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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 15, 2016 1:58:54 GMT
GreatWyrmGold Raichi has full memories of his ghosts so even if he was asleep during the fight, he could know how Tapion used it. -Ghost Pan performed Solar Flare/Tayoken (she never performed it during her Bojack fight) -Zangya performed Energy Bonds (which also were never performed by her during the tournament, only by Bujin/Bojack) -Vegeta's childhood relatives/friends' way of speaking to him -U3 Vegeta calling himself 'original Vegeta' (which was quite ironic and showing his ignorance of multiverse concepts) Not only Tapion can hold Hildegarn inside him. I remind you that Ghost Raditz from U3 could hold half of it (while it was alive!). So now that it's a ghost, all his insides and outsides are known. I do not think we need fancy explanations like air, pressure, etc... Hildegarn's insides are simply an eldritch location. If Raditz could hold him inside (as a Ghost) so could Raichi (yet he choose not to initially). Now he has him inside too as a Ghost. Now he can use him as he pleases and perhaps even upgrade him. That he didn't think it before Buu is irrelevant at this point. That he knew it before dying is all what matters now. He knew how to do that before dying, therefore a Ghost Tapion/Hildegarn (and by extension Raichi) knows how too. Again, refer to the above. Raichi managed how to device the Hildegarn-watch in just a few hours during his special as well. Also, remember the Ghost Raditz stuff. This whole page should serve as enough pictoric evidence: I am not sure why you are under the impression Raichi is so incapable. Once someone dies, he has full access to memories, power + techniques and can even make them tag team together. Hildegarn should be no exception. Another reason of why I think this will happen is well, because that's the only thing Hildegarn could be useful for at this point. None of Hildegarn's attacks could hurt the opponents Raichi is going to face, so all he's good for is to become an exoskeleton which can turn into smoke while other ghost's do a rampage. This way, he could avoid a Vegeta situation like in his previous battle, and also effectively cull the possibility of any "no-bullshit opponent" going straight for himself and his blackball bypassing all the other ghosts.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 15, 2016 2:22:25 GMT
Raichi has full memories of his ghosts so even if he was asleep during the fight, he could know how Tapion used it. Citation? And before you cite that the ghosts know that the originals knew, bear in mind that the ghosts seem to be essentially independent of (if fanatically loyal to) Raichi. The fact that the ghosts know something doesn't automatically mean that Raichi knows it. And I also deal with that point below. Just because Raichi could hold Hirudegarn inside himself doesn't mean that Hirudegarn has the same bond with Raichi that Tapion has. Mind, I'm not saying Raichi couldn't have that kind of bond...just that he clearly doesn't. "Eldritch location"? That sounds even less healthy than the insides of a normal monster. Unless it's conveniently eldritch in only ways that make it easier to survive inside, but that is incredibly unlikely, since it would need to violate the laws of nature in a few, very specific ways, and no others. Given that there's been no indication that the insides of Hirudegarn are hospitable under normal circumstances, the simplest explanation is that Buu did something to Tapion or his bond to Hirudegarn. And you didn't explain how Hirudegarn's insubstantiality could possibly protect Tapion if the latter was simply inside the former. You just kind of ignored it. What? Just because Hatchiyak can create copies of Hirudegarn does not mean that it can be considered to be inside Raichi in any sense of the word. With his lab, and with access to a device which already did almost exactly what he wanted (which he had studied for several days), and with Tapion alive and present (to advise and explain), and with at least one ghost-warrior (to act as a lab assistant), and without interruption or time pressure from the tournament. Compare that to having only a few hours, no tools, little space, absolutely no help, and no direction except knowing it's possible. I'm not sure what relevance that has to the statement of mine you were addressing. First off, I'm pretty sure Hatchiyak doesn't work that way. But I've already addressed that. Second, I don't think Raichi is too incompetent—I think the problem in question is too difficult, if not entirely impossible. (And that Raichi is missing a number of tools—literal and figurative—that he would need in order to have any chance at succeeding at the task.) Why would Hirudegarn only be useful for shielding Raichi within itself? If it was useful for that, surely it would be useful without shielding Raichi? And in any case...why should that have any bearing on what is possible or impossible?
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 15, 2016 3:26:58 GMT
Citation? And before you cite that the ghosts know that the originals knew, bear in mind that the ghosts seem to be essentially independent of (if fanatically loyal to) Raichi. The fact that the ghosts know something doesn't automatically mean that Raichi knows it. And I also deal with that point below. I will give you that it hasn't been specified just how much control Raichi has over his ghosts: if he's controlling them directly, or just giving them a target and telling them to go ahead. The level of teamwork they are able to exhibit, however, implies some sort of mental communication occurs at some point: either while they're floating around in the Hatchiyak ball, or else during battle. Else how would Pan know to sacrifice herself so as to let Tidar get off a God's Blade? Did Raichi have them practice this maneuver before his match with Vegeta?
And before you say that Tidar just saw an opening and went with it because Pan was expendable, note that neither he, the Cell Jr., or Raichi were blinded by the Solar Flare. If the ghosts couldn't communicate during battle, they wouldn't have known the Solar Flare was coming and would've been caught off guard. (Well, at least Tidar would've. He doesn't have Vegeta's reflexes.) Again, they might've practiced this beforehand, but if I'm faced with "Raichi practiced with his ghosts, but offscreen where we didn't see it, and never mentioned it afterward" or "Raichi has his ghost's knowledge because he controls them," I think the second is more reasonable.
