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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 7, 2017 23:23:36 GMT
I just thought another reason of why Potara is inferior to Metamoru:
Kibitoshin Kibitoshin was a potara fusion between East Kaioshin (able to one shot Freeza, so at least A16 level?) + Kibito (likely a bit weaker, perhaps close to SSJ Goten or Trunks.)
By advocating this view of "potara >> metamoru", then Kibitoshin would have been stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks!!!!. Not only that, if you advocate a more neutral view such as "potara = metamoru" or that the original components are the true source of strength... then Kibitoshin would have been equal (or also stronger since Shin is stronger than both of them) to Gotenks SSJ3, which he was not. Therefore... Metamoru >> Potara.
Man, seriously... Buu saga has always given us issues, but we never gotten so meta and indepth as of now. Seriously, this is as bad as DBSuper or GT power consistency if not even worse. Especially when you start looking at small, implicit details like this.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 7, 2017 23:54:55 GMT
I would suggest it means Kibito is much weaker than we all thought then. The fusion boosted Supreme Kai it wasn't enough to help against Kid Buu. I think it works, since we are never told how strong Kibito is and that the Supreme Kai is unaware of mortals reaching and possibly exceeding Dabura's level of power, whom they considered to be extremely strong. Kibito being a lot weaker than the Supreme Kai works back then in the story, since servants being weaker than their masters was pretty common in DB.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 7, 2017 23:58:13 GMT
I would suggest it means Kibito is much weaker than we all thought then. The fusion boosted Supreme Kai it wasn't enough to help against Kid Buu. I think it works, since we are never told how strong Kibito is and that the Supreme Kai is unaware of mortals reaching and possibly exceeding Dabura's level of power, whom they considered to be extremely strong. Kibito being a lot weaker than the Supreme Kai works back then in the story, since servants being weaker than their masters was pretty common in DB.But... but... what about Zamasu?!?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 0:11:11 GMT
Wasn't it explained by Ero Sennin that that the "rival boost" is the main reason for them becoming so much stronger than expected?
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 8, 2017 0:13:24 GMT
I would suggest it means Kibito is much weaker than we all thought then. The fusion boosted Supreme Kai it wasn't enough to help against Kid Buu. I think it works, since we are never told how strong Kibito is and that the Supreme Kai is unaware of mortals reaching and possibly exceeding Dabura's level of power, whom they considered to be extremely strong. Kibito being a lot weaker than the Supreme Kai works back then in the story, since servants being weaker than their masters was pretty common in DB.But... but... what about Zamasu?!? I was more in line of thinking pre Super era. I know there is some debate on rather Popo was stronger than Kami or not based on how easily he defeated Goku when he first came to the palace, but I think masters being stronger than their servants was more common than the servants being stronger. I could be wrong. I really don't care to check. Chalk up to fusion being as strong as it needs to be for plot purposes. At the end of the day it never made sense. Piccolo's assimilation gives us problems, since as DBM pointed out even a group of Nameks below 2K could have formed a warrior with potential enough to defeat Freeza. Piccolo and Nail fusion is an absurd power up. Most fans tend to state things like Piccolo was 100K power level from training with King Kai, but that ignores Piccolo only trained there for 6 days and it wasn't even enough time for Piccolo to get Kaioken and Spirit Bomb training and ignores how King Kai was sure none of the guys at his place were a match for Ginyu Force during those 6 days of training. Chances of Piccolo being significantly stronger than he was on Earth seems small. Yet Piccolo assimilates Nail into his being and he is able to go toe to toe with Freeza's second form. DBZ Abridge is right power levels are bullshit.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 8, 2017 0:27:58 GMT
