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Post by Solus on Feb 1, 2019 19:58:16 GMT
How much is Cell gaining from being chopped apart by lasers anyway? I remember people saying you get the boost only when you really think you're gonna die. Hard to believe Cell of all people would think Nedwook's lasers would off him so easily. His zenkais in DBZ were due to things outside his control. I don't remember whether he got zenkais from being blasted by Vegeta and Goku, both of whom could've disintegrated him, but he did get a big one upon self-destruction. No-one actually knows, how Zenkais really work. It's always been a plot device to make a character as strong as the author needed them to be. The only time Cell got a recorded Zenkai in DBZ was after exploding. Vegeta said on Namek something like this: "If I beat myself up, it won't work." That's why Kuririn had to be the one to blast the hole into him. This led me to believe, that a Zenkai only kicks in, if the person in question is a) mortally wounded and b) fears death (because they would be in controll if they did it to themselves and thus not in fear of death). But that is only speculation. And it would not apply to Cell in DBM since I don't think he really was afraid of death either against Hildegarn or Nedwook. But then again he was torn apart in both cases which is far more than anyone else achieved so far. We simply can't count Goku's teleport kamehameha, because Cell should have died, if his head got blown up.
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Post by Solus on Feb 1, 2019 20:22:50 GMT
I disagree, because your logic is not consistent. Let's just assume that Gohan is the absolute maximum. That was stated in the Salagir Reference Thread. That would mean that neither Goku nor Vegeta could reach that level, ok? There is no contradiction in the comic to this point, so we also take it as given. But now we have a precedent where Cell is already at that very level of Gohan (and don't start with "Gohan held back", because I've disproved that already). Do you want to tell me, that he didn't get stronger the slightest bit after his second Zenkai? Do you assume, it did nothing more than to refresh his Ki? That is possible, but it would be the first time in DB history that something like that happened. And besides that Cell himself stated that he got stronger. So Cell exceeded Gohan definitely. What now?
2. How can you be "undoubtably" sure, he does lose the buff when we have no precedent in the DB story that someone can lose that buff at all? I repeat myself for the fifth time or so, but we just don't know if Vegeta kept the strength he gained from the possession. But even if Cell lost the boost (of which we still don't know how big it was - again repeating myself), there is such a huge gap from SSJ3 to Mystic Gohan, that Vegeta even on level 3 wouldn't stand a chance. Cell had not only to lose the Majin Boost but also both of his Zenkais to fall back to level 3. That is a bit much to hope, I think. And I also think that you are vastly missjudging power levels in the Buu Saga. Gotenks SSJ1 was already as strong as Goku SSJ3, if not stronger. That's why Goku taught them the fusion. He didn't know that they would be able to pull SSJ3. But as Gotenks SSJ3 and Buu were on par you see the difference between Goku and Buu which was also acknowledged by Goku when he told Vegeta that fighting Buu (Super Buu for clarification) would be suicide. So Buu Saga Gotenks SSJ3 should be at the top in a SSJ3 tier. And as you can read in the Salagir Reference Thread , the author if DBM sees it the exact same way. Gohan is above SSJ3 tier. Actually way above. And so is Cell now.
3. Here you are again missinterpreting power levels and statements in the story. The new fusion dance didn't make Gotenks more powerful as in increasing his powerlevel. He is just a better fighter now, because he basically has no time limit and fuse and defuse at will. So "regular" adult Gotenks SSJ3 is also way stronger than kid Gotenks back in the days. He might have surpassed Gohan by a great margin, since during his fight with Zen Buu it was stated that they fight at Vegetto's level (even Vegetto SSJ1 would be way above Gohan). But as Gotenks is clearly a fusion, he has nothing to do with our actual discussion about Cell. Also Bra is not "only a relatively small amount beyond peak SS3 tier when she's maxed out in her SS2". She is almost as strong as Vegetto SSJ1. Again I recommend you to look that up in Salagir's tier list. But she is also not relevant to the discussion.
In DBZ the greater power level always makes you kind of invulnerable to attacks from minor fighters. If we want to take Cell as a reference, there are plenty of examples: Piccolo firing his strongest attack at him and he came out without a scratch though he didn't even block; C16 smashing his face (semi perfekt Cell) and doing nothing; Kuririn attacking perfect Cell and he does not even notice ... So if Cell has a power level that is high enough, there is no chance for Vegeta to win this. And also your assumption, that Vegeta would be automatically at a peak SSJ3 level if he had a similar transformation - just because he was at the peak SSJ2 level - is just wrong. He may be stronger than U13 Vegeta, but he would never reach the same level as Goku (not to speak of kid Gotenks) if he did not master the transformation. Teen Gohan was at the peak of SSJ1, even stronger than Goku, and still was just almost the lowest SSJ2 we have ever seen, undersold only by himself 7 years later.
I don't say that it is impossible for Vegeta to win, because his time to shine has yet to come. But he will have to pull every ace out of his gloves he can get. I don't see, how he could stand a single chance against this Cell, but the author is surely going to surprise us. It's just bullshit to assume that Vegeta could defeat Cell without a major asspull.