Raichi mentions giving his ghosts commands, but he rarely says stuff verbally, implying he's got some sort of telepathy with them. He probably has access to their minds, and therefore can learn their memories. If the bond could be formed with a wild Hirudegarn, why not with a super-obedient ghost version? Buu did not do anything to Tapion or his bond with Hirudegarn:
He just gave him an idea. Hirudegarn is obviously magical. Its ability to turn into smoke is magical. It can be contained inside Tapion through magical means. Tapion's apparent merging with Hirudegarn against Cell is also magical. This merging seemed complete, since there was no little nucleus of Tapion we could see when Hirudegarn turned into smoke against Cell--somehow, Tapion was also turning into smoke when Hirudegarn was, and it did not kill him. When Tapion is absorbed into Hirudegarn, his physical body is in some weird in-between space made by Hirudegarn's magical nature; I say this because Tapion only died when Hirudegarn was killed, and that was because of the ring's gravity, not because he was chopped in half when Hirudegarn was or had somehow taken damage when Hirudegarn had.
The point is, the ability to have Hirudegarn be a smoke-shield for you does not work by natural means. If Raichi can duplicate Hirudegarn's smoke property at all, then he can get it to work for him the way it did for Tapion, since it was not a Buu-given ability. But the only thing Raichi really did with all that time was figure out a way to replicate the music box to control Hirudegarn. Now that Hirudegarn's a ghost, he's much more obedient. I doubt Raichi would need the ocarina to make him obey...and even if he did, Tapion's ghost would probably still have the ocarina. (I know he still has the music-box headphones, at least.) What do you mean, Hatchiyak doesn't work that way? Raichi's ghosts clearly have the same techniques and powers as the originals, and they definitely have the same memories that they had before. So what are you referring to that Hatchiyak doesn't do?
The problem is not impossible, because Raichi has all the ingredients he had before--Hirudegarn, Tapion, music box, possibly ocarina--with the added bonus that they're under his control now. If Hirudegarn's smoke property can give Cell and even Vegetto trouble, it'll probably be of some use against Gast. Hirudegarn would not be useful offensively, because if its blows can't trouble Cell, they won't bother Gast. Its only practical use would be to serve as a shield.
The only way any of this could be impossible is if Hirudegarn can only absorb someone into itself (make them into smoke, like it did with Tapion) if that person has played the ocarina to imprison it previously. Even then, Raichi's been shown to be able to replicate magic with technology before, and if he's going up against Gast, he's probably going to try and figure out something.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 15, 2016 3:58:38 GMT
Citation? And before you cite that the ghosts know that the originals knew, bear in mind that the ghosts seem to be essentially independent of (if fanatically loyal to) Raichi. The fact that the ghosts know something doesn't automatically mean that Raichi knows it. And I also deal with that point below. Citation provided: (Novel chapter 76) It was also shown he can upload memories that aren't their own to his ghosts: The whole first part of the second Raichi's special (Hoi's flashbacks up until he was killed) also seem to contribute to this fact. Where is it specified there needs to be a bond at all? We have seen 4 persons hold different parts of him: Hoi, Ghost Raditz, Tapion and Minosha. Sorry, but health doesn't really matter in this situation, as neither do laws of nature. There are also haven't been any indications of Hildegarn's insides being unhospitable either. I skipped because I thought this was self explanatory. Did you just miss Cell vs. Tapion's fight or something? Besides the whole fight (which alone is a good enough example) Tapion says something like "At least I'm not my own weak point anymore!". Well, he has a Ghost Hildegarn inside his orb, and at his full disposition and control. This is semantics now. It only mentions a few hours, not days of staying. This is mostly irrelevant once you accept all the above though, I do not think this needs any explaining. You are saying: -Raichi can't use Hildegarn as a shield because only Tapion has a "bond" -Raichi has no ability to scan or make telepathy with his Ghosts. I'm using Ghost Raditz as an example no bond is needed, and that telepathy/mind reading is possible for Raichi. While Raditz didn't hide inside Hildegarn, like Tapion did, by principle it should be the same. What Buu suggested to Tapion, was something akin tol using a narrower grip on a bar, as opposed to a wide one while training on a gym, rather than altering the properties of the object. He doesn't need to do any of that. All he needs to do is summon Ghost Hildegarn, order to turn itself into smoke, and proceed to reform it around Raichi's own shield. Voila. As for the rest: DBM Hildegarn has far better defensive properties than it has offensive ones. Hildegarn, as I mentioned, would not scratch Bra or Gast, but would be very useful to dodge their attacks and avoiding any of them taking a "no bullshit approach" and go straight for Raichi while evading the ghost troop. Hildegarn couldn't even hurt Cell, but could tank hits from Vegetto, Mystic Gohan, Gotenks, etc.. As for Hatchiyack's way of working, I am not sure why there are doubts about how it works (it is pretty explicit to me): For more advanced scientific details: I am afraid I have no fucking idea of how an old dude actually managed to harness hatred into an Orb which can create solid holographs with the same powers and personalities as dead people.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 15, 2016 4:53:25 GMT
Also, while I think Raichi is a very worthy adversary now, I'm not advocating he's some sort of omnipotent character. I do not believe he's capable of fusing characters (like other persons have suggested) nor make people turn into Super Saiyan (unless they were killed when they already had knowledge of the form).