Here is how I look at it. Vegetto being vastly stronger than Gotenks isn't because of the fusion method, but the components themselves. Fusion in DB is just a ridiculous enormous boost regardless of which method it is that fusion is in whole different world compared to the components that make it up. Goten and Trunks are much weaker than their dads in the Buu arc, but when they fuse into Gotenks they don't become comparable to them, but actually vastly more powerful than either of them. Like Ashanark's post pointed out the power boost was just that crazy. If we take Goku and Vegeta in the Buu arc who were already much stronger than their sons that the two of them using the dance to form Gogeta is likely to produce a warrior of insane levels, but on a bigger scale. Gogeta should be vastly stronger than Gotenks just like Vegetto was. It is more likely that the stronger the components are that fuse together the more of a power boost they obtain. Fair enough, I would be fine with that if Salagir explains something similar. Something like " The power of the fusion depends of how the two souls complement each other"... and we know that Goku and Vegeta are rivals so... Also that reminds me of something, I'm not sure if it's because of the spanish translation, but Ro Kaioshin says the rivals fusion is the strongest fusion.Is there any proof adult SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than Gohan in DBM? Conqueror Geng No way, I know you are considering Gotenks SSJ3 happened because of metamoru and so... but if you compare Gotenks vs Vegetto in the same form, the potara margin is way larger. Even base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks SSJ3!! .... that's not even near the difference between the parents and sons, its just insane. We can argue why Vegetto is so OP and Gotenks not, but I can't see Metamoru being stronger than Potara. About Kibitoshin:As Son Pan already said, Kibito is weak, I think we can use the guide books here, Daizenshuu says he is a good match for BASE Gohan.Android 16 tier + Below SSJ tier (potala) = SSJ 2.5 . I think it works. In conclusion, I think we have 2 options: 1. Potara fusion is way stronger than Metamoru fusion. End of the story. 2. Potara and Metamoru are similar, but what makes Vegetto so strong is X FACTOR, maybe rivalry.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 8, 2017 0:35:50 GMT
Argelios What I really meant is the overall power of Vegeto is far higher than that of Gotenks, but the increase from Goten/Trunks to Gotenks, is far superior than that of Vegeta/Goku to Vegetto. Therefore Vegetto's total power is higher as you said, but the gap between the strongest fused individual (Goku and Trunks) vs. the fusion is larger in Gotenks. Then, an hypothetical Gogeta would result in a higher increase from SSJ3 Goku in comparison to the fused result than Vegeto would have been. SSJ1 Vegeto >>>>>>>>> SSJ1 Gotenks, by far. But still, the boost/increase from Goten/trunks (similar level) to Gotenks, is still larger than SSJ3 Goku to Vegeto. Say, Gotenks SSJ1 is 5000 times stronger than Kid Trunks, but Vegeto is only 500 times stronger than Goku SSJ3. Vegeto is only stronger because Goku is like 500 times stronger than Trunks, but the increase from Trunks to Gotenks, is still far greater. Therefore, although Vegeto is stronger than Gotenks, Metamoru fusion would still produce a stronger result than the Potara fusion given the fused individuals are the same in both fusion. Also, the Rivalry argument does not really count, since it is Goku and Vegeta who are rivals. Both Vegeto and Gogeta are Goku/vegeta fusions, thus the rival factor is present in both.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 8, 2017 1:03:12 GMT
So if Goten and Trunks were to fuse using potaras, they'd be stronger than their fusion dance counterpart but still much weaker than Vegito (at that part of DBZ) because they were individually much weaker than Goku and Vegeta? Thats a good way of looking at it, because all talk about potential aside, 'potential' doesn't equal actual strength, and i highly doubt any fusion method would recognise that. I t depends on if you subscribe potara actually makes a stronger warrior than fusion or if you think Old Kai meant potara was stronger method since it doesn't require precise movements to use and doesn't have a time limit to worry about. If you believe the former than yes Trunks/Goten potara would be stronger than Gotenks, but nowhere near Vegetto's level. If you believe the latter than the potara fusion would probably only