1. If Gohan is indeed the absolute maximum that a non-fused fighter can can (Excepting Bra's weird genetics or Broly being Legendary) then yes, Neither Goku, Cell or Vegeta could surpass him. They could however get close to him, which is what i'm saying. Cell can get all the Zenkai's he wants, but he will never exceed Gohan since thats any characters limit that cant fuse, or is Majin Buu. Cell even states after his 2nd Zenkai that it's still 'not enough'. Clearly the majin boost he is currently recieving is what is pushing him to match Gohan. When he loses that power boost after the rebellion he'll be well within Vegeta's ballpark. 2. I'm undoubtably sure that we'll loose the majin boost because DBM fans will cry foul if Cell only wins because he's had his power artificially boosted. Zenkai's are part of his nature, Majinisation isn't. Plus i think you're overestimating Cell's power, and the power Vegeta and Goku have gained in the 10 years since Buu saga and now. If hwe take the novels statement as fact- Vegeta using his full SS2 power is about equal to a new SS3, then it's quite logical that his SS3 (Or equivalent) is right at the top of the SS3 tier (Nearly Mystic level). 3. Actually it did double his power- Stated by Gotenks himself. He needed to be powered up since he was leagues below Zen Buu's current level. Giving him the a new fusion technique just by itself would have done nothing. As a kid he was roughly equal to Super Buu as a SS3, and while he's gained alot of power just being an adult, Buu is currently at Vegito SS2 levels, while Gotenks wouldn't even be able to take Base Vegito at the start of the tournament. Plus Goku as a SS3 was more powerful then you give him credit for- the only reason he didn't fight Super Buu was due to his previous reasons of 'not wanting to do all the work himself' He states multiple times throughout the Buu saga that he wants the younger generation to take over from him. To go back to the main point though- Cell can't surpass top tier SS3 (Mystic), neither can Goku as an SS3, or Vegeta as a SS3/secret transformation. Cell's power has been boosted through zenkais but not nearly as much as his initial one against Teen Gohan. Therfore it's entirely plausible that Vegeta and Cell are roughly equivalent in power, not that either one is way more powerful then the other. By now Goku and Vegeta with their full power will be right at the top of their Tier, along with Cell.
First of all: Mystic is not top tier SSJ3! How do you ignore that fact so persistently? I don't know how you can value your own head canon so much higher than what the author of the comic explicitly stated. If you want to discuss in the DBZ section you are free to believe what you want. But as we are talking about DBM you have to accept the rules that Salagir made. I even gave you the source of those statements. Claiming top tier SSJ 3 is equal to mystic is the same as saying top tier SSJ1 (aka pre suicide perfect Cell) is equal to SSJ2. It clearly is not. And you can even compare them perfectly since Buu and Gotenks were top tier SSJ3 and then came Gohan and wiped the floor with Buu exactly like he did with Cell as a SSJ2. Please don't get that mixed up.
First bold part: Cell states that after his fight against Hildegarn, which was his first Zenkai in the tournament. Here he clearly states, that he got stronger. No mention of "not being enough".
second bold: You're just repeating yourself and you seem to be oblivious that I already debunked this. Mastering one level does not automatically mean mastering the next, too.
third bold: That's absolutely your head canon. There have been multiple discussions in several forums with many references to the DBZ manga that show that this is simply not true. Yes, Goku wanted to let the next generation take over, but that doesn't mean that he was not eager to fight himself. There is plenty of proof that Goku was not able to defeat Fat Buu despite him stating that he might have been able to do so, maybe. And there is absolutely no doubt that he had not a single chance against Super Buu. If we take Cell games levels as a metaphor Super Buu would be perfekt Cell, Mystic Gohan would be Gohan SSJ2 and Goku SSJ3 would be like Super Vegeta.
Last bold: If you can't or don't want to understand all the things I said above, I can see, why you think this way. So there is no point in arguing about that any more. I suggest, we stopp here and now and let the story surprise us. I will be the first to admit, when I was wrong. But given all the facts (not the hints) we have up till now, I can only come to one conclusion.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Feb 1, 2019 22:51:48 GMT
1. If Gohan is indeed the absolute maximum that a non-fused fighter can can (Excepting Bra's weird genetics or Broly being Legendary) then yes, Neither Goku, Cell or Vegeta could surpass him. They could however get close to him, which is what i'm saying. Cell can get all the Zenkai's he wants, but he will never exceed Gohan since thats any characters limit that cant fuse, or is Majin Buu. Cell even states after his 2nd Zenkai that it's still 'not enough'. Clearly the majin boost he is currently recieving is what is pushing him to match Gohan. When he loses that power boost after the rebellion he'll be well within Vegeta's ballpark. 2. I'm undoubtably sure that we'll loose the majin boost because DBM fans will cry foul if Cell only wins because he's had his power artificially boosted. Zenkai's are part of his nature, Majinisation isn't. Plus i think you're overestimating Cell's power, and the power Vegeta and Goku have gained in the 10 years since Buu saga and now. If hwe take the novels statement as fact- Vegeta using his full SS2 power is about equal to a new SS3, then it's quite logical that his SS3 (Or equivalent) is right at the top of the SS3 tier (Nearly Mystic level). 3. Actually it did double his power- Stated by Gotenks himself. He needed to be powered up since he was leagues below Zen Buu's current level. Giving him the a new fusion technique just by itself would have done nothing. As a kid he was roughly equal to Super Buu as a SS3, and while he's gained alot of power just being an adult, Buu is currently at Vegito SS2 levels, while Gotenks wouldn't even be able to take Base Vegito at the start of the tournament. Plus Goku as a SS3 was more powerful then you give him credit for- the only reason he didn't fight Super Buu was due to his previous reasons of 'not wanting to do all the work himself' He states multiple times throughout the Buu saga that he wants the younger generation to take over from him. To go back to the main point though- Cell can't surpass top tier SS3 (Mystic), neither can Goku as an SS3, or Vegeta as a SS3/secret transformation. Cell's power has been boosted through zenkais but not nearly as much as his initial one against Teen Gohan. Therfore it's entirely plausible that Vegeta and Cell are roughly equivalent in power, not that either one is way more powerful then the other. By now Goku and Vegeta with their full power will be right at the top of their Tier, along with Cell.