For some strange reason he was able to upgrade Freeza, and presumably Cold too. I believe Ghost forms could offer certain advantages such as infinite stamina. Say, if he has a SSJ3 Ghost, it would not have a time limit like it would for a living being. If someone killed Gotenks (very unlikely now) he'd likely have a permanent Ghost Gotenks and not Goten and Trunks.
Therefore, I do not think using Hildegarn with the same principle (not even technique) that Tapion did is outside the realm of possibility. It comes even handier because ghosts follow Raichi commands.
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Post by Dr. Wheelo on Sept 15, 2016 6:03:38 GMT
I'm still hoping he ends up transforming Hirudegarn into his final form, that could raise his offensive a bit. Maybe bring him near his canon levels where he took out Gotenks in one shot, that would be more of an equalizer against Gast. It wouldn't feel right to bring in Hirudegarn and not have him reach his final form, it would be like if they never transformed Bojack or had Cooler use his 5th form, that would just feel wrong.
If I could add another prediction
I think U18 Piccolo may fuse with the U16 Piccolo and maybe even King Piccolo, that would be a colossal boost that would rocket him right back into relevance. The power boost would explain why he's able to boss around Bra and Vegeta in Bardock's vision.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 15, 2016 21:43:38 GMT
I'm still hoping he ends up transforming Hirudegarn into his final form, that could raise his offensive a bit. Maybe bring him near his canon levels where he took out Gotenks in one shot, that would be more of an equalizer against Gast. It wouldn't feel right to bring in Hirudegarn and not have him reach his final form, it would be like if they never transformed Bojack or had Cooler use his 5th form, that would just feel wrong. If I could add another prediction I think U18 Piccolo may fuse with the U16 Piccolo and maybe even King Piccolo, that would be a colossal boost that would rocket him right back into relevance. The power boost would explain why he's able to boss around Bra and Vegeta in Bardock's vision. I would love this. I'm disappointed Piccolo didn't enter this tournament. I wished he had learned Kaioken to help him stay relevant. That technique would have been perfect for non-Saiyan characters as a much needed power boost. Namekian fusion/merger from the Piccolos could work as a way to return him to the old bad ass we saw back in the day.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 16, 2016 13:10:06 GMT
I will give you that it hasn't been specified just how much control Raichi has over his ghosts: if he's controlling them directly, or just giving them a target and telling them to go ahead. The level of teamwork they are able to exhibit, however, implies some sort of mental communication occurs at some point: either while they're floating around in the Hatchiyak ball, or else during battle. Else how would Pan know to sacrifice herself so as to let Tidar get off a God's Blade? Did Raichi have them practice this maneuver before his match with Vegeta? And before you say that Tidar just saw an opening and went with it because Pan was expendable, note that neither he, the Cell Jr., or Raichi were blinded by the Solar Flare. If the ghosts couldn't communicate during battle, they wouldn't have known the Solar Flare was coming and would've been caught off guard. (Well, at least Tidar would've. He doesn't have Vegeta's reflexes.) Again, they might've practiced this beforehand, but if I'm faced with "Raichi practiced with his ghosts, but offscreen where we didn't see it, and never mentioned it afterward" or "Raichi has his ghost's knowledge because he controls them," I think the second is more reasonable. Raichi controlling his ghosts does not imply he has their memories, skills, or any of that jazz. I'm expecting you to ask "Then how can they use their techniques?", so let me head that off. I'm reminded of Taylor Hebert from Worm. She can telepathically control bugs (I'm simplifying a bit); towards the beginning of the story, she mentions breeding spiders by feeding them flies and "flipp[ing] that mental switch that told them to breed and lay eggs as if it was summer". It is never implied that this gives her any special insight into how that mental switch works—and there's no reason to think she does. In fact, it's pretty common for her to give her bugs "orders" and let them do their own thing. The Worm example brings up another problem—if Raichi really was directly controlling all of those ghosts himself, he would need superhuman (super-Tuffle?) powers of multitasking. "Can give mental commands" does not imply "Can read minds," let alone "Can read memories at will". For that matter, "Can read memories at will" does not automatically mean "Can duplicate their skills," let alone "Can modify said skills"—certainly not on the fly. Because the bond takes more effort than just asking Hirudegarn if it wants to fuse? Buu said: "Here, a better way to use your monster." This doesn't say that he just put an idea into Tapion's head; arguably, it does the opposite! (Compare with page 991, where he explicitly states he "bring{s} an idea forward".) As for how Tapion describes it...we know that Buu can change how the person thinks they got their gift (most obviously, Frieza think he learned his trick from a wizard). I wouldn't put that evidence above how the ability actually works. "It's magic, it doesn't need to make sense"? ...You can't reply to my complaint by just repeating my complaint and saying it supports your side. Repeating your conclusion and treating it as some kind of logical argument doesn't work, either. You keep ignoring my actual point. The hard part isn't how obedient Hirudegarn is— I've never questioned that! The problem is that getting Hirudegarn to shield Raichi is more complex than saying pretty please. Again— I NEVER SAID THAT WAS A PROBLEM! Stop making a strawman. I'd explain what I actually said the