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Post by drewsaga on Jan 20, 2019 21:11:52 GMT
The newest mini-comic had me thinking, what if Cell was destined to win this tournament?
At first it didn't seem like he was getting far, in fact, I thought Cell would lose to Tapion and his Hilduegarn or whatever that monster's name is spelt. But I was proven wrong there clearly, he won. Would have liked to see Vegeta vs Tapion and his monster though but nevertheless, I can't complain either way since we know it's a serious fight. At the beginning of the tournament, Cell held himself back to FPSSJ Goku levels which we knew it was impossible that he got weaker, Vegetto stated such as well.
So the first question might be how powerful is Cell initally when he entered the tournament? That seems to be uncertain but we know that he has gotten zenkai after zenkai, it's actually scary. His power level kept shooting up.
Cell was said to be weaker than when he came back (Super Perfect Cell), but again, we knew he had to be stronger. What we didn't know was how powerful Cell was. He was pretty much high-tier SSJ2 (like Buu Saga SSJ2 Goku and Majin SSJ2 Vegeta, clearly stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan). There may be a chance he is top-tier SSJ2 or bottom-tier SSJ3 (U18 SSJ2 Vegeta, U18 SSJ2 Goku, U13 SSJ3 Vegeta, their power levels are pretty close to each other despite U13 Vegeta being in a higher form)
During the fight with Tapion and his monster, he had yet received another zenkai boost after getting brutalized and exploding, and then sliced right through the beast, killing it and Tapion. That secures his spot at SSJ3-tier (Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku or at least close to it, maybe equal to the ).
Needless to say, my confidence in Vegeta winning against Cell dropped quite a bit after that. Vegeta's secret power has got to be something else. Cell has gained a lot of power from being Majin as well, much like Vegeta did during the Buu Saga. And is near Mystic levels, at least as powerful as Super Buu or SSJ3 Gotenks since his attacks have even done damage to Mystic Gohan. DBM SSJ3 Goku's power is comparable to Mystic Gohan though just to be on the same page.
If U18 Vegeta fought Majin Cell instead of regular Cell I can't imagine how he would even be able to win, maybe with that fancy attack he had in the novel he used against U13 Kakarotto but that was only in the novel. Not only that but if Cell had another Zenkai boost, U18 Goku and U18 Vegeta would surely fall.
Of course in the later panels Gohan was also beating Cell as well, I think Gohan WAS stronger than Majin Cell, until...
Majin Cell got yet another Zenkai boost, so he might now be AT LEAST as strong as Mystic Gohan or he could even be at Buutenks level. Even if we don't factor in the boost of power the Majin boost gives, Cell is somewhere between Kid Buu and Super Buu (and yes, Super Buu is MUCH stronger, Goku was afraid to face off against that form of Buu without fusion). This means either Vegeta is forced to use his full power against Cell (and that is not even a sure victory) or he simply loses, and if Cell keeps the power boost he has gotten from being Majin, well, he loses, as does U18 Goku in the semifinal, if Uub wins against Goku somehow, then maybe his magic powers Zen Buu taught him will come in handy but in physical power, he is no match neither. I hope Vegeta is the one that wins but it's looking less and less likely as this continues.
And it's not a coincidence that in a lot of the other mini-comics, Cell is in the finals, sure, they are joke pages but it's almost always CELL that's in the final round with one of them winning.
That cannot be a coincidence, something is happening with Cell, not to mention the side story with the "weak" Cell Jr.. Another factor at play here is XXI, you know, the one that defeated Vegetto by teleporting him and #18 by deactivating her. I think XXI was afraid of facing the Android more than Vegetto because his magic won't work on her like it did on the extremely powerful fused Saiyan.
