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Post by Xeno Black on May 18, 2017 6:02:14 GMT
The idea of Zamasu is quite original, but the execution of him has made this arc suffer tremendously along with the useless fan service of Vegito. Toriyama may be the G.O.A.T., but he is shaming his legendary status with these pitiful additions. Perhaps as a kid again I would eat this stuff up with no questions asked, but I cannot accept them as 'good' since the executions are just so out there. Why extend this arc even more is a waste of time for everyone. Being killed by Vegito would be just as good of a ending as anything else.
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Post by Azoth on May 20, 2017 11:13:35 GMT
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Post by Symbiotic on May 20, 2017 13:56:14 GMT
Janemba - another victim of Zamasu's thievery. I see Trunks didn't leave the Ex Machina store empty handed in the manga either.
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Post by Ashanark on May 20, 2017 16:44:05 GMT
I'm thinking all this craziness is due to Toriyama's outline. It's hard to get around a bad story outline, but Toyotaro wins by default simply by not making it worse.
-- Goku got down to blue shirt stage! It's not quite Shirtless Goku Stage (the enemy always dies when Goku goes shirtless) but it's my favorite, and better than the anime, where Goku didn't have a scratch on him besides some scuffs on his cheeks. It makes this seem more of a final battle. -- In Future Trunks we have a great comparison of a straightup Deus Ex Machina and a better foreshadowed one. In the anime, Trunks inexplicably got enough power to tango with Merged Zamasu without even a god form, and two dozen people gave him a Spirit Bomb Sword that could take Zamasu down. This is BS because it 1) gave Trunks his second baloney powerup, 2) gave Trunks his second baloney ability he never learned, and 3) made a stronger-than-Buu-saga Spirit Bomb out of fewer people. While Trunks having healing powers because he was a Kaioshin apprentice is still not foreshadowed as well as I'd like, it's tons better because 1) Trunks is relevant in some way without being powerful, and 2) it shows Toyotaro was planning and building up to this moment many months in advance. Super kudos to him. (Personally, the "Trunks can heal" reveal was my favorite part of this chapter.) -- Vegeta is more Buu-saga-y, admitting Goku is stronger than he is. Of course, the only reason we're having this scene is because Vegeta's development has been rewound for Super--he's relearning lessons he's already learned before--but it was a nice thought. -- Mastered Super Saiyan Blue, huh? That's cool. Even then, Goku could only keep it up for a few moments...This shows Toyotaro is putting more thought into the combat system than Toei, who just says stuff like "oh, he's angry, so he got stronger" and there's no drawbacks. -- Goku and Zamasu punching each other in the face has to be the weirdest yet simultaneously most realistic cross-counter I've ever seen.
But the longer this goes on, the more obvious it is this was just a flat-out bad saga. There's so much redundancy and poor plotting. Why fuse into Vegito if Goku could keep up with Merged Zamasu on his own? Why didn't Vegito do MSSB if Goku could do it and the situation was serious? Just about everything we've seen in this saga, we've seen done before, and better. A team of six people in an empty future universe fighting Zamasu just doesn't have the same stakes as Frieza, Cell, or Buu.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on May 20, 2017 17:32:40 GMT
Man, only if the fights from the manga gets animated... its just like I am saying "please don't suck" for the Tournament of Powr. Yes, TOEI can dish out some good fights in a few episodes but, we need THIS Goku in the anime! When was the last time did Goku ever damaged his clothes or fought in blue shirt/shirtless? I mean when did we see characters get real beaten up or injured no matter how big the blasts would be or craters were formed (any thing!). It's like Piccolo stitched his magical clothes for everyone.
Still saying, Toyotaro is doing some good job here. He can make it fun while keeping the sense in it. Too bad for the story outline though, the manga team has better understanding of the outline than the TOEI writers.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on May 20, 2017 23:31:24 GMT
I have mixed feelings for the characters and/or their abilities.
Zamasu's Portals. His ability to create portals does signify his ascension in his own way of Godhood, rather than the Anime's bullshit Halo of death. His fused powers are so strong he's warping reality. (That does sound stupid if you say it out loud but just roll with it) However it's nothing new and nothing unique for this villain and kinda makes me bored of his moveset that I'm just waiting for him to die/defuse or waiting for something bad to happen to his fusion.
