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Post by R I P I R I U S on Jun 19, 2017 6:07:55 GMT
If the manga was ahead of the anime, I would have liked to see the best of both versions animated for the Zamasu arc. Loving the ripped Black Zamasu here!
Quoting Goku from Page 25 - "GIVE ME A FRICKIN' BREAK!"
I agree this is going nuts. So eventually they gonna bring in Zeno and finish it. Since it must be in Toriyama's outline. How else will they end up with 2 Zenos? What I liked here is they go with the explanation on Zamasu being the same being and in a fused state became one. So how can a WHOLE being get defused? Thus 50/50 situation where both conditions are canceling each other out. Well, At least they don't get permanent fusion since one part is not a Kai.
This take on multiple Zamasu's instead of Goku Black from a weird ass fart cloud is acceptable. So apparently Black Zamasu nullified the Potara defusion and now his immortality is just going nuts on regenerating all his limbs into full new bodies.
Well, I am still confused on WHEN did Goku see Beerus use the HAKAI technique? I want to know that to make sense for him to concentrate and all his power at one point and blow Black Zamasu away. Or, maybe he might have noticed why Beerus raises on hand and focuses ki on it? Since Beerus does that a lot many times just to threaten and Goku might have figured that out, which is dumb. To actually even know that.
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Post by Kirasha on Jun 19, 2017 7:30:26 GMT
I'm sure they'll never explain Goku knowing about Hakai in the same manner they never explained how Vegeta got Super Saiyan God.
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Post by Teh Jammah on Jun 19, 2017 16:26:29 GMT
- So the potara time limit ran out, but Zamasu can undo the de-fusing through sheer willpower and the fact that they've bonded at the cellular level or some horseshit. - Then Trunks slices him in half and then stabs Black through the chest after they de-fuse. But JUST KIDDING! Now they're both immortal and there's two Fusion Zamasus each as strong as ever. - The Zamasus both explode from the strength of Vegeta's blast (somehow), but then all the bloody gibs each regenerate into their own Fusion Zamasu. ...HOW??!? I *think* it's something to do with Zamasu fusing with himself, essentially causing the potara magic to go nuts. Because potara fusion essentially fuses both your body and your soul, but while Black & Zamasu have different bodies, their souls are functionally the same thing. So, while you can separate the bodies easily enough, splitting the soul up wouldn't, because they're essentially the same thing. So what I think happened is that the soul of merged Zamasu got imperfectly split and rather than Zamasu Black & Zamasu Immortal getting split properly, each got 1/2 of Black and 1/2 of immortal. The magic went haywire as a result, attemtped to stabilize and resulted in both essentially reforming as a pseudo merged Zamasu. And as a result, this has changed up how his immortal regeneration works, turning it from restores his body whole if blown apart to each part now trying to recreate himself, resulting in the attack of the clones we ended on
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Post by Jason9000 on Jun 19, 2017 17:24:05 GMT
So like...how long has the Goku Black arc been going for now? Since November? I honestly forgot when it started.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 19, 2017 22:23:33 GMT
- So the potara time limit ran out, but Zamasu can undo the de-fusing through sheer willpower and the fact that they've bonded at the cellular level or some horseshit. - Then Trunks slices him in half and then stabs Black through the chest after they de-fuse. But JUST KIDDING! Now they're both immortal and there's two Fusion Zamasus each as strong as ever. - The Zamasus both explode from the strength of Vegeta's blast (somehow), but then all the bloody gibs each regenerate into their own Fusion Zamasu. ...HOW??!? I *think* it's something to do with Zamasu fusing with himself, essentially causing the potara magic to go nuts. Because potara fusion essentially fuses both your body and your soul, but while Black & Zamasu have different bodies, their souls are functionally the same thing. So, while you can separate the bodies easily enough, splitting the soul up wouldn't, because they're essentially the same thing. So what I think happened is that the soul of merged Zamasu got imperfectly split and rather than Zamasu Black & Zamasu Immortal getting split properly, each got 1/2 of Black and 1/2 of immortal. The magic went haywire as a result, attemtped to stabilize and resulted in both essentially reforming as a pseudo merged Zamasu. And as a result, this has changed up how his immortal regeneration works, turning it from restores his body whole if blown apart to each part now trying to recreate himself, resulting in the attack of the clones we ended on See, I wish they'd have just gone with your explanation Teh Jammah. Instead Gowasu first implies it's a soul thing...and then goes even further and marvels that they must be bound at a cellular level. As if the cellular bonding is the more important part as opposed to the soul factor. Just chuck the whole cellular bonding thing out, and just say the potara didn't know what to do with two identical souls fused into one, and is trying to overcompensate for the separation by just cloning Fusion Zamasu each time.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jun 20, 2017 4:57:44 GMT