be as strong as Gotenks was, but not have to worry about SS3 breaking his fusion down like Gotenks does. That explains why adult Gotenks has gotten so much of a power boost. Since Goten and Trunks are stronger than they were kids, Gotenks power increases proportionately. They go from being weaker than Mystic Gohan and U16 Bra to being above them, but weaker than Vegetto. At least for DBM if Goten and Trunks had trained and became as strong as their dads in the Buu arc that Gotenks would likely be in Vegetto's weight class. Actually if i recall the Anime correctly, Old Kai says something along the lines of how Potara Fusion is 'much better than that fusion dance you must have picked up from the metamories' and then says that because Goku and Vegeta are rivals it makes the Potara fusion 'even more effective'. Maybe we're all taking 'more effective' to mean 'more powerful' when there's no direct assertion as such? Therefore your 2nd option might be the more accurate one. Conqueror Geng- Oops, too slow old man! Trouble is technically Gogeta is non-canon as he's never appeared once in the actual DBZ series, just the movies so comparing the two fusions is alot more difficult then people expect.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 8, 2017 1:23:06 GMT
More "meta.specipic.points" to consider: -How often Supreme Kais are rivals if the potara fusion is expected to make rival fusions stronger specifically? -I agree Kibito was weaker than Shin, but I'm sure most of you agree Shin is at least inbetween A16 and Imperfect Cell. This is the minimum level required to truly one shot Freeza. -If Kibito is weaker than Goten and Trunks, this is still balanced by Shin being stronger than both of them. -Call me crazy, but I think Kibitoshin should at least be able to give a good fight to 100% Freeza. I'd say he's maybe around 5th form Cooler level. -If Potara is truly a superior fusion in comparison to Metamoru, then this would hold true for Kibitoshin as well. -If we assume "Potara = Metamoru", then Kibitoshin should still be around the same level as Gotenks, which is a shitload stronger than Goku SSJ3 and not just a meager "2.5" -If we assume "Potara >>>> Metamoru" like it's often the case in most DBZ communities, then this same point would amply magnified by ten, since Kibitoshin is a Potara fusion (superior one) and Gotenks is a Metamoru fusion (inferior one)
Too much food for thought eh? Man, and I thought comparing only SSj3 Goku vs. Super Buu vs. Mystic Gohan already gave use a lot of troubles, yet thus far this other debate is likely the most straightforward thing in Buu saga, especially in comparison to this.
So if we assume.. Goten = 20 Trunks = 22
Gotenks = 440
Shin = 30 Kibito = 15
Kibitoshin = 450
This only applies if we think Potara is equal to Metamoru, given that the fused components are even totally. If we assume Potara is truly superior to Metamoru, then this would only favor Kibitoshin even more. Say... In this case, potara would hipothetically add another 150% upgrade to the fused result. So
Kibitoshin = 450 * 1.5 = 675
That's only a bit short of 2 Gotenks combined. Do the math. If we follow this logic, we can see the neutral and pro-Potara arguments just do not sum up in real terms, Then it is clear Metamoru >>>> Potara. Vegetto being stronger than Gotenks is only due to the fact he has not to worry about time limit, and because Goku and Vegeta are 500 and 50 times stronger than Goten and Trunks respectively.
Thus, it is clear even a SSJ1 Gogeta (post Buu saga, post new-fusion poses) could tank a lot of blows from SSJ3 Vegeto just like Semi-Perfect Cell did against Super Vegeta. SSJ2 Gogeta would disintegrate SSJ3 Vegeto with a single bitchslap. It could be possible even base Gogeta would defeat SSJ1 Vegeto with lots of struggle.
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Post by lordofbeefdip on Oct 9, 2017 0:44:10 GMT
Hmm...depending on how U18 Bra fares against Majin Nappa, she might need to get bumped to either the top of tier 0, or to the bottom of tier 1.
Nappa had to be stronger than Base Raditz, who was implied stronger than the whole Ginyu force. So Majin Nappa might be able to tangle with 3rd form Frieza by this point and come out ahead.
Even if he is below form 2, if Bra is competitive, however briefly, I think it might warrant a tier upgrade for her.
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Post by fooshin on Oct 9, 2017 3:54:39 GMT
Nice updated list.
Couple points I can add.