It's possible that XXI's motives will be revealed when he fights Buu as his true power is as well and Zen Buu may lose. And for Gast vs Bra, I think XXI will beat either one, XXI can beat Bra the same way he beat Vegetto and if Zen Buu couldn't beat XXI I don't see how Gast will. Then again, a couple of those same mini-comics also show Cell vs Gast in the finals so it's possible he manages to beat XXI but then there is an important point in the story with one of Bardock's flashbacks:
My guess is that Cell may actually manage to be the one to defeat XXI, he is also an Android as well and XXI's magic is weak against Androids as Yamcha confirms. This leads to XXI going amuck and it's possible that he might try to seize control of Vegetto's body and go for the Dragon Balls, but Gohan thwarts XXI's plan but then get's choked to death, he is already using an existing body as a host so he might do something similar to what Ginyu does and use Vegetto as the host and take over his mind, leaving us with an epic battle against the strongest:
And where does Cell fit in this? Not sure, but I think Cell may join the heroes in the fight against XXI, but he might end up getting defeated by XXI after the tourney is over when XXI takes control of Vegettos body since he would be no match for Vegetto unless he got 12 more zenkais probably. Cell Jr may also team up with the Z-fighters as well and become friends with Goku and the others Meanwhile Cell might just get destroyed by a Vegetto running amok. Then Goku and Vegeta fuse to become Gogeta and fight Vegetto and manages to win and XXI retreats into another body, but then Yamcha may end up cornering XXI even further and then talking smack to him. I don't think I could predict that far ahead really, just about anything could happen at that point but that's the idea. That Cell maybe another big piece to the whole plot with XXI and the tournament.
I want to know what everyone thinks of this theory that Cell might win the whole tournament and may actually be a critical part of the plot more than we realize.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2019 21:33:22 GMT
drewsagaI never noticed all the final round minicomics featured Cell. It does seem to be an obvious match-up to have Goku vs Vegeta in the semi-finals but Cell might be too much for them depending on how powerful he gets by the end of this conflict. I don't think he would retain the Majin boost but he might be able to keep the Zenkai he received from Nedwook. Good theory and I hope the tournament does continue after this!
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Jan 20, 2019 22:35:42 GMT
I think the tournament will go to shit if Buu loses to XXI like people are speculating, so there might not be a tournament for Cell to win.
That being said, he's definitely not a buddy to the good guys, so he has to lose eventually. He was able to match (surpass?) Gohan, but he needed Majin for that and he's been seen in awe at the power levels of some of the contestants, so he knew he was out of their league when he first arrived, and not by a small amount.
Cell knows he needs zenkais to challenge the strongest fighters, and has got a few of them already, but I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns with zenkais. He was higher than a FPSSJ1 Goku, probably knocking on SSJ2 already, and after he literally blew himself up he was still only able to push himself to fresh SSJ2 level and match an injured Gohan. A transformation is no small feat, and the power gain was significant, but to sit at the same table as Mystic Gohan, Gast, Vegetto, etc. he's gonna need a fair amount of zenkais.
Who knows, he has Frost Demon cells so he could try for an augmentation form or something. It feels weird to me to see Cell reaching SSJ3 levels just with zenkais considering SSJ3 doesn't work like the others and has many drawbacks.
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Post by thequebecois on Jan 21, 2019 2:47:15 GMT
Didn't Vegeta keep the majin boost even after his death? I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for Cell
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 21, 2019 3:25:01 GMT