Trunks the Apprentice to the Kaioshins. It makes sense he was undergoing training to the Supreme Kai of his timeline, and makes even more sense how Mai survived than it did in the anime. (and a mini question, is this "Dancing around me for an entire day" the same thing Old Kai did to Gohan by some very slim and minuscule chance? That would be badass Gohan literally ascends to Kaioshin level without knowing it. But enough of my mini sidetrack statement...) His role as the Healer makes more sense but it's still sidelining him from the main action and the idea he was the savior of his timeline when Goku and Vegeta died in his world.
Vegeta's repeated acceptance waiting for Goku is better.
We get it Vegeta, you secretly admire Goku when it's necessary... wait this isn't the shipping section. Vegeta's statement of accepting Goku as the better fighter and the one to be on par against Fused Zamasu is a huge pill to swallow but I think it was necessary to establish this for Trunks since the last time he saw his "past" father was when they were fighting Cell, and at the time Vegeta was still a dick about accepting help.
Goku "sealing" the leaking energy. It's a mastered state, kinda like the original FPSSJ but his body not being able to handle it sounds like a page from the Ki-Disorder from anime's SSB Kaioken. Still a lot better than Goku somehow burning Zamasu's face when he couldn't even handle Z's death grip that ruined his leg and arm.
This chapter is alright but given how we were burned out from the anime's ending, I think it's best if this saga ends in the next chapter.
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Post by Azoth on May 21, 2017 0:24:22 GMT
I have mixed feelings for the characters and/or their abilities. Zamasu's Portals. His ability to create portals does signify his ascension in his own way of Godhood, rather than the Anime's bullshit Halo of death. His fused powers are so strong he's warping reality. (That does sound stupid if you say it out loud but just roll with it) However it's nothing new and nothing unique for this villain and kinda makes me bored of his moveset that I'm just waiting for him to die/defuse or waiting for something bad to happen to his fusion. I've been thinking about how to rework this saga, and Zamasu's moveset is one of them. I'd have him using telekinesis more often, the occasional chunk of katchin, just a bunch of crazy shit you could do with kaioshin magic. The ideal version, for me, is a mesh between anime and manga Zamasu. And I liked the halo. But we've seen this a ton, so unless it plays into the plot later on, it just seems pointless. Yeah, I'm feeling the burnout too. I like Zamasu, but I just want this to end already.
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Post by Son Pan on May 21, 2017 0:26:01 GMT
The chapter was weak to me. It wasn't terrible or even outright bad, but it just dragging on without much in real development.
Strengthens:
Vegeta's characterization is returning to his end of Buu arc setting. He admit Goku is better at him than something and told Trunks to go heal him instead, deeming Goku their best chance at winning. It's a lot better than last month when Vegeta and Goku regressed so much that they refused to fuse when it was their best chance at winning. That was stupid way to prolong a chapter. He even took one for the team.
Supreme Kai continues to be useful. I know a bunch of you hate him for being useless, but I always blamed Toriyama on that rather than the character. If he had been written like this from the start instead of just being around he could have always been a good character. I guess now Toriyama wants to make gods useful again and thankfully that extending to the Supreme Kai.
Goku finding a way to overcome SSB weakness. I prefer a new technique and form to have an initial weakness that is eventually learned to be overcome rather than it being perfect from the gate. I think this could have easily been done with SS3 as well. It still has consequences or quirks that need fixing up to. I prefer this, since it makes for more interesting stories and can create tension. Goku's body feeling pressure of Goku containing all the god ki.
Weaknesses:
Goku vs. Zamasu fight is pointless for the most part and throws off the power scale for no reason. Worse part in all of this is that we could have had this same chapter with Vegetto over Goku. SSB could have just burned out Vegetto's power. He starts getting his ass kicked by Zamasu. The Supreme Kai buy time, while Trunks heals him. Vegetto back at full power then tries the containing SSB aura within his body and defeated Zamasu in this chapter. Power scale does decline as much, gives Vegetto the win, and it ends this battle this chapter.
Trunks' limited healing ability. It creates tension by having Goku and Vegeta be too strong for that type of healing in one go. It just feels like a limit meant to prolong a battle that is already dragging.
Supreme Kai and Apprentice qualifications are growing ever murkier. Zamasu needing to be a Supreme Kai to use the time ring, so he is one technically to use the time ring, but not enough to use the potara. That is sort of confusing, but now he still retains his healing powers too which he loses if he becomes a Supreme Kai. I need a little more info on how this whole Kai promotion works and what being granted temporary status means.
