??????
|
Post by VoidSlayer on Feb 6, 2019 10:06:40 GMT
I agreed with you on that one, i just confused either side of the bracket in a moment of blatant stupidity. Bra's close to SS1 Vegito levels, and even then it's stated in the novel that he doesn't even have to use half his power in that form to beat her SS2. So if you had 2 near Mystic level opponents facing her i think she'd have a hard time. If you had all 4 lefties fight her i'd say she'd go down pretty hard- UUb's Fat Buu tier (approx) and the rest would be top SS3/Mystic) as for XXI i think it's hard to define because like Goku and Vegeta he hasn't shown any power feats that puts him in a specific tier. I mean he has to be strong, but we have no evidence to show exactly how strong he is in terms of combat power, since he's literally won his matches with magical tricks and is avoiding the current majin rebellion. What opponents would these be?
We've got Cell and...that's about it. Uub defeated Majin Buu not through combat, but through a "ring out" technicality even though he was still in the ring and literally everyone knew where he was (with Buu breaking out a mere microsecond too late). Majin Buu is nowhere near the strength of, say, Buuhan that required Vegito's creation in the first place. Following this we have Goku, who as far as we can tell hasn't progressed much, if at all, since the Buu Saga and has taken on more of a mentor role to Uub. So he's at SS3 levels, which wouldn't last long anyway because of the crazy power drain. Goku himself is vastly weaker than Super Buu even at his maximum SS3 power, which he can't access anyway since he's alive.Finally bringing up the rear we have Vegeta. He doesn't have SS3 that we know of, and has some kind of "trump card" that he's had up his sleeve for years now of DBM's publication. So his power could be anywhere from weaker than SS3 Goku in a classic case of Vegeta deluding himself again, or stronger than SS3 Goku. How much stronger? Who knows? And yet, when Ginyu took control of Bra and went SS2, Vegito didn't just casually mop the floor with him using 50% of his SS1 power, he powered up to SS2 and then even into SS3! So clearly, Bra has much more potential than she's apparently capable of using that Ginyu is just able to use right off the bat because he's evil or something. B ut even ignoring this, let's frame the argument another way, using the quote you provided. If SS1 Vegito using 50% of his strength fought against Uub, Goku, Vegeta and Cell, do you not think this would be a curbstomp for Vegito? Is there anything indicating he even used 25% of his strength against Buuhan even? Because if it is a curbstomp, congratulations, we now have Bra vs these 4 in the same conditions. If it isn't, then I question Vegito's entire concept as a character in DBM. First Bold: Cell (proven), Vegeta or Goku. I know we haven't see evidence of them reaching that ultimate SS3 tier, but i feel after 10 years of consistent training they'd be close. Admittedly more of a belief since we haven't seen either of them fight an opponent seriously, but they have proven to be able to close the gap between Gohan before through training (Start of the Buu saga). As for Uub you'll have no arguments from me. At best he's a basic SS3, probably weaker considering he stated he's weaker then Fat Buu. Second Bold- I can't picture Goku not training hard, even with the additional responsibility of traning Uub as well. Despite SS3's fluctuating power showings i feel confident in stating that at some point in DBM it'll be mentioned/shown that he's surpassed Super Buu, or someone (likely piccolo) will say "Wow, he's pushed the 3rd level so far, Super Buu wouldn't have stood a chance if they'd fought now!" I put Vegeta on that high level since even though we haven't seen him even use SS3, let alone anything greater/equaivalent, the novelisation commentry that his SS2 is nearly as strong as a basic SS3 give me reason to suspect that he'll be a top SS3 when all is said and done. Final bold- No, not at all. If they were at their Buu saga/Cell saga levels then they wouldn't stand a chance in hell against even Base Vegito. But if you combine a basic SS3, and 3 high SS3's i don't think Bra would stand a chance. Again this is a novel quote but she's stated to only be stronger then current Gohan when in SS2. So having 3 opponents near that level, plus a magic using basic SS3 is a recipe for her getting stomped, not the other way around. At least, thats my take if it ever happened.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Feb 7, 2019 3:07:53 GMT
First Bold: Cell (proven), Vegeta or Goku. I know we haven't see evidence of them reaching that ultimate SS3 tier, but i feel after 10 years of consistent training they'd be close. Admittedly more of a belief since we haven't seen either of them fight an opponent seriously, I mean, there's nothing to really argue here. Without any evidence the absolute worst they could be is Buu Saga. Slightly stronger perhaps, but still well within Buu Saga standards. Maybe they ARE at Gohan's levels and just haven't powered up fully, or something, but until proof of such power I can't really support that viewpoint in any way. A key thing to remember here is that they only closed the gap/surpassed him because he basically stopped training entirely. Even then Vegeta was at worst still weaker than Cell Games Gohan prior to going Majin (if you're in the camp that thinks he didn't even have SS2 prior to this) or--what I believe to be true based on Vegeta's reactions--that he surpassed Cell Games Gohan and had already become SS2, but didn't progress much