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Post by Andres on Jan 22, 2019 15:23:09 GMT
I kinda see Raichi with some contempt. He was useful as a plot device, and he would have to win against Vegeta if the two fought for the sake of plot and character development, but didn't the Tuffles enslave the Saiyans and thought themselves above the "monkeys"? If so, his actions were simply out of pride, arrogance and vengeance rather than justice. Besides, I lack sympathy for summoners who are completely reliant on their summons to do any damage at all. The thing is, we'll never know. We have conflicting reports, but one of those opinions holds more truth because it's not hearsay and has at least one objective observer.
The Tuffles are not strictly manga-canon, so there's nothing much to dwell into, but we have three different people talking about the Tuffles: One of them is Raichi himself in the Hatchiyak OVA. We also have Vegeta in that very same OVA and we ultimately have King Kai.
Raichi said theTuffles welcomed the Saiyans with open arms when they arrived in their fucked-up spaceships and treated them like equals but Vegeta said there were treated poorly, like second class citizens (did he ever mention slavery?). Raichi was present, Vegeta was not. All Vegeta has are his father's stories (and other Saiyans'), and of course they'd say OH NOEEES DEY WERE MEEEEAN SO WE KILL'EM.
At least, Raichi was there when the Saiyans attacked, and since we was already an old man, I guess we could say he knew how the dynamics between the two races were. But either a Tuffle or a Saiyan would be naturally biased. They can't be truly objetive, even if one of them right.
On the other hand, King Kai has no reason to lie as he's not part of the conflict. He observed them and deemed the Tuffles as pacific and the Saiyans as violent and somewhat vicious and immoral. That's what he told Goku. He has no reason to lie to him, specially knowing Goku is a Saiyan himself (albeit a special one, that is).
So, who would I trust in this matter? Well, both King Kai and Raichi agreed with each other, and Vegeta wasn't even there. So I guess King Vegeta told his son the stories about how he FREED THE SAIYANS FROM THEIR MISTREATMENT instead of saying WELL, THEY KINDA HAD NICE THINGS AND WE WANTED THEM, SO WE TOOK EM.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 21:05:04 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. Obviously Freeza and his family are the most apparent ones to come in mind. It has become a recurring joke at this point, but the others have as well. Bojack got humiliated by Cell and killed off as helplessly as the enemies and allies he has killed over the centuries. Demon King Piccolo got called out on how Kami has inserted goodness in him and it is slowly and gradually influencing him while getting defeated easily by Gast. Both cyborgs were made sport of by people they either killed in their universe easily or crushed by the man they were made to kill. Babidi got both his fighters beaten and will likely suffer some more crow after his revolt ends. U13 Vegeta was slaughtered by the weak Tuffle he saw benath him despite achieving SS3 power he thought made him equal or greater than the other Saiyans at the tournaments after replacing Freeza as the new emperor of the universe. Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. I could see something like that happening if Bra manages to defeat XXI. I assume he's going to make it to the finals from his side of the tournament bracket. What if Cell reforms by the end of the tournament? He might come to the realization that there's more to life than following his programming and striving to become the most powerful, perfect being. The irredeemable villains like the Frost Demons, Babidi, and Bojack were free to choose their own actions and the route they wanted to take in life. Cell is similar to King Piccolo, Buu, and the cyborgs who didn't have much of a choice at first. King Piccolo and Buu were pure evil until they absorbed someone who lead to a change in their personalities. The cyborgs were designed to kill Goku but since he was already dead in the future timeline that might've been why they felt they lost their purpose and terrorized the Earth.
Cell was born and immediately went back in time to complete his mission of absorbing the cyborgs and kill Goku. He then spent the next 27 years aimlessly wandering the universe looking for a challenge. In the tournament, he gets to see his old rival again and how much he has changed since they last met. He grew up, surpassed Cell, and has a family while Cell is still obsessing over the same thing. After seeing Gohan's power when Pan was killed, Cell realized Gohan was still stronger than him. Cell seemed to be more interested in Gohan than any of the other contestants because he offered to kill Bojack if Gohan was willing to have a rematch with him. Gohan refused which may have caused Cell to realize that Gohan either wasn't that interested in him or didn't consider him worth fighting. Cell might've allowed Babidi to possess him in order to become strong enough to challenge his rival like Vegeta did in the Buu saga. If Cell loses to someone during the Majin revolt, that might lead to him getting some development. I don't think he'll be a good guy but more like Vegeta during most of the Cell saga as in he's still an asshole but loses some of his more evil tendencies. He might even be willing to work with the heroes against the big bad or offer his wishes if Gohan is willing to have a friendly uninterrupted rematch. This is pretty unlikely and Cell might be incapable of changing his ways but it's something I could possible happening if Cell is meant to progress further in the tournament.
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 22, 2019 22:53:02 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. Obviously Freeza and his family are the most apparent ones to come in mind. It has become a recurring joke at this point, but the others have as well. Bojack got humiliated by Cell and killed off as helplessly as the enemies and allies he has killed over the centuries. Demon King Piccolo got called out on how Kami has inserted goodness in him and it is slowly and gradually influencing him while getting defeated easily by Gast. Both cyborgs were made sport of by people they either killed in their universe easily or crushed by the man they were made to kill. Babidi got both his fighters beaten and will likely suffer some more crow after his revolt ends. U13 Vegeta was slaughtered by the weak Tuffle he saw benath him despite achieving SS3 power he thought made him equal or greater than the other Saiyans at the tournaments after replacing Freeza as the new emperor of the universe. Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. I could see something like that happening if Bra manages to defeat XXI. I assume he's going to make it to the finals from his side of the tournament bracket. What if Cell reforms by the end of the tournament? He might come to the realization that there's more to life than following his programming and striving to become the most powerful, perfect being. The irredeemable villains like the Frost Demons, Babidi, and Bojack were free to choose their own actions and the route they wanted to take in life. Cell is similar to King Piccolo, Buu, and the cyborgs who didn't have much of a choice at first. King Piccolo and Buu were pure evil until they absorbed someone who lead to a change in their personalities. The cyborgs were designed to kill Goku but since he was already dead in the future timeline that might've been why they felt they lost their purpose and terrorized the Earth.
Cell was born and immediately went back in time to complete his mission of absorbing the cyborgs and kill Goku. He then spent the next 27 years aimlessly wandering the universe looking for a challenge. In the tournament, he gets to see his old rival again and how much he has changed since they last met. He grew up, surpassed Cell, and has a family while Cell is still obsessing over the same thing. After seeing Gohan's power when Pan was killed, Cell realized Gohan was still stronger than him. Cell seemed to be more interested in Gohan than any of the other contestants because he offered to kill Bojack if Gohan was willing to have a rematch with him. Gohan refused which may have caused Cell to realize that Gohan either wasn't that interested in him or didn't consider him worth fighting. Cell might've allowed Babidi to possess him in order to become strong enough to challenge his rival like Vegeta did in the Buu saga. If Cell loses to someone during the Majin revolt, that might lead to him getting some development. I don't think he'll be a good guy but more like Vegeta during most of the Cell saga as in he's still an asshole but loses some of his more evil tendencies. He might even be willing to work with the heroes against the big bad or offer his wishes if Gohan is willing to have a friendly uninterrupted rematch. This is pretty unlikely and Cell might be incapable of changing his ways but it's something I could possible happening if Cell is meant to progress further in the tournament.
Cell has been on his dark path of destruction for a long time, much like #17 & #18. Reforming him won't be easy nor will even be talking to him. The Cell Jr that U9 Videl squashed might have a better chance of redemption than Cell and he might if Bardock's flashbacks are any indication.
Still, it would be great to see how Cell would have to deal with these complications in his simple life of trying to be the most perfect and most powerful. He has children, like Cell Jrs, even when he doesn't need them, in fact, he deemed one of them to be "too weak" and killed him once but at the same time left him behind to deal with "weaker" fighters and he probably outlasted the Cell Jrs that got crushed by Gohan.
interesting will be his interaction between him and Vegeta, someone who has already found some level of inner peace.
I can imagine Vegeta telling Cell to go home and be a family man if he wins.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 23, 2019 3:29:46 GMT
I kinda see Raichi with some contempt. He was useful as a plot device, and he would have to win against Vegeta if the two fought for the sake of plot and character development, but didn't the Tuffles enslave the Saiyans and thought themselves above the "monkeys"? If so, his actions were simply out of pride, arrogance and vengeance rather than justice. Besides, I lack sympathy for summoners who are completely reliant on their summons to do any damage at all. It was more like the other way around. The Saiyans started the war and fought it to exterminate the Tuffles for the simple fact of them being strong enough to do it. Given how Vegeta acted before he turned good if anything the Saiyans are likely to look down on the Tuffles for being weaker than them the same way Vegeta does to Krillin and the others for being human and as hax as the Saiyans. Raichi went off the deep end and became twisted with vengeance, but the Saiyans are hardly the oppressed people raising above their oppressors. Hell, they are likely not even both sides have a point. The Saiyans are just assholes who believe strength is above all else and kill and steal because they are strong enough to. If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. Obviously Freeza and his family are the most apparent ones to come in mind. It has become a recurring joke at this point, but the others have as well. Bojack got humiliated by Cell and killed off as helplessly as the enemies and allies he has killed over the centuries. Demon King Piccolo got called out on how Kami has inserted goodness in him and it is slowly and gradually influencing him while getting defeated easily by Gast. Both cyborgs were made sport of by people they either killed in their universe easily or crushed by the man they were made to kill. Babidi got both his fighters beaten and will likely suffer some more crow after his revolt ends. U13 Vegeta was slaughtered by the weak Tuffle he saw benath him despite achieving SS3 power he thought made him equal or greater than the other Saiyans at the tournaments after replacing Freeza as the new emperor of the universe. Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. To be fair, Vegeta deserved that humiliation for the shit he was doing the entirety of the Android and Cell Saga. He freaking let's Cell become perfect, not that he gives a shit about the Earth but even then that was a stupid move if he gave a crap about himself. You had Kami making a sacrifice to merge with Piccolo, all the trouble of him trying to hunt the crafty Cell down and then fight #17 and Tien busting his balls to keep Cell away from #18 just for Vegeta to throw all the hard effort away (Krillin has fault too but Vegeta had the power to end it).