The fight is stalling and getting less entertaining as it goes on. I liked the portal action going on the rest of the fight seemed meh. I love how no one asks if the potara need to recharge or anything. If they can't immediately reuse them again after the hour is up that is fine, but when can they reuse them again? Goku doesn't even suggest Fusion Dance. They have options to fall back on here to fuse. If they can't, fine, but please address them.
All in all it feels like it dragging things out for reasons, but in a really obvious way that makes this feel like filler. Maybe if they had more of the Z-fighters here and it wasn't just us watching Goku and Vegeta back to back that I would feel differently. As it is it like the manga is out of material and is being forced to write filler into it can get new material to end things, but that sounds backwards from how things are done.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on May 21, 2017 16:32:29 GMT
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 21, 2017 16:38:45 GMT
It's sad I know I would be enjoying this a lot if I weren't suffering a serious case of outdated arc fatigue and still gave a shit about Zamasu and Trunks.
If the Manga was released with anticipation as opposed to delayed, would we think of the Anime in similar regard as we are seeing the Manga now? Perhaps even worse assuming they would still do "their individual thing" instead of following a direct outline?
The main problem with the manga boils down to just being tired as shit about Zamasu. Worse think is, I think Chapter 25 will be those remaining 20 minutes Shin mentioned before Zamasu defuses.
I wonder how are they going to use the Zeno button, given that Goku at least seems to be holding his own against Zamasu. I wouldn't say Goku is depicted as stronger than Vegetto. Vegetto was basically curbstomping Zamasu, Goku is just holding his own (with some issues too). If anything Zamasu is depicted as weaker.
The proof of this is Vegetto blue defusing almost instantly but Merged Zamasu (1/2 SSJrose) will stay fused the whole hour. Or maybe in the next chapter he'll get really mad and power up even more causing him to defuse earlier?
One thing I do not like about this saga in general is how constantly they're switching transformations on and off. Theyr'e in SSJblue, receive one frantic punch and untransform, then receive a barrage of bunches of the same magnitude and they do not die. I think they should just make SSJBlue hold out more.
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Post by Griffith on May 22, 2017 6:34:32 GMT
My review of chapter 14, and 15:
Most of chapter 14 is really dull. Comprised of mostly a ginormous exposition dump on the laws of Time Travel, and Zeno. I particularly dislike the Exposition dump on Time Travel considering it took up about three pages for an explanation that could have taken up a panel or two. I'm scratching my head wondering why Tights is even there as she could easily be cut out and nothing of substance would be lost at all.
Future Bulma's death isn't good, at all. However, near the end the chapter definitely picks up with Goku Black's arrival, he's sinister, and intimidating Future Mai's sacrifice to buy Trunks more time is really good, and Trunk's heart break at her apparent death I really like. The barrel of oil catching fire to show off Goku Black, and Trunks is absolute genius, and a great way too start off his reveal.
Chapter 15 is better than Chapter 14 in every way. The brief fight that Trunks had with Goku Black at the start was great, the paneling, and composition was top notch, I also enjoyed how Trunks sword was utilized in the battle. How Trunk's got away from Black is incredibly clever as well, I enjoyed the scene where the Time Machine bursts out.
Karin's and Yajirobe's gag scene is a lot of fun, Future Trunks and Goku's reference to their Dragon Ball fight is annoying, but that's a minor nitpick.
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Post by Axalon on May 22, 2017 10:03:57 GMT
Poor Vegeta man. Once again he's a punching bag while Goku gets his energy restored. It's like seeing the battle with Kid Buu all over again, right down to seeing Vegeta grudgingly admit that Goku's better shortly after defusing with him. I don't think it's the same thing. Supreme Kai seemed like the most shocked person there when the Elder Kai revealed what he could do, meaning he had no idea about it. So while it's likely that it was a similar method of conducting a ritual (dancing in a circle for forever) the effect seems more to impart the ability to heal than a major power boost by unlocking one's potential. Then again this is right after the potara retcon so who knows.