First of all: Mystic is not top tier SSJ3! How do you ignore that fact so persistently? I don't know how you can value your own head canon so much higher than what the author of the comic explicitly stated. If you want to discuss in the DBZ section you are free to believe what you want. But as we are talking about DBM you have to accept the rules that Salagir made. I even gave you the source of those statements. Claiming top tier SSJ 3 is equal to mystic is the same as saying top tier SSJ1 (aka pre suicide perfect Cell) is equal to SSJ2. It clearly is not. And you can even compare them perfectly since Buu and Gotenks were top tier SSJ3 and then came Gohan and wiped the floor with Buu exactly like he did with Cell as a SSJ2. Please don't get that mixed up.
First bold part: Cell states that after his fight against Hildegarn, which was his first Zenkai in the tournament. Here he clearly states, that he got stronger. No mention of "not being enough".
second bold: You're just repeating yourself and you seem to be oblivious that I already debunked this. Mastering one level does not automatically mean mastering the next, too.
third bold: That's absolutely your head canon. There have been multiple discussions in several forums with many references to the DBZ manga that show that this is simply not true. Yes, Goku wanted to let the next generation take over, but that doesn't mean that he was not eager to fight himself. There is plenty of proof that Goku was not able to defeat Fat Buu despite him stating that he might have been able to do so, maybe. And there is absolutely no doubt that he had not a single chance against Super Buu. If we take Cell games levels as a metaphor Super Buu would be perfekt Cell, Mystic Gohan would be Gohan SSJ2 and Goku SSJ3 would be like Super Vegeta.
Last bold: If you can't or don't want to understand all the things I said above, I can see, why you think this way. So there is no point in arguing about that any more. I suggest, we stopp here and now and let the story surprise us. I will be the first to admit, when I was wrong. But given all the facts (not the hints) we have up till now, I can only come to one conclusion.
Ok, i see how you think that Gohan as Mystic is in a tier of his own. I know salagir has him as a seperate tier, comparing him to DBZ-era SS3 Goku. I don't accept that logic, so we'll just leave it at that. Salagir has also stated that 2 characters can be on the same tier, yet have much different powerlevels which is how i'm treating these characters- Super Buu, Gotenks, Goku, Base Vegito and Gohan were all SS3 tier, but obviously they were all at different levels of power. For what it's worth i think the only poople that were beyond SS3 tier were Buutenks, Buuhan, and SS1 Vegito. Your other points: 1. You are correct, i mixed up my Zenkai's. However i still maintain my original point that there's no way Cell's gaining as much power from Zenkais during the tournament as he did from his initial one against Teen Gohan. If he did then he'd be one of the strongest persons within this tournament. 2. You didn't debunk anything, you just disagreed with my logic that if Vegeta is a top-tier SS2, if he was to transform again he'd be a top tier SS3. Easily able to face Cell. Plus what i said also correlates to his SS1 power- In the novel when he fights Kakarot it is stated that Kakarot is able to produce a kamehameha nearly as powerful as powered-up perfect Cell's against Teen Gohan. Vegeta's SS1 was stated to be even higher then Kakarots, therefore making him a top-tier SS1. So top tier SS1=Top tier SS2= Top tier SS3. The logic is not hard to follow. OF course you are correct in saying that we haven't seen Vegeta's full power once, so i could be over-estimating him but the hints suggest that he will be much stronger then he was during the Buu saga. 3. It may be head canon, but there's enough evidence throughout the manga and the anime that it is a possibility. Consider- Goku played around with fat buu while waiting for the boys to fuse, he also knows that his time on Earth is limited and SS3 drains that time. Hard to be a guardian of Earth when you're dead. Another example- When Goahn drops the ball against Super Buu and lets SS3 Gotenks get absorbed, Goku has to come back and puts up a fight against Buutenks about the same as Gohan did. They both would have lost but the power comparison is there. When Gotenks de-fuses Goku realises that Buu is beatable again and states that Gohan can win now. Notice he doesn't fight himself, he only did to hold Buutenks off. He also fights Buuhan with Vegeta, but only because Vegeta refuses to fuse and they have to fight to survive. Finally- on the Kai's planet Goku states that he could have defeated Fat Buu 'easily' but knows he won't always be around so he wants the younger generation to step up. This isn't DBS where he gets rocketted back into main character status and has to fight everyone. Yes, i realise that some of those scenes are from the anime, but i consider it to be just as reliable material as the manga. That is my opinion and i'm sticking to it. Finally- Yes their are things we've seen (Cell fighting Gohan on equal footing), and things that have only been hinted (Vegeta's and Goku's max power), let's see where the rest of the story takes us and see who is right. For the record though i don't think Cell could ever win the tournament (Not that i think we'll get to the final anyhow)
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Post by Solus on Feb 1, 2019 23:55:44 GMT
First of all: Mystic is not top tier SSJ3! How do you ignore that fact so persistently? I don't know how you can value your own head canon so much higher than what the author of the comic explicitly stated. If you want to discuss in the DBZ section you are free to believe what you want. But as we are talking about DBM you have to accept the rules that Salagir made. I even gave you the source of those statements. Claiming top tier SSJ 3 is equal to mystic is the same as saying top tier SSJ1 (aka pre suicide perfect Cell) is equal to SSJ2. It clearly is not. And you can even compare them perfectly since Buu and Gotenks were top tier SSJ3 and then came Gohan and wiped the floor with Buu exactly like he did with Cell as a SSJ2. Please don't get that mixed up.