Anyways I don't think Cell vs Vegeta is so one-sided as the other fights you mentioned. I wonder of Cell's humiliation has any ties with the poor Cell Jr that got killed by U9 Videl.
I think you misread my post. Nowhere did I say that Vegeta didn't deserve his humiliating defeat. What I said was Cell losing to Vegeta can be considered karmatic if he loses to Vegeta because it would remind Cell of when Vegeta humiliated him back when Cell was only Semi-Perfect. If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. Obviously Freeza and his family are the most apparent ones to come in mind. It has become a recurring joke at this point, but the others have as well. Bojack got humiliated by Cell and killed off as helplessly as the enemies and allies he has killed over the centuries. Demon King Piccolo got called out on how Kami has inserted goodness in him and it is slowly and gradually influencing him while getting defeated easily by Gast. Both cyborgs were made sport of by people they either killed in their universe easily or crushed by the man they were made to kill. Babidi got both his fighters beaten and will likely suffer some more crow after his revolt ends. U13 Vegeta was slaughtered by the weak Tuffle he saw benath him despite achieving SS3 power he thought made him equal or greater than the other Saiyans at the tournaments after replacing Freeza as the new emperor of the universe. Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. I could see something like that happening if Bra manages to defeat XXI. I assume he's going to make it to the finals from his side of the tournament bracket. What if Cell reforms by the end of the tournament? He might come to the realization that there's more to life than following his programming and striving to become the most powerful, perfect being. The irredeemable villains like the Frost Demons, Babidi, and Bojack were free to choose their own actions and the route they wanted to take in life. Cell is similar to King Piccolo, Buu, and the cyborgs who didn't have much of a choice at first. King Piccolo and Buu were pure evil until they absorbed someone who lead to a change in their personalities. The cyborgs were designed to kill Goku but since he was already dead in the future timeline that might've been why they felt they lost their purpose and terrorized the Earth.
Cell was born and immediately went back in time to complete his mission of absorbing the cyborgs and kill Goku. He then spent the next 27 years aimlessly wandering the universe looking for a challenge. In the tournament, he gets to see his old rival again and how much he has changed since they last met. He grew up, surpassed Cell, and has a family while Cell is still obsessing over the same thing. After seeing Gohan's power when Pan was killed, Cell realized Gohan was still stronger than him. Cell seemed to be more interested in Gohan than any of the other contestants because he offered to kill Bojack if Gohan was willing to have a rematch with him. Gohan refused which may have caused Cell to realize that Gohan either wasn't that interested in him or didn't consider him worth fighting. Cell might've allowed Babidi to possess him in order to become strong enough to challenge his rival like Vegeta did in the Buu saga. If Cell loses to someone during the Majin revolt, that might lead to him getting some development. I don't think he'll be a good guy but more like Vegeta during most of the Cell saga as in he's still an asshole but loses some of his more evil tendencies. He might even be willing to work with the heroes against the big bad or offer his wishes if Gohan is willing to have a friendly uninterrupted rematch. This is pretty unlikely and Cell might be incapable of changing his ways but it's something I could possible happening if Cell is meant to progress further in the tournament.
It would be an intriguing idea, but like you said I cannot really see it happening for Cell. In many ways he is a foil for Zen Buu. Buu grew out of his destroying everything for fun phase, while Cell still delights in killing and terrorizing people. Buu has traveled the universe actually learning and growing while Cell has just been killing civilizations off and hasn't bothered learning anything from them at all. Cell to me is like U13 Vegeta. He is a villain that got everything he wanted initially so nothing has prompted him to change or see something more. I don't think Vegeta would have ever changed without Goku constantly getting ahead of him because it forced Vegeta to focus on his pursuit for more strengthen, which lead him to abandon things like universal conquest and immortality. It eventually lead him to staying in one place long enough and make roots there that slowly changed him for the better. It is no coincidence that U13 Vegeta that got everything he wanted has mostly stayed the same and hasn't learned anything at all. Even the novel which hints there is more to U13 Vegeta only has him see it after seeing U18 Vegeta's life and the love U12 and U18 Trunks has for him.
Cell isn't exactly the same as Vegeta he has enough similarities that Cell not undergoing or even seeing fault in how he does thing or a desire for change is based on him getting what he wants. There isn't even a hint of Cell getting bored with killing people, just that he wishes for better fights. He still finds sadistic joy in killing or terrorizing weaker beings for the sake of it. He is still the kid with the magnifying glass who burns ants for fun even though he is a grown man. He hasn't matured in any way and nothing in this tournament has prompted it.
U16 Bra for all the hate she gets as shown signs of being better than she appears to be and has a lot of other things going on besides power. Cell starting to undergo a change after the tournament is possible, but he really need something big to show him there is more he can do or have. Right now even the Juniors are expendable to him and he hasn't even bothered to train them in 27 years (the original ones he brought with him were still SS1 level despite us seeing Cell create more when he won the Cell Games in U17).
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 23, 2019 3:51:12 GMT
Raichi also does not see himself as a hero, a savior, a bane of righteousness or anything like that. He's aware he's vengeful and that his methods are ethically questionable and fucked up. It's usually the people in his universe who (wrongly) consider him to be so, since the Saiyan rule was so ruthless and Raichi was the one to end it, however violent it was. Not only that but he did not even have intentions to rule anyway. Of course he'd be seen in a positive light by most inhabitants of the universe. He is not exactly Zamasu. Since he was not a public person, and most of his nature/past/methods used to destroy the saiyan were likely not widely known. So he had these factors: -Belonged to a race that was destroyed by the saiyans -Somehow managed to be a survivor -And also managed to strike back effectively, destroying them forever
Of course the average dude in the universe hiding from saiyans, or under their yoke/slavery would feel moved and identified by Raichi's circumstantial facts. It's not non-sensical that they assume he's some sort of hero. Even if they are kinda wrong about his true nature, the logic for thinking the way they do is not flawed at all.
What he did was not worse than Gast going to seek Coola and Cold preemptively. He only offed the Saiyans after they had done considerable damage. What the Kaioshins did to Kid Broly was certainly worse than anything Raichi did.
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Post by Solus on Jan 23, 2019 20:26:45 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. [...] Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. Well, in a context where Cell keeps all the power-ups he gained through the revolt, Vegeta has no chance. Salagir classified Buutenks as SSJ4-Tier. How would Vegeta climb up to that level? Whether or not Super Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed Cell if the latter didn't dodge is still debatable in my opinion. I think his shocked reaction was only for the show and to give Vegeta hope - just to see him suffer even more when Cell revealed his regeneration to him. And this situation would never come back in the tournament setting. Why would Cell let himself be hit by an attack deliberately? So no matter how strong Vegeta got, if he didn't surpass Gohan (which he is not supposed to do) he has no chance against post-revolt-Cell. No trickery could make up for the difference in power. And I don't see why Cell should lose the power-up from Majinization when Vegeta didn't even after he died. There is no indication that he was weaker than Majin Vegeta when he came back.
Now in case, Cell does lose both the majin power-up and the second Zenkai (because Mary-Sue turns back time for example or via Dragonballs in a wish like "make everything as it was before the revolt happened") then I'd still put Cell in a solid SSJ3 tier which would make the fight somewhat even (assuming Vegeta really has something in his sleeve). But that would only be powerlevel wise. Cell still has the better abilities. And if not for his regeneration he still has a lot of other skills that make him a dangerous opponent (IT, Solar Flare, Eye-Beams, Shield etc.).
And then there is still a possibility inbetween: Cell loses the majin power-up but not the second Zenkai. This is a bit difficult, since we have no clue how strong Cell would be without the majin boost but with the Zenkai. Still near Gohan, I guess. But that is speculation. In any case, in-universe Cell is more likely to win than to lose against Vegeta.