This is all assuming, of course, that the tournament continues after the Majin rebellion (which I think it will, if nothing else because Vegito, Buu, and XXI will flip out if it won't) and that Cell gets readmitted into it. This is a bit more iffy. All the Majins could very understandably claim they were under Babidi's control and not entirely at fault for their actions, and while this doesn't exactly apply to Cell--I think it's clear he's 95% autonomous as a Majin--I doubt anyone would look far enough into it to keep him from participating. From a meta perspective, it would be VERY foolish of Salagir to set up Vegeta vs. Cell and not let us see it. Cell's performance against Gohan makes it unlikely Vegeta could beat him. In the " What is Dragon Ball?" section of the site, Gohan is described as "the strongest of all," so regardless of whether or not Salagir's idea of the gap between SS3 Buu saga Goku and Mystic Gohan is the same as mine (hint: a VERY VERY BIG gap), I think it's safe to say that Gohan is at a level Vegeta can't reach. Considering how beat up both Cell and Gohan were in their brief fight, Cell is at Gohan's level with his Majin boost. I'll also second what thequebecois said: Vegeta kept his Majin boost even when he was no longer a Majin, so it makes sense that Cell would, too. This presents a problem, because I think all of us just naturally assumed ever since Round 1 finished that Goku vs. Vegeta would be the semifinals, and if Cell's got zenkais on top of a Majin boost Vegeta shouldn't stand a chance against him. Many readers have noticed that the right side of the tournament bracket is pretty stacked against the left side. It's my opinion that Cell has more potential than any normal Saiyan--a hypothetical Mystic Cell would not only be stronger than Gohan, but a LOT stronger. This means that if we disregarded plot, Cell would ironically be the left-bracket contestant with the best chance against the right-side monsters due to his higher PL and myriad abilities. Of course, plot dictates that what is most realistic in-universe doesn't always happen; if Cell won the tournament, then this would be a Cell fanfic, not a DBZ sequel. Still, odds are XXI will take out U4 Buu (who is otherwise unbeatable) in order to preserve his Big Bad cred. If Bra beats XXI by some bullcrap, Cell has a better chance against her than Goku or Vegeta, and if XXI wins, Cell will have had four opportunities to watch XXI in action, giving him a very good chance to come up with a counter (if XXI can indeed be countered.) So I suppose that in-universe the odds are more in Cell's favor to win the tournament than Goku, Vegeta, or Uub's. If U4 Buu's dealt with, Cell has a very good shot on his own merits of beating either Bra or Gast and no worse odds against XXI than anyone else. Cell vs. Gast...that'd be a good fight.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 21, 2019 3:25:49 GMT
I think the tournament will go to shit if Buu loses to XXI like people are speculating, so there might not be a tournament for Cell to win. That being said, he's definitely not a buddy to the good guys, so he has to lose eventually. He was able to match (surpass?) Gohan, but he needed Majin for that and he's been seen in awe at the power levels of some of the contestants, so he knew he was out of their league when he first arrived, and not by a small amount. Cell knows he needs zenkais to challenge the strongest fighters, and has got a few of them already, but I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns with zenkais. He was higher than a FPSSJ1 Goku, probably knocking on SSJ2 already, and after he literally blew himself up he was still only able to push himself to fresh SSJ2 level and match an injured Gohan. A transformation is no small feat, and the power gain was significant, but to sit at the same table as Mystic Gohan, Gast, Vegetto, etc. he's gonna need a fair amount of zenkais. Who knows, he has Frost Demon cells so he could try for an augmentation form or something. It feels weird to me to see Cell reaching SSJ3 levels just with zenkais considering SSJ3 doesn't work like the others and has many drawbacks. I think XXI might actually seal Buu up or contain him completely with no trace of him outside. XXI's magical prowess is far greater than Babidi and he has the the power to seal Buu, as did his father.
As for Cell, well, I mean he might be only able to match Gohan thanks to being Majin but Gohan was stronger than Vegeta as well and there wasn't any hint that Vegeta's "new power" is greater than SSJ3.
And with the tourney Cell may not even have to be on Zen Buu nor Vegetto's level anyways. XXI will probably beat Buu and the winner between Bra and Gast and XXI's magic might be weak against Androids, which is why he asked for a remote control to deactivate #18.
He might not be able to use is magic as effectively against Cell, giving Cell the edge. So the strongest opponent in raw power Cell faces may be Goku if this theory comes to pass. Of course, there is always the chance he will lose, Vegeta's not going to be a pushover after all and we don't know his true power neither.