First bold part: Cell states that after his fight against Hildegarn, which was his first Zenkai in the tournament. Here he clearly states, that he got stronger. No mention of "not being enough".
second bold: You're just repeating yourself and you seem to be oblivious that I already debunked this. Mastering one level does not automatically mean mastering the next, too.
third bold: That's absolutely your head canon. There have been multiple discussions in several forums with many references to the DBZ manga that show that this is simply not true. Yes, Goku wanted to let the next generation take over, but that doesn't mean that he was not eager to fight himself. There is plenty of proof that Goku was not able to defeat Fat Buu despite him stating that he might have been able to do so, maybe. And there is absolutely no doubt that he had not a single chance against Super Buu. If we take Cell games levels as a metaphor Super Buu would be perfekt Cell, Mystic Gohan would be Gohan SSJ2 and Goku SSJ3 would be like Super Vegeta.
Last bold: If you can't or don't want to understand all the things I said above, I can see, why you think this way. So there is no point in arguing about that any more. I suggest, we stopp here and now and let the story surprise us. I will be the first to admit, when I was wrong. But given all the facts (not the hints) we have up till now, I can only come to one conclusion.
Ok, i see how you think that Gohan as Mystic is in a tier of his own. I know salagir has him as a seperate tier, comparing him to DBZ-era SS3 Goku. I don't accept that logic, so we'll just leave it at that. Salagir has also stated that 2 characters can be on the same tier, yet have much different powerlevels which is how i'm treating these characters- Super Buu, Gotenks, Goku, Base Vegito and Gohan were all SS3 tier, but obviously they were all at different levels of power. For what it's worth i think the only poople that were beyond SS3 tier were Buutenks, Buuhan, and SS1 Vegito. Your other points: 1. You are correct, i mixed up my Zenkai's. However i still maintain my original point that there's no way Cell's gaining as much power from Zenkais during the tournament as he did from his initial one against Teen Gohan. If he did then he'd be one of the strongest persons within this tournament. 2. You didn't debunk anything, you just disagreed with my logic that if Vegeta is a top-tier SS2, if he was to transform again he'd be a top tier SS3. Easily able to face Cell. Plus what i said also correlates to his SS1 power- In the novel when he fights Kakarot it is stated that Kakarot is able to produce a kamehameha nearly as powerful as powered-up perfect Cell's against Teen Gohan. Vegeta's SS1 was stated to be even higher then Kakarots, therefore making him a top-tier SS1. So top tier SS1=Top tier SS2= Top tier SS3. The logic is not hard to follow. OF course you are correct in saying that we haven't seen Vegeta's full power once, so i could be over-estimating him but the hints suggest that he will be much stronger then he was during the Buu saga. 3. It may be head canon, but there's enough evidence throughout the manga and the anime that it is a possibility. Consider- Goku played around with fat buu while waiting for the boys to fuse, he also knows that his time on Earth is limited and SS3 drains that time. Hard to be a guardian of Earth when you're dead. Another example- When Goahn drops the ball against Super Buu and lets SS3 Gotenks get absorbed, Goku has to come back and puts up a fight against Buutenks about the same as Gohan did. They both would have lost but the power comparison is there. When Gotenks de-fuses Goku realises that Buu is beatable again and states that Gohan can win now. Notice he doesn't fight himself, he only did to hold Buutenks off. He also fights Buuhan with Vegeta, but only because Vegeta refuses to fuse and they have to fight to survive. Finally- on the Kai's planet Goku states that he could have defeated Fat Buu 'easily' but knows he won't always be around so he wants the younger generation to step up. This isn't DBS where he gets rocketted back into main character status and has to fight everyone. Yes, i realise that some of those scenes are from the anime, but i consider it to be just as reliable material as the manga. That is my opinion and i'm sticking to it. Finally- Yes their are things we've seen (Cell fighting Gohan on equal footing), and things that have only been hinted (Vegeta's and Goku's max power), let's see where the rest of the story takes us and see who is right. For the record though i don't think Cell could ever win the tournament (Not that i think we'll get to the final anyhow) About that whole third point: I don't want to insult you and I suppose that you don't take it that way either. I'm glad, we can discuss this matter as civilized as we do. But I think, the point is, that you are in the wrong forum. Taking the anime as a reference - even when the translation is obviously wrong (like in Goku stating that he "could have defeated Fat Buu 'easily'") is the same as taking DBS as a reference and shouting out that Vegetto could not exist. This is DBM and here count the rules Salagir makes. If we want to speculate about some future events, we have to take Salagir's rules and statements as a base for our thoughts. Otherwise we cannot get to a result, that matches what was established in the story. Everything you talked about in that third paragraph is exclusively anime material, which is not canon to DBM if it contradicts the manga which it clearly does in all cases.