But you are right, that Cell has to be stopped somehow during this revolt. I don't think they will go the way of making him invincible only to stop acting as soon as Babidi is killed. The dragonball way of things is that he has to be defeatet before Babidi is finally stopped. So that leaves only 2 options I think: 1. He is defeated by Gohan somehow (unlikely since I doubt that Gohan has room to grow and already gave everything he had - as proven by his no-playing-around mentality against Nappa and the Juniors) 2. He is defeated by Bra. And there we have the moment where those two clash. I don't see any point in repeating this fight later in the tournament. As far as I remember there is not a single match-up that happened more than once during the whole story. Not even in the revolt, or is there?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 23, 2019 20:32:25 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. [...] Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. Well, in a context where Cell keeps all the power-ups he gained through the revolt, Vegeta has no chance. Salagir classified Buutenks as SSJ4-Tier. How would Vegeta climb up to that level? Whether or not Super Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed Cell if the latter didn't dodge is still debatable in my opinion. I think his shocked reaction was only for the show and to give Vegeta hope - just to see him suffer even more when Cell revealed his regeneration to him. And this situation would never come back in the tournament setting. Why would Cell let himself be hit by an attack deliberately? So no matter how strong Vegeta got, if he didn't surpass Gohan (which he is not supposed to do) he has no chance against post-revolt-Cell. No trickery could make up for the difference in power. And I don't see why Cell should lose the power-up from Majinization when Vegeta didn't even after he died. There is no indication that he was weaker than Majin Vegeta when he came back.
Now in case, Cell does lose both the majin power-up and the second Zenkai (because Mary-Sue turns back time for example or via Dragonballs in a wish like "make everything as it was before the revolt happened") then I'd still put Cell in a solid SSJ3 tier which would make the fight somewhat even (assuming Vegeta really has something in his sleeve). But that would only be powerlevel wise. Cell still has the better abilities. And if not for his regeneration he still has a lot of other skills that make him a dangerous opponent (IT, Solar Flare, Eye-Beams, Shield etc.).
And then there is still a possibility inbetween: Cell loses the majin power-up but not the second Zenkai. This is a bit difficult, since we have no clue how strong Cell would be without the majin boost but with the Zenkai. Still near Gohan, I guess. But that is speculation. In any case, in-universe Cell is more likely to win than to lose against Vegeta.
But you are right, that Cell has to be stopped somehow during this revolt. I don't think they will go the way of making him invincible only to stop acting as soon as Babidi is killed. The dragonball way of things is that he has to be defeatet before Babidi is finally stopped. So that leaves only 2 options I think: 1. He is defeated by Gohan somehow (unlikely since I doubt that Gohan has room to grow and already gave everything he had - as proven by his no-playing-around mentality against Nappa and the Juniors) 2. He is defeated by Bra. And there we have the moment where those two clash. I don't see any point in repeating this fight later in the tournament. As far as I remember there is not a single match-up that happened more than once during the whole story. Not even in the revolt, or is there? Krilin vs. Sauza, kinda.
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Post by Solus on Jan 23, 2019 20:49:43 GMT
Well, in a context where Cell keeps all the power-ups he gained through the revolt, Vegeta has no chance. Salagir classified Buutenks as SSJ4-Tier. How would Vegeta climb up to that level? Whether or not Super Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed Cell if the latter didn't dodge is still debatable in my opinion. I think his shocked reaction was only for the show and to give Vegeta hope - just to see him suffer even more when Cell revealed his regeneration to him. And this situation would never come back in the tournament setting. Why would Cell let himself be hit by an attack deliberately? So no matter how strong Vegeta got, if he didn't surpass Gohan (which he is not supposed to do) he has no chance against post-revolt-Cell. No trickery could make up for the difference in power. And I don't see why Cell should lose the power-up from Majinization when Vegeta didn't even after he died. There is no indication that he was weaker than Majin Vegeta when he came back.
Now in case, Cell does lose both the majin power-up and the second Zenkai (because Mary-Sue turns back time for example or via Dragonballs in a wish like "make everything as it was before the revolt happened") then I'd still put Cell in a solid SSJ3 tier which would make the fight somewhat even (assuming Vegeta really has something in his sleeve). But that would only be powerlevel wise. Cell still has the better abilities. And if not for his regeneration he still has a lot of other skills that make him a dangerous opponent (IT, Solar Flare, Eye-Beams, Shield etc.).
And then there is still a possibility inbetween: Cell loses the majin power-up but not the second Zenkai. This is a bit difficult, since we have no clue how strong Cell would be without the majin boost but with the Zenkai. Still near Gohan, I guess. But that is speculation. In any case, in-universe Cell is more likely to win than to lose against Vegeta.
But you are right, that Cell has to be stopped somehow during this revolt. I don't think they will go the way of making him invincible only to stop acting as soon as Babidi is killed. The dragonball way of things is that he has to be defeatet before Babidi is finally stopped. So that leaves only 2 options I think: 1. He is defeated by Gohan somehow (unlikely since I doubt that Gohan has room to grow and already gave everything he had - as proven by his no-playing-around mentality against Nappa and the Juniors) 2. He is defeated by Bra. And there we have the moment where those two clash. I don't see any point in repeating this fight later in the tournament. As far as I remember there is not a single match-up that happened more than once during the whole story. Not even in the revolt, or is there? Krilin vs. Sauza, kinda. Ok, you got me there. But that's the only one, I think. You get my point, don't you?
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 24, 2019 0:58:13 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. [...] Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. Well, in a context where Cell keeps all the power-ups he gained through the revolt, Vegeta has no chance. Salagir classified Buutenks as SSJ4-Tier. How would Vegeta climb up to that level? Whether or not Super Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed Cell if the latter didn't dodge is still debatable in my opinion. I think his shocked reaction was only for the show and to give Vegeta hope - just to see him suffer even more when Cell revealed his regeneration to him. And this situation would never come back in the tournament setting. Why would Cell let himself be hit by an attack deliberately? So no matter how strong Vegeta got, if he didn't surpass Gohan (which he is not supposed to do) he has no chance against post-revolt-Cell. No trickery could make up for the difference in power. And I don't see why Cell should lose the power-up from Majinization when Vegeta didn't even after he died. There is no indication that he was weaker than Majin Vegeta when he came back.
Now in case, Cell does lose both the majin power-up and the second Zenkai (because Mary-Sue turns back time for example or via Dragonballs in a wish like "make everything as it was before the revolt happened") then I'd still put Cell in a solid SSJ3 tier which would make the fight somewhat even (assuming Vegeta really has something in his sleeve). But that would only be powerlevel wise. Cell still has the better abilities. And if not for his regeneration he still has a lot of other skills that make him a dangerous opponent (IT, Solar Flare, Eye-Beams, Shield etc.).
And then there is still a possibility inbetween: Cell loses the majin power-up but not the second Zenkai. This is a bit difficult, since we have no clue how strong Cell would be without the majin boost but with the Zenkai. Still near Gohan, I guess. But that is speculation. In any case, in-universe Cell is more likely to win than to lose against Vegeta.
But you are right, that Cell has to be stopped somehow during this revolt. I don't think they will go the way of making him invincible only to stop acting as soon as Babidi is killed. The dragonball way of things is that he has to be defeatet before Babidi is finally stopped. So that leaves only 2 options I think: 1. He is defeated by Gohan somehow (unlikely since I doubt that Gohan has room to grow and already gave everything he had - as proven by his no-playing-around mentality against Nappa and the Juniors) 2. He is defeated by Bra. And there we have the moment where those two clash. I don't see any point in repeating this fight later in the tournament. As far as I remember there is not a single match-up that happened more than once during the whole story. Not even in the revolt, or is there? In all likelihood, Cell is probably still weaker than Buutenks. Cell really only nailed Gohan with the Special Beam Canon and hit his hand, a technique that allowed Piccolo to kill someone who was much stronger than him and someone who was a little bit stronger than him at the time (Raditz and Goku). Cell was hardly Super Buu level before the Zenkai. Not only that but Cell isn't keeping the Majin powerup I bet.
Vegeta used the Majin power up to unlock SSJ2 to even the odds against Goku and that's assuming he never had SSJ2 beforehand but he lost that power up and it's clear that Goku's base is higher than Vegeta's base power at the time. The gap most likely narrowed from then to DBM because they both bumped into more diminishing returns. I mean take Spopovitch never transformed since humans don't have transformations but yet his power increased dramatically, going from weaker than Hercule to stronger than Videl. If the Majin power up was only there to unlock transformations but never increase base power then how is Cell any stronger with the Majin power up or how is Spopovitch any stronger? They don't have transformations, the answer is, they still got stronger, without transforming which implies that Majin Vegeta > Vegeta in base and SSJ not even counting gaining a new form.
I can't confirm this myself but based on Spopovitch, Yamu, Dabura, Cell, or even characters that already had transformations but never reached a new level, I come to the conclusion that the Majin boost pushed Vegeta at a high enough threshold that he can unlock SSJ2 if he hasn't already. With Cell, he got no new transformations, he got one Zenkai but that's it. When the Majin crisis is reverted and if Cell is around, his Majin boost is gone and he will be weaker, still stronger than he was before the crisis but weaker than Majin Cell was initially when he was Majin.