In the mini comic on page 77 - I'm pretty sure that's shin blowing a hole thru level 2 bojack. Unless I'm totally blind here, then that puts him at ssj2 per DBM at least. Also, in the same comic shin refuses to destroy bojacks gang because they werent destroying enough planets. Furthermore into the fusion debate and with regards to dbz manga Canon, nothing indicates what kibito's level is and pretty much the only thing that suggests shin's was his short battle with fat which he did survive, barely. Yes, dabura killed kibito, but (I believe) it's well known that anyone, even vegetto can be killed easily if they surpress their ki down to zero which is exactly where his was when he got sucker-blasted by dabura. Its just my guess based on nothing other than why would there be such a wildly huge range for these beings, but I would say that they were both around level 1 to 2. Fused, yes they would be very strong, however buu was at that point ridiculously out of reach so even though he was likely ssj3 kid gotenks levels old kai said don't bother trying. Why didn't he just finish kid? I'm guessing toriyama forgot or just realized it didn't work well for the story so whoopsy.
Pan,
Yes, the student is usually weaker than the master but that doesn't stop most here at putting south kai stronger than grand even though nothing in the manga shows this to be the case.
Khan,
I have to discount your logic on the buu comments pre-ssj3 vegetto. Yes, buu could have easily finished broly, but nothing implies that he would do so with his power level alone. Far more likely he would use his techniques to win (most likely absorbtion) and all of that doesn't require him to be stronger than broly one bit. He could even be a whole tier weaker and still win against a dumb brute like broly no problem. Even vegetto could have won at any time if he bothered to use any of his advanced techniques but he wanted a pure brute strength fight with broly and so on a side note, disregarding power levels, it's still too hard to say that Zen would beat vegetto as both of their full sets of techniques are still a mystery.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2017 5:44:04 GMT
fooshinI too think it was Shin who blasted Bojack in the chest. I believe it was mentioned somewhere that every Supreme Kai was a thousand times stronger than Frieza. Now which form of Frieza they were referring to, I don't know. My guess is that they meant his Third Restriction Form (the form we first see him in). Buu has a plethora of techniques he gained from either absorbing people who created such techniques or he may have even created techniques himself since absorbed Goku and Vegeta, who are known to train extensively and learn and create techniques for use in battle, not to mention his unlimited use of magic. Vegeto picked up some techniques from Kibitoshin like Instantaneous Movement, ability to create weapons from energy, or maybe even Bra's special Afterimage technique.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 9, 2017 6:26:20 GMT
Nice updated list. Couple points I can add. In the mini comic on page 77 - I'm pretty sure that's shin blowing a hole thru level 2 bojack. Unless I'm totally blind here, then that puts him at ssj2 per DBM at least. Also, in the same comic shin refuses to destroy bojacks gang because they werent destroying enough planets. Furthermore into the fusion debate and with regards to dbz manga Canon, nothing indicates what kibito's level is and pretty much the only thing that suggests shin's was his short battle with fat which he did survive, barely. Yes, dabura killed kibito, but (I believe) it's well known that anyone, even vegetto can be killed easily if they surpress their ki down to zero which is exactly where his was when he got sucker-blasted by dabura. Its just my guess based on nothing other than why would there be such a wildly huge range for these beings, but I would say that they were both around level 1 to 2. Fused, yes they would be very strong, however buu was at that point ridiculously out of reach so even though he was likely ssj3 kid gotenks levels old kai said don't bother trying. Why didn't he just finish kid? I'm guessing toriyama forgot or just realized it didn't work well for the story so whoopsy. Pan, Yes, the student is usually weaker than the master but that doesn't stop most here at putting south kai stronger than grand even though nothing in the manga shows this to be the