further than that. Goku of course beat Gohan either way regardless, but again, he didn't train. In DBM Gohan now gets to slack off all he wants and still keep that same threshold of power, meaning it isn't quite the same as it was before. With Gohan no longer in decline, Goku and Vegeta must now face a very steep uphill battle just to even be equal with him or hell, even just Super Buu. That would require them basically getting up to SS3 Gotenks (DBZ) levels of power. Impossible? Hell no, especially in DB, but so far we've seen nothing indicating anything of the sort. If/when that happens, great! Until then it's all up in the air though. Not necessarily. "Top" SS3 is again hitting Gotenks levels of power, who was already strong prior to going Super Saiyan. If Vegeta's only been improving the form and not his overall level of power, we're just running into a Super Vegeta situation all over again where it's a decent boost but not the best that a transformation can put out. Vegeta's (even with his ace in the hole) already basically been confirmed to be weaker than adult SS3 Gotenks due to Goku picking on him about it and how Gotenks was stronger than both of them. That's not even counting SS3 Vegito who is the undisputed top SS3. Oh it's more than that. Not only does she surpass Gohan, according to Salagir she also surpasses the likes of Buutenks or Buuhan. I don't see some basic level SS3s (again, until there's more proof that anyone besides Cell has progressed as such) defeating that. On a side note, I'm getting a little tired of these novelization quotes. This isn't aimed at you VoidSlayer , more just how annoying it is overall. Just show it in the damn webcomic!
|
|
??????
|
Post by Solus on Feb 7, 2019 9:04:13 GMT
You can't really put adult Gotenks and Vegetto (or Bra for that matter) in normal SSJ tiers. Saying Vegetto is the highest SSJ3 tier is not really plausible, since he is a fusion. Also adult Gotenks was implied to be as strong as SSJ Vegetto now, if not SSJ2. That was kind of ambigous. In any case that is way above Gohan.
There is also a quote by Salagir that Vegetto had no need to go up to SSJ2 and 3 to fight Bra but did it, because he wanted to demonstrate his superiority - which his words prove.
But I do agree with you that Goku and Vegeta could not have reached Gohan's level following the rules, Salagir set. And of course does Bra (SSJ2) surpass Buuhan, if she is as strong as SSJ Vegetto.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Feb 7, 2019 20:58:42 GMT
You can't really put adult Gotenks and Vegetto (or Bra for that matter) in normal SSJ tiers. Saying Vegetto is the highest SSJ3 tier is not really plausible, since he is a fusion. I've seen DBZ Gotenks placed as high SS3 tier all the time despite being a fusion. Salagir himself puts DBZ SS3 Gotenks in his actual SS3 tier, so I think using Gotenks is a perfectly valid benchmark (yes I know you're talking about adult Gotenks) I will agree about Vegito being in his own tier though, simply because of how powerful he is. That said, it's undeniable that his SS3 is far above everyone else's simply by default, with only Adult Gotenks being anywhere resembling close. With all that in mind and using SS3 (DBZ) Gotenks as the benchmark for "high tier SS3" I don't think Vegeta would qualify. IMO the best way to have done that would be to just smack his ass down in SS1. Prove that you don't even NEED the other forms to lay the smackdown on you. It's not like Ginyu was unaware of the higher forms after all, not to mention that he SAW the fight against Broly and knew just how strong Vegito really was anyway. Well that's the point I'm really trying to make here. If we take one Mystic Gohan level character, two SS3 level characters and one powerful SS2 character, of course Vegito is going to stomp all over them. Bra would also do the same by extension. The only debate going on is just how strong Goku and Vegeta are, since Majin Cell and Uub seem pretty clearly defined.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Solus on Feb 8, 2019 21:52:09 GMT
You can't really put adult Gotenks and Vegetto (or Bra for that matter) in normal SSJ tiers. Saying Vegetto is the highest SSJ3 tier is not really plausible, since he is a fusion. I've seen DBZ Gotenks placed as high SS3 tier all the time despite being a fusion. Salagir himself puts DBZ SS3 Gotenks in his actual SS3 tier, so I think using Gotenks is a perfectly valid benchmark (yes I know you're talking about adult Gotenks) I will agree about Vegito being in his own tier though, simply because of how powerful he is. That said, it's undeniable that his SS3 is far above everyone else's simply by default, with only Adult Gotenks being anywhere resembling close. With all that in mind and using SS3 (DBZ) Gotenks as the benchmark for "high tier SS3" I don't think Vegeta would qualify. IMO the best way to have done that would be to just smack his ass down in SS1. Prove that you don't even NEED the other forms to lay the smackdown on you. It's not like Ginyu was unaware of the higher forms after all, not to mention that he SAW the fight against Broly and knew just how strong Vegito really was anyway. Well that's the point I'm really trying to make here. If we take one Mystic Gohan level character, two SS3 level characters and one powerful SS2 character, of course Vegito is going to stomp all over them. Bra would also do the same by extension. The only debate going on is just how strong Goku and Vegeta are, since Majin Cell and Uub seem pretty clearly defined. Maybe I missunderstood you on that first part. I totally agree with everything you say there.