Whether Vegeta wins against Cell is very debatable, but not impossible just yet...well, unless he get's another Zenkai then maybe the winner will be obvious. Cell is too strong for DBM SSJ2 Vegeta and his new form has to be something else (maybe not as powerful as SSJ3 but close enough) to be able to pull a win. I would put Vegeta and Cell at a 40%/60% chance of winning in Cell's favor.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 24, 2019 3:33:02 GMT
If Cell beats Vegeta I could see the finals being Cell and Bra, but I think Bra would end up the winner in that scenario and win the whole tournament over Cell. That assuming if the tournament continues all the way through. Cell I don’t see winning the tournament because I think his zenkai boosts are as potent as they once were and think he will lose the Majin power boost when the invasion is over. So far DBM has had all the major villains have a major comeuppance during the tournament as kramatic payback for their crimes. [...] Cell is due for a major defeat that destroys his pride like the others. I can see Vegeta upstaging him and winning the match. It would hurt for Cell to lose to Vegeta of all people considering how much Vegeta humiliated him. If he learns Vegeta is still weaker than Gohan afterward it would be hit even harder because it would mean Cell despite his zenkai boost in between matches couldn’t defeat his ultimate rival without Babidi’s magic. If he does beat Vegeta and then wins against Goku or Uub then him being destroyed by U16 Bra as easily as Gohan did when he first went SS2 is still fitting defeat for him. Bra mastering SS2 would remind him of Gohan decades ago for him. Cell hasn’t acknowledged Bra at all during the comic, which reminds me of how he treated Gohan. Underestimating the kid would be his downfall once again and being forced to swallow he isn’t the perfect being he viewed himself as. To add insult to injury he won’t be defeated by Vegetto or U4 Buu the two strongest warriors in the tournament, but second best. Cell and Bra do make good foils of each other. Thematically Cell being defeated by Bra would make as much sense as Vegeta and serve as a way to show Bra’s character development. By that point I think we will have seen some of Bra’s character development in action. Well, in a context where Cell keeps all the power-ups he gained through the revolt, Vegeta has no chance. Salagir classified Buutenks as SSJ4-Tier. How would Vegeta climb up to that level? Whether or not Super Vegeta's Final Flash could have killed Cell if the latter didn't dodge is still debatable in my opinion. I think his shocked reaction was only for the show and to give Vegeta hope - just to see him suffer even more when Cell revealed his regeneration to him. And this situation would never come back in the tournament setting. Why would Cell let himself be hit by an attack deliberately? So no matter how strong Vegeta got, if he didn't surpass Gohan (which he is not supposed to do) he has no chance against post-revolt-Cell. No trickery could make up for the difference in power. And I don't see why Cell should lose the power-up from Majinization when Vegeta didn't even after he died. There is no indication that he was weaker than Majin Vegeta when he came back.
Now in case, Cell does lose both the majin power-up and the second Zenkai (because Mary-Sue turns back time for example or via Dragonballs in a wish like "make everything as it was before the revolt happened") then I'd still put Cell in a solid SSJ3 tier which would make the fight somewhat even (assuming Vegeta really has something in his sleeve). But that would only be powerlevel wise. Cell still has the better abilities. And if not for his regeneration he still has a lot of other skills that make him a dangerous opponent (IT, Solar Flare, Eye-Beams, Shield etc.).
And then there is still a possibility inbetween: Cell loses the majin power-up but not the second Zenkai. This is a bit difficult, since we have no clue how strong Cell would be without the majin boost but with the Zenkai. Still near Gohan, I guess. But that is speculation. In any case, in-universe Cell is more likely to win than to lose against Vegeta.
But you are right, that Cell has to be stopped somehow during this revolt. I don't think they will go the way of making him invincible only to stop acting as soon as Babidi is killed. The dragonball way of things is that he has to be defeatet before Babidi is finally stopped. So that leaves only 2 options I think: 1. He is defeated by Gohan somehow (unlikely since I doubt that Gohan has room to grow and already gave everything he had - as proven by his no-playing-around mentality against Nappa and the Juniors) 2. He is defeated by Bra. And there we have the moment where those two clash. I don't see any point in repeating this fight later in the tournament. As far as I remember there is not a single match-up that happened more than once during the whole story. Not even in the revolt, or is there? I think Vegeta did lose the power up though when he died. There is nothing to indicate that Vegeta kept it and am surprised you think he did keep it. Are you talking about Salagir said Vegeta in DBM needed Babidi to unlock SS2 and he kept the transformation after the fact? If so I guess I could see where you are coming from, but I always felt Vegeta kept the form only it was weaker than he was before. I think Cell's power up will go away after the Majin is gone. I don't really see Cell keeping it. I also think the zenkai boost are losing potency and he is reaching or nearing his max potential. Cell I think was a SS3 tier when he got here, but after having his body destroyed from the inside out and yet the zenkai boost seems much smaller in comparison to the one he got from his near suicide attempt. I say that because despite getting that zenkai boost and Majin power up Cell was about even with U16 Gohan. If the zenkai were just as potent as before I think Cell would have jumped to Ultimate Gohan level after his zenkai and would be much stronger than Gohan once he got a Majin power up, but he isn't.
Right off the bat I don't think Cell is or will ever approach Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu level of power during the tournament. That is why I think when Cell is freed from Babidi's possession that the power up will go and he will go back down to a level where Vegeta can fight him. Now I'm not necessarily saying Vegeta will destroy him or easily defeat him like he did Semi-Perfect Cell back in the days. I can see it being a hard fight and it being the one that forces Vegeta to reveal his new trick. I just think if Vegeta wins regardless of how hard Cell made it that Cell will still feel humiliated that despite two zenkai boost in the tournament that he couldn't overcome Vegeta of all people. I always got the feeling Cell never thought too highly of Vegeta and merely sees him as second rate to his real desired fight (Goku at first, but now Gohan). Cell knowing that he once had the power to easily crush Vegeta (Majin power boost) would be enraged that without the wizard he couldn't best Vegeta on his own and thus couldn't outdo Gohan on his own. It would hurt Cell's pride.
Like I said if Cell does win and he does keep the power up than Bra is also a good option. I'm not saying Vegeta has to win. I tried to cover my bases by also saying if Cell wins he would likely go to the finals (meaning he would beat Goku as well) and meet U16 Bra in the finals. U16 Bra has the power to defeat Cell, because even if Cell keeps Babidi's power up and stays stronger than Ultimate Gohan that he would likely lose to SS2 Bra who learned to control her anger. I'm in no way saying Vegeta's victory is a sure thing. I just said either Vegeta or Bra defeating him would serve as a comeuppance for him like the other villains in the tournament have so far. In terms of losing in the revolt if U16 Bra is truly on Babidi's side than I think the only one who could stop Cell and Bra is Vegetto. Like I mentioned before if we get Majin Bra, lose U18 Gohan to Babidi's plan, and U19 warriors there is nothing to stop Majin Cell and Majin U16 Bra with the people we have left on the tournament grounds, and U4 Buu likely stops dicking around and gets everyone back so Vegetto can clean things up, regardless of how people may or may not hate the idea of Vegetto or U16 saving the day.