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Post by Son Pan on May 22, 2017 20:22:44 GMT
Man, only if the fights from the manga gets animated... its just like I am saying "please don't suck" for the Tournament of Powr. Yes, TOEI can dish out some good fights in a few episodes but, we need THIS Goku in the anime! When was the last time did Goku ever damaged his clothes or fought in blue shirt/shirtless? I mean when did we see characters get real beaten up or injured no matter how big the blasts would be or craters were formed (any thing!). It's like Piccolo stitched his magical clothes for everyone. Still saying, Toyotaro is doing some good job here. He can make it fun while keeping the sense in it. Too bad for the story outline though, the manga team has better understanding of the outline than the TOEI writers. If Toriyama is giving them outlines (which only have main ideas, but not details) than it would impact Anime team a lot harder than it would a mangka artist. A weekly manga only has to span 15-20 pages. A monthly manga like Dragon Ball Super spans 30 or more pages every month. One person is usually involved with the manga Toyotaro pretty much has all the control and allows him to work with Toriyama on a one on one basis easier than it would a team of writers who have to collaborate with animators, producers, sound guys etc. He also has several weeks to draw the chapter, which probably even gives him more breathing room than it does manga artists who have to get something out in a week (although the extra pages might balance that out). Since the Super anime is a weekly one it means they have to think of ideas on a week to week basis that will cover 20 minutes and fill their episode quota. They're likely given a number of episodes per arc to fill out, which explains why there is pacing problem and why people think they do a lot of filler. This isn't like say the writers were given months in advance to come up with a whole story arc, given down time to work it all out, and release it when they have everything figured out or at least have several arcs and ideas planned out. They are likely what a week or two ahead of the current episode that is released in Japan and Online Services. When you have to worry about all the other details to get one anime episode done they probably don't have luxury to worry about the story as much as we would like them to. I wouldn't be surprised if they are encouraged not to work to hard on the story, since this is Dragon Ball. Their bosses are probably telling them that as long as they have good fights or certain characters in they are good. If Toei had a full story to work from like they did with the original manga Super anime would likely be in a much better position since it would have a full story to follow and not have to worry about making one up to fill 20 minute spot without overusing ideas too fast. For whatever reason the powers that be decided to do an anime and manga at the same time and to use Toriyama's outlines. Toriyama's ideas (which are hit or miss) and an anime team pressed for time and can't go back to him as easily as Toyotaro does then you get a mixed bag of an anime. As we see with the Black arc Toriyama's ideas aren't that great (some are just plain bad) and even the best writer ever can only take bad ideas as far as they can with guidelines they have to follow. Toriyama is likely the weak link in DB content, more so than Toei IMO. You have a weak foundation, of course whatever you build on top of it is going to fall apart.
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Post by Griffith on May 23, 2017 9:07:31 GMT
What I think of Mastered Super Saiyan Blue: Ch. 15, pg. 37.2.-4 Context: As Trunks recovers from sparring Goku: “You surprised me!!! I can’t believe you managed to get this far on your own!!” Trunks: “Ah, well… Even still, it was nothing against Black…” Goku: “I thought it would be a piece of cake, but I guess we’re in trouble…”
Ch. 20, pg. 19.4 Context: after Goku Black transforms into Super Saiyan Rose Goku: “Vegeta. Maybe we should actually start working together now?” Vegeta: “Don’t mess with me. You go take care of the other one! This isn’t gonna get anywhere if he keeps reviving and powering up.”
Ch. 20, pg. 30.1 Context: after Vegeta’s been defeated Trunks: “Goku! We must retreat! If this keeps going, we’re all gonna die!”
Ch. 23, pg. 29.4 Context: after Goku is knocked into a building Goku: “I’ve got no power left…”
Ch. 22, pg. 35.1-2 Context: Goku has just turned Super Saiyan God Trunks: “What?! You’re also gonna use Super Saiyan God?” Goku: “I lost quite a lot of energy using the Mafuba. Going Blue right now won’t work for long. Well, for you, I guess this is more than enough.” Note: He’s talking to Zamasu at the end there.
Ch. 23, pg. 25.5 Context: after Goku is hit by a Klangite cube Zamasu: “Those are Klangite -- the hardest known material in the universe. Can you not even hold your own against mere objects?”