As for Cell being the bad guy, well, we know that he is but he doesn't have a real wish. His own wish is to have amusement and destruction at the expense of others, not something a dragon can grant directly as that's a very vague wish.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 21, 2019 3:28:59 GMT
Didn't Vegeta keep the majin boost even after his death? I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for Cell Vegeta kept SSJ2 but he was still weaker than SSJ2 Goku.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 21, 2019 3:44:09 GMT
This is all assuming, of course, that the tournament continues after the Majin rebellion (which I think it will, if nothing else because Vegito, Buu, and XXI will flip out if it won't) and that Cell gets readmitted into it. This is a bit more iffy. All the Majins could very understandably claim they were under Babidi's control and not entirely at fault for their actions, and while this doesn't exactly apply to Cell--I think it's clear he's 95% autonomous as a Majin--I doubt anyone would look far enough into it to keep him from participating. From a meta perspective, it would be VERY foolish of Salagir to set up Vegeta vs. Cell and not let us see it. Cell's performance against Gohan makes it unlikely Vegeta could beat him. In the " What is Dragon Ball?" section of the site, Gohan is described as "the strongest of all," so regardless of whether or not Salagir's idea of the gap between SS3 Buu saga Goku and Mystic Gohan is the same as mine (hint: a VERY VERY BIG gap), I think it's safe to say that Gohan is at a level Vegeta can't reach. Considering how beat up both Cell and Gohan were in their brief fight, Cell is at Gohan's level with his Majin boost. I'll also second what thequebecois said: Vegeta kept his Majin boost even when he was no longer a Majin, so it makes sense that Cell would, too. This presents a problem, because I think all of us just naturally assumed ever since Round 1 finished that Goku vs. Vegeta would be the semifinals, and if Cell's got zenkais on top of a Majin boost Vegeta shouldn't stand a chance against him. Many readers have noticed that the right side of the tournament bracket is pretty stacked against the left side. It's my opinion that Cell has more potential than any normal Saiyan--a hypothetical Mystic Cell would not only be stronger than Gohan, but a LOT stronger. This means that if we disregarded plot, Cell would ironically be the left-bracket contestant with the best chance against the right-side monsters due to his higher PL and myriad abilities. Of course, plot dictates that what is most realistic in-universe doesn't always happen; if Cell won the tournament, then this would be a Cell fanfic, not a DBZ sequel. Still, odds are XXI will take out U4 Buu (who is otherwise unbeatable) in order to preserve his Big Bad cred. If Bra beats XXI by some bullcrap, Cell has a better chance against her than Goku or Vegeta, and if XXI wins, Cell will have had four opportunities to watch XXI in action, giving him a very good chance to come up with a counter (if XXI can indeed be countered.) So I suppose that in-universe the odds are more in Cell's favor to win the tournament than Goku, Vegeta, or Uub's. If U4 Buu's dealt with, Cell has a very good shot on his own merits of beating either Bra or Gast and no worse odds against XXI than anyone else. Cell vs. Gast...that'd be a good fight. Well DBM SSJ3 Goku is considerably stronger than Mystic Gohan and we know DBM SSJ2 Vegeta is pretty close to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta in power, close enough that U13 Vegeta would lose. And Vegeta is apperantly hiding some new power that is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 level. Mystic Gohan is still stronger, but not that much stronger. I wager that this Vegeta is at least above Kid Buu and Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku by a small magin.
Whether Vegeta stands a chance or not depends more on whether Cell get's to keep his Majin power up or not. I think it's unlikely though that he keeps it, I mean Vegeta only kept SSJ2 so Cell might only keep the Zenkai, if Vegeta's power level was the same in his regular base as his Majin base, then why would Spopovitch be any more powerful than before? He may look ugly as a majin but he didn't really "transform". Not to mention Vegeta is a more seasoned fighter than Gohan and that is what puts Gohan at a disadvantage facing Cell over Vegeta but idk how much that will play into things.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 21, 2019 4:06:49 GMT
drewsaga Broooo plz learn how to use spoiler tags if you intend to post half of the comic!!! I'm trying to fix the unreadable mess that your post was now. Scrolling it down took longer than running through the snake's way and fixing it will take at least 2x as long. EDIT: And now it became a div ridden mess. Sorry for the inconvenience, shit, I had to delete all images. Hope you don't mind. The code was too messy to fix. This probably was not your fault but a bug in the code (it sometimes happens).
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Post by The Masterman on Jan 21, 2019 4:18:40 GMT
Cell probably won't win, there's still Vegito Bra, Ghast, Goku, Vegita, Zen Buu and XXI.