Now if U16 Bra isn't under Babidi's control and she defeats Cell by mastering SS2 then I could see Cell losing to Vegeta if the tournament continues. Cell has more abilities and a larger array of techniques, but we have seen time and time again that fighters with less abilities or more straightforward techniques can beat ones that have more. Goku has defeated both classic Demon King Piccolo and Piccolo Junior despite both of them regenerating. Unlike Buu's regeneration Cell's isn't automatic, cost power to use, and can drain his stamina. When Goku blew up his top half he still suffered a large ki lost. If the attack isn't strong enough to bring Cell close to death his regeneration won't replenish his stamina and ki and his enemy's attacks will still take a toll on him. Like we're seeing right now even though Cell was equal to U16 Gohan both sides have been losing stamina and Cell's regeneration did nothing to solve that (mostly because his regeneration is meant to regrow limbs and restore his body if it is taken apart, unlike Buu's better regen). Cell's other ki techniques were shown they can be bested by a fighter, like what we saw Goku do in the Cell Games. I don't see Cell's techniques and regeneration giving him that much more of an advantage than Vegeta if the two fight in their match and Cell loses his Majin power up.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Jan 26, 2019 12:51:09 GMT
I think Vegeta did lose the power up though when he died. There is nothing to indicate that Vegeta kept it and am surprised you think he did keep it. Are you talking about Salagir said Vegeta in DBM needed Babidi to unlock SS2 and he kept the transformation after the fact? If so I guess I could see where you are coming from, but I always felt Vegeta kept the form only it was weaker than he was before. I think Cell's power up will go away after the Majin is gone. I don't really see Cell keeping it. I also think the zenkai boost are losing potency and he is reaching or nearing his max potential. Cell I think was a SS3 tier when he got here, but after having his body destroyed from the inside out and yet the zenkai boost seems much smaller in comparison to the one he got from his near suicide attempt. I say that because despite getting that zenkai boost and Majin power up Cell was about even with U16 Gohan. If the zenkai were just as potent as before I think Cell would have jumped to Ultimate Gohan level after his zenkai and would be much stronger than Gohan once he got a Majin power up, but he isn't. Right off the bat I don't think Cell is or will ever approach Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu level of power during the tournament. That is why I think when Cell is freed from Babidi's possession that the power up will go and he will go back down to a level where Vegeta can fight him. Now I'm not necessarily saying Vegeta will destroy him or easily defeat him like he did Semi-Perfect Cell back in the days. I can see it being a hard fight and it being the one that forces Vegeta to reveal his new trick. I just think if Vegeta wins regardless of how hard Cell made it that Cell will still feel humiliated that despite two zenkai boost in the tournament that he couldn't overcome Vegeta of all people. I always got the feeling Cell never thought too highly of Vegeta and merely sees him as second rate to his real desired fight (Goku at first, but now Gohan). Cell knowing that he once had the power to easily crush Vegeta (Majin power boost) would be enraged that without the wizard he couldn't best Vegeta on his own and thus couldn't outdo Gohan on his own. It would hurt Cell's pride. Like I said if Cell does win and he does keep the power up than Bra is also a good option. I'm not saying Vegeta has to win. I tried to cover my bases by also saying if Cell wins he would likely go to the finals (meaning he would beat Goku as well) and meet U16 Bra in the finals. U16 Bra has the power to defeat Cell, because even if Cell keeps Babidi's power up and stays stronger than Ultimate Gohan that he would likely lose to SS2 Bra who learned to control her anger. I'm in no way saying Vegeta's victory is a sure thing. I just said either Vegeta or Bra defeating him would serve as a comeuppance for him like the other villains in the tournament have so far. In terms of losing in the revolt if U16 Bra is truly on Babidi's side than I think the only one who could stop Cell and Bra is Vegetto. Like I mentioned before if we get Majin Bra, lose U18 Gohan to Babidi's plan, and U19 warriors there is nothing to stop Majin Cell and Majin U16 Bra with the people we have left on the tournament grounds, and U4 Buu likely stops dicking around and gets everyone back so Vegetto can clean things up, regardless of how people may or may not hate the idea of Vegetto or U16 saving the day. Now if U16 Bra isn't under Babidi's control and she defeats Cell by mastering SS2 then I could see Cell losing to Vegeta if the tournament continues. Cell has more abilities and a larger array of techniques, but we have seen time and time again that fighters with less abilities or more straightforward techniques can beat ones that have more. Goku has defeated both classic Demon King Piccolo and Piccolo Junior despite both of them regenerating. Unlike Buu's regeneration Cell's isn't automatic, cost power to use, and can drain his stamina. When Goku blew up his top half he still suffered a large ki lost. If the attack isn't strong enough to bring Cell close to death his regeneration won't replenish his stamina and ki and his enemy's attacks will still take a toll on him. Like we're seeing right now even though Cell was equal to U16 Gohan both sides have been losing stamina and Cell's regeneration did nothing to solve that (mostly because his regeneration is meant to regrow limbs and restore his body if it is taken apart, unlike Buu's better regen). Cell's other ki techniques were shown they can be bested by a fighter, like what we saw Goku do in the Cell Games. I don't see Cell's techniques and regeneration giving him that much more of an advantage than Vegeta if the two fight in their match and Cell loses his Majin power up. IMO the biggest proof of Vegeta losing the power up was that he was able to match and even defeat Goku in their fight as Majin but went back to being below Goku after he died. We all know Goku was holding back but to what extent? I've always thought Goku did go all out in SSJ2 form and the only way he held back in that fight was by not going SSJ3, in which case he would have crushed Vegeta regardless of any Majin boost. I must say I don't recall if it was ever stated that Vegeta didn't have SSJ2 before being majinized. Considering he's not the type to drop the ball with training and even mocks Gohan for slacking off, it's possible he already had SSJ2 before Majin. After all, he did attain SSJ1 almost purely with training even though he did need a catalyst (meteor shower), and other versions of him in DBM have been able to master transformations with pure training (most recently, his U3 counterpart). Besides, I'm not sure if he'd even try to challenge Goku in the tournament if he hadn't unlocked SSJ2 already, considering everyone knew Goku was training hard in the Other World. What people didn't know was that Goku had learned of SSJ3 there, as well as Metamoru, which was yet another of Toriyama's generous buffs to Goku throughout the series, as he went from FPSSJ1 and unable to reach SSJ2 to defeat Cell to mastering SSJ3 just because "he was dead so he didn't have the same energy constraints as the living". The HTC arc in the Cell saga was all about who would win the race to amass enough PL to defeat Cell. Vegeta and Trunks hastily thought ASSJ would be enough, and, against Semi-Perfect Cell, it was much more than enough. Goku on the other hand didn't consider ASSJ worth going for, but he couldn't reach SSJ2 by himself either despite starting higher than Gohan. Therefore, if Goku can push himself to SSJ2 with harsh training only, IMO Vegeta could have done the same, which gives more credibility to the theory that the Majin boost is lost when the host is no longer under Babidi's influence. In such case, Majin didn't give Vegeta SSJ2, only the PL boost, which would mean Cell loses his boost as well. A Cell without the Majin boost would still need a healthy dose of zenkai to match the level where we believe Vegeta stands. When Cell killed Gohan, he was fresh SSJ2 level. Cell Games level is below that, which makes it odd that U18 found it believable that Cell could have regressed to such level. Without encountering strong enough enemies to push him, I'm not sure if Cell progressed that much in the years between him killing Gohan and DBM. It's possible he's seen his biggest boosts already during the DBM tournament.
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Post by Solus on Jan 27, 2019 16:15:56 GMT
You all said basically the same in perfect disregard of what I wrote before. So let's return to canon facts (and by canon I mean DB Manga and DBM Manga).
1. About Cell's initial powerlevel: Despite many theories about Gohan losing "half of his Ki" Cell himself stated when he returned, that his new power is as big as Gohan's. I don't think there is any reason to not believe him at this point. So Super Perfect Cell = Teen Gohan SSJ2.
2. About Majin Vegeta: Vegeta wanted to challenge Goku during the Tournament, clearly without knowing that Goku also had SSJ2. But since both of them agreed not to transform, that doesn't really play a role. Vegeta first recognized that Goku has SSJ2 when the latter fought Yakon. Vegeta then thought, that Goku has also exceeded beyond SSJ, while it is really unclear at that point if Vegeta was refering to himself or to Gohan who at that point in time was the only one known to have reached level 2. It is up to interpretation, but I see it as Vegeta realized that he could not defeat Goku because Goku has the higher transformation. In the fight against Yakon Goku never went all out but only showed a mere glimpse of his power, so Vegeta wouldn't know the full extend of Goku's power and couldn't guess if his own SSJ2 was enough for that. But as I said, that's up to interpretation. There is no info about that in the manga. When Goku fought Majin Vegeta, both were exactly on par. There was no winner. But after that they never fought again. Neither against each other nor the same opponent. Because in the manga there is no fight against Super Buu and even when they fought Kid Buu, they were not in the same form. Goku was exclusively fought in SSJ3 so we cannot compare how well they fared against the same opponent. There is no indication whether Vegeta lost or kept his majin power-up. In my oppinion Goku would have stated something along the lines that Vegeta is not as strong as when they fought the other day, but he also didn't state anything else. So we just cannot know if Vegeta kept the boost or not.
3. the "Gohan-limit": Salagir once stated that neither Goku nor Vegeta could ever reach Gohan's level. And there is indeed no single point during the tournament that indicates that Goku is even near that. Much less Vegeta. So whatever happens, we know that Vegeta is not as strong as Gohan.
4. About Cell's power level at the start of the tournament: The only thing we know is, that Cell was at a higher level than the Junior he hatched. As the Junior was stronger than Super Perfect Cell back in the days (as stated by U18 during the fight against Gast), Cell must have been at least on a high SSJ2 level. That is the absolut minimum for him to start. He never mentioned that he got a Zenkai during his fight against Dabra, so there is no reason for us to assume he did (I know neither of you said something like that, but just to be clear here). The first time he became stronger, was against Hildegarn. There he stated that he got a Zenkai - but only a minor one. Then he was majinized.
5. Now Cell fought Gohan on par. There is not a single indication that Gohan was holding back against him, especially because he has absolutely no reason to do so. This is no tournament fight but a life or death situation with many factors around. With the life of his friends and family on the line he has no time to waste. And yet Gohan couldn't defeat Cell. If they were not equal in strength then Cell would be the stronger one. Comparing Cell's SBC to Piccolo's is pointless, since Cell didn't charge it. Of course an uncharged attack has to be weaker than one the user has charged for a long time (like against raditz or Freezer and Cooler). So for all we know (and not what we want to believe) Cell + 1 Zenkai + Majin Boost = Mystic Gohan. And even in the Novel (which I usually don't take as reference) Gohan admits that he has a hard time against Cell.
6. The second Zenkai: It is still up to debate whether or not Cell got a Zenkai from being sliced up by Nedwook. But Nedwook's scan indicates that he did get at least a small Zenkai.
Now the interpretation part: As we know that Vegeta is not as strong as Gohan, we can conlude that Vegeta will not be as strong as Cell + 1 Zenkai + Majin Boost. But now we have Cell + 1 Zenkai + Majin Boost + 1 Zenkai. That makes Cell way out of reach for Vegeta. Do you all agree to that?
If we take away the majin boost (because you assume that he will lose that boost once the situation is solved), we still have a Cell that must be in a high SSJ3 tier, unless the majin boost would have amped him two tiers for him to be able to be on par with Gohan. And that does not include the second Zenkai. So maybe even without the majin boost Cell would be on Gohan's level now. We will see how he fares against Gohan in the next chapter. So there is no point in speculating his actual level now.