And your logic only works backward. Not forward. If Vegeta is absolute high level SSJ2 tier, then he is definitely also absolute high SSJ1 tier. But not the other way around. See Teen Gohan. He was the strongest recorded SSJ1 and at the same moment still only in the lower SSJ2 tier. I also believe, that there are some serious shenanigans going on for Vegeta U18 to be almost as strong as Vegeta U13 SSJ3. This is no normal SSJ2 but must be something to unleash more power. But this is my speculation, I can't tell for sure.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 2, 2019 0:30:00 GMT
VoidSlayerSolusJust a quick intermission, I won't take long since I've already said what I needed around these slightly derailed offtopics (may do a more detailed post later): This "Goku wanted the next generation to have a challenge" does not apply at later (Super Buu) stages since that entire next generation was absorbed and now formed part of Buu. So if Goku did not want to fight Super Buu (with Vegeta nonetheless) it doesn't mean he wanted to give the kids a challenge (since they were dead/absorbed). It means he genuinely was scared shitless of Super Buu.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2019 4:38:08 GMT
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Post by VoidSlayer on Feb 2, 2019 6:03:38 GMT
Ok, i see how you think that Gohan as Mystic is in a tier of his own. I know salagir has him as a seperate tier, comparing him to DBZ-era SS3 Goku. I don't accept that logic, so we'll just leave it at that. Salagir has also stated that 2 characters can be on the same tier, yet have much different powerlevels which is how i'm treating these characters- Super Buu, Gotenks, Goku, Base Vegito and Gohan were all SS3 tier, but obviously they were all at different levels of power. For what it's worth i think the only poople that were beyond SS3 tier were Buutenks, Buuhan, and SS1 Vegito. Your other points: 1. You are correct, i mixed up my Zenkai's. However i still maintain my original point that there's no way Cell's gaining as much power from Zenkais during the tournament as he did from his initial one against Teen Gohan. If he did then he'd be one of the strongest persons within this tournament. 2. You didn't debunk anything, you just disagreed with my logic that if Vegeta is a top-tier SS2, if he was to transform again he'd be a top tier SS3. Easily able to face Cell. Plus what i said also correlates to his SS1 power- In the novel when he fights Kakarot it is stated that Kakarot is able to produce a kamehameha nearly as powerful as powered-up perfect Cell's against Teen Gohan. Vegeta's SS1 was stated to be even higher then Kakarots, therefore making him a top-tier SS1. So top tier SS1=Top tier SS2= Top tier SS3. The logic is not hard to follow. OF course you are correct in saying that we haven't seen Vegeta's full power once, so i could be over-estimating him but the hints suggest that he will be much stronger then he was during the Buu saga. 3. It may be head canon, but there's enough evidence throughout the manga and the anime that it is a possibility. Consider- Goku played around with fat buu while waiting for the boys to fuse, he also knows that his time on Earth is limited and SS3 drains that time. Hard to be a guardian of Earth when you're dead. Another example- When Goahn drops the ball against Super Buu and lets SS3 Gotenks get absorbed, Goku has to come back and puts up a fight against Buutenks about the same as Gohan did. They both would have lost but the power comparison is there. When Gotenks de-fuses Goku realises that Buu is beatable again and states that Gohan can win now. Notice he doesn't fight himself, he only did to hold Buutenks off. He also fights Buuhan with Vegeta, but only because Vegeta refuses to fuse and they have to fight to survive. Finally- on the Kai's planet Goku states that he could have defeated Fat Buu 'easily' but knows he won't always be around so he wants the younger generation to step up. This isn't DBS where he gets rocketted back into main character status and has to fight everyone. Yes, i realise that some of those scenes are from the anime, but i consider it to be just as reliable material as the manga. That is my opinion and i'm sticking to it. Finally- Yes their are things we've seen (Cell fighting Gohan on equal footing), and things that have only been hinted (Vegeta's and Goku's max power), let's see where the rest of the story takes us and see who is right. For the record though i don't think Cell could ever win the tournament (Not that i think we'll get to the final anyhow) About that whole third point: I don't want to insult you and I suppose that you don't take it that way either. I'm glad, we can discuss this matter as civilized as we do. But I think, the point is, that you are in the wrong forum. Taking the anime as a reference - even when the translation is obviously wrong (like in Goku stating that he "could have defeated Fat Buu 'easily'") is the same as taking DBS as a reference and shouting out that Vegetto could not exist. This is DBM and here count the rules Salagir makes. If we want to speculate about some future events, we have to take Salagir's rules and statements as a base for our thoughts. Otherwise we cannot get to a result, that matches what was established in the story. Everything you talked about in that third paragraph is exclusively anime material, which is not canon to DBM if it contradicts the manga which it clearly does in all cases. And your logic only works backward. Not forward. If Vegeta is absolute high level SSJ2 tier, then he is definitely also absolute high SSJ1 tier. But not the other way around. See Teen Gohan. He was the strongest recorded SSJ1 and at the same moment still only in the lower SSJ2 tier. I also believe, that there are some serious shenanigans going on for Vegeta U18 to be almost as strong as Vegeta U13 SSJ3. This is no normal SSJ2 but must be something to unleash more power. But this is my speculation, I can't tell for sure.