Ch. 23, pg. 26.2 Subject: Goku Trunks: “At this rate, he’s most likely going to lose…”
Ch. 23, pg. 26.3 Subject: Goku Gowasu: “If he could only make his stand for one more hour… However, as far as I can see, that might be beyond all hope…” It's a complete out of nowhere twist. Anyway, my review of chapter 16: My opinion on the flashback that took up nearly half of the chapter isn't all that great. Dabura going through the effort to destroy the already destroyed Z Sword is what I would consider ludicrous. Why would he think to do that? Anyways, Shin's death was really good him dying and finally knowing he had stopped the resurrection of Majin Buu was great. Toyo's art helped with Shin's death as well. It's hard realizing that Mai's still technically an old women in a child's body. Anyways, It's really obvious that Black Goku is Zamasu. When you say that there may be a God who will turn evil, and immediately cut away to a new God who immediately talks about purging unnecessary life. Even then, I like Zamasu them acknowledging that as a fighter he's pretty good, but there's still something wrong with his personality. Also, his cockiness is really entertaining. Of course, it is scarily like Goku Black himself. The cutaway of Dr Brief's cat from the future licking Mai, and that being brought back to the present was clever paneling. Overall, I didn't like the Trunks flashback, but the Zamasu bits were all really good. Heck, his battle with Shin's bodyguard was also really well done. The way he beat him was incredibly inventive, and clever. Overall, I did enjoy the second half of chapter significantly more than the first half. Chapter 17: I really do appreciate the differences in physique and design between the Babari in the chapter. Gowasu making a joke about fusing into a single being with Zamasu, and Zamasu waving it awkwardly off was really entertaining. I do find it interesting that the whole entire saga was all caused by a single Babari's selfishness. If that never had happened than Zamasu would have seen the hooded Babari stop the brutal brawl. I really do like how Toyotaro finished the Zamasu scene he really does look downtrodden and defeated when he realizes that he himself may have the power to stop evil, but as explained by Gowasu by being a Kaio Shin he simply is not allowed to do so. It's a great way to end his scene. On a big if, has he really become evil? Or has Gowasu finally gotten to his apprentice? I simply adore the Mario Kart Gag Scene, Beerus's annoyance at not being in first place, Vegeta bumping into Goku with a fierce cry, and then proceeding to land in a pile of rocks, cursing his bad luck, Beerus's victorious cry as he's in first place, promptly followed by a reaction shot of his stunned face at the Turtle Shell Trunks threw at him. And to top it all off he destroys the video game remote in a fit of anger. There's only two problems to it. One I disliked Trunks winning considering he never did anything funny in this gag scene, however I did like the fact that it was Trunks, and Future Trunks teaming up so he could win. Also, it served no purpose to the plot, and was essentially filler. Trunk's staring peacefully at the Pilaf Gang, and his Present self playing another round of Mario Kart was a nice touch. It's annoying that Goku, and Vegeta arent taking the situation seriously. Beerus's still being annoyed over the fact that he lost the game is still entertaining, and him demanding a barrel of beer from a waitress is and always will be incredibly funny. Kibito being the one blamed by Shin as the one who's Goku Black is something that should have actually happened. Beerus's reaction to Goku calling Zeno, 'Zenny' is once again really great. Honestly, I'd actually say Toyotaro is in his element when writing gags. And Beerus warning Shin to not die on him was fun. Overall, Chapter 17 was an incredible chapter.
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Post by Kirasha on May 26, 2017 9:17:29 GMT
I don't think it's the same thing. Supreme Kai seemed like the most shocked person there when the Elder Kai revealed what he could do, meaning he had no idea about it. So while it's likely that it was a similar method of conducting a ritual (dancing in a circle for forever) the effect seems more to impart the ability to heal than a major power boost by unlocking one's potential. Then again this is right after the potara retcon so who knows. They basically imply that it is the same. It's a day long dancing ritual and Trunks is also significantly stronger (His SSJ2 was able to able to match God Ki-Infused Goku's SSJ3, which is a significant power boost), but if that really is the same thing then...Shin could not possibly know about the dancing ritual. As you say, he's shocked and clearly had no idea about it. Personally said, this is just another convenient ass pull for Trunks, if though at least a bit better explained this time around...but it's still nonsense IMO. Also, about mastering SSJ Blue....wasn't the whole idea about SSJ Blue that ki didn't leak out anymore? I mean, that's what they've constantly told us right?