And about the majin boost: We actually did not see a single character in DBM getting significantly stronger via the boost. That doesn't mean that they did not get stronger in fact. But we do not know by how much. Non of the fighters repeated a fight against someone. Except for Kuririn and Sauca and here Sauca still lost. Freezer and Cooler also lost against Piccolo, no different result as if they were non-majinized. Cold was stronger than Piccolo but he was before the boost, too. Taking Yamu and Spopovich for reference and then saying that their powers got multiplied and therefore all other characters should gain a major boost from it, doesn't make sense. The only canon example of a strong character getting majinized is Vegeta. And as I said in point 2. we do not know whether it really made him stronger or just unlocked his transformation or both. And if he got stronger, by how much, if we don't count the transformation? How much did his base level rise? There is no answer to that. So we have absolutely no base to calculate Cell's actual level with or without majin boost. And we also don't know what Vegeta's ace is supposed to be.
The only thing I am sure of (and that is still interpretation) is that Vegeta can't defeat Cell the way he is at this point of the revolt.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 27, 2019 20:25:20 GMT
You all said basically the same in perfect disregard of what I wrote before. So let's return to canon facts (and by canon I mean DB Manga and DBM Manga).
1. About Cell's initial powerlevel: Despite many theories about Gohan losing "half of his Ki" Cell himself stated when he returned, that his new power is as big as Gohan's. I don't think there is any reason to not believe him at this point. So Super Perfect Cell = Teen Gohan SSJ2.
2. About Majin Vegeta: Vegeta wanted to challenge Goku during the Tournament, clearly without knowing that Goku also had SSJ2. But since both of them agreed not to transform, that doesn't really play a role. Vegeta first recognized that Goku has SSJ2 when the latter fought Yakon. Vegeta then thought, that Goku has also exceeded beyond SSJ, while it is really unclear at that point if Vegeta was refering to himself or to Gohan who at that point in time was the only one known to have reached level 2. It is up to interpretation, but I see it as Vegeta realized that he could not defeat Goku because Goku has the higher transformation. In the fight against Yakon Goku never went all out but only showed a mere glimpse of his power, so Vegeta wouldn't know the full extend of Goku's power and couldn't guess if his own SSJ2 was enough for that. But as I said, that's up to interpretation. There is no info about that in the manga. When Goku fought Majin Vegeta, both were exactly on par. There was no winner. But after that they never fought again. Neither against each other nor the same opponent. Because in the manga there is no fight against Super Buu and even when they fought Kid Buu, they were not in the same form. Goku was exclusively fought in SSJ3 so we cannot compare how well they fared against the same opponent. There is no indication whether Vegeta lost or kept his majin power-up. In my oppinion Goku would have stated something along the lines that Vegeta is not as strong as when they fought the other day, but he also didn't state anything else. So we just cannot know if Vegeta kept the boost or not.
3. the "Gohan-limit": Salagir once stated that neither Goku nor Vegeta could ever reach Gohan's level. And there is indeed no single point during the tournament that indicates that Goku is even near that. Much less Vegeta. So whatever happens, we know that Vegeta is not as strong as Gohan.
4. About Cell's power level at the start of the tournament: The only thing we know is, that Cell was at a higher level than the Junior he hatched. As the Junior was stronger than Super Perfect Cell back in the days (as stated by U18 during the fight against Gast), Cell must have been at least on a high SSJ2 level. That is the absolut minimum for him to start. He never mentioned that he got a Zenkai during his fight against Dabra, so there is no reason for us to assume he did (I know neither of you said something like that, but just to be clear here). The first time he became stronger, was against Hildegarn. There he stated that he got a Zenkai - but only a minor one. Then he was majinized.
5. Now Cell fought Gohan on par. There is not a single indication that Gohan was holding back against him, especially because he has absolutely no reason to do so. This is no tournament fight but a life or death situation with many factors around. With the life of his friends and family on the line he has no time to waste. And yet Gohan couldn't defeat Cell. If they were not equal in strength then Cell would be the stronger one. Comparing Cell's SBC to Piccolo's is pointless, since Cell didn't charge it. Of course an uncharged attack has to be weaker than one the user has charged for a long time (like against raditz or Freezer and Cooler). So for all we know (and not what we want to believe) Cell + 1 Zenkai + Majin Boost = Mystic Gohan. And even in the Novel (which I usually don't take as reference) Gohan admits that he has a hard time against Cell.
6. The second Zenkai: It is still up to debate whether or not Cell got a Zenkai from being sliced up by Nedwook. But Nedwook's scan indicates that he did get at least a small Zenkai.
Now the interpretation part: As we know that Vegeta is not as strong as Gohan, we can conlude that Vegeta will not be as strong as Cell + 1 Zenkai + Majin Boost. But now we have Cell + 1 Zenkai + Majin Boost + 1 Zenkai. That makes Cell way out of reach for Vegeta. Do you all agree to that?
If we take away the majin boost (because you assume that he will lose that boost once the situation is solved), we still have a Cell that must be in a high SSJ3 tier, unless the majin boost would have amped him two tiers for him to be able to be on par with Gohan. And that does not include the second Zenkai. So maybe even without the majin boost Cell would be on Gohan's level now. We will see how he fares against Gohan in the next chapter. So there is no point in speculating his actual level now.
And about the majin boost: We actually did not see a single character in DBM getting significantly stronger via the boost. That doesn't mean that they did not get stronger in fact. But we do not know by how much. Non of the fighters repeated a fight against someone. Except for Kuririn and Sauca and here Sauca still lost. Freezer and Cooler also lost against Piccolo, no different result as if they were non-majinized. Cold was stronger than Piccolo but he was before the boost, too. Taking Yamu and Spopovich for reference and then saying that their powers got multiplied and therefore all other characters should gain a major boost from it, doesn't make sense. The only canon example of a strong character getting majinized is Vegeta. And as I said in point 2. we do not know whether it really made him stronger or just unlocked his transformation or both. And if he got stronger, by how much, if we don't count the transformation? How much did his base level rise? There is no answer to that. So we have absolutely no base to calculate Cell's actual level with or without majin boost. And we also don't know what Vegeta's ace is supposed to be.
The only thing I am sure of (and that is still interpretation) is that Vegeta can't defeat Cell the way he is at this point of the revolt.
I think I misunderstood your post then because when I read it I thought what you got from my post was that I was saying Vegeta was stronger than Majin Cell or Gohan and he would win for sure.You only quoted my post on the Vegeta stuff I thought I wasn’t clear enough on my ideas on Cell’s potential loss in the tournament and why I thought it was possible for Vegeta to win. My second post was meant to go into more detail on my first post to make it clearer and to address some of your points that seemed directed at me. I’m not sure what you felt I disregarded of your post. I never argued Vegeta would beat Majin Cell during the revolt. All my points were at the tournament should it continue and assuming Cell lost the Majin power up. Even then I acknowledge I could be wrong and mentioned he could make it to the finals, which would mean beating Vegeta and Goku/Uub, and face U16 Bra in the finals for someone who could defeat him, assuming he stays as strong as he is in the revolt. I tired to focus on my points on why I think Vegeta might win if the tournament continued and make it clearer that I wasn’t trying to say Vegeta would be stronger than Gohan. That is why put more emphasis on Cell losing the power up and explaining why I think his zenkai are losing potency and why I think Majin is a bigger power up for Cell than it appears. I agree that is speculation on my part though. My post was speculation on potential outcomes for Cell and why I think he will not win and suffer a major or humiliating defeat like a lot of the other villains in the tournament. If you felt I disregarded your points I am sorry. I should have made it clearer what my intent was. I will ask what your intent is. From what I am reading in this post you ultimate argument is we have no idea how strong Cell is, but we know Gohan and he are or were equal when the revolted started and Vegeta cannot be stronger than Gohan, and Cell is stronger than Vegeta right now. Is that right? If it is I agreed with you, but my point was never Vegeta is stronger than Majin Cell or Ultimate Gohan though. I was confused what your post meant in addressing my post.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Jan 30, 2019 6:12:37 GMT
My take? I reckon that even with the Zenkai's and Majinisation Cell is not more powerful then Vegeta, therefore who wins will come down to strategy and skills, not power. Cell was likely SS3 tier even at the start of the tournament, but with the Zenkai's and now majinisation he's gone up to top-tier SS3 (Mystic). However if we go by the interpretation that Gohan is as high as a non-fused character can get, then even Cell could not surpass that level. In fact the only 2 people in DBM who are stronger then that SS3 tier are Vegito and Buu.
But let's follow this thread to it's conclusion- If Cell beats Vegeta and Goku, he will have to face either Buu, XXI, Bra or Gast.
Zen Buu: No chance, Cells dwarfed in literally every single way (Power, Tricks, skills, intelligence)
XXI: I would almost compare Cell to a much weaker version of current Zen Buu. So if XXI can beat Buu, Cell wouldnt stand a chance.
Gast: This would be a realy interesting match- Cell's stronger on the Technique/Tech side, while Gast has his own set of Namekian abilities. Their power is probably around equal, and they're both very intelligent. I would love to see this match, but i can't see how they'd fit it in.
Bra: As long as she didn't go SS2 i think this would be a very close match. Both have a plethora of unique techniques, are arrogant to a fault but with the power to back it up. In fact even if she did go SS2, with her lack of control it's quite possible Cell could trick her with the help of his regen.
So if the tournmanet doesn't reach the Grand Final (Quite likely) i suppose it doesn't matter who wins.