Maybe, maybe not. I still think it's a prime example of Goku not ending a opponent when he could have because he didn't want to be the savior all the time. That counts even for the end of the Cell saga- how he didn't want to be wished back since he was always attracting the bad guys. I get that DBM primarily uses Manga material over anime, but there's enough leeway for my interpretation to be possible. You would be correct if Vegeta and Goku had only discovered the next level of transformation relatively recently. Goku at least has had SS3 for over a decade using DBMs timeframe. Are you saying that he has not improved/increased/mastered that form in the decade since he discovered it? Obviously with Vegeta's so called 'Secret transformation' we have absolutley nothing to go on as we have no idea what this form looks like and what it will do. But if he discvovered it sometime between the end of the Buu saga and now, then he would have had penty of time to train it up. We're most likely going to have to wait untill his fight with Cell to come up before we know for sure. Keeping this debate within topic, since i believe it's true to state (even if you don't agree that Gohan is a top SS3 but something more) that Cell is likely only matching Gohan because of his majin boost, not through the increases he's gotten from zenkais, which i believe would offer diminishing returns since Cell is: 1. not taking nearly as much damage to recover from as he did when he blew himself up 2. Reaching his limits of power, so even being demolished into tiny pieces and regenerating would not offer the increase in power it did when first used. Any way that you frame this question, i believe that only very special circumstances/characters can improve beyond SS3/Mystic, those being: Majin Buu, Vegito, Broly, and to a lesser extent, Bra. Therefore meaning that anyone in the final 8 could match or surpass Cell's maximum power, so while it would be a surprise i can't see him winning the tournament. In fact i think this mini-comic says it best:
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Post by Solus on Feb 2, 2019 12:15:52 GMT
To summarize my thoughts on the topic: I do think that Cell is the strongest contestant in the left bracket. So he could make it to the finals. But without another major power-up he is outclassed by the other contestants of the right bracket. Maybe not by Gast, I'm not sure yet if he really is as strong as Gohan, but at least by Bra (who in SSJ2 is almost as strong as SSJ Vegetto) and Buu, of course. Don't know about XXI. He is really a dark horse. But storywise I don't see a way for a character like Cell to make it to the finals and fight an OC that is evil. Unless XXI wins that fight and his wish is what makes all the other fighters unite against him. In that case it wouldn't matter who his opponent was. And I also could imagine, that his fights are kept short until the tournament is over.
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Post by Axalon on Feb 4, 2019 1:01:03 GMT
SolusOh yeah, the entire right side of the bracket is so stacked with the DBM OCs it isn't even funny. Any one of them, save perhaps Gast as the weakest of the bunch, could take on the ENTIRE left side of the bracket and likely win singlehandedly. I think Cell could edge out a win over Gast at this current point, but assuming he goes all the way on his side of the bracket he gets absolutely crushed the way it is now with opponents like Bra and Zen Buu on the other side.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Feb 4, 2019 4:34:38 GMT
Solus Oh yeah, the entire right side of the bracket is so stacked with the DBM OCs it isn't even funny. Any one of them, save perhaps Gast as the weakest of the bunch, could take on the ENTIRE left side of the bracket and likely win singlehandedly. I think Cell could edge out a win over Gast at this current point, but assuming he goes all the way on his side of the bracket he gets absolutely crushed the way it is now with opponents like Bra and Zen Buu on the other side. Dude, i think you're over estimating the lefties. Gast is probably around equal to everyone except Uub, who's most likely the weakest out of everyone left. Buu of course is the undisputed most powerful being left, and would likely win against the other 7 without being too inconvienced. Bra is only more powerful if she goes SS2, which she can't control well. Even if she did i'd say a 2 on 1 would likely be pretty even. XXI is hard to place, since we haven't seen him fight. It's gunna be good when/if we do though
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Post by Solus on Feb 4, 2019 22:44:01 GMT
Solus Oh yeah, the entire right side of the bracket is so stacked with the DBM OCs it isn't even funny. Any one of them, save perhaps Gast as the weakest of the bunch, could take on the ENTIRE left side of the bracket and likely win singlehandedly. I think Cell could edge out a win over Gast at this current point, but assuming he goes all the way on his side of the bracket he gets absolutely crushed the way it is now with opponents like Bra and Zen Buu on the other side. Dude, i think you're over estimating the lefties. Gast is probably around equal to everyone except Uub, who's most likely the weakest out of everyone left. Buu of course is the undisputed most powerful being left, and would likely win against the other 7 without being too inconvienced. Bra is only more powerful if she goes SS2, which she can't control well. Even if she did i'd say a 2 on 1 would likely be pretty even. XXI is hard to place, since we haven't seen him fight. It's gunna be good when/if we do though Are you implying that Bra SSJ2 is stronger than Buu? Really? Just in case, I understood that right: Bra is about as strong as SSJ Vegetto. Buu is at least as strong as Vegetto SSJ2. As stated by Salagir in his tier list.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 4, 2019 22:49:22 GMT
Dude, i think you're over estimating the lefties. Gast is probably around equal to everyone except Uub, who's most likely the weakest out of everyone left. Buu of course is the undisputed most powerful being left, and would likely win against the other 7 without being too inconvienced. Bra is only more powerful if she goes SS2, which she can't control well. Even if she did i'd say a 2 on 1 would likely be pretty even. XXI is hard to place, since we haven't seen him fight. It's gunna be good when/if we do though Are you implying that Bra SSJ2 is stronger than Buu? Really? Just in case, I understood that right: Bra is about as strong as SSJ Vegetto. Buu is at least as strong as Vegetto SSJ2. As stated by Salagir in his tier list. No. What he is saying is he thinks Bra is only stronger than the people on the right side of the brackets when she goes SS2 (although I disagree with it).