Finally this arc has come to an en- Wait, what do you mean it's still going? Pros: -Shirtless Zamasu means business and that he "revealed" his Godly self to the mortal he detests so much. -We keep the Zamasu defusion consistent (albeit ignore how he can use the Time Ring) and an explanation for the "mutated" form we got in the anime. Granted Gowasu's explanation isn't that clear but with Teh Jammah's headcanon (is that the right word? Funny I've never had to use it before today) it makes perfect sense. (Thanks man!) -Trunks cutting a Zamasu in half. Either interpretation, it's still pretty badass. -Vegeta's one-liner. All other times are insignificant compared to this specific rage. Nuff Said. And then proceeding to kick Goku after that massive powerup is hilarious to speculate "did Vegeta hold back when he kicked Goku or did he get some relief after saving Goku?" (Lol) Cons: -HOW AND WHEN DID GOKU SEE BEERUS DO A HAKAI? Are we supposed to view the Anime as part of the Manga's storyline? Off-panel shit doesn't excuse Goku's knowledge of the move if in this version the only Hakai... Destruction... (the latter name sucks ass...) ever used was against Zamasu. I would've been fine if the introduction of Kaioken SSB was brought into the manga rather than let a mortal try a "Hakai" that he never saw before. -All the clones, even Black himself becomes the Fused form... why? Maybe create clones of the base form that shapeshift between Black, Zamasu, and Fused Zamasu but jumping straight to Fused Zamasu when said form was on par with Goku's "Focused SSB" is just creating an unbeatable fight that only insists Zeno be summoned. -The regeneration is either a mocking callback to Vegeta failing to kill Majin Buu or the Manga's version of Infinite Zamasu (Apparently the Wiki named him this after this image here) he released. Either way, this is a huge set up that can only be solved with Zeno or another Asspull setup for Goku, Vegeta and Trunks to display. Seriously, Goku with the Hakai and Vegeta with the SS God makes sense compared to the anime in their respective scenes but it's still an asspull because we don't know how the first two were achieved in the first place (Manga's version of course). -It's not over. This entire arc... is not... fucking... over... I don't care if the next chapter is all about Zeno and his time during this conflict, I just want Goku Black arc to fucking end already. This might be me but the cringe is just too strong in this chapter.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 20, 2017 6:18:10 GMT
Seriously, Goku with the Hakai and Vegeta with the SS God makes sense compared to the anime in their respective scenes but it's still an asspull because we don't know how the first two were achieved in the first place (Manga's version of course). EHHHH. This is honestly another situation where I prefer Toei's take on it. Rather than a HAKAI that Goku's never seen before but is somehow able to use, instead we get a Kaioken Kamehameha that breaks both of Goku's arms because he's just trying that hard. Same with SSB Vegeta. I can buy that he never got SSG in the anime because so far you need a ritual to do that (in the anime). He can skip straight to SSB because all SSB is...well it's just SS1 infused with god ki, which he would've gotten by training with Whis for six months. I still prefer not having Trunks randomly transform into some STILL UNEXPLAINED form (seriously Toei, WTF is Super Saiyan Rage), but a random HAKAI from Goku is pushing it a bit. Please Zen-Oh, save us from this story.
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Post by Xeno Black on Jun 20, 2017 6:22:22 GMT
This chapter is worthy to be the successor of DBZ. And that Gamma Burst Flash was phenomenal.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 20, 2017 8:30:24 GMT
I would give this chapter 5/10. The artwork was stunning and the fight itself was pretty good, but I'm just not loving how the power scale keeps spiraling out of control. I prefer SSB needing to be mastered over Goku and Vegeta instantly mastering it right away. That was a good way to both limit how much they could use SSB to keep fights interesting and provided them a goal for later arcs. I'm fine with the idea of Goku finding a way to contain the SSB power to save stamina and the limit that has. It's a good way to balance out the fighters I think. Having said that I'm not a fan of Goku being able to fight on even ground with Black Zamasu using his method. I just don't think it should have made Goku stronger. Since for whatever reason Black Zamasu isn't feeling the effects of SSR to justify his power dropping to give Goku a chance it feels like Goku just magically got stronger with no real explanation.