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Post by Andres on Jan 30, 2019 12:29:33 GMT
Gast: This would be a realy interesting match- Cell's stronger on the Technique/Tech side, while Gast has his own set of Namekian abilities. Their power is probably around equal, and they're both very intelligent. I would love to see this match, but i can't see how they'd fit it in. Here you go:
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Post by Solus on Jan 30, 2019 18:44:08 GMT
My take? I reckon that 1. even with the Zenkai's and Majinisation Cell is not more powerful then Vegeta, therefore who wins will come down to strategy and skills, not power. Cell was likely SS3 tier even at the start of the tournament, but with the Zenkai's and now majinisation he's gone up to top-tier SS3 (Mystic). However if we go by the interpretation that 2. Gohan is as high as a non-fused character can get, then even Cell could not surpass that level. 3. In fact the only 2 people in DBM who are stronger then that SS3 tier are Vegito and Buu. How come you think so? 1. Cell is way stronger than Vegeta was shown to be up to this point. 2. Does Cell really count as a non-fused character? And even if so, he was already as strong as Gohan even before the second Zenkai. 3. So is Bra (who is not even fused), Gotenks, Broly. So there is a chance, that Cell could also surpass that level.
I only tagged you, because you had some ideas I don't agree with. Like Vegeta losing the power-up with his death. So I explained why I don't think, this happened. But I could be wrong, too. As I said, Toriyama never clarified that. My actual point was, that I don't see a reason, why Cell should lose any of his power, after the conflict is solved and when the tournament continues. Unless, they use the dragonballs to wish everything back to the state it was before the revolt, of course.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Jan 30, 2019 19:55:16 GMT
Gast: This would be a realy interesting match- Cell's stronger on the Technique/Tech side, while Gast has his own set of Namekian abilities. Their power is probably around equal, and they're both very intelligent. I would love to see this match, but i can't see how they'd fit it in. Here you go: My take? I reckon that 1. even with the Zenkai's and Majinisation Cell is not more powerful then Vegeta, therefore who wins will come down to strategy and skills, not power. Cell was likely SS3 tier even at the start of the tournament, but with the Zenkai's and now majinisation he's gone up to top-tier SS3 (Mystic). However if we go by the interpretation that 2. Gohan is as high as a non-fused character can get, then even Cell could not surpass that level. 3. In fact the only 2 people in DBM who are stronger then that SS3 tier are Vegito and Buu. How come you think so? 1. Cell is way stronger than Vegeta was shown to be up to this point. 2. Does Cell really count as a non-fused character? And even if so, he was already as strong as Gohan even before the second Zenkai. 3. So is Bra (who is not even fused), Gotenks, Broly. So there is a chance, that Cell could also surpass that level.
I only tagged you, because you had some ideas I don't agree with. Like Vegeta losing the power-up with his death. So I explained why I don't think, this happened. But I could be wrong, too. As I said, Toriyama never clarified that. My actual point was, that I don't see a reason, why Cell should lose any of his power, after the conflict is solved and when the tournament continues. Unless, they use the dragonballs to wish everything back to the state it was before the revolt, of course.
Andres- As entertaining as those are- ('Green Face' still cracks me up) Unless they do increase the gravity for the next 2 rounds (Which i doubt they will), their actual matchup will be alot more interesting. Solus- Here's my logic: 1. While Cell HAS shown greater power then Vegeta has had to up untill now, that doesn't automatically make him stronger. Cell's had to fight at his max against Gohan (Who's roughly his equal). Vegeta's strongest opponent didn't even force him to crank up his SS2 that high. Since Salagir has only made a few characters higher then the SS3 tier (More on that later), and counts Mystic Gohan has the highest a non-fused character can go i don't think it's unreasonable to state that Cell can't surpass that level either. Now i know the novelisation has it's inconsistencies, but when it states that U18's Vegeta has a SS2 thats nearly as strong as a new SS3. Therefore if he has a 'peak' SS2, if he was to transform to a SS3 equivalent transformation, he'd be right at the peak of the SS3 tier, more then enough to face Cell.2. Cell will undoubtably lose his majin power before the 4th round commences. How he will i don't know, but when the rebellon fails I'm sure someone will force him to relinquish his hold on everyone. Without his majin power i feel that will make him a roughly even match with Vegeta. This will also make their fight extremly interesting since it will be more about tactics and skills then overwhelming power. 3. Bra's unique, and only a relatively small amount beyond peak SS3 tier when she's maxed out in her SS2. She's cetainly not even close to a max Buu or Vegito, AND she loses her control of that form so i'm not counting her. Gotenks is a temp fusion so also not counting him, plus 'regular' Gotenks (Before being boosted by Buu) would still not exceed that SS3 tier limit. Broly is no longer in the tournament (Or even the universe) so for that reason i don't count him either.
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Post by Solus on Jan 30, 2019 22:44:23 GMT
How come you think so? 1. Cell is way stronger than Vegeta was shown to be up to this point. 2. Does Cell really count as a non-fused character? And even if so, he was already as strong as Gohan even before the second Zenkai. 3. So is Bra (who is not even fused), Gotenks, Broly. So there is a chance, that Cell could also surpass that level.
I only tagged you, because you had some ideas I don't agree with. Like Vegeta losing the power-up with his death. So I explained why I don't think, this happened. But I could be wrong, too. As I said, Toriyama never clarified that. My actual point was, that I don't see a reason, why Cell should lose any of his power, after the conflict is solved and when the tournament continues. Unless, they use the dragonballs to wish everything back to the state it was before the revolt, of course.
Solus - Here's my logic: 1. While Cell HAS shown greater power then Vegeta has had to up untill now, that doesn't automatically make him stronger. Cell's had to fight at his max against Gohan (Who's roughly his equal). Vegeta's strongest opponent didn't even force him to crank up his SS2 that high. Since Salagir has only made a few characters higher then the SS3 tier (More on that later), and counts Mystic Gohan has the highest a non-fused character can go i don't think it's unreasonable to state that Cell can't surpass that level either. Now i know the novelisation has it's inconsistencies, but when it states that U18's Vegeta has a SS2 thats nearly as strong as a new SS3. Therefore if he has a 'peak' SS2, if he was to transform to a SS3 equivalent transformation, he'd be right at the peak of the SS3 tier, more then enough to face Cell.2. Cell will undoubtably lose his majin power before the 4th round commences. How he will i don't know, but when the rebellon fails I'm sure someone will force him to relinquish his hold on everyone. Without his majin power i feel that will make him a roughly even match with Vegeta. This will also make their fight extremly interesting since it will be more about tactics and skills then overwhelming power. 3. Bra's unique, and only a relatively small amount beyond peak SS3 tier when she's maxed out in her SS2. She's cetainly not even close to a max Buu or Vegito, AND she loses her control of that form so i'm not counting her. Gotenks is a temp fusion so also not counting him, plus 'regular' Gotenks (Before being boosted by Buu) would still not exceed that SS3 tier limit. Broly is no longer in the tournament (Or even the universe) so for that reason i don't count him either. I disagree, because your logic is not consistent. Let's just assume that Gohan is the absolute maximum. That was stated in the Salagir Reference Thread. That would mean that neither Goku nor Vegeta could reach that level, ok? There is no contradiction in the comic to this point, so we also take it as given. But now we have a precedent where Cell is already at that very level of Gohan (and don't start with "Gohan held back", because I've disproved that already). Do you want to tell me, that he didn't get stronger the slightest bit after his second Zenkai? Do you assume, it did nothing more than to refresh his Ki? That is possible, but it would be the first time in DB history that something like that happened. And besides that Cell himself stated that he got stronger. So Cell exceeded Gohan definitely. What now?
2. How can you be "undoubtably" sure, he does lose the buff when we have no precedent in the DB story that someone can lose that buff at all? I repeat myself for the fifth time or so, but we just don't know if Vegeta kept the strength he gained from the possession. But even if Cell lost the boost (of which we still don't know how big it was - again repeating myself), there is such a huge gap from SSJ3 to Mystic Gohan, that Vegeta even on level 3 wouldn't stand a chance. Cell had not only to lose the Majin Boost but also both of his Zenkais to fall back to level 3. That is a bit much to hope, I think. And I also think that you are vastly missjudging power levels in the Buu Saga. Gotenks SSJ1 was already as strong as Goku SSJ3, if not stronger. That's why Goku taught them the fusion. He didn't know that they would be able to pull SSJ3. But as Gotenks SSJ3 and Buu were on par you see the difference between Goku and Buu which was also acknowledged by Goku when he told Vegeta that fighting Buu (Super Buu for clarification) would be suicide. So Buu Saga Gotenks SSJ3 should be at the top in a SSJ3 tier. And as you can read in the Salagir Reference Thread , the author if DBM sees it the exact same way. Gohan is above SSJ3 tier. Actually way above. And so is Cell now.
3. Here you are again missinterpreting power levels and statements in the story. The new fusion dance didn't make Gotenks more powerful as in increasing his powerlevel. He is just a better fighter now, because he basically has no time limit and fuse and defuse at will. So "regular" adult Gotenks SSJ3 is also way stronger than kid Gotenks back in the days. He might have surpassed Gohan by a great margin, since during his fight with Zen Buu it was stated that they fight at Vegetto's level (even Vegetto SSJ1 would be way above Gohan). But as Gotenks is clearly a fusion, he has nothing to do with our actual discussion about Cell. Also Bra is not "only a relatively small amount beyond peak SS3 tier when she's maxed out in her SS2". She is almost as strong as Vegetto SSJ1. Again I recommend you to look that up in Salagir's tier list. But she is also not relevant to the discussion.