About Ginyu vs. Vegetto: I don't think, Vegetto wanted to humiliate Ginyu. What I meant with showing superiority was to make Ginyu recognize how outclassed he actually is, so that he had no other choice but to change.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Feb 16, 2019 20:54:47 GMT
About Ginyu vs. Vegetto: I don't think, Vegetto wanted to humiliate Ginyu. What I meant with showing superiority was to make Ginyu recognize how outclassed he actually is, so that he had no other choice but to change. I think we're just entering "tomato, tomato" territory here. I think we both agree on Vegito's intentions, I just think it could've been done a different way to make it more humiliating. Either one works towards the end goal.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Cataclysm on Mar 15, 2019 9:15:00 GMT
I think Vegeta is going to beat Cell, even though he logically shouldn't be able to, given how powerful Cell has become throughout the tournament.
I know the novelization isn't canon, but surely Salagir doesn't allow it to outright contradict canon.
In the novel, the fact that both Vegeta and Goku are hiding something significant is far more explicit.
Vegeta dismisses Gohan choosing not participate, even though he knows how strong he is.
Goku concedes that Gohan was the strongest...at least he was, 20 years ago.
The narration after Vegeta defends Pan from Kakarotto revealing Goku's thoughts that him facing Vegeta is inevitable- that neither Buu, Uub or Cell could prevent them from meeting.
Cell and Vegeta's dialogue before the fight with Kakarotto- both being confident of victory in their upcoming match, but Cell having a small amount of doubt, Vegeta's new powers intriguing him nearly as much as Gohan's.
I think that if Goku and Vegeta aren't more powerful than Gohan now in terms of raw strength, they've developed techniques and have become so experienced that they can beat him now in spite of the power difference.
As I said, even though I personally think Vegeta will win his match with Cell, it isn't logical based on Salagir's canon and the feats shown by Cell and Vegeta thus far.
But regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, I think there has been too much foreshadowing for it not to be an incredibly close match.
|
|
??????
|
Post by drewsaga on Mar 18, 2019 4:12:59 GMT
I think Vegeta is going to beat Cell, even though he logically shouldn't be able to, given how powerful Cell has become throughout the tournament. I know the novelization isn't canon, but surely Salagir doesn't allow it to outright contradict canon. In the novel, the fact that both Vegeta and Goku are hiding something significant is far more explicit. Vegeta dismisses Gohan choosing not participate, even though he knows how strong he is. Goku concedes that Gohan was the strongest...at least he was, 20 years ago. The narration after Vegeta defends Pan from Kakarotto revealing Goku's thoughts that him facing Vegeta is inevitable- that neither Buu, Uub or Cell could prevent them from meeting. Cell and Vegeta's dialogue before the fight with Kakarotto- both being confident of victory in their upcoming match, but Cell having a small amount of doubt, Vegeta's new powers intriguing him nearly as much as Gohan's. I think that if Goku and Vegeta aren't more powerful than Gohan now in terms of raw strength, they've developed techniques and have become so experienced that they can beat him now in spite of the power difference. As I said, even though I personally think Vegeta will win his match with Cell, it isn't logical based on Salagir's canon and the feats shown by Cell and Vegeta thus far. But regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, I think there has been too much foreshadowing for it not to be an incredibly close match. Well, Vegeta does seem to have new techniques according to the novel. Not sure if that will be quite enough to pull a win against Cell. In the novel he created some strange variant of a fake moon that spun like a turbine at Kakarotto and he would have had a hole in his chest if he hadn't avoided it, meanwhile Kakarotto's kamehameha split into two before even hitting Vegeta while he was using that technique. That was enough to get Cell excited right there.