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Post by Axalon on May 29, 2017 17:07:57 GMT
They basically imply that it is the same. It's a day long dancing ritual and Trunks is also significantly stronger (His SSJ2 was able to able to match God Ki-Infused Goku's SSJ3, which is a significant power boost),but if that really is the same thing then...Shin could not possibly know about the dancing ritual. As you say, he's shocked and clearly had no idea about it. Personally said, this is just another convenient ass pull for Trunks, if though at least a bit better explained this time around...but it's still nonsense IMO. I was under the impression that in the manga, SS3 is still at it's regular power level and then you have the god transformations afterwards. I dunno. We know Trunks gained some strength doing the exact same Z Sword training Gohan did. Then as a SS1 he couldn't even handle Dabura on his own until he got angry enough to unlock SS2, during which Supreme Kai was killed. Doesn't seem like much of a power boost, all things considered. Even if it IS the same technique, then clearly Elder Kai is just able to do it better given what he was able to achieve with Gohan, who in all fairness has more potential to mold anyway. Plus there's again the aforementioned manga scan where he's shocked to hear of its existence. But again, given that a lot of stuff from late DBZ seems to be getting retconned (Elder Kai's imprisonment, Potara time limits, Vegeta knowing about Uub, etc) again I dunno. All in all I'm just about done with DBS. Or at the very least this Zamasu crap, given that so far both the anime and manga versions of this story arc haven't exactly been satisfying.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 7, 2017 0:15:39 GMT
Unless it was retcon the ritual the Old Kai used on Gohan wasn't a Kai ritual, but something he picked up from the witch he fused with. That could have changed. The great evil that locked Old Kai up was retconned into being Beerus.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 7, 2017 1:10:15 GMT
Unless it was retcon the ritual the Old Kai used on Gohan wasn't a Kai ritual, but something he picked up from the witch he fused with. That could have changed. The great evil that locked Old Kai up was retconned into being Beerus. It's possible. All the manga says is that it has something to do with his "psychic powers" being able to draw out the latent potential. If anything I stand by the fact that if there's a retcon going here, and assuming what SK did to Trunks is the same thing as Old Kai did to Gohan, then the retcon is turning the ritual into a generic Kai ritual. There's another scan later on where Goku and Supreme Kai aren't even sure if the ritual is working, but SK has faith in the Old Kai since he seemed so confident that he could pull it off. But given how DB loves to retcon itself, who knows at this point? Once upon a time Goku was just a funny kid with a monkey tail and not a member of a bloodthirsty alien race, and Piccolo was a demon and not a slug man.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 19, 2017 4:31:37 GMT
Mangastream has the chapter up: readms.net/r/dragon_ball_super/025/4358/1Fair warning this doesn't give a whole of answers beyond because its Zamasu. Sadly this fight will continue next chapter. Only Zeno can save them now.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 19, 2017 4:40:37 GMT
- Goku is indeed doing a HAKAI. Did Beerus actually HAKAI anything in the manga?
EDIT: He did indeed HAKAI Present Zamasu in front of Gowasu, but Goku was busy in the future timeline watching Vegeta beat up Black at the time. Will keep skimming through to see if it happens again.I don't think it happens again. Unless it was in an earlier chapter prior to this. Goku somehow was able to duplicate the HAKAI technique without ever having seen or heard about it on-panel. No doubt it'll be explained as Ashanark said earlier, by Goku saying he saw Beerus do it some other time off-panel. - So the potara time limit ran out, but Zamasu can undo the de-fusing through sheer willpower and the fact that they've bonded at the cellular level or some horseshit. - Then Trunks slices him in half and then stabs Black through the chest after they de-fuse. But JUST KIDDING! Now they're both immortal and there's two Fusion Zamasus each as strong as ever. - Then Vegeta tries to turn them into the Hulk or something with a Gamma Burst Flash, whatever that is. - The Zamasus both explode from the strength of Vegeta's blast (somehow), but then all the bloody gibs each regenerate into their own Fusion Zamasu. ...HOW??!? - And then the chapter ends, which means we still have at least one more to go before Zen-Oh saves us from this horribly prolonged story. I honestly don't know which one is worse now, the anime or manga version of this story. Some more edits: - No Vegeta, that's not how immortality works. If he's immortal, he's not going to die. He WILL be able to cope with that. He'll just be really, really tired. - You can also see another divergence in the interpretation of Toriyama's outline between Toei and Toyotaro in this image: Clearly, Toei interpreted an intense energy eating up Goku's stamina as the Kaioken technique, because that's exactly what it does. Toyotaro has instead applied this immense drain to SSB, even in Goku's mastered form of it. Not really a complaint on either the anime or the manga, just an observation. That said, I prefer Toei's take on it in all honesty. If there was ever a time to show that SSB had an immense stamina drain it would've been when we had two SSBs fighting against Golden Frieza, who also had stamina problems. Instead, only Frieza was shown with this issue, and the manga skipped over the events of RoF entirely, probably to avoid having three heavily drained stamina users at the same time since the manga uses it's own interpretation. It also makes the big thing of taunting Frieza for his stamina issues ring hollow, since it turns out SSB has the same issue, just not as drastic.
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