Also are we supposed to believe that when Goku and Vegeta were training under Whis that they saw him use Beerus' Delete technique? I'm fine with that explanation, but would have been cool to flashback to explain it. I'm genuinely curious about this technique. I just assumed it was just a regular ki attack that Beerus used and he was being cute when he said delete, but it seems like an actual technique with disintegration ability. Goku wanting to learn that technique is in character for him, since he loves to learn new things. I just wish we had gotten a brief flashback or setup early in this arc to setup the basis for Goku trying to learn it. It would have made him successfully using it to defeat Black Zamasu meaningful had that work been put in. What annoys me more is that this arc is so long there was plenty of time for the manga to have done this. Instead of wasting chapters on Goku and Vegeta refusing to work together or fuse to try to beat Zamasu on their own just to draw things out we could have gotten chapter to establish Beerus or Whis showing Goku and Vegeta the Delete technique and Goku trying to learn it or training with it.
That is what annoys me most about the recent chapters. It is starting to feel rushed and dragged out like DBM, but unlike DBM, which can only do a few pages a week and has to rush things along to keep our interest DBS manga has a month to draw and plan everything out. For as long as this arc is more time could have easily been spent on elaborating the story. Considering how fast pace the story was going only to start dragging its heels now it would have been better spent fleshing out Zamasu's character, allowing Trunks to train in the past before he went back to the future, and maybe have more Z-fighters help out, like having Supreme Kai bring along Piccolo, Gohan, Mr. Buu, and Gotenks for the ride. At least with more characters it allows for more interactions, which means hit and run tactics could have been used to have characters talk to each other or provide character development to fill out more pages and give us breaks in between the action to justify it.
Hell, maybe if Black Zamasu succeeded in destroying Future Trunks' Earth and everyone is forced to go back to the main timeline to recover and regroup things could have worked out better. Trunks and Mai are the last of their world anyway. Having them abandon their home to survive works on an emotional level. It does motivate Goku and the gang to start training again or refine their tactics. Gohan and Future Trunks training to defeat Black and Zamasu is a good way to kill two birds with one stone, it help Gohan get back into fighting shape for the next arc and could be a way to have Trunks reach god levels of power in an explainable reason. All in all its not a terrible chapter, but this arc could have been done better to expand on the outline Toriyama made out in better ways. Things just feel like they are dragging now.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jun 20, 2017 8:46:33 GMT
As much criticism the manga is getting now, I believe that if the anime followed its outline, pace and art it would have been far better.
Anime had for the most part even more whacky shit. SSJ Rage, normal Goku managing to hurt Zamasu, while Vegetto failing to do so, etc, spirit sword, cloud Zamasu etc..
Only thing the ANIME did better was maintaining suspense and intrigue in figuring out who Black was, whereas the manga got quickly about it.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 20, 2017 9:32:57 GMT
As much criticism the manga is getting now, I believe that if the anime followed its outline, pace and art it would have been far better. Anime had for the most part even more whacky shit. SSJ Rage, normal Goku managing to hurt Zamasu, while Vegetto failing to do so, etc, spirit sword, cloud Zamasu etc.. Only thing the ANIME did better was maintaining suspense and intrigue in figuring out who Black was, whereas the manga got quickly about it. Honestly I think the best outcome would be to pick and choose the best of both worlds from the manga and anime and blend it all together while diluting the worst parts out from each. Either way there's still garbage no matter which version, but the end result would be the best version yet.
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on Jun 20, 2017 13:34:20 GMT
I reckon the Black Arc is going to conclude very soon. I appreciate how consistent and decent the manga has been in general, but I feel like this saga has capped. It's had some very cool elements that further prolonging it would sour it's conclusion. Although the manga does a FAR better job of installing some dread and terror. If not for the Zeno Button (which i'm calling now, is how they get rid of Zamasu) I would be seriously wondering how on earth they're going to clutch this battle. Goku Black Arc in general Pros: -Gorgeous artwork with so much attention to characters and attacks. Characters actually look like DBZ characters with blood, shirtless Goku and RIPPED Zamasu. -Fight scenes in general are extremely creative and feel like DBZ. SSJG Vegeta and FSSJB Goku's battles were both strategical and magnificent to read. -Prior forms like SSJG are used in a clever way which involves stamina preserving and tactics. Much better than the anime's "I'm just stronger now". -Fused Zamasu in general. No half-immortal nonsense. Fusion time limit is annoying but it's more explained and foreshadowed than the anime. Creative use of portals and gravity not seen since Janemba. -Powerscaling has been mostly consistent. You get a clear read on how powerful everyone is. -No arse-pull Trunks transformation and instead can contribute to the story in a more-explained and effective way IE: Healing. -Story mechanics in general. Trunk's Buu saga, Black usage of Zenkai and pior SSJ forms, SSJB limits are all effective. -Supreme Kai and Gowasu are actually useful and contribute to the story in helpful ways. Cons: -Some minor inconsistencies. SSJ2 Trunks > SSJ2 + SSJ3 Goku. -Black's Zenkai giving him such great power in such little time. His zenkai still able to produce power yet Goku + Vegeta's all capped. -Goku Black's fighting style is kinda generic while in the anime he had some flashy blade attacks. -Would of liked to see more of Goku Black in 1 or 2 more scenes before fusion happened. -Mafuba is still wasted and adds no real value to the saga. -Fusion time for Vegito exists. Anime Vegito had more screen-time and attacks, but Manga Vegito didn't even get touched by Zamasu. So it's a matter of preference. -You don't get to hear Gowasu say ZAMAS in manga form
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jul 18, 2017 16:39:59 GMT
So I won't look like a douche for putting a video of leaks, right?