Its more likely that Cell will be the first of these 8 powerhouses to be eliminated so he's getting more screen/page time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 4:23:29 GMT
I don't think anyone is going to win the tournament tbh. I think shit is gonna hit that fan so hard that we may not even get those "show matches" that I was speakin about with someone in some other thread that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
My money is on Goku being crowned the "unofficial" winner due to him being the victor over Uub in the last official match before all hell breaks loose and Goku wishes for an oven with unlimited roast chickens coming out of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 4:52:01 GMT
Well DBM SSJ3 Goku is considerably stronger than Mystic Gohan and we know DBM SSJ2 Vegeta is pretty close to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta in power, close enough that U13 Vegeta would lose. Gohan is still the strongest in U18 (unless it changed since this was stated). In DBM canon, Old Kai's ability unlocked Gohan's full max potential without any drawbacks so he basically has access to a "FP"SSJ3. Goku might win in a fight due to his skill but I don't think Goku is going to surpass Gohan in raw power.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 21, 2019 5:00:44 GMT
Well DBM SSJ3 Goku is considerably stronger than Mystic Gohan and we know DBM SSJ2 Vegeta is pretty close to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta in power, close enough that U13 Vegeta would lose. Gohan is still the strongest in U18 (unless it changed since this was stated). In DBM canon, Old Kai's ability unlocked Gohan's full max potential without any drawbacks so he basically has access to a "FP"SSJ3. Goku might win in a fight due to his skill but I don't think Goku is going to surpass Gohan in raw power. + Possibly Ozaru too, since we have seen SSJ forms can be stacked with it (per Kakarotto and Hanasia fanfic) this should also be taken into account for max. saiyan potential. This is a barrier Goku (or Vegeta) can no longer overcome since they lack tails. Gohan also lacks a tail but thanks to the "Mystic" he doesn't need it. Well DBM SSJ3 Goku is considerably stronger than Mystic Gohan and we know DBM SSJ2 Vegeta is pretty close to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta in power, close enough that U13 Vegeta would lose. And Vegeta is apperantly hiding some new power that is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 level. Mystic Gohan is still stronger, but not that much stronger. I wager that this Vegeta is at least above Kid Buu and Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku by a small magin.
Whether Vegeta stands a chance or not depends more on whether Cell get's to keep his Majin power up or not. I think it's unlikely though that he keeps it, I mean Vegeta only kept SSJ2 so Cell might only keep the Zenkai, if Vegeta's power level was the same in his regular base as his Majin base, then why would Spopovitch be any more powerful than before? He may look ugly as a majin but he didn't really "transform". Not to mention Vegeta is a more seasoned fighter than Gohan and that is what puts Gohan at a disadvantage facing Cell over Vegeta but idk how much that will play into things.
Nope, only DBS Goku is maybe. He's considerably weaker in DBM. He's even weaker than SSJ1 Bra. It's not even clear if he can deal with Super Buu now.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Jan 21, 2019 9:42:56 GMT
This is all assuming, of course, that the tournament continues after the Majin rebellion (which I think it will, if nothing else because Vegito, Buu, and XXI will flip out if it won't) and that Cell gets readmitted into it. This is a bit more iffy. All the Majins could very understandably claim they were under Babidi's control and not entirely at fault for their actions, and while this doesn't exactly apply to Cell--I think it's clear he's 95% autonomous as a Majin--I doubt anyone would look far enough into it to keep him from participating. From a meta perspective, it would be VERY foolish of Salagir to set up Vegeta vs. Cell and not let us see it. Cell's performance against Gohan makes it unlikely Vegeta could beat him. In the " What is Dragon Ball?" section of the site, Gohan is described as "the strongest of all," so regardless of whether or not Salagir's idea of the gap between SS3 Buu saga Goku and Mystic Gohan is the same as mine (hint: a VERY VERY BIG gap), I think it's safe to say that Gohan is at a level Vegeta can't reach. Considering how beat up both Cell and Gohan were in their brief fight, Cell is at Gohan's level with his Majin boost. I'll also second what thequebecois said: Vegeta kept his Majin boost even when he was no longer a Majin, so it makes sense that Cell would, too. This presents a problem, because I think all of us just naturally assumed ever since Round 1 finished that Goku vs. Vegeta would be the semifinals, and if Cell's got zenkais on top of a Majin boost Vegeta shouldn't stand a chance against him. Many readers have noticed that the right side of the tournament bracket is pretty stacked against the left side. It's my opinion that Cell has more potential than any normal Saiyan--a hypothetical Mystic Cell would not only be stronger than Gohan, but a LOT stronger. This means that if we disregarded plot, Cell would ironically be the left-bracket contestant with the best chance against the right-side monsters due to his higher PL and myriad abilities. Of course, plot dictates that what is most realistic in-universe doesn't always happen; if Cell won the tournament, then this would be a Cell fanfic, not a DBZ sequel. Still, odds are XXI will take out U4 Buu (who is otherwise unbeatable) in order to preserve his Big Bad cred. If Bra beats XXI by some bullcrap, Cell has a better chance against her than Goku or Vegeta, and if XXI wins, Cell will have had four opportunities to watch XXI in action, giving him a very good chance to come up with a counter (if XXI can indeed be countered.) So I suppose that in-universe the odds are more in Cell's favor to win the tournament than Goku, Vegeta, or Uub's. If U4 Buu's dealt with, Cell has a very good shot on his own merits of beating either Bra or Gast and no worse odds against XXI than anyone else. Cell vs. Gast...that'd be a good fight. Well DBM SSJ3 Goku is considerably stronger than Mystic Gohan and we know DBM SSJ2 Vegeta is pretty close to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta in power, close enough that U13 Vegeta would lose. And Vegeta is apperantly hiding some new power that is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 level. Mystic Gohan is still stronger, but not that much stronger. I wager that this Vegeta is at least above Kid Buu and Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku by a small magin.