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Post by Axalon on Feb 5, 2019 1:00:52 GMT
Solus Oh yeah, the entire right side of the bracket is so stacked with the DBM OCs it isn't even funny. Any one of them, save perhaps Gast as the weakest of the bunch, could take on the ENTIRE left side of the bracket and likely win singlehandedly. I think Cell could edge out a win over Gast at this current point, but assuming he goes all the way on his side of the bracket he gets absolutely crushed the way it is now with opponents like Bra and Zen Buu on the other side. Dude, i think you're over estimating the lefties. Gast is probably around equal to everyone except Uub, who's most likely the weakest out of everyone left. Buu of course is the undisputed most powerful being left, and would likely win against the other 7 without being too inconvienced. Bra is only more powerful if she goes SS2, which she can't control well. Even if she did i'd say a 2 on 1 would likely be pretty even. XXI is hard to place, since we haven't seen him fight. It's gunna be good when/if we do though Overestimating them? I have no idea where you got that from since I said anyone on the right hand side could crush all of the left side members at the same time, with possibly Gast being the exception as the weakest of the right hand bracket side.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 2:34:50 GMT
SolusOh yeah, the entire right side of the bracket is so stacked with the DBM OCs it isn't even funny. Any one of them, save perhaps Gast as the weakest of the bunch, could take on the ENTIRE left side of the bracket and likely win singlehandedly. I think Cell could edge out a win over Gast at this current point, but assuming he goes all the way on his side of the bracket he gets absolutely crushed the way it is now with opponents like Bra and Zen Buu on the other side.
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Post by Axalon on Feb 5, 2019 2:37:29 GMT
Solus Oh yeah, the entire right side of the bracket is so stacked with the DBM OCs it isn't even funny. Any one of them, save perhaps Gast as the weakest of the bunch, could take on the ENTIRE left side of the bracket and likely win singlehandedly. I think Cell could edge out a win over Gast at this current point, but assuming he goes all the way on his side of the bracket he gets absolutely crushed the way it is now with opponents like Bra and Zen Buu on the other side.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Feb 5, 2019 4:02:12 GMT
Dude, i think you're over estimating the lefties. Gast is probably around equal to everyone except Uub, who's most likely the weakest out of everyone left. Buu of course is the undisputed most powerful being left, and would likely win against the other 7 without being too inconvienced. Bra is only more powerful if she goes SS2, which she can't control well. Even if she did i'd say a 2 on 1 would likely be pretty even. XXI is hard to place, since we haven't seen him fight. It's gunna be good when/if we do though Are you implying that Bra SSJ2 is stronger than Buu? Really? Just in case, I understood that right: Bra is about as strong as SSJ Vegetto. Buu is at least as strong as Vegetto SSJ2. As stated by Salagir in his tier list. Are you implying that Bra SSJ2 is stronger than Buu? Really? Just in case, I understood that right: Bra is about as strong as SSJ Vegetto. Buu is at least as strong as Vegetto SSJ2. As stated by Salagir in his tier list. No. What he is saying is he thinks Bra is only stronger than the people on the right side of the brackets when she goes SS2 (although I disagree with it). Dude, i think you're over estimating the lefties. Gast is probably around equal to everyone except Uub, who's most likely the weakest out of everyone left. Buu of course is the undisputed most powerful being left, and would likely win against the other 7 without being too inconvienced. Bra is only more powerful if she goes SS2, which she can't control well. Even if she did i'd say a 2 on 1 would likely be pretty even. XXI is hard to place, since we haven't seen him fight. It's gunna be good when/if we do though Overestimating them? I have no idea where you got that from since I said anyone on the right hand side could crush all of the left side members at the same time, with possibly Gast being the exception as the weakest of the right hand bracket side. Oops, i meant the righties, you're overestimating the righties. At least some of them. For what it's worth i only think Buu could beat the entire left side single handily. Gast would be roughly equal to Cell, Goku and Vegeta. XXI is so far undocumented in terms of strength feats so i think he'd actually struggle if he had to face more then one opponent at the same time, without preparation. Bra's stronger then any one, but if she had to go 2 on 1 i think she'd struggle. Son PanSolusI switched my sides, forget that previous post. Bra as an SS2 would be the 2nd strongest person out of the remaining top 8. But Buu would likely beat everyone combined. Although i'd like to see them all going at it. That would be a battle royale moment!
