Universe 7 General/How strong is Gast Carcolh (currently)

ok, having an aura indicates a power up of any particular level not necessarily your max but you can't be at your max without an aura, correct?

So with jr he walks in as lets say ssj+ and then decides to power up to ssj2+. He then puts some effort into blocking Jr before dropping his aura (but maintaining ssj2+) and then jr wears out and he gets bored so jr does a big ki blast on him and he somehow tanks it with no damage which should be impossible as we see weakling super vegeta blow away a huge chunk from a suppressed but far superior perfect cell using a similar blast (but whatevers on that).

Apparantly after the match he maintains this ssj2+ pl and walks into the dpk fight with it and easily finger flicks him into a k.o... all still makes sense.

Then in his third fight he walks in as ssj2+ and never powers up more but somehow fights evenly with ssj3 vegeta? Or are you suggesting he powered up more in his bull pin before the match and then dropped the aura before he entered the ring?

Almost.

 I expect that he did fluctuate his power off screen before his fight with Raichi 

 If we were to find out that he didn’t then that would be just a little weird 
 Everyone powers up 
 Even Goku and Vegeto

That's a good question outside of this thread but what do these fighters typically maintain when not in active battle. I'm of the understanding that the ability to raise and lower your ki is supposed to be a rare ability. Meaning that members of the ginyu force walk around 24/7 at 40k or whatever it is. That would mean base vegetto walking around at his max base isn't really an odd thing but rather the normal thing I would assume just as it's likely that base goku is just naturally at his bases max all the time unless he chooses to suppress it. Obviously transformations dont apply to what were talking about here and mystic gohan is an exception since he merely appears in base when he's normal and just with an aura when he "transforms." Its kind of a question of is gast powering up to his max and then relaxed when he's not fighting or is he suppressing his real power to stay low key in the tourney and then merely returning to normal as the challenges become more difficult? TBH, not really sure on this since there seems to be evidence on both sides.

According to you (not me) his power should be even more suppressed against SSJ3 Vegeta, since no aura (you are the one using the auras as an absolute power clue, I'm not)

So even according to yourself, what you say makes no sense. How can a man exerts his power against someone who should be a worm to him, but doesn't to someone who lands closer to him in the gap? You're using empty headcanon at this point "MAYBE he powered up before". Well, MAYBE he had already powered up a bit and then powered down when he released his aura, since you know, he fought someone even stronger without even releasing it?

Look man, at this point you're just grasping straws because you thought Gast just looked so awesome with cliché Sasuke/Kenshiro/Jiren-demeanor at the start of the comic, and thought that because of that, he automatically had to be SSJ2 Vegetto level or some shit, but at this advanced rate (combined with specials and all) it's clear that didn't hold up. It either was retconned or just meant to mislead people.

What things ARE (and not only MAY BE) as of now, is that he isn't far too stronger than the average SSJ3/Super boo.

Ashanark I did not know you were in the "Gast is as strong as Vegetto" camp now. During his fight vs. Raichi you were part of the group that was anticipating/speculating a lot about it and also ended up bitterly disappointed (just like me, Axalon , Dr. Wheelo ). One of the points I remember we all had in common (besides thinking the philosophical/characterization element of the battle was grossly underused) was that that power-levelwise (at least before Hatchiyack appeared) the fight was accurate in regards to our predictions and perceptions. What made you change your opinion since back then? It's not like Gast has done plenty of new feats lately he's away at the Parseck planet. You had concerns similar to us and not mere disappointment in perceived deflated power level like Xeno Black had.

It means almost nothing other than the user is releasing energy visibly.

Yes, but this is not what I am arguing. But if for you "aura = power up" and "no aura = no power up" then it means that regardless if he's only powering up at 5%, someone who is releasing aura can't possibly be weaker than someone who is not releasing aura at all (not powering up) which means 0%.

Otherwise you are saying 0 >>> 5, while simultaneously arguing 5 >>> 0.

All I am saying is that auras are not a 100% accurate indicator, and that the main root of all your arguments is that you just can't accept someone so-Jiren/Kenshiro like, is this "weak" (using this veeeeeeery liberally here since SSJ3 is NOT weak AT ALL, especially not in DBM).

Your initial "proof" that he was unimpressed by Broly's blast got debunked by itself 2 pages later, showing Trunks slashing it calmly, Kakarotto kicking them as if they were footballs, Bojack and Cell standing idly, Majin Buu screeching like an idiot with open arms, etc etc.

Your second proof was also debunked by itself in next panels. The expression of Goku (at a mere SSJ stage) was not any more worried than that of Gast. And in the meanwhile Bra (at SSJ) just appeared smirking.

Your third proof (the Gohan situation) while not fully debunked is also sketchy due to the nature of the relationship and interaction between Cell/Gast and Gohan. Cell sees a threat in Gohan because they're opponents and had issues in the past. Gast does not see a threat because he only met Gohan once in namek when he was a kid and the interaction between them was cordial. Gohan is a good dude. Gast is also for the most part a good fellow too. However Cell is fucking evil. This can't be overlooked.