Whether Vegeta stands a chance or not depends more on whether Cell get's to keep his Majin power up or not. I think it's unlikely though that he keeps it, I mean Vegeta only kept SSJ2 so Cell might only keep the Zenkai, if Vegeta's power level was the same in his regular base as his Majin base, then why would Spopovitch be any more powerful than before? He may look ugly as a majin but he didn't really "transform". Not to mention Vegeta is a more seasoned fighter than Gohan and that is what puts Gohan at a disadvantage facing Cell over Vegeta but idk how much that will play into things.
Goku could be stronger but SSJ3 drains you quickly, which is a significant drawback next to Mystic. Not needing to transform is pretty OP when you think of it. Mystic seems to be the most efficient state of all. I'm not a huge fan of this decision to nerf SSJ3 because it makes the stage all but useless for characters like Vegetto, who can only sustain the form for seconds, and doesn't give any reward for perfecting it. I know Vegetto is a poor example since he's so powerful already, but U13 Vegeta did pay for his foolishness. Judging by U18 Vegeta's comments on SSJ3 I believe he's found a middle term like Goku did with FPSSJ1, but it's still not enough to defeat Cell provided he keeps the boost. You have a point that he might not keep it, though, since Majin Vegeta could match and defeat SSJ2 Goku on equal terms, which Vegeta would later learn was for nothing since Goku had kept SSJ3 a secret.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 21, 2019 18:31:06 GMT
Well DBM SSJ3 Goku is considerably stronger than Mystic Gohan and we know DBM SSJ2 Vegeta is pretty close to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta in power, close enough that U13 Vegeta would lose. And Vegeta is apparently hiding some new power that is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 level. Mystic Gohan is still stronger, but not that much stronger. I wager that this Vegeta is at least above Kid Buu and Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku by a small magin.
Whether Vegeta stands a chance or not depends more on whether Cell get's to keep his Majin power up or not. I think it's unlikely though that he keeps it, I mean Vegeta only kept SSJ2 so Cell might only keep the Zenkai, if Vegeta's power level was the same in his regular base as his Majin base, then why would Spopovitch be any more powerful than before? He may look ugly as a majin but he didn't really "transform". Not to mention Vegeta is a more seasoned fighter than Gohan and that is what puts Gohan at a disadvantage facing Cell over Vegeta but idk how much that will play into things.