problem was and ask you to actually respond to that, but I've already done that. I'd say that getting in the way of Gast when Gast isn't attacking him would be useful. Hirudegarn is pretty big. Given sufficient time, equipment, and some idea of how it worked? Sure. But Raichi doesn't have any of those. Citation provided: [snip] (Novel chapter 76) That seem to support, or at least not disprove, the idea that the ghosts have their own memories rather than being mere direct puppets of Raichi. It certainly doesn't suggest Raichi could use even simple techniques simply because one of his ghosts knows them. So? How? That's exactly the bond I'm talking about. I was waxing somewhat poetical, using "healthy" to mean "not lethal" and "laws of nature" to mean "laws of physics, biology, etc" (e.g, "People need to breathe") As I've said, it is highly improbable that Hirudegarn is oxygenated, non-toxic, and diffuse enough to be breathable without significant difficulty. It is also unlikely that there is normally a Tapion-sized space inside Hirudegarn. I'm not saying that Tapion isn't protected inside Hirudegarn—I'm saying that to be protected, the process needs to be more complicated than "Hirudegarn manifests around Tapion". No, it's not. He can create a ghost of Hirudegarn, and control it. This does not imply he has the kind of bond with it that Tapion, Ghost Raichi, etc had. I don't even see the connection, besides the most superficial. He spent several days studying the box, and directly used the music box's (presumably well-studied) mechanism to contain Hirudegarn. You are saying: -Raichi can't use Hildegarn as a shield because only Tapion has a "bond" -Raichi has no ability to scan or make telepathy with his Ghosts. I'm using Ghost Raditz as an example no bond is needed, and that telepathy/mind reading is possible for Raichi. While Raditz didn't hide inside Hildegarn, like Tapion did, by principle it should be the same.[/s][/quote] You're showing a clear ignorance of what I mean by "bond," but I've already explained that. See what I said to Ashanark. I'm not repeating myself. And you think that having a big ball in the middle of him won't interfere with Hirudegarn in any way, or stop him from reforming in the first place? And isn't a shield that turns to smoke whenever someone hits it basically useless? Neither of those panels has any bearing on our current discussion. None of the points Raichi mentions are points in contention. I wished [Piccolo] had learned Kaioken to help him stay relevant. That technique would have been perfect for non-Saiyan characters as a much needed power boost. It's a shame that he and all the other characters who couldn't catch up didn't spend a month and change training with the guy who taught Goku that technique. Oh wait...
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 16:35:28 GMT
Did you really have to write such lenghty post just to say "No U"?
I'll simplify it to you:
A) Raichi has control of Hildegarn's Ghost (just like his other ghosts) B) Having control of Hildegarn's Ghost means having complete control of its commands and properties C) Therefore, Raichi can form and reform him wherever he pleases, including around himself.
I am not even going to adress the "provide Oxygen" bullshit. Just LOL. You are just replying with one liners now. It is your time to show evidence now, I and Ashanark already provided enough.
Now it's on your shoulders to prove the following: A) Raichi needs a "bond" to use his ghosts as he pleases (He doesn't need a bond at all, never was this even implied) B) You need oxygen to breath inside Hildegarn (although Tapion never needed to do so, or was implied he made an oxygen shield) C) That what Buu gave to Tapion was a technique (pointless anyway even if it was so, as Raichi could replicate it just by having Tapion)
Good luck. My statemens have all been proven (so I don't know what other kind of information you need): -Ghosts have memories and personalities (proved by a link of the novel) -Raichi can read them and/or upload info telepathically (proven by his second special) -Hatchiyack does replicate all of the characteristics of the ghost in question (proven by his battle thus far and the ambiguous statement about Broly).
None was refuted by your simplistic one liners or cheap references to science and health (in a fiction serie where such things matter little: healing beans, time machines, pokeball ships, etc..).
As for Hatchiyack not having any importance in our discussion... Was not it YOU who mentioned it first? I would have thought that if you needed an explanation of how it worked, it would be proper to include the screenshots to remind you of its functionality.
Your argument thus far is just: "Raichi can copy ghosts, including Hildegarn, Broly, etc... but can't use them at his will because reasons ('bond')." Hardly anything convincing.
Raichi can't perform techniques even if his life depended on it, but this matters little because he can mentally (and likely instantly) order his ghosts to do so for him. Turning into smoke and reforming is Hildegarn's own technique. I am not suggesting it is Raichi who will become invulnerable to blunt hints and able to turn into smoke.
So? It means he has some sort of network control and communication with them. This implies more complexity than just "go and kill them!".
Another proof of this network (which totally contradicts your "he can't know memories" point) was the coordination of Bojack's energy bonds + Punch and Tayoken + God's Blade. The Ghosts in question had no time to rehearse such coreography.
By implying that when he died (killed by Ghost Raditz), Raichi's program got all the memories of his flashbacks (since Hoi's was born, to his imprisonment, to his scape, etc..)
Another implication which contradicts your "no memories" view, is that Pan used the Tayoken vs. Vegeta (she had never performed it in front of Raichi, yet it's somehow common sense to assume she knows it) and that Zangya used "Energy Bonds" (which she didn't use during her fight).