Then we also see him getting sucker punched in the first round (which does not mean much) and powering up right after. Then the Cell Jr tries to punch and attack him. No avail, but notice the fact Gast is blocking all attacks. He isn't letting himself get punched in the face again (very different than he did with King Piccolo). Then he proceeds to surgically destroy him with precision. Not in the "I overwhelm you phisically" way, but much like a sharpshooter would do:


Then at the third round we see him going TOE to TOE with a SSJ3 fighter, in what could be called the most even fight of all DBM. When other fighter of (presumably) SSJ3 tier appears (Broly), he starts to be truly overwhelmed:



With full confidence of no "maybes", "ifs", "buts", he is just not as strong as you're making him to be. Super Buu level is right. Maybe Mystic Gohan if we push him really far. I think he's similar to U18 Goku and Vegeta though. Higher than SSJ3 Goku was in Buu saga, but not far stronger than Super Buu.

I'd put both Gast Carcolh and U18 Goku as somewhere in between Kid Buu and Super Buu. Stronger than normal Buu saga SSJ3 but not so far beyond. Vegeta possibly is near there too considering all the smack he has been talking since the comic started.

I do not believe that no aura equals no power up
I believe that no aura equals no big power up
For Example,
when Vegeta got his last zenkai before fighting original form Frieza, he powered up, because he was reaching new levels; the gap was pretty big

Then we later see Frieza mock Goku by telling him that he hasn’t been using even half of his power
then he powers up to 50% without an aura
so aura = big power up

Later Frieza goes to 100% and he sports an aura

No aura = either no power up or small power up

Like I said before one can sport an aura and not be at full power
the aura just shows that they are exerting constant effort 
so a constant 100% effort would = aura
Or at least that’s my opinion 
You can disagree, I just want to make sure you understand what I’m saying and that you don’t quote me incorrectly 


Also, I understand why you feel like the three arguments I had with him not reacting like he was worried are debunked....
But
His eyes were closed
lmao

Then you're basically admitting this whole debate was pointless. You've basically admitted that Gast did not do a big power up to fight Vegetta (at SSJ3 level)... but he did a big power up (because he released aura) when fighting against a Cell Jr. You're basically telling me 1 >> 10.

Arguing this so fervently, while doing mental gymnastics as to why Gast was the only exception is really contradictory and does not help your cause. Just admitting this would save you all this trouble. Problem is, that'd also force you to admit that the fact Gast did not release an aura vs. Broly and Vegeta, does not necessarily mean he was holding back either. If you do not admit as much, then you'd be basically saying he was at max power vs. Cell Jr because well... he actually powered up with sparks n shitz... Either way, none of the outcomes land him near SSJ Vegetto, possibly not even his base.

By the way, notice how this thread exists since 2017 and is 9 pages long. All arguments you've used until now have already been used by others (such as Xeno Black ) and have already been debunked since long ago. So we are just repeating this ad nauseam without adding anything new.

You will see the same arguments you're using, and the same arguments I'm using to debunk you done by different users if you go a couple pages back. In reality not much can be done since there haven't been battles or struggles including him lately (due to him being absent at the Majin rebellion).

However in his latest battle he nearly got killed by 2 SSJ3 level opponents (and he was visibly pressed and damaged because of it), and only survived because he played hide and seek. And I'm afraid 2 SSJ3 level opponents, even if one is invulnerable, someone stronger than a SSJ2 Vegetto they can't defeat.



So again, he had a big power up to fight against Cell Jr (but also conveniently holding back), but didn't to fight a much stronger opponent who can just karate chop the head of the same Cell Jr (whom he had to power up against)? Eh, this is god damn DBS logic.

It's not just that I disagree, and I understand what you're saying. However that I understand it doesn't mean it isn't outright wrong, which it is.

Hardly an important factor when most fighters can read energy. I'd be impressed if it was Freeza or A17 doing it, but in the case of a namekian who can read energy it isn't impressive at all. Nor would it be on Goku, Vegeta, Kakarotto, Bojack, Cell, etc... Not even Krilin or Tien.

In any case, he was not the only one who had his eyes closed:


Is he SSJ2 Vegetto level and holding back too?

Rereading this is giving me a brain aneurysm lol. Stop tagging me Conqueror Geng, it hurts to see how wrong I was. Though to be honest, I would do anything to see Gast back to the levels I once perceived him. I think I conveyed very well how I came to that conclusion years ago.

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse but isn't what we've seen until now enough?
-All his badassery during the Broly fight got trivialized during the same chapter. Gast deflects a Broly attack >> even base Kakarotto and Trunks do the same. Gast is with eyes closed >> So is Majin Buu, and without even attempting to block anything. Only gets moderately surprised when he sees SSJ2 Vegetto >>> SSJ Goku acts just the same, meanwhile SSJ Bra is just smirking
-Had to block the attacks of a SSJ2 opponent
-Got matched closely by a SSJ3 fighter (Vegeta)
-Got overwhelmed entirely by 2 SSJ3 fighters and had to play hide and seek to get away from them
-He nearly got eviscerated by Hatchiyack, who at best was Buutenks tier, despite he did not even get directly impacted by his attack


The only feat that could be understandably make people believe he was SSJ2 Vegetto tier, was containing Buu. However... Buu, the Kaioshins and Piccolo explicitly stated it was some weird magic shit and not raw power. It also did not manage to seal the entirety of Buu since he was giving gifts to everyone the same night. Buu did not want to enter Gast's room but this was not due to fear of his power. It's because this would have been as stupid as escaping prison and then visiting the home of a prison warden when he's off shift.