case. Khan, I have to discount your logic on the buu comments pre-ssj3 vegetto. Yes, buu could have easily finished broly, but nothing implies that he would do so with his power level alone. Far more likely he would use his techniques to win (most likely absorbtion) and all of that doesn't require him to be stronger than broly one bit. He could even be a whole tier weaker and still win against a dumb brute like broly no problem. Even vegetto could have won at any time if he bothered to use any of his advanced techniques but he wanted a pure brute strength fight with broly and so on a side note, disregarding power levels, it's still too hard to say that Zen would beat vegetto as both of their full sets of techniques are still a mystery. Not directly, but saying "nothing implies" is a it exaggerated. Not only this is about finishing Broly, but also.... This does not sound like he intends to finish it with some pussy technique. "It will be a real pleasure" means he's going to enjoy himself toying. "And when you're recovered, I'll crush you next!" = Implying he'd crush him like a bug, even after seeing his SSJ2. If he only could beat him through absorbing or some weird special technique, he would not have spoken (to himself, even, not even boasting to someone else) so confidently. He also did not become scared upon seeing SSJ3, but looked far more amused interested. Therefore, I believe SSJ3 Vegetto may be stronger than him, but even then Buu could still beat it, through special techniques. Even Salagir said as much in the comment Argelios posted ("Vegetto SSJ3 can't beat Zen Buu clearly"). If Vegetto SSJ3 form is not sure to beat Buu, then SSJ2 Vegetto does not stand a chance to beat Buu. It would go more or less like Mystic Gohan vs. Buutenks, if not worse for Vegetto. If he was truly inferior to SSJ2 Vegetto, then Salagir would've said so instead of specifying SSJ3 Vegetto. If he is truly inferior to SSJ2 Vegetto, it is believable he could still defeat him through special abilities, but then him standing a chance to SSJ3 Vegetto is unbelievable in that case, even with his abilities. So, no. I would not say my logic is discounted. My computer crashed while I was replying to your other "SSJ3 Gotenks = Zen Buu post" so I lost it and couldn't care to re-write all of it again. It is not definitive and 100% confirmed, but it is logical and followable. Your logic is truly discounted on the other hand, because if that were true (Buu only being able to defeat SSJ2 Vegetto through a "special technique/ability"), then Buu naturally would have been shitting his pants upon seeing SSJ3 Vegetto, yet he did not. Surely, if you are weaker than someone's SSJ2 form in raw strength, and can only beat it through "weird abilities"... then upon seeing another additional form, obviously you must hold absolutely no chance and feel quite overwhelmed and worried by it? Buu displayed none of such worry, the contrary in fact: Sometimes, we have to take account this that don't happen though (as opposed to only taking into account what happens). Thing that never happened such as Buu crapping his pants upon seeing SSJ3 Vegetto. And then there is this other panel, which admittedly holds less value than the others I posted since Buu is actually boasting to Vegetto himself, yet this is still AFTER seeing his SSJ3.
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Post by Solus on Oct 9, 2017 8:06:02 GMT
If Kibito and Kaioshin fuse, shouldn't they be only as strong as base Gotenks by your logic? I don't remember how strong base Gotenks was supposed to be, but would he really have made a difference in fighting Kid Buu? Was he stronger than Vegeta SSJ2?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 9, 2017 9:56:20 GMT
If Kibito and Kaioshin fuse, shouldn't they be only as strong as base Gotenks by your logic? I don't remember how strong base Gotenks was supposed to be, but would he really have made a difference in fighting Kid Buu? Was he stronger than Vegeta SSJ2? Base Gotenks after the ROSAT should be a shitload stronger than Vegeta SSJ2. I am merely taking into account the factor that Shin is stronger than Goten/Trunks, and that Kibito is only slightly weaker than them. If we assume that potara = metamoru, and that the multiplication of the components gives a similar number, then he should be very close to SSJ3 Gotenks since Kaioshins don't have transformations. Saiyans need various transformations to bring full power.