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Post by Axalon on Feb 5, 2019 4:16:08 GMT
Oops, i meant the righties, you're overestimating the righties. At least some of them. For what it's worth i only think Buu could beat the entire left side single handily. Gast would be roughly equal to Cell, Goku and Vegeta. XXI is so far undocumented in terms of strength feats so i think he'd actually struggle if he had to face more then one opponent at the same time, without preparation. Bra's stronger then any one, but if she had to go 2 on 1 i think she'd struggle. Well yeah, I said Gast was the weakest of the bunch and said Cell could probably take him at this point. But the other three I'm pretty confident on. Buu is amazingly OP, Bra is up to SS1 Vegito levels, which for the purposes of fighting the left-hand side is also amazingly OP, and XXI we don't have much of anything on, true, but he's been built up so much I can't believe he won't deliver unless salagir is going to pull a Last Jedi and try and subvert our expectations.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Feb 5, 2019 4:30:06 GMT
Oops, i meant the righties, you're overestimating the righties. At least some of them. For what it's worth i only think Buu could beat the entire left side single handily. Gast would be roughly equal to Cell, Goku and Vegeta. XXI is so far undocumented in terms of strength feats so i think he'd actually struggle if he had to face more then one opponent at the same time, without preparation. Bra's stronger then any one, but if she had to go 2 on 1 i think she'd struggle. Well yeah, I said Gast was the weakest of the bunch and said Cell could probably take him at this point. But the other three I'm pretty confident on. Buu is amazingly OP, Bra is up to SS1 Vegito levels, which for the purposes of fighting the left-hand side is also amazingly OP, and XXI we don't have much of anything on, true, but he's been built up so much I can't believe he won't deliver unless salagir is going to pull a Last Jedi and try and subvert our expectations. I agreed with you on that one, i just confused either side of the bracket in a moment of blatant stupidity. Bra's close to SS1 Vegito levels, and even then it's stated in the novel that he doesn't even have to use half his power in that form to beat her SS2. So if you had 2 near Mystic level opponents facing her i think she'd have a hard time. If you had all 4 lefties fight her i'd say she'd go down pretty hard- UUb's Fat Buu tier (approx) and the rest would be top SS3/Mystic) as for XXI i think it's hard to define because like Goku and Vegeta he hasn't shown any power feats that puts him in a specific tier. I mean he has to be strong, but we have no evidence to show exactly how strong he is in terms of combat power, since he's literally won his matches with magical tricks and is avoiding the current majin rebellion.
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Post by Solus on Feb 5, 2019 21:28:36 GMT
I just realized that of all contestants of the quarter finals Son Goku is the only one, who did not have a single fight. Actually we didn't see him fight in the present at all. Only in specials. I am not really sure which route Salagir is going to go with him. Will he really step back for the next generation like he said in Buu saga? Imagine Vegeta's face if Goku forfeits against Uub But then there is the question when Goku will finally go all out. As much as I like Uub, I can't believe with his current strength he would be able to defeat Goku. Even if the were on par (which would mean Goku didn't progress in the past twenty years AT ALL), he still lacks experience. I don't think his new found magic ability would make up for that. Then again, it would be glorious if Vegeta first complains about Goku losing to Uub and then loses himself against Cell. Otherwise we had Vegeta fight Uub which is a match I'm absolutely not interested in. Either way I'm curious in seing Goku actually doing something.
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Post by Axalon on Feb 6, 2019 1:50:28 GMT
Well yeah, I said Gast was the weakest of the bunch and said Cell could probably take him at this point. But the other three I'm pretty confident on. Buu is amazingly OP, Bra is up to SS1 Vegito levels, which for the purposes of fighting the left-hand side is also amazingly OP, and XXI we don't have much of anything on, true, but he's been built up so much I can't believe he won't deliver unless salagir is going to pull a Last Jedi and try and subvert our expectations. I agreed with you on that one, i just confused either side of the bracket in a moment of blatant stupidity. Bra's close to SS1 Vegito levels, and even then it's stated in the novel that he doesn't even have to use half his power in that form to beat her SS2. So if you had 2 near Mystic level opponents facing her i think she'd have a hard time. If you had all 4 lefties fight her i'd say she'd go down pretty hard- UUb's Fat Buu tier (approx) and the rest would be top SS3/Mystic) as for XXI i think it's hard to define because like Goku and Vegeta he hasn't shown any power feats that puts him in a specific tier. I mean he has to be strong, but we have no evidence to show exactly how strong he is in terms of combat power, since he's literally won his matches with magical tricks and is avoiding the current majin rebellion. What opponents would these be? We've got Cell and...that's about it. Uub defeated Majin Buu not through combat, but through a "ring out" technicality even though he was still in the ring and literally everyone knew where he was (with Buu breaking out a mere microsecond too late). Majin Buu is nowhere near the strength of, say, Buuhan that required Vegito's creation in the first place. Following this we have Goku, who as far as we can tell hasn't progressed much, if at all, since the Buu Saga and has taken on more of a mentor role to Uub. So he's at SS3 levels, which wouldn't last long anyway because of the crazy power drain. Goku himself is vastly weaker than Super Buu even at his maximum SS3 power, which he can't access anyway since he's alive. Finally bringing up the rear we have Vegeta. He doesn't have SS3 that we know of, and has some kind of "trump card" that he's had up his sleeve for years now of DBM's publication. So his power could be anywhere from weaker than SS3 Goku in a classic case of Vegeta deluding himself again, or stronger than SS3 Goku. How much stronger? Who knows? And yet, when Ginyu took control of Bra and went SS2, Vegito didn't just casually mop the floor with him using 50% of his SS1 power, he powered up to SS2 and then even into SS3! So clearly, Bra has much more potential than she's apparently capable of using that Ginyu is just able to use right off the bat because he's evil or something. But even ignoring this, let's frame the argument another way, using the quote you provided. If SS1 Vegito using 50% of his strength fought against Uub, Goku, Vegeta and Cell, do you not think this would be a curbstomp for Vegito? Is there anything indicating he even used 25% of his strength against Buuhan even? Because if it is a curbstomp, congratulations, we now have Bra vs these 4 in the same conditions. If it isn't, then I question Vegito's entire concept as a character in DBM.
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