In DBZ the greater power level always makes you kind of invulnerable to attacks from minor fighters. If we want to take Cell as a reference, there are plenty of examples: Piccolo firing his strongest attack at him and he came out without a scratch though he didn't even block; C16 smashing his face (semi perfekt Cell) and doing nothing; Kuririn attacking perfect Cell and he does not even notice ... So if Cell has a power level that is high enough, there is no chance for Vegeta to win this. And also your assumption, that Vegeta would be automatically at a peak SSJ3 level if he had a similar transformation - just because he was at the peak SSJ2 level - is just wrong. He may be stronger than U13 Vegeta, but he would never reach the same level as Goku (not to speak of kid Gotenks) if he did not master the transformation. Teen Gohan was at the peak of SSJ1, even stronger than Goku, and still was just almost the lowest SSJ2 we have ever seen, undersold only by himself 7 years later.
I don't say that it is impossible for Vegeta to win, because his time to shine has yet to come. But he will have to pull every ace out of his gloves he can get. I don't see, how he could stand a single chance against this Cell, but the author is surely going to surprise us. It's just bullshit to assume that Vegeta could defeat Cell without a major asspull.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Jan 31, 2019 5:59:35 GMT
Solus - Here's my logic: 1. While Cell HAS shown greater power then Vegeta has had to up untill now, that doesn't automatically make him stronger. Cell's had to fight at his max against Gohan (Who's roughly his equal). Vegeta's strongest opponent didn't even force him to crank up his SS2 that high. Since Salagir has only made a few characters higher then the SS3 tier (More on that later), and counts Mystic Gohan has the highest a non-fused character can go i don't think it's unreasonable to state that Cell can't surpass that level either. Now i know the novelisation has it's inconsistencies, but when it states that U18's Vegeta has a SS2 thats nearly as strong as a new SS3. Therefore if he has a 'peak' SS2, if he was to transform to a SS3 equivalent transformation, he'd be right at the peak of the SS3 tier, more then enough to face Cell.2. Cell will undoubtably lose his majin power before the 4th round commences. How he will i don't know, but when the rebellon fails I'm sure someone will force him to relinquish his hold on everyone. Without his majin power i feel that will make him a roughly even match with Vegeta. This will also make their fight extremly interesting since it will be more about tactics and skills then overwhelming power. 3. Bra's unique, and only a relatively small amount beyond peak SS3 tier when she's maxed out in her SS2. She's cetainly not even close to a max Buu or Vegito, AND she loses her control of that form so i'm not counting her. Gotenks is a temp fusion so also not counting him, plus 'regular' Gotenks (Before being boosted by Buu) would still not exceed that SS3 tier limit. Broly is no longer in the tournament (Or even the universe) so for that reason i don't count him either. I disagree, because your logic is not consistent. Let's just assume that Gohan is the absolute maximum. That was stated in the Salagir Reference Thread. That would mean that neither Goku nor Vegeta could reach that level, ok? There is no contradiction in the comic to this point, so we also take it as given. But now we have a precedent where Cell is already at that very level of Gohan (and don't start with "Gohan held back", because I've disproved that already). Do you want to tell me, that he didn't get stronger the slightest bit after his second Zenkai? Do you assume, it did nothing more than to refresh his Ki? That is possible, but it would be the first time in DB history that something like that happened. And besides that Cell himself stated that he got stronger. So Cell exceeded Gohan definitely. What now?
2. How can you be "undoubtably" sure, he does lose the buff when we have no precedent in the DB story that someone can lose that buff at all? I repeat myself for the fifth time or so, but we just don't know if Vegeta kept the strength he gained from the possession. But even if Cell lost the boost (of which we still don't know how big it was - again repeating myself), there is such a huge gap from SSJ3 to Mystic Gohan, that Vegeta even on level 3 wouldn't stand a chance. Cell had not only to lose the Majin Boost but also both of his Zenkais to fall back to level 3. That is a bit much to hope, I think. And I also think that you are vastly missjudging power levels in the Buu Saga. Gotenks SSJ1 was already as strong as Goku SSJ3, if not stronger. That's why Goku taught them the fusion. He didn't know that they would be able to pull SSJ3. But as Gotenks SSJ3 and Buu were on par you see the difference between Goku and Buu which was also acknowledged by Goku when he told Vegeta that fighting Buu (Super Buu for clarification) would be suicide. So Buu Saga Gotenks SSJ3 should be at the top in a SSJ3 tier. And as you can read in the Salagir Reference Thread , the author if DBM sees it the exact same way. Gohan is above SSJ3 tier. Actually way above. And so is Cell now.
3. Here you are again missinterpreting power levels and statements in the story. The new fusion dance didn't make Gotenks more powerful as in increasing his powerlevel. He is just a better fighter now, because he basically has no time limit and fuse and defuse at will. So "regular" adult Gotenks SSJ3 is also way stronger than kid Gotenks back in the days. He might have surpassed Gohan by a great margin, since during his fight with Zen Buu it was stated that they fight at Vegetto's level (even Vegetto SSJ1 would be way above Gohan). But as Gotenks is clearly a fusion, he has nothing to do with our actual discussion about Cell. Also Bra is not "only a relatively small amount beyond peak SS3 tier when she's maxed out in her SS2". She is almost as strong as Vegetto SSJ1. Again I recommend you to look that up in Salagir's tier list. But she is also not relevant to the discussion.
In DBZ the greater power level always makes you kind of invulnerable to attacks from minor fighters. If we want to take Cell as a reference, there are plenty of examples: Piccolo firing his strongest attack at him and he came out without a scratch though he didn't even block; C16 smashing his face (semi perfekt Cell) and doing nothing; Kuririn attacking perfect Cell and he does not even notice ... So if Cell has a power level that is high enough, there is no chance for Vegeta to win this. And also your assumption, that Vegeta would be automatically at a peak SSJ3 level if he had a similar transformation - just because he was at the peak SSJ2 level - is just wrong. He may be stronger than U13 Vegeta, but he would never reach the same level as Goku (not to speak of kid Gotenks) if he did not master the transformation. Teen Gohan was at the peak of SSJ1, even stronger than Goku, and still was just almost the lowest SSJ2 we have ever seen, undersold only by himself 7 years later.
I don't say that it is impossible for Vegeta to win, because his time to shine has yet to come. But he will have to pull every ace out of his gloves he can get. I don't see, how he could stand a single chance against this Cell, but the author is surely going to surprise us. It's just bullshit to assume that Vegeta could defeat Cell without a major asspull.
1. If Gohan is indeed the absolute maximum that a non-fused fighter can can (Excepting Bra's weird genetics or Broly being Legendary) then yes, Neither Goku, Cell or Vegeta could surpass him. They could however get close to him, which is what i'm saying. Cell can get all the Zenkai's he wants, but he will never exceed Gohan since thats any characters limit that cant fuse, or is Majin Buu. Cell even states after his 2nd Zenkai that it's still 'not enough'. Clearly the majin boost he is currently recieving is what is pushing him to match Gohan. When he loses that power boost after the rebellion he'll be well within Vegeta's ballpark. 2. I'm undoubtably sure that we'll loose the majin boost because DBM fans will cry foul if Cell only wins because he's had his power artificially boosted. Zenkai's are part of his nature, Majinisation isn't. Plus i think you're overestimating Cell's power, and the power Vegeta and Goku have gained in the 10 years since Buu saga and now. If hwe take the novels statement as fact- Vegeta using his full SS2 power is about equal to a new SS3, then it's quite logical that his SS3 (Or equivalent) is right at the top of the SS3 tier (Nearly Mystic level). 3. Actually it did double his power- Stated by Gotenks himself. He needed to be powered up since he was leagues below Zen Buu's current level. Giving him the a new fusion technique just by itself would have done nothing. As a kid he was roughly equal to Super Buu as a SS3, and while he's gained alot of power just being an adult, Buu is currently at Vegito SS2 levels, while Gotenks wouldn't even be able to take Base Vegito at the start of the tournament. Plus Goku as a SS3 was more powerful then you give him credit for- the only reason he didn't fight Super Buu was due to his previous reasons of 'not wanting to do all the work himself' He states multiple times throughout the Buu saga that he wants the younger generation to take over from him. To go back to the main point though- Cell can't surpass top tier SS3 (Mystic), neither can Goku as an SS3, or Vegeta as a SS3/secret transformation. Cell's power has been boosted through zenkais but not nearly as much as his initial one against Teen Gohan. Therfore it's entirely plausible that Vegeta and Cell are roughly equivalent in power, not that either one is way more powerful then the other. By now Goku and Vegeta with their full power will be right at the top of their Tier, along with Cell.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Feb 1, 2019 1:03:48 GMT
How much is Cell gaining from being chopped apart by lasers anyway? I remember people saying you get the boost only when you really think you're gonna die. Hard to believe Cell of all people would think Nedwook's lasers would off him so easily.
His zenkais in DBZ were due to things outside his control. I don't remember whether he got zenkais from being blasted by Vegeta and Goku, both of whom could've disintegrated him, but he did get a big one upon self-destruction.
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