Universe 7 General/How strong is Gast Carcolh (currently)

Or maybe because Cell Jr was weak enough not to do serious damage, but strong enough to actually bitchslap him along the way.

All I was really getting at was that someone can’t be at their max effort without their aura unleashed 
One can have their aura unleashed while still holding back
You guys disagree 
thats fine 

This was your original argument:
I read that to mean he was suppressed against veg and broly and then powered up to his real max against hatchiyack. That seemed like a legit argument if that's how auras work but now you're saying it was just a greater level of effort so are you now claiming he simply wasnt trying while he was furousiously fighting for his life later with utter panic and shock on his face? Or that just trying really hard can make your max power level double?

Like some of the others have stated, yes hatchiyack was probably meant to be far stronger than ssj3 (super buu perhaps) but if gast spent 15 seconds charging up a huge attack and hit hatchiyack at a particularly vulnerable moment, point blank then its entirely reasonable for him to still be just plain old ssj3 while doing so. Keep in mind that ssj3 goku put everything he had into an attack that super buu + vegeta admitted would have killed him had he not been microscopic.

Gast had trouble with a low SSJ3 level opponent, him being anywhere near the ballpark of SSJ Vegeto is absurd

Andres problem is he would never be able to reduce Vegeta to dust like he did to Hatchiyack. Hatchiyack was basically just a DDoS loop that only had 3 commands:
-Scream
-Charge
-Fire

Over and over and over. Rinse and repeat.

That's ultimately the real reason Gast could win and not his PL/attack. If Hatchiyack had gone fighting the traditional manner and showed some intelligence (and even techniques of the Ghosts stored) this would have looked even worse than Buutenks vs. Gohan.

Vegeta has far more variety of movements and attacks. He could only do what he did to Hatchiyack, if Vegeta stayed entirely immobile. But in this case, Vegeta would be able to entirely dust Gast the same way if he just stayed put too. Considering there's actual evidence of Vegeta and Gast being closer in power than either is to Hatchiyack, I think it'd probably even be easier for SSJ3 Vegeta to dust Gast with a big attack. And the opposite is also true. Gast would dust Vegeta with half the charge time if he stayed put.

However saying this is pointless because it's impossible. Vegeta and Gast aren't simple DDoS loops like Hatchiyack was. They can both dodge, punch, block, feint, run, fly, kick, grapple, send blades, rush, etc..

Knowing all this, I am now sure we will get a really good fight of Bra SSJ1 vs. Gast. But our green man will die pathetically and helplessly once she goes SSJ2.



Also, I am sorry to say this but your whole paragraph about Vegeto wondering about him (also did that about Cell, and this was before he reached Mystic Levels only THROUGH MAJIN), stopping Broly's blasts (which even base Trunks and Kakarotto could stop), stopping Buu (which he did not, if Buu had actual intentions to fight he'd have been dead) etc etc... have all already been totally debunked at least 4 times in this thread.

As for Vegeta having to struggle to destroy Raichi's shield... Man, you know this is very unfair. Vegeta was profusely bleeding, had spent his time fighting over 100 opponents (the last one close to his power), his guts were falling out at the moment, was using a recently discovered form he was not used to, and on top of that his power was about to run out. Gast was just fresh at the start of a battle. This is a bad comparison.

I'd also argue going to SSJ1 Vegetto levels when your starting point was between Semi-Perfect Cell and Super Vegeta, is impossible to justify reasonably. Even justifying the jump from that S-PC/Super Vegeta to Super Buu levels (which I think is Gast's current power) already requires mildly complicated, shark jumping mental gymnastics

I said this in the shoutbox too, but I think Namek's regeneration is good enough, specially when the power rises, it takes less effort. Piccolo in Buu saga just healed from his head after his statue was broken. He did not look too vexed after it and even did clothes' beam on himself, only to be showing joking around with Krilin and Trunks right after.

If Piccolo's regen is that good, without thaaat much visible effort, then Gast's should be even better. It still should not be as good as Cell's though. Much less the one from Buu.