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Post by Solus on Oct 10, 2017 20:59:21 GMT
If Kibito and Kaioshin fuse, shouldn't they be only as strong as base Gotenks by your logic? I don't remember how strong base Gotenks was supposed to be, but would he really have made a difference in fighting Kid Buu? Was he stronger than Vegeta SSJ2? Base Gotenks after the ROSAT should be a shitload stronger than Vegeta SSJ2. I am merely taking into account the factor that Shin is stronger than Goten/Trunks, and that Kibito is only slightly weaker than them. If we assume that potara = metamoru, and that the multiplication of the components gives a similar number, then he should be very close to SSJ3 Gotenks since Kaioshins don't have transformations. Saiyans need various transformations to bring full power. I don't agree on the transformation thing. They do make sayjans stronger. But that doesn't mean that Kibitoshin would automatically be as strong without transforming. If Goten and Trunks fuse in Base and become base Gotenks, then I agree that Base Gotenks is weaker than Kibitoshin, since the components can access to their full potential without transforming. And that full power would be about the same as the boys' at Ssj. But their Ssj3 is a transformation of the fusion, not of the components. So there is no reason to assume Kobitoshin would be equally strong. But I admit, that he still should have been able to put up a decent fight against Kid Buu.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 10, 2017 21:09:23 GMT
Base Gotenks after the ROSAT should be a shitload stronger than Vegeta SSJ2. I am merely taking into account the factor that Shin is stronger than Goten/Trunks, and that Kibito is only slightly weaker than them. If we assume that potara = metamoru, and that the multiplication of the components gives a similar number, then he should be very close to SSJ3 Gotenks since Kaioshins don't have transformations. Saiyans need various transformations to bring full power. I don't agree on the transformation thing. They do make sayjans stronger. But that doesn't mean that Kibitoshin would automatically be as strong without transforming. If Goten and Trunks fuse in Base and become base Gotenks, then I agree that Base Gotenks is weaker than Kibitoshin, since the components can access to their full potential without transforming. And that full power would be about the same as the boys' at Ssj. But their Ssj3 is a transformation of the fusion, not of the components. So there is no reason to assume Kobitoshin would be equally strong. But I admit, that he still should have been able to put up a decent fight against Kid Buu. Then you basically agree entirely with my main point that Metamoru is the superior fusion. The latest posts you were replying was mostly me playing the devil's advocate just to show why the definitive thinking of "Potara >> Metamoru" is flawed. If metamoru was truly weaker, then Gotenks would be noticeably weaker than Kibitoshin, yet he was not... Also... -The increase from Goten/Trunks to Gotenks is far far far higher than that of Kibitoshin, which on a mathematical level should not happen at all were metamoru weaker. Both in proportion and end result -The increase from Goten/Trunks to Gotenks is also bigger than that of Goku SSJ3 to Vegetto, even if the end result is weaker -As you mentioned, Gotenks was able to unlock and even bypass transformations the components could not reach individually. Therefore Metamoru is superior.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 11, 2017 20:24:53 GMT
fooshin @caboose That's not Shin, it's South Kai! About Grand Kaioshin, we don't have any indication of his strength, he could still be a Level 0 magician kai.... and after today page, maybe he is. Conqueror GengI was going to debate the metamoru > potara, but Solus said exactly what I think about it, you are including the transformations into the final power, when they are independant. Gotenks Ssj3 is a transformation of the fusion, not of the components. Goten SSJ + Trunks SSJ = Gotenks SSJ = SSJ3 Tier East Kai + Kibito (base Gohan) = SSJ2.5 Tier Anyway maybe you are right about the fusions being equal. That doesn't mean Kibitoshin via Metamoru would be stronger than Potara Kibitoshin. ------- SOOOOO..... Kaios weaker than Dabura!!! I will have to take Pandora's immortal out of the chart to move them next to Zangya and Bujin.
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Post by Solus on Oct 11, 2017 21:03:06 GMT
I don't agree on the transformation thing. They do make sayjans stronger. But that doesn't mean that Kibitoshin would automatically be as strong without transforming. If Goten and Trunks fuse in Base and become base Gotenks, then I agree that Base Gotenks is weaker than Kibitoshin, since the components can access to their full potential without transforming. And that full power would be about the same as the boys' at Ssj. But their Ssj3 is a transformation of the fusion, not of the components. So there is no reason to assume Kobitoshin would be equally strong. But I admit, that he still should have been able to put up a decent fight against Kid Buu. Then you basically agree entirely with my main point that Metamoru is the superior fusion. The latest posts you were replying was mostly me playing the devil's