Let's not forget that though Cell has gotten really strong through Zenkais, his Majin boost is an additional power boost that he won't be keeping when the Babidi crisis is over. And yes, I consider Majin SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta during the Buu Saga which is why I am saying this, Spopovitch became more powerful after being Majin without transforming. Basically Cell will be stronger than he was before he became Majin (thanks to another Zenkai) but still weaker than he currently is once he is no longer Majin, which means he won't be competing with Mystic Gohan anymore in the power level department. That's still enough to pose a threat to Vegeta though but we don't really know what Vegeta has in store for us neither.
Still, just Cell getting this OPed made me consider the possibility that Cell might win the tournament. Way before I thought Vegeta could just brush him aside but not anymore.
It's definitely an exciting match but every Round 4 match seems exciting in some way. Especially Buu vs XXI.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Mar 18, 2019 4:29:32 GMT
I think Vegeta is going to beat Cell, even though he logically shouldn't be able to, given how powerful Cell has become throughout the tournament. I know the novelization isn't canon, but surely Salagir doesn't allow it to outright contradict canon. In the novel, the fact that both Vegeta and Goku are hiding something significant is far more explicit. Vegeta dismisses Gohan choosing not participate, even though he knows how strong he is. Goku concedes that Gohan was the strongest...at least he was, 20 years ago. The narration after Vegeta defends Pan from Kakarotto revealing Goku's thoughts that him facing Vegeta is inevitable- that neither Buu, Uub or Cell could prevent them from meeting. Cell and Vegeta's dialogue before the fight with Kakarotto- both being confident of victory in their upcoming match, but Cell having a small amount of doubt, Vegeta's new powers intriguing him nearly as much as Gohan's. I think that if Goku and Vegeta aren't more powerful than Gohan now in terms of raw strength, they've developed techniques and have become so experienced that they can beat him now in spite of the power difference. As I said, even though I personally think Vegeta will win his match with Cell, it isn't logical based on Salagir's canon and the feats shown by Cell and Vegeta thus far. But regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, I think there has been too much foreshadowing for it not to be an incredibly close match. Well, Vegeta does seem to have new techniques according to the novel. Not sure if that will be quite enough to pull a win against Cell. In the novel he created some strange variant of a fake moon that spun like a turbine at Kakarotto and he would have had a hole in his chest if he hadn't avoided it, meanwhile Kakarotto's kamehameha split into two before even hitting Vegeta while he was using that technique. That was enough to get Cell excited right there.
Let's not forget that though Cell has gotten really strong through Zenkais, his Majin boost is an additional power boost that he won't be keeping when the Babidi crisis is over. And yes, I consider Majin SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta during the Buu Saga which is why I am saying this, Spopovitch became more powerful after being Majin without transforming. Basically Cell will be stronger than he was before he became Majin (thanks to another Zenkai) but still weaker than he currently is once he is no longer Majin, which means he won't be competing with Mystic Gohan anymore in the power level department. That's still enough to pose a threat to Vegeta though but we don't really know what Vegeta has in store for us neither.
Still, just Cell getting this OPed made me consider the possibility that Cell might win the tournament. Way before I thought Vegeta could just brush him aside but not anymore.
It's definitely an exciting match but every Round 4 match seems exciting in some way. Especially Buu vs XXI.
How do you know he won't keep it? For cool factor and storytelling purposes I think everyone will be keeping the boost. Specially the ones who got the most out of it, such as Freeza and Kakarotto. Majin Factor affects Cell (and A17, KingPiccolo, etc) less because he has no additional transformations to unlock. He probably got more of the slap-in-the-wrist Zenkai Nedwook gave him than whatever Babidi did. While I do think it contributed, it certainly wasn't as much as it did to Freeza or Kakarotto. By the way, while what you say about Goku SSJ2 and Vegeta is true, Salagir actually considers Vegeta got SSJ2 only through Majin, given he did not use it vs. LSSJ Broly second coming while Gohan used it and failed to do anything to Broly. Since he considers Vegeta only unlocked SSJ2 thanks to Babidi, and the Kid Buu happened canonically in U18, then it means Vegeta kept the powerup even after being revived.
|
|
??????
|
Post by drewsaga on Mar 18, 2019 17:07:43 GMT
Well, Vegeta does seem to have new techniques according to the novel. Not sure if that will be quite enough to pull a win against Cell. In the novel he created some strange variant of a fake moon that spun like a turbine at Kakarotto and he would have had a hole in his chest if he hadn't avoided it, meanwhile Kakarotto's kamehameha split into two before even hitting Vegeta while he was using that technique. That was enough to get Cell excited right there.