There are only 2 ways he could have done this: Mind scanning (which is the one I support) and the following one:
He watched others doing it: you can say Raichi watched Cell do the Tayoken, and Bujin/Bojack doing the energy bonds to counter me. But this would only make your argument even weaker (and believe me, it's already weak enough) as it would be implying Raichi can upload techniques into any of his other random ghosts just by watching anyone perform it. Attemtping to use this last argument to 'disprove' what I say would mean accepting Raichi could make Hildegarn do a Kamehameha, Freezer and Cooler do a fusion dance, Raditz do a God's Blade. And to be honest, this is beyond the realms of stupidity.
Basically arguing against this point is a dead end now.
Ok. Then the bond you're talking about is 4 completely unrelated randoms (one of which had never seen him before and wasn't even a real living being) holding him.
'Bond' seems trivial enough to me.
Similar to Buu's insides situation. In DBZ, breathable air doesn't matter unless you're in space after some tyrant blew up the planet you both were fighting in. In DBZ, where all planets in all solar systems in the galaxy have breathable air, hospitable atmospheres, plants, frogs, humanoids that speak English/Japanese/Spanish etc, and the fact you can jump around at over 100x gravity without your testicles falling off.... Breathing inside some smoke demon becomes a big groundbreaking issue. Why would it be different inside Hildy's body?
I am sure in real life breathing masks and diving tanks would be needed for that to be achieved. But since it's DBM "magic" and "pocket dimension" suffices.
Again this bond bullshit? A bond would be Kami and Piccolo. Tapion doesn't have any inherent bond with Hildegarn. Tapion's only real bond with Hildy is the portable device Raichi himself adapted.
In fact, a Ghost Hildegarn would have a stronger mental bond (by the true defenition of the word, not yours) with Raichi than Live Hildegarn did with Tapion. Tapion could only hold Hildegarn inside himself. Raichi can totally command a Ghost Hildegarn at his will like the rest of his other ghosts.
Spent days trying to open it. However, to adapt it into a portable device, it only took him a few hours. Again, this is no longer important once we agree on the above.
Your definition of 'bond' is so liberal and vague it could just as well mean 'viagra' or 'voodoo doll'.
I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. What could inferfere with Hildegarn?
Shouldn't have brought that up then. You expressed doubts on how Hatchiyack worked, so naturally I referenced the panels where it was most directly explained.
And, I don't want to sound condescending, but replying to lenghty comments which feature images and screenshots (which may even take a time to research) with just "so?" and "how?" is straightly rude.
If you do not want people replying things you later find to be "unrelated" after you write something, try expressing your ideas more clearly (something which you haven't done so well thus far).
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Post by fooshin on Sept 16, 2016 17:12:40 GMT
Hildy debate.
Is he the actual ghost (soul) of the slain or is he just an imitation? I would think the latter. Would like to see if he can still summom pan or vegetta since they're not dead anymore. Also how did raichi get all those souls in the movie if he probably wasn't there to bear witness to their deaths (or was he?).
Either way, my understanding of what Tapion did was that he made himself smoke somehow within hildy and in the process he became completely incompacitated inside him and had no control whatsoever. I'm not even sure how aware he was enough to know when he should even come out. Too bad we didn't get to find out. If I'm right, then for raichi to do the same he would also have to give up his body and be similarly incompacitated. Although his telepathy would likely still give him control. That being said, does he really need to be inside the beast. His sheild was strong enough to protect him from a ssj3 hit when he was otherwise completely defenseless.
Regarding his micromanagement: I would think that the ghosts are relatively automonomous and raichi acts as more of a leader controlling the overall strategy but not their every movement.
And regarding their upgrades. That's a mess. Hope we'll find out for sure once the next battle starts.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 16, 2016 17:16:36 GMT
I am of the opinion that the ghosts are pretty autonomous and that Raichi just designates a target and lets them go crazy. However, the amount of teamwork they display--when we have no real reason to believe Raichi has them practicing or planning together off-screen between fights--also makes me think each ghost is capable of knowing what the others can do, and when they're going to do it. If the ghosts communicate with each other telepathically, and Raichi communicates with them telepathy, there must be some transfer of memories involved.
You didn't address the Pan/Tidar situation, so I'll bring it up again. Pan uses the Tayoken, but Raichi, Tidar, and Cell Jr. are not blinded by it. Conceivably only Cell Jr. has the reflexes to see it coming and shield himself, since Vegeta (as a SS2) could and Dabura (Perfect Cell-tier) couldn't. I wouldn't put Tidar and Raichi as physically stronger than Dabura. Even then, a good part of Vegeta's ability to dodge the Tayoken was due to seeing it before...which Tidar couldn't have, since he was dead by the time of the Cell/Dabura fight.
So, again, the only way Tidar could've avoided the Solar Flare is if 1) he'd practiced with Pan before (and off-screen practicing has never been done or referenced by anyone in the tournament, let alone Raichi) or 2) the ghosts, and by extension Raichi, have access to each other's memories.
And I wouldn't put multitasking out of Raichi's ability. The man already has telekinetic powers and is brilliant enough to build a presumably impossible ghost machine, implying a very powerful brain.