Goku could be stronger but SSJ3 drains you quickly, which is a significant drawback next to Mystic. Not needing to transform is pretty OP when you think of it. Mystic seems to be the most efficient state of all. I'm not a huge fan of this decision to nerf SSJ3 because it makes the stage all but useless for characters like Vegetto, who can only sustain the form for seconds, and doesn't give any reward for perfecting it. I know Vegetto is a poor example since he's so powerful already, but U13 Vegeta did pay for his foolishness. Judging by U18 Vegeta's comments on SSJ3 I believe he's found a middle term like Goku did with FPSSJ1, but it's still not enough to defeat Cell provided he keeps the boost. You have a point that he might not keep it, though, since Majin Vegeta could match and defeat SSJ2 Goku on equal terms, which Vegeta would later learn was for nothing since Goku had kept SSJ3 a secret. Oh crap, I just realized that I may have made a mistake. Mystic Gohan is still stronger than DBM SSJ3 Goku, not actually sure on this one but I may have messed up there. And yes, SSJ3 has a negative drawback but I suspect that U18 Goku is the least vulnerable to that weakness out of all the characters with SSJ3. U13 Vegeta just got SSJ3 and had no time to adjust to it and Vegetto SSJ3 is so powerful it only lasted with one big attack and SSJ3 Gotenks didn't last long neither.
As for Cell and Vegeta, I don't think Cell is keeping the Majin boost once he isn't majin anymore. But he does keep the Zenkai and that will still give Vegeta trouble.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 21, 2019 18:31:51 GMT
Gohan is still the strongest in U18 (unless it changed since this was stated). In DBM canon, Old Kai's ability unlocked Gohan's full max potential without any drawbacks so he basically has access to a "FP"SSJ3. Goku might win in a fight due to his skill but I don't think Goku is going to surpass Gohan in raw power. + Possibly Ozaru too, since we have seen SSJ forms can be stacked with it (per Kakarotto and Hanasia fanfic) this should also be taken into account for max. saiyan potential. This is a barrier Goku (or Vegeta) can no longer overcome since they lack tails. Gohan also lacks a tail but thanks to the "Mystic" he doesn't need it. Well DBM SSJ3 Goku is considerably stronger than Mystic Gohan and we know DBM SSJ2 Vegeta is pretty close to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta in power, close enough that U13 Vegeta would lose. And Vegeta is apperantly hiding some new power that is somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3 level. Mystic Gohan is still stronger, but not that much stronger. I wager that this Vegeta is at least above Kid Buu and Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku by a small magin.
Whether Vegeta stands a chance or not depends more on whether Cell get's to keep his Majin power up or not. I think it's unlikely though that he keeps it, I mean Vegeta only kept SSJ2 so Cell might only keep the Zenkai, if Vegeta's power level was the same in his regular base as his Majin base, then why would Spopovitch be any more powerful than before? He may look ugly as a majin but he didn't really "transform". Not to mention Vegeta is a more seasoned fighter than Gohan and that is what puts Gohan at a disadvantage facing Cell over Vegeta but idk how much that will play into things.
Nope, only DBS Goku is maybe. He's considerably weaker in DBM. He's even weaker than SSJ1 Bra. It's not even clear if he can deal with Super Buu now. Yeah, I messed up there, that was my mistake. I think Goku probably could deal with Super Buu or at least hold his own but even then Mystic Gohan was tearing Buu apart before he absorbed Gotenks.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 22, 2019 0:23:32 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes.
Obviously Freeza and his family are the most apparent ones to come in mind. It has become a recurring joke at this point, but the others have as well. Bojack got humiliated by Cell and killed off as helplessly as the enemies and allies he has killed over the centuries. Demon King Piccolo got called out on how Kami has inserted goodness in him and it is slowly and gradually influencing him while getting defeated easily by Gast. Both cyborgs were made sport of by people they either killed in their universe easily or crushed by the man they were made to kill. Babidi got both his fighters beaten and will likely suffer some more crow after his revolt ends. U13 Vegeta was slaughtered by the weak Tuffle he saw benath him despite achieving SS3 power he thought made him equal or greater than the other Saiyans at the tournaments after replacing Freeza as the new emperor of the universe.
Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Jan 22, 2019 10:16:53 GMT
I kinda see Raichi with some contempt. He was useful as a plot device, and he would have to win against Vegeta if the two fought for the sake of plot and character development, but didn't the Tuffles enslave the Saiyans and thought themselves above the "monkeys"? If so, his actions were simply out of pride, arrogance and vengeance rather than justice. Besides, I lack sympathy for summoners who are completely reliant on their summons to do any damage at all.