Let's not forget that though Cell has gotten really strong through Zenkais, his Majin boost is an additional power boost that he won't be keeping when the Babidi crisis is over. And yes, I consider Majin SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta during the Buu Saga which is why I am saying this, Spopovitch became more powerful after being Majin without transforming. Basically Cell will be stronger than he was before he became Majin (thanks to another Zenkai) but still weaker than he currently is once he is no longer Majin, which means he won't be competing with Mystic Gohan anymore in the power level department. That's still enough to pose a threat to Vegeta though but we don't really know what Vegeta has in store for us neither.
Still, just Cell getting this OPed made me consider the possibility that Cell might win the tournament. Way before I thought Vegeta could just brush him aside but not anymore.
It's definitely an exciting match but every Round 4 match seems exciting in some way. Especially Buu vs XXI.
How do you know he won't keep it? For cool factor and storytelling purposes I think everyone will be keeping the boost. Specially the ones who got the most out of it, such as Freeza and Kakarotto. Majin Factor affects Cell (and A17, KingPiccolo, etc) less because he has no additional transformations to unlock. He probably got more of the slap-in-the-wrist Zenkai Nedwook gave him than whatever Babidi did. While I do think it contributed, it certainly wasn't as much as it did to Freeza or Kakarotto. By the way, while what you say about Goku SSJ2 and Vegeta is true, Salagir actually considers Vegeta got SSJ2 only through Majin, given he did not use it vs. LSSJ Broly second coming while Gohan used it and failed to do anything to Broly. Since he considers Vegeta only unlocked SSJ2 thanks to Babidi, and the Kid Buu happened canonically in U18, then it means Vegeta kept the powerup even after being revived. Spopovitch doesn't have any transformations yet he got a substantial power boost. He went from being Weaker than Hercule to stronger than Videl and beating her to a pulp. Unless Spopovitch trained to surpass Mr Satan and reach that level without being Majin but Vegeta himself let himself become Majin because of Spopovitch's unnatural power increase.
We haven't really seen the burden of proof but it's safe to say that the Majin boost does increase the power of base form. In fact, it might be a contributing factor to how Kakarotto even gained SSJ2, it pushed his abilities as SSJ1 and base form just enough to push him to the next level, maybe the same is with Frieza (or not since it's a different transformation). Maybe Vegeta's base power was pushed high enough to unlock SSJ2 when he became Majin.
Obviously the transformations will be kept as well as Cell's Zenkai, never said otherwise, I am just saying that the Majinized characters base form itself was stronger than they were when they were non-Majin, by how much we don't know, maybe Cell's boost was small or huge. I am actually unsure on what factor is played.
I could be wrong or Salagir decides that the majin power up is either retained completely or that the majin powerup never boosted the base form to begin with. In that case then Majin 17 = 17 or Majin Spopovitch = Spopovitch or Majin 5th Form Frieza = 5th Form Frieza > 100% 4th Form Frieza.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Apr 10, 2019 7:33:13 GMT
My new theory is that Cell's gains weren't as much as we thought and U16 Gohan was still holding back during their battle. As powerful as Cell is I wouldn't be that surprised as the closer he gets to realizing his full potential the less potent his zenkai get. It makes sense for DBM. If Cell gets closer to his full potential the less latent power he has to have for zenkai. Let's say Cell's max potential is more or less about the same as Gohan's, so Cell's limit is around Gohan's limit and not say something as wild as SS1 Vegetto's. Cell was left unsatisfied by the zenkai he got from his match with Hirudegan. I believe had Cell's full potential was way higher than Gohan's and close to SS1 Vegetto's level that his zenkai would have easily pushed him from SS3 levels to something like Gotenks Buu form or Gohan Buu form's level. That would be similar to how Cell's original zenkai took him from much weaker than SS2 Gohan to equal to or slightly stronger than him. That was a huge boost. Cell's boost doesn't seem to make him confident that it is enough to win the tournament still. If he is estimating that U18 Goku, U18 Vegeta, U16 Bra, U7 Gast, and U4 Buu are still as strong or stronger (as in U4 Buu's case much stronger) than U16/U18 Gohan than it is safe to say Cell didn't feel comfortable he could defeat opponents at that level.