When Ghost Raditz killed Hoi, Raichi immediately understood what Hoi was up to. He had his memories.
Simply hearing Tapion play the ocarina once, Raichi was able to download the ability to play at the same level of skill to both Ghost Hanasia and Raditz. That was from just hearing him, once. Imagine what he could do with complete access to Tapion's memories.
Modifying abilities on the fly? Did Tapion practice the improved merge with Hirudegarn off-screen? Because it seemed to me he got it perfect first go. If it's simply a matter of knowledge, Raichi now has access to that knowledge due to Ghost Tapion, so he can duplicate the improved Hirudegarn effect. If it's a matter of Buu giving Tapion the ability (which I'll address two quotes down), both Hirudegarn and Tapion died with that modification having been given, so Raichi can duplicate it.
The only way Raichi's new Ghost Hirudegarn wouldn't be able to do a complete body-merge is if 1) it requires Buu modifying his (Raichi's) body with magic, or 2) it requires use of the ocarina.
Then please explain to us what you think it takes. As I see it, the only thing that might be required to form the "bond" with Hirudegarn is imprisoning him inside you with the ocarina. Even then, I see the ocarina more as a restraining tool than a magical vacuum-cleaner--a restraining tool that wouldn't be needed if Hirudegarn is obedient.
Also, Raichi has been able to duplicate/overcome magic through technology before, so he could probably emulate the ocarina's effects if it's really needed.
Also, even if the ocarina is needed to form a bond, however, Raichi could still get the ocarina through ghost Tapion.
You didn't mention the ocarina at all, though, and didn't respond to me bringing it up, leading me to think you have something else in mind. So, please, give a list or something of what's required to replicate a Hirudegarn bond so I don't misunderstand you. I'll then try to respond to your idea as best as I can.
Also compare with Raichi, 18, and Kakarot, where Buu's help did involve physically altering them in some way and not just giving knowledge to. Though we don't see what he did to give Kakarot a tail (and Kakarot apparently wasn't suspicious about suddenly getting one back after all these years), for Raichi, he touched the orb, and for 18, he zapped her with magic. 18 immediately noticed that she'd been physically changed. Tapion doesn't sense any such change in his bond--he just says that he has a better idea. Buu touched his head, just as he touched the heads of Goten, Trunks, Uub, and Cold. In the case of all four of those people, the only help they got was knowledge.
As for Frieza...assuming that that was a Buu-given ability, and not a Frost Demon/generic skill that Buu unlocked for Frieza (as he did with Uub's powers), Frieza's memory was modified to think that he always had that particular ability. Nobody knew he had it, so nobody would call him out or find anything wrong with him suddenly using it. This could not happen for Tapion. If Buu did modify the bond to allow for closer merging, and alter Tapion's memory to think that the bond had always been that way, people would still wonder why he hadn't used that merge with Hirudegarn when he fought Krillin.
Tapion does not notice a change to his bond, and he says "I figured out a much better solution." Unless DBM reveals additional evidence to the contrary later, the simplest solution is that Buu gave Tapion an idea.
"A Godzilla-sized monster turning into smoke should make sense"?
What even is your complaint? That Tapion shouldn't have been able to merge with Hirudegarn, because being inside a monster's gut and surviving is impossible? Because he did. If that's a problem for you, it's a problem with storytelling, and has no relation for disproving why Raichi can't merge with Hirudegarn as well.
Please state your complaint straight-out, so I can better respond to it.
Tapion somehow managed to merge with Hirudegarn completely--there is no little solid nucleus of Tapion within the smoke when Hirudegarn went insubstantial. Breathing is not a problem for Tapion, because the merge is magical--wherever Tapion is, it's not inside a Tapion-sized hole. Saying whether or not it makes sense doesn't change the fact that it happened. And if Tapion could merge with Hirudegarn, then Raichi could. The only possible limitation is if merging with Hirudegarn requires a specific ocarina-made "bond," and I don't think it does.
If Raichi can duplicate Hirudegarn's smoke property at all, then he can get it to work for him the way it did for Tapion, since it was not a Buu-given ability.
If Raichi's ghost version of Hirudegarn still has the same mist properties, then the only two potential speedbumps I can see are 1) Raichi needs to play the ocarina to bind ghost Hirudegarn to himself before Hirudegarn can shield him; or 2) the ability to merge with Hirudegarn is a magical property that must be given to Raichi by Buu for it to work. Again, you haven't brought up the ocarina, so I don't think you're considering option 1. Is it option 2, or something else that I've missed?
In what way is this a strawman argument? Have I dismissed your points with a "So?" or "How?" or just ignored the things I couldn't answer? I have typed out replies for each and every point you've made.
Tapion's ability to merge with Hirudegarn was a mix of several things: him, Hirudegarn, an ocarina to bind Hirudegarn inside himself, a music box to keep him inside, and Buu's influence (probably knowledge, but for the sake of humoring your argument I'll say some kind of magical modification.)
I said that Raichi has Tapion, Hirudegarn, the music box, any knowledge that Buu gave to Tapion (and, if it was magical, any modifications that he/Hirudegarn was given), and possibly the ocarina as well. That's four out of five he can definitely replicate. If any of this can somehow be sabotaged by Tapion or Hirudegarn not being cooperative, Raichi doesn't have to worry about that, because he controls them.