Not trying to rip on your old post but just to add more minor points to the major items that khan already pointed out:

You put jr as "the very highest ssj2 tier" but I'm not sure what the evidence is for that. U18 merely stated that the jr was stronger than the (pre-suicide) perfect cell that they knew. I would put him at entry ssj2 unless you have some other info I dont.

Dpk is "a high ssj" but I put him more at a mid range ssj. Only thing we have to compare is a fresh and majined dpk fighting evenly with a tired and damaged north. We know that all three kais (without telekinesis) were losing to dabura and he was roughly on par with (pre-suicide) perfect cell. All that together suggests to me super vegeta at best.

"Stopped zen buu" - yeah, using magic.

"Gast was faster than broly"... I dont like the broly part one bit. I need to see the next u3 special for this whole part to make sense since when this broly died, he was not a very strong ssj as we could see entry ssj winning against him. Sure a lot of that was meant to be because of his fighting skills but they couldn't have been that far apart for vegeta to be winning. And yet we see broly punch and damage gast who is minimum ssj3. Some thing smells fishy here.


Anyways, dont want anyone to think the fight narration I was talking about with vegetto was how I thought it went down.

Here's my breakdown of the fights that justifies ssj3 all the way:

FIGHT 1

An entry ssj2 knocks down a suppressed gast. Gast gets up and powers up to his max (ssj3). We see a reaction shot from uub and goku they are both impressed but uub appears more than a little afraid/wary of his power. This makes sense since I dont believe uub had ever reached this level with his kaioken until his buu fight so it's a sign that he's stronger than uub but not goku (aka ssj3). Then Gast proceeds to block his attacks before getting bored and then tanks a ki blast (from an entry ssj2) which makes sense for a ssj3 to do so. He then lazers his core which had more to do with his knowledge and skills than his pl.

FIGHT 2

Gast remains powered up as ssj3. Effortlessly avoids everything from a mid ssj. Whistling starts and he tries to fight with the handicap as a challenge (more on that later). He then ends it with a finger flick which makes total sense for a ssj3 to flick k.o. a mid ssj1.

FIGHT 3

Still powered up ssj3 gast breaks the shell that the weakened and wounded ssj3 vegeta did although with way more style. He then has a blow for blow, damage for damage fight with ghost ssj3 vegeta clearly setting his power level exactly. Broly enters and having an equal plus broly (whatever his pl actually is) quickly becomes too much. Gast wins due to his mad regen skills coupled with dumb luck from broly distraction.

PART 2

Like khan said better than me, hatch stands there and takes a huge charged up blast point blank. As I pointed out with the goku vs u4 super buu (vegeta absorbed) fight that its totally reasonable for hatch to be even mystic tier and still get one shotted this way by a ssj3.
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So about the "looking for a challenge" that keeps being thrown around to justify that gast keeps handicapping himself. I dont think this is correct at all. In the jr fight it is clear that gast was not looking for a challenge. He powered up way higher than Jr and just f'd with him for a bit before ending it. With raichi he was clearly fighting for his life the entire time once vegeta showed up. The only instance of the challenge was with dpk and that makes more sense if you look at it as gast discovered a weakness about himself and decided he need to try to overcome the weakness. I know the dialog reads otherwise but it simply makes sense that he choose to fight through his weakness this one time cause he knew it was the ideal time to experience it when his opponent is so weak and not a true threat at all.

Dont disagree with your points and I'm certainly firmly in the ssj3 camp, however, I have to question your logic on this particular statement as we see gast containing buu with some type of magic apparantly. Did he do this to fat to win or did he learn it after, who knows.

Imo, I dont think ssj3 can defeat fat buu regardless of goku's statement otherwise. Of course another way to look at it is how was buu released? As I recall babidi was worried that the power to hatch him had an effect on how strong he might be (too lazy to double check the manga). Also how was he born? Did Gast have a tough fight with dabura? Did he fight a ssj2 vegeta when he was only ssj2 levels at the time? If gast was ssj3 at the time of babidi it doesnt seem like there'd be much in the way of brutal fighting going on. More dpk finger flicking than anything else.