The Majin boost happens and Cell is more confident than ever. He is at least sure he can much or exceed Gohan's level of power now. We saw Cell and U16 Gohan were fighting about evenly. Now we assumed they were both fighting all out, but considering U16 Gohan's outburst I'm willing to wager U16 Gohan was being cautious and was holding back his full power to try to feel out how strong Cell was knowing Cell's competitive nature would never allow for Cell to kill someone fast. This way Gohan can feel out if he needs a different strategy if Cell's full power is as great or greater than his. Let's say he was using 70-80% of his power, which Cell assumed was Gohan's full power. When U19 did their thing and Cell received another zenkai it bolstered his power above that 70-80% range Gohan was using before. So Cell gets full of himself and believes he can handle both Gohans.
Cell assuming he is stronger decides to enrage Gohan by killing his loved ones so Gohan stays focused on their fated rematch. That is when Gohan loses composure and forgets all about caution and strategy and powers up to full strength (rather than getting a rage boost). Cell unaware Gohan was still holding back that much of his power was surprised by Gohan's full power and perhaps still has less than Gohan's. Gohan's attack was enough to obliterate Cell's whole body/kill him. Now I'm not claiming Cell is dead dead yet, just that the attack was enough to nearly kill Cell and overwhelm him to such a degree that his ki signature is even gone right now.
If I'm right this means Cell's last two zenkai and the Majin boost still weren't enough make him Ultimate Gohan's equal like he assumed. Now if Cell;s full potential can match SS1 Vegetto he would probably have been much stronger than Ultimate Gohan after his first zenkai during the tournament before he even got Majin power boost. Cell's natural limit at least in DBM is probably around Gohan's. If that is the case the two zenkai and Majin boost weren't nearly as high as they seemed, so even if Cell kept them he may not necessarily be enough to handle U18 Vegeta's max power, which could still allow for U18 Vegeta's full potential to be less than Gohan's. We keep the Vegeta and Goku having less potential than their kids or at least Gohan intact while still allowing Vegeta and Cell match to not be ridiculously one sided in Cell's favor. Now I'm not saying this is what happened, but my thoughts on how things might be going.
|
|
??????
|
Post by drewsaga on Apr 16, 2019 20:00:26 GMT
My new theory is that Cell's gains weren't as much as we thought and U16 Gohan was still holding back during their battle. As powerful as Cell is I wouldn't be that surprised as the closer he gets to realizing his full potential the less potent his zenkai get. It makes sense for DBM. If Cell gets closer to his full potential the less latent power he has to have for zenkai. Let's say Cell's max potential is more or less about the same as Gohan's, so Cell's limit is around Gohan's limit and not say something as wild as SS1 Vegetto's. Cell was left unsatisfied by the zenkai he got from his match with Hirudegan. I believe had Cell's full potential was way higher than Gohan's and close to SS1 Vegetto's level that his zenkai would have easily pushed him from SS3 levels to something like Gotenks Buu form or Gohan Buu form's level. That would be similar to how Cell's original zenkai took him from much weaker than SS2 Gohan to equal to or slightly stronger than him. That was a huge boost. Cell's boost doesn't seem to make him confident that it is enough to win the tournament still. If he is estimating that U18 Goku, U18 Vegeta, U16 Bra, U7 Gast, and U4 Buu are still as strong or stronger (as in U4 Buu's case much stronger) than U16/U18 Gohan than it is safe to say Cell didn't feel comfortable he could defeat opponents at that level.
The Majin boost happens and Cell is more confident than ever. He is at least sure he can much or exceed Gohan's level of power now. We saw Cell and U16 Gohan were fighting about evenly. Now we assumed they were both fighting all out, but considering U16 Gohan's outburst I'm willing to wager U16 Gohan was being cautious and was holding back his full power to try to feel out how strong Cell was knowing Cell's competitive nature would never allow for Cell to kill someone fast. This way Gohan can feel out if he needs a different strategy if Cell's full power is as great or greater than his. Let's say he was using 70-80% of his power, which Cell assumed was Gohan's full power. When U19 did their thing and Cell received another zenkai it bolstered his power above that 70-80% range Gohan was using before. So Cell gets full of himself and believes he can handle both Gohans.