You said the problem was impossible for Raichi. You haven't brought up the ocarina even after I have, and when I conclude that Raichi's got four out of possibly five elements down to duplicate the Hirudegarn merge, you say it's a strawman argument--all the while refusing to say what I actually should've been arguing against. So, again, what does the bond require, according to you? To avoid any possible "strawman?"
Fine. I wouldn't say that's better than having Hirudegarn tank for you--if Old Man Krillin found a way to get around big ol' Hirudegarn and attack Tapion, I'm sure the much-faster Gast could and attack Raichi--but sure, it's still valid. Having a big Godzilla ghost would certainly be useful either way.
Raichi will have had at least two fights and a lunch break to figure something out. Even if you disagree that he can get memories directly from his ghosts, he could still just ask Ghost Tapion. (And, referring back to the Pan/Tidar example: if they can't share memories, then their ability to work together had to come from off-screen conversations. So there would still be a precedent for Raichi talking to Ghost Tapion when we couldn't seem him doing so.)
The only thing he might have to replicate are either the ocarina (assuming Tapion doesn't still have it on him) or any magical effect of Buu's that it would take to get the Hirudegarn-merge to work.
***
And Genghis, you're awesome.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 17:43:59 GMT
Hildy debate. Is he the actual ghost (soul) of the slain or is he just an imitation? I would think the latter. Would like to see if he can still summom pan or vegetta since they're not dead anymore. Also how did raichi get all those souls in the movie if he probably wasn't there to bear witness to their deaths (or was he?). Either way, my understanding of what Tapion did was that he made himself smoke somehow within hildy and in the process he became completely incompacitated inside him and had no control whatsoever. I'm not even sure how aware he was enough to know when he should even come out. Too bad we didn't get to find out. If I'm right, then for raichi to do the same he would also have to give up his body and be similarly incompacitated. Although his telepathy would likely still give him control. That being said, does he really need to be inside the beast. His sheild was strong enough to protect him from a ssj3 hit when he was otherwise completely defenseless. Regarding his micromanagement: I would think that the ghosts are relatively automonomous and raichi acts as more of a leader controlling the overall strategy but not their every movement. And regarding their upgrades. That's a mess. Hope we'll find out for sure once the next battle starts. The Ghosts are not souls. They are solid holographic copies with all the memories and data of the dead person. Ghost is just a convenient name and doesn't directly refer to the souls of the people in question. Therefore, by principle he still owns a copy of every revived person in the tournament. Raichi may not use a total multitasking telepathic control, but he has pretty good network management which allows to coordinate the Ghost attacks very well.
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Post by kinnikuman on Sept 16, 2016 17:56:37 GMT
Hildy debate. Is he the actual ghost (soul) of the slain or is he just an imitation? I would think the latter. Would like to see if he can still summom pan or vegetta since they're not dead anymore. Also how did raichi get all those souls in the movie if he probably wasn't there to bear witness to their deaths (or was he?). Either way, my understanding of what Tapion did was that he made himself smoke somehow within hildy and in the process he became completely incompacitated inside him and had no control whatsoever. I'm not even sure how aware he was enough to know when he should even come out. Too bad we didn't get to find out. If I'm right, then for raichi to do the same he would also have to give up his body and be similarly incompacitated. Although his telepathy would likely still give him control. That being said, does he really need to be inside the beast. His sheild was strong enough to protect him from a ssj3 hit when he was otherwise completely defenseless. Regarding his micromanagement: I would think that the ghosts are relatively automonomous and raichi acts as more of a leader controlling the overall strategy but not their every movement. And regarding their upgrades. That's a mess. Hope we'll find out for sure once the next battle starts. The Ghosts are not souls. They are solid holographic copies with all the memories and data of the dead person. Ghost is just a convenient name and doesn't directly refer to the souls of the people in question. Therefore, by principle he still owns a copy of every revived person in the tournament. Raichi may not use a total multitasking telepathic control, but he has pretty good network management which allows to coordinate the Ghost attacks very well. I am not so sure how well he does at multi-tasking honestly. Sure he can come up with tactics. (Hey when vegeta grabs pan, blast them both) But has he yet used them for all out fighting. I don't think he can control that many energy forms at the same time. This might be his Achelies heel.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 16, 2016 18:31:17 GMT
Furthermore,
What good is hildegarn when everyone has seen his weakness. Cell had to find out the hard way but why would raichi make himself so vulnerable inside him when gast or bra could easily destroy him just as cell did. We're really not left knowing for sure if it was the gravity that killed Tapion or hildegarns death but either way he's a one time use sheild only at best against his next foes.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 18:34:12 GMT
Furthermore, What good is hildegarn when everyone has seen his weakness. Cell had to find out the hard way but why would raichi make himself so vulnerable inside him when gast or bra could easily destroy him just as cell did. We're really not left knowing for sure if it was the gravity that killed Tapion or hildegarns death but either way he's a one time use sheild only at best against his next foes. Cell didn't have to bypass SSJ3 Vegeta, the whole 80's Planet Vegeta in Ozaru forum, God'sBladeMan, a Cell JR and a few FPSSJ to get to Hildegarn. Furthermore, it's not known if Raichi would instantly die like Tapion did. Raichi may very well be able to barely survive in 1000G (unlike Tapion, which the gravity was the thing that killed him, not Cell's or Hildegarn's death). He didn't seem to have troubles with 100 g. He appeared to be shaking, but I believe this was because of his balloon bursting due to the shockwave of being tackled/punched by a full speed SSJ3.