Edit: Removed Spoiler tags.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 18, 2017 16:46:12 GMT
So I won't look like a douche for putting a video of leaks, right?
Praise Kami...IS IT FINALLY GOING TO BE OVER? !!!!! Meanwhile the goddamn Tournament of Power's already started after a bunch of filler arcs over in anime land.
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Post by Xeno Black on Jul 18, 2017 19:10:50 GMT
So I won't look like a douche for putting a video of leaks, right?
Very interesting video indeed. So Future Zeno ends up being the one to kill off Zamasu in the end. Granted I still wanted either Goku, Vegeta, or Future Trunks to be the true end of Zamasu, but I am glad that the arc is finally ending anyways. And from the looks of it, it appears that the future timeline was not completely destroyed unlike in the anime. If so then that will make this adaptation immensely superior compared to the anime already. At least no alternative future timeline will come into existence now. Or at least that what the available pages indicate. And Toyotaro was definitely watching The Return of Cooler before writing the first couple of pages. It reminded me of this from the movie's material.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 20, 2017 1:51:59 GMT
I hope they keep the Future Zen-Oh destroying the timeline to be honest.
That was vital back when Zen-Oh actually DID something in the anime since it revealed that this wasn't just another Monaka situation all over again, where he was all talk but no bite. That in turn set up the Tournament of Power, with Zen-Oh having the narrative credibility to back up his threats of universal destruction. It let both Goku and the audience show exactly the type of things Zen-Oh could do, and that Beerus and Champa were being absolutely serious in how terrified they were of this little blue dorky guy.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 20, 2017 2:19:21 GMT
I hope they keep the Future Zen-Oh destroying the timeline to be honest. That was vital back when Zen-Oh actually DID something in the anime since it revealed that this wasn't just another Monaka situation all over again, where he was all talk but no bite. That in turn set up the Tournament of Power, with Zen-Oh having the narrative credibility to back up his threats of universal destruction. It let both Goku and the audience show exactly the type of things Zen-Oh could do, and that Beerus and Champa were being absolutely serious in how terrified they were of this little blue dorky guy. Don't you get that when he kills Immortal Zamasu though?
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Post by Axalon on Jul 20, 2017 2:27:47 GMT
I hope they keep the Future Zen-Oh destroying the timeline to be honest. That was vital back when Zen-Oh actually DID something in the anime since it revealed that this wasn't just another Monaka situation all over again, where he was all talk but no bite. That in turn set up the Tournament of Power, with Zen-Oh having the narrative credibility to back up his threats of universal destruction. It let both Goku and the audience show exactly the type of things Zen-Oh could do, and that Beerus and Champa were being absolutely serious in how terrified they were of this little blue dorky guy. Don't you get that when he kills Immortal Zamasu though? Killing one person < Destroying a universe in the blink of an eye AND killing that person. It's all about the scope of things. Zen-Oh just killing Zamasu without collateral damage means he's basically using the energy equivalent of punching him really, really hard. This also confirms beyond a doubt Zen-Oh is a legitimate and instant threat to the universes.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 20, 2017 5:11:06 GMT
One thing I hope this manga does is not tease Mr. Buu being a competitor. Just drop the pretense and get Freeza from the get go.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jul 20, 2017 5:23:59 GMT
One thing I hope this manga does is not tease Mr. Buu being a competitor. Just drop the pretense and get Freeza from the get go. Don't forget the other Super Saiyans in Universe 6 and how they got their forms.
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