Cell assuming he is stronger decides to enrage Gohan by killing his loved ones so Gohan stays focused on their fated rematch. That is when Gohan loses composure and forgets all about caution and strategy and powers up to full strength (rather than getting a rage boost). Cell unaware Gohan was still holding back that much of his power was surprised by Gohan's full power and perhaps still has less than Gohan's. Gohan's attack was enough to obliterate Cell's whole body/kill him. Now I'm not claiming Cell is dead dead yet, just that the attack was enough to nearly kill Cell and overwhelm him to such a degree that his ki signature is even gone right now.
If I'm right this means Cell's last two zenkai and the Majin boost still weren't enough make him Ultimate Gohan's equal like he assumed. Now if Cell;s full potential can match SS1 Vegetto he would probably have been much stronger than Ultimate Gohan after his first zenkai during the tournament before he even got Majin power boost. Cell's natural limit at least in DBM is probably around Gohan's. If that is the case the two zenkai and Majin boost weren't nearly as high as they seemed, so even if Cell kept them he may not necessarily be enough to handle U18 Vegeta's max power, which could still allow for U18 Vegeta's full potential to be less than Gohan's. We keep the Vegeta and Goku having less potential than their kids or at least Gohan intact while still allowing Vegeta and Cell match to not be ridiculously one sided in Cell's favor. Now I'm not saying this is what happened, but my thoughts on how things might be going.
Well, after seeing Gohan pulverize Cell like that with his blast it gives me hope that U18 Vegeta stands a chance against Cell, especially when (if) Cell no longer has that Majin boost that even allows him to keep up with Gohan. If the novel is any indication, Vegeta came up with a crazy move that involves "compiling his own energy with the atmosphere" or something along that line and if he blasted a much larger version of the attack against Cell with his "new power" (if it means anything), then Cell is going to get devastated and he could lose as he would either die or take longer than 30 seconds to regenerate.
That depends if Cell is truly dead or not at the moment. I still have a bad feeling about that because of what he might have done to the chick Heliote. He may still be alive and may come back soon and get yet another Zenkai.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Solus on Apr 17, 2019 16:56:22 GMT
About all that Zenkai talk: In DBZ it was never stated how zenkais actually work. There is no rule that can be applied of when a zenkai happens and when not. The first mentioned zenkai was Vegeta's after he was beaten on earth. His power increased from 18k to 22k, which is only a measly 20 %. This is also the only zenkai which can be written in exact numbers. Afterwards everything went crazy on namek and everyone got a whole lot of zenkais for every beating they received. Even Gohan was mentioned to have become stronger via beating and healing.
The last recorded zenkai in DBZ was, however, the greatest. Remember that it lifted Cell not from FPSJ but from far below to SSJ2. Before he got his zenkai, he returned to Semi-perfect state which was far weaker than Super Vegeta pre Cell Games. I have no idea of any multiplyers at that point but it is surely more than 10 times the original level. So a zenkai can reach from +20% to at least +1000%. And keep in mind that the percentage does not decrease the higher the starting power level is. So Salagir can make Cell as strong as he wants to with every received zenkai.
After that, no one ever received a zenkai again (although I'm not sure about Gohan after been beaten by Fat Buu). Vegeta and Goku might have fought to their limits in their fight and still none of them got stronger afterwards. Also Kid Trunks and Goten got humiliated by Buu and also got no zenkai. DBS delivered an explanation why none of the fighters got a zenkai, namely that they've reached their limits (which is later proven wrong, as they continue to grow stronger). It also isn't consistent for Zamasu since he changed his body with Goku who also should have reached his limit and thus should also not be able to receive a zenkai. And yet he did - several times.
But going by that logic it might be true, that Cell's zenkais are not as huge as the first one for him. If he only increases like 20 % everytime he doesn't get that much stronger over all.
|
|
??????
|
Post by drewsaga on Feb 24, 2023 19:18:08 GMT
I think this whole "Cell going to win the tournament topic" is pretty dated given Cell's defeat.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Mar 19, 2023 19:11:18 GMT
I think this whole "Cell going to win the tournament topic" is pretty dated given Cell's defeat. True, but for a minute there given how many power ups and crazy additions added to Cell it looked like he might have been a possible winner.
|
|
??????
|
Post by drewsaga on Apr 20, 2023 21:34:42 GMT
I think this whole "Cell going to win the tournament topic" is pretty dated given Cell's defeat. True, but for a minute there given how many power ups and crazy additions added to Cell it looked like he might have been a possible winner. I think so too, I kind of joked about Cell winning the tournament (defeating XXI) and maybe that could have happened (if XXI didn't have a counterplay for Cell).