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Post by kinnikuman on Sept 16, 2016 18:41:10 GMT
Furthermore, What good is hildegarn when everyone has seen his weakness. Cell had to find out the hard way but why would raichi make himself so vulnerable inside him when gast or bra could easily destroy him just as cell did. We're really not left knowing for sure if it was the gravity that killed Tapion or hildegarns death but either way he's a one time use sheild only at best against his next foes. Cell didn't have to bypass SSJ3 Vegeta, the whole 80's Planet Vegeta in Ozaru forum, God'sBladeMan, a Cell JR and a few FPSSJ to get to Hildegarn. Furthermore, it's not known if Raichi would instantly die like Tapion did. Raichi may very well be able to barely survive in 1000G (unlike Tapion, which the gravity was the thing that killed him, not Cell's or Hildegarn's death). He didn't seem to have troubles with 100 g. He appeared to be shaking, but I believe this was because of his balloon bursting due to the shockwave of being tackled/punched by a full speed SSJ3. What if Raichi magical hats this. (Hides in 2nd accended from freiza and hides SS3 Vegeta in a Hildegarn? Gast kills the beast and gets Final flashed.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 19:02:00 GMT
Cell didn't have to bypass SSJ3 Vegeta, the whole 80's Planet Vegeta in Ozaru forum, God'sBladeMan, a Cell JR and a few FPSSJ to get to Hildegarn. Furthermore, it's not known if Raichi would instantly die like Tapion did. Raichi may very well be able to barely survive in 1000G (unlike Tapion, which the gravity was the thing that killed him, not Cell's or Hildegarn's death). He didn't seem to have troubles with 100 g. He appeared to be shaking, but I believe this was because of his balloon bursting due to the shockwave of being tackled/punched by a full speed SSJ3. What if Raichi magical hats this. (Hides in 2nd accended from freiza and hides SS3 Vegeta in a Hildegarn? Gast kills the beast and gets Final flashed. Not what I'd take as my first choice hypothesis but still completely plausible in my view. Surely GreatWyrmCold disagrees given the exchange you've seen in this thread.
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Post by fooshin on Sept 16, 2016 19:15:52 GMT
[/quote]Cell didn't have to bypass SSJ3 Vegeta, the whole 80's Planet Vegeta in Ozaru forum, God'sBladeMan, a Cell JR and a few FPSSJ to get to Hildegarn. Furthermore, it's not known if Raichi would instantly die like Tapion did. Raichi may very well be able to barely survive in 1000G[/quote]
But wasn't that Tapion's whole justification behind him hiding in the first place? Tapion didn't think that hildegarn had to be fought first to get to him anymore than gast would have to battle vegeta and the rest of his ghosts. One quick slip behind hildegarn and then up thru the prostate.
In reality, the best move for raichi would be to enter hildegarn and then keep him in smoke the whole battle. He can keep sending ghosts and direct the battle while being impossible to damage. Well... assuming gast doesn't hold out his hand and yell stop.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 16, 2016 19:25:37 GMT
I am not sure if I understand. Tapion decided to hide because he was afraid the experience he had with Krillin repeated: avoiding Hildy and being attacked. With Buu's suggestion, he avoided being a visible target.
Raichi could use the same principle. Gast going behind Hildy would imply more than a quick slip, it implies:
A)Surpassing all the ghosts in the front with none of them having chance to react (quite unlikely) B)Charge a sharp enough attack, fast enough so Raichi doesn't turn Hildegarn doesn't turn into smoke.
If he fails in A, he wouldn't even reach Hildegarn/Raichi. If he fails in B, he will be in an open position for all the ghosts to attack. Just slightly piercing Hildegarn isn't enough to kill him though. Cell fisted him like Vegeta did to Kakarotto and still kept fighting.
Then, there is also the possibility 1000g wouldn't kill Raichi like it killed Tapion. Managing to kill Ghost Hildy would still mean to have to destroy Raichi's shield (and ofcourse his other ghosts simultaneously).
While Hildegarn isn't impressive by himself, he's a valuable addition to a chessgame like this.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 16, 2016 19:44:05 GMT
All are helpless against the mighty stop._ But you bring up a good point: how do you hurt Hildegarn if he never comes out of smoke mode? Is there a limit to how long he can stay smokey? Does it use up his power? Cell only was able to kill Hildegarn because he tricked him into thinking the fight was over, after all--even sucking Hildegarn into him didn't really do anything. With Raichi controlling Hildegarn, the monster would never make that mistake against Gast. This might actually be a real game-deciding issue; Gast might be too strong for any of Raichi's ghosts to threaten him, but finding a way around Hildegarn's smoke might be tricky...unless he has some magical power to force Hildegarn to stay in physical form?
It's funny how DBM's Hildegarn, despite being way weaker than the movie version, might be even more broken if there's no limit to his smoke-form. How do you kill smoke? How do you kill Raichi if he's in the smoke?
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