Frieza got spanked around like a mutt but it still could've been handled better. U8 is one of the weakest timelines in DBM IMO despite the promise it had. Why not have Frieza and Cooler progressing via infighting in order to surpass Cold or even themselves? The mere fact Frieza was not almighty after defeating Goku could have motivated him to surpass his family. Salagir didn't have to make Frieza sit at SSJ3 levels, but some respect for the most influential villain in all of DBZ would be more in line with the character. He could've had Goku dent Frieza by pushing himself really hard with Kaioken in a useless sacrifice that would still hurt Frieza's pride like Leonidas did in 300 instead of having Ginyu, who besides the Change ability is barely above a random grunt when it comes to personality, as the main star of U8.
Cell on the other hand I think is being handled very well. A tournament of power is within his zone of comfort, since he enjoys fighting. He's prideful and hates the fact there are fighters stronger than him, but he's been in this situation before, so he knows what to do and how to exploit his opponents' weaknesses. He has a personal vendetta against Gohan due to learning he died at Gohan's hands in all the other universes featured in DBM they fought in. This is why if he goes down, it's gonna be with a bang, and anyone outside of the superpowered characters like Vegetto, etc. would have their hands full in a fight against him.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 22, 2019 15:01:06 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. Obviously Freeza and his family are the most apparent ones to come in mind. It has become a recurring joke at this point, but the others have as well. Bojack got humiliated by Cell and killed off as helplessly as the enemies and allies he has killed over the centuries. Demon King Piccolo got called out on how Kami has inserted goodness in him and it is slowly and gradually influencing him while getting defeated easily by Gast. Both cyborgs were made sport of by people they either killed in their universe easily or crushed by the man they were made to kill. Babidi got both his fighters beaten and will likely suffer some more crow after his revolt ends. U13 Vegeta was slaughtered by the weak Tuffle he saw benath him despite achieving SS3 power he thought made him equal or greater than the other Saiyans at the tournaments after replacing Freeza as the new emperor of the universe. Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. To be fair, Vegeta deserved that humiliation for the shit he was doing the entirety of the Android and Cell Saga. He freaking let's Cell become perfect, not that he gives a shit about the Earth but even then that was a stupid move if he gave a crap about himself. You had Kami making a sacrifice to merge with Piccolo, all the trouble of him trying to hunt the crafty Cell down and then fight #17 and Tien busting his balls to keep Cell away from #18 just for Vegeta to throw all the hard effort away (Krillin has fault too but Vegeta had the power to end it).
Anyways I don't think Cell vs Vegeta is so one-sided as the other fights you mentioned. I wonder of Cell's humiliation has any ties with the poor Cell Jr that got killed by U9 Videl.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 22, 2019 15:03:30 GMT
I kinda see Raichi with some contempt. He was useful as a plot device, and he would have to win against Vegeta if the two fought for the sake of plot and character development, but didn't the Tuffles enslave the Saiyans and thought themselves above the "monkeys"? If so, his actions were simply out of pride, arrogance and vengeance rather than justice. Besides, I lack sympathy for summoners who are completely reliant on their summons to do any damage at all. Frieza got spanked around like a mutt but it still could've been handled better. U8 is one of the weakest timelines in DBM IMO despite the promise it had. Why not have Frieza and Cooler progressing via infighting in order to surpass Cold or even themselves? The mere fact Frieza was not almighty after defeating Goku could have motivated him to surpass his family. Salagir didn't have to make Frieza sit at SSJ3 levels, but some respect for the most influential villain in all of DBZ would be more in line with the character. He could've had Goku dent Frieza by pushing himself really hard with Kaioken in a useless sacrifice that would still hurt Frieza's pride like Leonidas did in 300 instead of having Ginyu, who besides the Change ability is barely above a random grunt when it comes to personality, as the main star of U8. Cell on the other hand I think is being handled very well. A tournament of power is within his zone of comfort, since he enjoys fighting. He's prideful and hates the fact there are fighters stronger than him, but he's been in this situation before, so he knows what to do and how to exploit his opponents' weaknesses. He has a personal vendetta against Gohan due to learning he died at Gohan's hands in all the other universes featured in DBM they fought in. This is why if he goes down, it's gonna be with a bang, and anyone outside of the superpowered characters like Vegetto, etc. would have their hands full in a fight against him. Raichi just has a case of angry old man with vengeance. U13 Vegeta was an evil fuck like Frieza is.
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