Cell lost purely to his own hubris, his own arrogance.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Jun 9, 2023 20:00:33 GMT
True, but for a minute there given how many power ups and crazy additions added to Cell it looked like he might have been a possible winner. I think so too, I kind of joked about Cell winning the tournament (defeating XXI) and maybe that could have happened (if XXI didn't have a counterplay for Cell).
Cell lost purely to his own hubris, his own arrogance.
In hindsight, I wish Cell hadn't gotten so many zenkai boost to try to match U16 Bra. If they kept Cell a SS3 level opponent, it would have made the fight with Vegeta better. I wish U6 girls had stuck around and were used to weaken U16 Bra. Bra is much stronger than Bojack. I could buy if U6 technique could bring down someone as powerful as SS2 Bra down closer to Ultimate Gohan's level, which still keeps Bra way stronger than everyone else and keeps the story we got mostly intact. This would have allowed Cell to stay closer to Goku and Vegeta's level.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Jason9000 on Jun 10, 2023 15:45:27 GMT
I think so too, I kind of joked about Cell winning the tournament (defeating XXI) and maybe that could have happened (if XXI didn't have a counterplay for Cell).
Cell lost purely to his own hubris, his own arrogance.
In hindsight, I wish Cell hadn't gotten so many zenkai boost to try to match U16 Bra. If they kept Cell a SS3 level opponent, it would have made the fight with Vegeta better. I wish U6 girls had stuck around and were used to weaken U16 Bra. Bra is much stronger than Bojack. I could buy if U6 technique could bring down someone as powerful as SS2 Bra down closer to Ultimate Gohan's level, which still keeps Bra way stronger than everyone else and keeps the story we got mostly intact. This would have allowed Cell to stay closer to Goku and Vegeta's level. I agree, it would have been interesting if the U6 girls just had to be around people for a certain time and then lower their power. Like the three days or so the tournament would go on, they could lower Gohan down to Gotenks level level from the Buu saga and if they would have to be around him longer to lower it more. Cell should have stayed weaker than both Gohans. Despite his Zenkais and Babidi’s boost it would show that his ‘cheating’ wouldn’t work, similar to what happened in canon with his defeat.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Jul 11, 2023 21:42:34 GMT
In hindsight, I wish Cell hadn't gotten so many zenkai boost to try to match U16 Bra. If they kept Cell a SS3 level opponent, it would have made the fight with Vegeta better. I wish U6 girls had stuck around and were used to weaken U16 Bra. Bra is much stronger than Bojack. I could buy if U6 technique could bring down someone as powerful as SS2 Bra down closer to Ultimate Gohan's level, which still keeps Bra way stronger than everyone else and keeps the story we got mostly intact. This would have allowed Cell to stay closer to Goku and Vegeta's level. I agree, it would have been interesting if the U6 girls just had to be around people for a certain time and then lower their power. Like the three days or so the tournament would go on, they could lower Gohan down to Gotenks level level from the Buu saga and if they would have to be around him longer to lower it more. Cell should have stayed weaker than both Gohans. Despite his Zenkais and Babidi’s boost it would show that his ‘cheating’ wouldn’t work, similar to what happened in canon with his defeat. This is what I'm thinking. The girls had been around a lot of the contestants for several days. They could have totally been used weaken a lot of the Majin slaves to help out other people, Bra being the biggest one. I am probably in the minority here, but after we got the U6 Special it really turned me around on these characters and made me regret they weren't used more.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Jason9000 on Jul 12, 2023 18:59:37 GMT
I agree, it would have been interesting if the U6 girls just had to be around people for a certain time and then lower their power. Like the three days or so the tournament would go on, they could lower Gohan down to Gotenks level level from the Buu saga and if they would have to be around him longer to lower it more. Cell should have stayed weaker than both Gohans. Despite his Zenkais and Babidi’s boost it would show that his ‘cheating’ wouldn’t work, similar to what happened in canon with his defeat. This is what I'm thinking. The girls had been around a lot of the contestants for several days. They could have totally been used weaken a lot of the Majin slaves to help out other people, Bra being the biggest one. I am probably in the minority here, but after we got the U6 Special it really turned me around on these characters and made me regret they weren't used more. I’m in the same camp. After the U6 special it would have been better to have the girls stay. I know that DBM has never been a long planned comic. But this really shows the discrepancy between early DBM and modern DBM as of July 2023. Had Salagir thought of this back then, he probably would have kept them around. The Majin rebellion would have actually shown that teamwork can overcome the odds. But it followed more of Super where all that matters is pure power. Son Bra won and only lost because U18 Bra was lucky and didn’t get herself killed in the chaos.
|
|