advocate just to show why the definitive thinking of "Potara >> Metamoru" is flawed. If metamoru was truly weaker, then Gotenks would be noticeably weaker than Kibitoshin, yet he was not... Also... -The increase from Goten/Trunks to Gotenks is far far far higher than that of Kibitoshin, which on a mathematical level should not happen at all were metamoru weaker. Both in proportion and end result -The increase from Goten/Trunks to Gotenks is also bigger than that of Goku SSJ3 to Vegetto, even if the end result is weaker -As you mentioned, Gotenks was able to unlock and even bypass transformations the components could not reach individually. Therefore Metamoru is superior. I'm not so sure about this. What I do agree with: You (and everyone else) did the math. If you look at it from this point of view, that sounds reasonable. On the other hand I'm not really sure about Base Gotenks' strength. If we assume that Fat Buu and Super Buu are equally strong (since nothing changed actually) then why would it need Gotenks SSJ3 to be on par with Super Buu, if Base Gotenks was able to defeat Fat Buu? That doesn't make sense to me. Of course, it was established that Super Buu was a better fighter than Fat Buu. But their power level should be equal and so is their resilience. Even if Base Gotenks (or even Gotenks SSJ1) was able to kick him around, he could never have killed him when Gotenks SSJ3 had difficulties to do so. That makes Piccolo's sentence very questionable. And then there is the thing about Kibito's and Kaioshin's own strength. No-one really knows how strong they were. These are nothing but assumptions. So in the end we do know nothing about the increase of Kibitoshin's power. You base your assumption for Potara-fusion only on the fact that old Kaioshin claimed, Kibitoshin would be of no use against Gotenks-Buu (since that Sentence came when Gohan screwed up). But you have to take into account, that it could be just on one of Toriyama's whims. I wouldn't be surprised if he just forgot Kibitoshin when they fought Kid Buu. Just look at how illogical that whole thing with the Genkidama was. The easiest way to defeat Buu would have been to teleport Gohan to the realm of the Kaioshins and just blast Buu away with a Kamehameha. Gohan was so immensly stronger than Kid Buu, that he could swat him like a fly. But instead they tried that very dangerous and dramatic thing that almost went wrong when Goku wasn't strong enough to drive the Ball against Buu. What I'm trying to say is that you won't find a clear answer in canon, no matter how hard you try. That is due to the author's stupidity. So don't bother to dig that deep, when Salagir will one day reveal his own thoughts on this matter.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 11, 2017 23:30:10 GMT
Then you basically agree entirely with my main point that Metamoru is the superior fusion. The latest posts you were replying was mostly me playing the devil's advocate just to show why the definitive thinking of "Potara >> Metamoru" is flawed. If metamoru was truly weaker, then Gotenks would be noticeably weaker than Kibitoshin, yet he was not... Also... -The increase from Goten/Trunks to Gotenks is far far far higher than that of Kibitoshin, which on a mathematical level should not happen at all were metamoru weaker. Both in proportion and end result -The increase from Goten/Trunks to Gotenks is also bigger than that of Goku SSJ3 to Vegetto, even if the end result is weaker -As you mentioned, Gotenks was able to unlock and even bypass transformations the components could not reach individually. Therefore Metamoru is superior. I'm not so sure about this. What I do agree with: You (and everyone else) did the math. If you look at it from this point of view, that sounds reasonable. On the other hand I'm not really sure about Base Gotenks' strength. If we assume that Fat Buu and Super Buu are equally strong (since nothing changed actually) then why would it need Gotenks SSJ3 to be on par with Super Buu, if Base Gotenks was able to defeat Fat Buu? That doesn't make sense to me. Of course, it was established that Super Buu was a better fighter than Fat Buu. But their power level should be equal and so is their resilience. Even if Base Gotenks (or even Gotenks SSJ1) was able to kick him around, he could never have killed him when Gotenks SSJ3 had difficulties to do so. That makes Piccolo's sentence very questionable. Then again, if you follow this line of thought, then Goku should have been able to finish off Super Buu. I actually see the first fat Buu as "equal" to Super Buu, but he can't access all of his power and thus is weaker than Super Buu. Super Buu has full access to them. That is, if we take his later comment seriously. What's the minimum strength required to one-shot Freeza? I'd say Android level at least. So this is the minimum I'm establishing for Shin. I am assuming this is the default strength since Kaioshins do not normally train. He said something like "any Kaioshin could kill Freeza with a single blow". I understand all of this, but although we're referencing Buu-saga in the thread, we are not exactly looking for a canon answer. We are rather attempting to predict (or even create) the rules for when it happens in DBM (which likely will).
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