship landed on Earth during his reign as Kami. He didn't even know about Goku until Goku beat Piccolo the first time. It wouldn't be hard for more warriors like Goku to emerge that Kami didn't know about.

Raditz didn't even need to be an alien. Goku's long lost older brother showing up could have easily been used to show Goku came from a family of powerful warriors who were evil. Goku's backstory was so murky it could have even been established Gohan had history with them and took Goku away from them to raise him free of their evil influences, which would explain why he isolated Goku and never had him enter the real world to socialize. Goku having an evil family would explain why they wouldn't fight Piccolo since they would embrace his new world. The tails could have been explained as them being a special clan/family of people who can transform into ape demons or whatever. Let's face it DB world had talking animals and three eyed humans without anyone really batting an eye. It's not like Toriyama would have needed a in depth explanation for why they had tails, while still technically being humans.

Western audience is hard to pin down. Marvel/DC for example it is true that newer elements come in that change the status quo, but it was done gradually too. With DC it was many years before the heroes were even decided to exist in the same universe. Batman and Superman existed on their own for a while before they teamed up. Superman's case he was always an alien. Marvel had always been cool with allowing different heroes to co-exist and opened the door to the world being larger than it was. Manga/anime are less likely to take these kinds of risks. People in Naruto fandom got upset when the final villain hinted to having origins in space when it really contradicted nothing established that much, but felt it betrayed the spirit of the series. It is hard to really know how they would have taken it. Back in the 90s many people in the western world loved DBZ, but it a lot of people also admit it was the first or one of the first manga/anime they encountered, so a lot of it was new and they loved it.

However, now many of the same people have experienced other manga/anime and have come to realization that DBZ wasn't as great as they remembered. More people who now prefer DB to Z are coming out. I just watched a video on youtube with someone like that. He still loves DBZ he admits it wasn't as great as he remembered and he ended up loving DB more overall because he felt the fighting had more skill and techniques felt more unique compared to Z. I think it is possible had DB been a huge hit and people loved it then Z got brought in  that people may have been more critical of Z. At least I think the older crowd might have been. If not then I think after other manga/anime got imported to the west that Z would have been seen less favorably to DB as well among people. I think a big reason DB can still continue even today is that its storytelling hasn't changed drastically. Newer threats coming to be just because has always been a thing. Toriayama's memory has been a problem. I don't think he has ever been that into the lore to care as much as we fans. That is nothing against him, but not everyone can be Tolkien, where they create a whole universe, write things down in a bible, and try damn hard to keep to it. You are probably right that his memory problem is hurting him now, since it has been decades plus. It's not like Super doesn't have problems the original manga didn't have. Resurrection F was pure cash grab. The only reason to bring Freeza back in gimmicky and forced way was because he was a popular villain in the series and new Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form being a recolored SS form was most likely to sell merchandise. I also think Toriayama's style in general lent itself up for these type of problems to emerge on their own. 

What i feel is if you want to add new sagas, don't drag back the characters that finally got their endings. Start with Gohans life, as DBZ was essentially coming of age for Gohan. Develop Goten and Trunks as the next true successors. Maybe introduce new characters through World Tournaments and make jokes about the times when Goku was around and how it was easy. Maybe bring some Gokuness in Goten (Would help in boosting him. He's like invisible in DBS and turns up only for fusion dances) the interaction with F. Trunks would help P. Trunks grow up responsibly. Vegeta mentoring them maybe show some new kind of adventure in this post Buu world. Maybe go to a new world and discover stuff. (I liked the other world tournament thing. Maybe expand on Pikkon and other guys. Wonder what's Grand Kai up to?)